EV Digest 4535
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Iota question
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Iota question
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Resistance Insight Pack?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DC/DC
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: CUSHMAN Truck
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Large Sealed Batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zap again
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Large Sealed Batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: Large Sealed Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
15) 15V Supplies for Battery Charging
by Rex Allison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Installing Heater Elements VW Rabbit/Cabriolet
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
by "Marc Michon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re:Silver Bullet Flies tonight AT Woodburn.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 15V Supplies for Battery Charging
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Installing Heater Elements VW Rabbit/Cabriolet
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:27 AM 7/28/2005, you wrote:
John,
The timer must be active only when final phase of charging is
going on, e.g. the current tapered down to 1-2A according to Rich.
1) I agree with Rich that an extra CV cycle now and then is not going
to do any damage to a battery pack.
2) A simple wind-up in-line timer works great. I was extremely foolish
not to install one on the first day I charged my pack. This is especially
true given the very long time I dwell at CV for the NiCads.
3) This "15 minute" thing has me puzzled, however.
The way you typically charge a lead-acid battery is to put out
some constant current (CC) until the voltage reaches some trigger point
(like 14.8 volts, give or take.) You then hold at this voltage until the
current tapers off to ~ 2% of the capacity of the battery. (Like 1 amp on a
YellowTop.)
It takes about a half hour for a YellowTop taper off to 1 amp CV
after charging at 20 amps CC. If you are charging more than one with
regulators involved, the slow-pokes can take much longer than that,
sometimes more than an hour.
The length of time it takes to taper to one amp at CV depends
directly on the current level during the CC portion of the charge. The
higher the CC, the longer it will take the pack to ramp down to 1 amp
during CV.
After a YellowTop settles to one amp, you really should jump back
to 2 amps CC for awhile to fill up the negative plate completely. You
should hold at 2 amps until you have overcharged about 8% of the amp-hrs
you put in during the bulk charge (CC and CV) phases.
If you skip the final 2 amp CC, you are leaving your AGM ~8%
discharged. If you only spend 15 minutes in the CV stage, I'd guess that is
another 5%, (depending on the CC value.)
If you shut off after just 15 minutes of CV, it is likely that you
are leaving the batteries partially discharged, about 10% or so. This will
lead to sulfation and a shortened lifespan.
Between me and John Olson, we have worn out a lot of YellowTops
both on the test bench and commuting in EVs. The charge regime above gives
the very best possible cycle life and capacity. You can do something
different if you like, but the batteries won't last nearly as long or have
nearly as much capacity during their shortened lifespan. You can go by myth
and rumor, or you can use the carefully tested method developed at Optima
Batteries.
I should note that there is limited data on an "interrupted" style
CC finish charge that showed some promise. This is another story in itself.
_ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
\'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
=(___)=
U
Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm getting really close to having my truck back on
the road... Ok I've said that before, but this time...
Any way, I'm hooking up the my Iota DLS-55 and wanted
to verify the connections. I cut the three prong AC
cable off, connect the green wire to the chassis, the
black wire to pack plus and the white wire to pack
minus? Thanks for the info, I'd hate to let the smoke
out right away.
TiM
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You have it right.
Roderick
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV-List-Post" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 PM
Subject: Iota question
I'm getting really close to having my truck back on
the road... Ok I've said that before, but this time...
Any way, I'm hooking up the my Iota DLS-55 and wanted
to verify the connections. I cut the three prong AC
cable off, connect the green wire to the chassis, the
black wire to pack plus and the white wire to pack
minus? Thanks for the info, I'd hate to let the smoke
out right away.
TiM
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> Batt gurus, I need a clearer understanding of this to be able
> to quantify effect in the software - it was requested to adapt
> a BMS for VRLA lead batteries as accurate as possible.
With Peukert and other equations, we have a reasonably good mathematical
description of a battery. The problem is, what do you want to *do* with
the data?
Due to the nature of a battery, you can't describe its state of charge
with a single number. It's multi-dimensional, and affected by many
things. At the very least, you need to two numbers; power and energy.
How much total energy does the battery contain, and at what rate can you
extract it? Time is a third number, because it affects both the power
and energy available.
I've struggled with this problem myself. What sort of "fuel gauge"
indicator should an EV have so even the casual non-technical driver can
understand it? I think it needs to display at least two parameters:
1. Energy remaining
Indicates something proportional to the remaining energy stored in the
battery; watthours, percent state of charge, pack voltage, amphours,
etc.
2. Power available
Indicates something proportional to the amount of power the battery
could deliver if asked to; watts, amps, horsepower, etc. Time is
strongly involved; the peak power available for 1 second is much more
than the power available for 1 minute, for example.
Display
The crossed-meter is about the simplest 2-dimensional display I know of.
Two analog meters, mounted so their pointers overlap. You "read" the
point where the pointers cross. The scale behind them has colors or
other indications of good/fair/bad for that combination of the two
variables. Mark Bruggeman posted a good description of this type of
display at http://www.qsl.net/k5lxp/ev/evgauge/evgauge.html
Or, you can simulate such a display with an X-Y array of LEDs. Suppose
you used a 5x7 matrix LED display, for example. The 5 vertical dots
could represent energy remaining (say 0%, 25%, 50%, 75%, and 100% SOC).
The 7 horizontal dots represent power (say 5, 10, 20, 50, 100, 200, and
500 battery amps).
Your controller lights a number of LEDs to define a graph of the
available power and energy at the battery's present state of charge.
Labelling the axes "Range" and "Speed" provides a rough indication of
what it means to a non-technical driver. The more LEDs lit, the more
range and speed are available. The top right corner is dark because the
faster you drive, the less range you will get.
---------
R | oooo | Display with a full charge. Range drops a little
A | oooooo | with speed.
N | ooooooo |
G | ooooooo |
E | ooooooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | oo | As you drive, the top right corner grows.
A | oooo | This indicates that your range at high speeds
N | oooooo | is dropping, but you still have lots of range
G | ooooooo | at low speeds.
E | ooooooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Remaining range is now falling, no matter how
A | oo | slow you drive. Top speed is still not limited.
N | oooo |
G | oooooo |
E | ooooooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Half your charge is used up. You could still
A | | turn around and drive all the way home, but at
N | oo | very low speed. Top speed is also now being
G | oooo | reduced because batteries can no longer supply
E | oooooo | a sustained high current.
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Batteries nearly dead. You're down to half speed
A | | and most of your range is used up.
N | |
G | oo |
E | oooo |
---------
SPEED
---------
R | | Dead! The only way you can keep driving is at
A | | very low speed.
N | |
G | |
E | o |
---------
SPEED
The "slope" of the cut-off corner is going to change depending on the
battery type, condition, and temperature. With cold lead-acids, the
slope would be much steeper, like this:
---------
R | o | Plenty of range, but very limited speed due to
A | oo | cold batteries with lots of internal resistance.
N | ooo |
G | oooo |
E | ooooo |
---------
SPEED
I suppose you could use a 2-color LED, or blink them for additional
warning, or even to spell out messages. But the basic idea is a display
that even a novice could get the general idea of what it means by trial
and error.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Attached a plot of Voltage and Current over a trip in the
older model Prius (orange - blue - brown graph)
You can see that the total pack voltage sags by almost 5V for 10A
draw, so the internal resistance is close to 1/2 ohm.
The plot and its background story is found at
http://home.earthlink.net/~graham1/Prius/Measure/BatIntRes.htm
Graham is the designer of the "Mini-scanner" which will display
many hidden system values communicated between the Prius computers
and for that he is famous in (some) Prius circles.
FYI: the older Prius' battery is 38 individual NiMH modules of
7.2V each - nominal pack voltage 38 x 7.2 = 273.6V
Note that this is 228 cells of 1.2V so it has 2 mOhm per cell!
Hope this clarifies,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of David Dymaxion
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:23 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Resistance Insight Pack?
Excellent, thanks, that 10 kW number was off, 6 kW is much more
believable. That would give an internal resistance of about 7.2
milliohms per cell.
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You're supposed to get a maximum of 6hp from the insight assist.
> So,
> the pack is delivering probably more like 6kW in its standard
> usage.
> The Insight draws a maximum current of about 75A, however people
> have
> experimentally managed to turn this up to 100A without having an
> immediate meltdown..
>
> I don't know what the voltage sag or internal resistance actually
> is
> though, sorry.
>
>
> On 7/28/05, David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'm intrigued by the thought of using batteries from wrecked
> hybrids
> > (google on "Electric7" and look at the cached page,
> > http://www.electric7.com seems to be down).
> >
> > I saw a couple of web pages that say the Insight battery pack has
> > these specs:
> >
> > 120 D cell Nimh
> > 6.5 Ahr
> > 70 Amps
> > 10 kW
> > 144 V
> >
> > So if I do the simple math, 144 V * 70 A = 10.08 kW
> >
> > That would mean these batteries have almost no sag and almost
> zero
> > internal resistance! So apparently 10 kW is a nominal number?
> Does
> > anyone have better numbers? So what is the internal resistance
> for
> > these? Thanks for any info!
> >
> > Sign me "Forever looking for the cheap miracle battery"
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have exactly that problem with my vehicle. It has daytime running lights
which obviously are not going to be practical. I merely tracked down the
circuit and removed the fuse. This left the other lights working normally.
In some states now there is a requirement that lights and wipers be on at
the same time, so I will work a fix on that when I get around to it. Wish
every problem was as easy to address!
Mark Ward
"ElectroSaab"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, July 18, 2005 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: DC/DC
It is not a replacement but compliment - the purpose of day time
running lights is to make a car more visible (which supposedly is
considered safer), not to illuminate the road. So high brightness
low luminosity light source like LEDs are very adequate
for it - you won't see anything illuminated by them, but everyone
will sure see *you*, which is the purpose.
The ICEs already have headlights and while it's waste to run them
in day time, it is cheaper than come up with extra lights, so
mfrs just use that. Some newer car's wiring is modified that you
can't even turn it off. My mom's VW Jetta is that way.
Victor
Nick Viera wrote:
Maybe some LED headlights for "city driving" and be able to switch
from those to the drainers if more light is needed..
I'm not convinced that LEDs would be good for headlight replacement.
Seems to me that appropriately sized emitters would also consume quite a
bit of power, not to mention being pretty expensive. However, I have
converted most of the other exterior lighting to LEDs already...
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy folks,
Trojan (1-800-423-6569) <Jim Drizos eng at the time in 97'> and US battery
(1-800-742-5877) Nawaz Qureshi eng did some tests as they have a vested
interest in making their batteries last longer so check with them for data.
Cycling sulfated batteries helps whether pulsed or not but trying to
rejuvenate a dead battery that is used up (plate material is gone) is not
possible. In normal use (which has always been my experience since
batteries are expensive and I use them regularly until dead) they are not
effective.
Regards, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Trough" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:54 PM
Subject: Re: Battery de-sulfation
> > In short does anybody have any empirical evidence that it either works
> > or doesn't work?
>
> Search the archive.
>
> Some (Neon John and others) have asserted anecdotal success with pulse
> based products but no real empirical data. Some believe it works.
>
> Others (Mark Hanson, Lee, and some more) assert that their testing of
> pulse products showed NO gains whatsoever and a say that a good charger
> will resurrect a battery just as well. Some believe it is pure snake
> oil.
>
> I don't recall seeing any double blind tests with equivalently and
> intentionally sulphated batteries.
>
> -Ken Trough
> Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
> http://visforvoltage.com
> AIM - ktrough
> FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the info. I found one at lunch yesterday, (the guy wanted $8k)
but saw one in Miami junked for a few hundred. I felt the 3 drum brakes and
they appeared to be substantial at 8" diameter (unlike the whimpy 4-wheel
version). He thought it would be fine at 45mph which he said it gets used
at but probably not 55mph. Cushman said they stopped making the larger
on-road vehicles in 2000 for liability reasons (maybe cops were tipping over
in hot pursuit at 45mph). It doesn't make any sense why they would make the
on road with bigger brakes/suspension a 3-wheel and make the 4-wheel a
glorified golf cart. You would think that it would be the other way around.
Do you know the vehicle weight? I assume it would be more efficient than a
Metro conversion I did with 14 batts. I was thinking 10 T-105's in this
thing under the rear bed would probably work. Under the bench seat would be
more centered for batteries and is usually generally better but due to the
3-wheel (turning, fallover problem) keeping the batteries more rearward
would probably be more conducive to longevity.
Have a renewable energy day,
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:18 PM
Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> I've had experience driving a Cushman three-wheeled metermaidmobile.
> It could indeed make an interesting electric vehicle conversion for short
> runs at moderate speeds. Its main shortcoming in my never so humble
> opinion is that it only has three wheels. I won't get into the three
wheels
> versus four wheels debate which has been beaten to death here before.
> I'll just say that I hate 3- wheeled vehicles; two wheels and four wheels
> are great but not three.
>
> The metermaidmobiles I'm familiar with have a two-cylinder air-cooled
> engine and 3-speed manual transmission under the seat. Removing the
> infernal combustion engine and coupling an electric motor to the
> transmission should be rather straightforward.
>
> I have seen several Cushman 4-wheel electric scooters. They are indeed
> completely different than the 3-wheelers. I've never driven a 4-wheeler
> electric Cushman but I expect they would perform much like the golf
> carts they resemble.
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:43 AM
> Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
>
>
> >I found a roadworthy Cushman police vehicle at lunch at a Cushman parts
> > place suitable for a lightweight conversion. It turns out the *3-wheel*
> > versions made for meter maids had *much bigger* brakes, tires and a
decent
> > suspension. The 4-wheels are glorified golf carts with a max legal
speed
> > of
> > 20mph, (teeny brakes, poor suspension, king-pin go-cart steering).
> > Cushman
> > apparently went back to selling just golf cart stuff 5 years ago they
said
> > due to liability reasons but the roadworthy 45mph police vehicles looked
> > like a possibility and the DMV lady said it was in her system to get a
> > tag.
> > He wanted $8k for his but now I know what tolook for with a lunched
> > engine.
> > Not as cool as a Smart car but it's here, lightweight and would be
energy
> > efficient (now that my electric rates went up 58% last month, 8c to
12.66c
> > per kWh.
> > Mark
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 AM
> > Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> >
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > Howdy Folk's
> >> >
> >> > I was curious if anyone has converted a Cushman truck and was able to
> > get
> >> > 45mph with good handling and brakes. Looking at some photos of one
on
> >> > http://www.laidbackracing.com/files/try.jpg it looks awfully like a
> >> > Citi-Car which had terrible handling from a golf cart. Are there
> >> > aftermarket modifications that can be done to widen the wheel base?
> >> Bigger
> >> > wheels? Better brakes? Front end stability?
> >> >
> >> > How are the brakes, are they 4-wheel drum or just a tranny pincher?
> >> > ----- Original Message -----
> >> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > To: <[email protected]>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:18 AM
> >> > Subject: CUSHMAN tags
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > I think they might make an ideal EV if I could get it street
legal.
> >> > Thanks, Mark
> >> > >
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There might be some issues with the larger Optima. Has anyone actully
worked with the stock larger Optimas? They might not be as robust as their
smaller counterparts. Lawrence Rhodes.........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: Batteries
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
Have a question on Optima Batteries. If I decide to go with these,
is there any reason(s) not to go with the larger Optima D31 versus
D34 batteries as long as space and weight aren't a problem?
The extra lead should give me a little more range.
Yes, you can use either size. To a first approximation, the same weight
of both will have the same range. Which one you pick depends on
availability, price, which ones fit better in your battery space, and
whether you prefer lower voltage and higher current, or higher voltage
and lower current.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Not price. Dependability. I'm not sure these batteries will hold up like
the smaller version. Lawrence Rhodes...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Eric Poulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:12 AM
Subject: Re: Large Sealed Batteries
I think his concern was the price.
Pestka, Dennis J wrote:
Could you explain why the Optima Group 31 batteries aren't a good option?
I was considering them for my truck.
Thanks;
Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 27,
2005 6:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that
doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The coil voltage is ok. I am only concerned with what will work & what is
safe. If I have to upgrade what is the best value in a contactor? Kilovac?
Lawrence Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 3:10 PM
Subject: Re: Albright/Curtis SW200A - 16 144v use?
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
On the contactor it says 120v. I suspect I can get away with more.
Are the Curtis/Albright different from the Albright & what does the
-16 stand for?
I was reading straight from an Albright data sheet. As I said, the
"120v" is the maximum rating; what you would see with a 96vdc battery
pack immediately after charging. It is rated 200 amps continuous per
contact.
The dash numbers define the specific options a customer ordered.
The coil can be wound for anything from 12vdc to 240vdc. Usually, it
will be 12v or whatever the customer's pack voltage is.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is the Kitten as light as the 3wheel Reliant? Just seems that the Reliant
is bigger and lighter. Seats 4. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Zap again
On 7/28/05, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd rather convert a Robin Reliant. I have a line on one in Northern
California. LR..........
Nah, Reliant Kitten is better, see my webpage :)
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 4:05 AM
Subject: Zap again
> ZAP TRIO Electric Vehicle
>
> The fun, compact and affordable electric vehicle.
> Approximate MSRP $8,995. Estimated availability October, 2005.
>
> http://www.zapworld.com/cars/trio.asp
>
> How cute! And a good price. Anyone got any more info, like *if it'll
> ever see the light of day* ? :)
>
> --
>
> EVan
> http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm trying to get reliabilty(like small Exides and Optimas) in addition to a
specifically set voltage and weight. You can use a 13battery pack in a
Datsun 1200 but that pack won't give much range in a larger EV. So to save
money on a controller and batteries & regulators bigger batteries are an
option for more range at an affordable price. Question is what larger
battery will hold up. No point in doing it if there are failures. I would
then just use more smaller batteries and a more expensive controller.
Lawrence Rhodes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 11:14 AM
Subject: RE: Large Sealed Batteries
Lawrence, does it need to be AGM? Can Gel do? If so, check out the Deka
batteries. I think they may also have an aggresively priced AGM too.
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: July 27, 2005 4:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that
doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just recently (yesterday) got a quote from a local Deka distributor. The
8G24M is $102.45 with turn in and the 8G27M is $123 with turn in. That
works out to only $1.38 per amp hour on the group 24 and $1.43 for the group
27 batteries. For a long life gel cell these are pretty cost effective
aren't they?
-----Original Message-----
From: Don Cameron [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 1:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Large Sealed Batteries
Lawrence, does it need to be AGM? Can Gel do? If so, check out the Deka
batteries. I think they may also have an aggresively priced AGM too.
http://www.eastpenn-deka.com/
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: July 27, 2005 4:14 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Large Sealed Batteries
Does there exist a Group 31 Sealed Lead Acid battery which is the equal of
Exides or Optimas. I have seen some Trojans. Is there a Hawker that doesn't
cost an arm and a leg? Looking for around 60 pounds. Optimas(60 pound
group 31) don't seem to be a good option. What's left?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Has anyone used individual 15V power supplies for
charging AGMs or Flooded batteries? What are the
disadvantages? It seems that balancers and a bulk
charger is the most common method? If this is an old
thread could someone point me two this previous
discussion?
Thanks,
Rex
__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail - Find what you need with new enhanced search.
http://info.mail.yahoo.com/mail_250
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought I would be proactive and I would like to
replace the Russco heater in my VW Cabriolet with
ceramic heaters while it is still summer. How do I
set this up? I can get the stock heater core out so
that is easy. How do I wire up the heaters?
Has anyone on the list done this specifically for the
VW?
Thanks
Joel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The coil voltage is ok. I am only concerned with what will work
> & what is safe. If I have to upgrade what is the best value in a
> contactor? Kilovac?
Ok, if you want my opinion... One Albright SW200 will not safely switch
a 144v pack. If you have a 144v pack, use at least two SW200's in
series, both switched at the same time.
Or you can use a single Kilovac; the EV200 is cheaper, but weaker (won't
handle as much current as the Albright SW200). The EV250 has better
current ratings, but costs more than two Albright SW200's. Also, the
Kilovacs do not have replaceable contacts.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> Cycling sulfated batteries helps whether pulsed or not, but trying
> to rejuvenate a dead battery that is used up (plate material is
> gone) is not possible. In normal use (which has always been my
> experience since batteries are expensive and I use them regularly
> until dead) they are not effective.
Thanks Mark. An excellent summary.
If you don't abuse your batteries, the pulsers seem worthless. I don't
abuse my batteries, and when I tested pulses, they had no effect.
If you *do* abuse your batteries, maybe the pulsers help. Even then, I
think it is more likely that *any* resumption of proper care will
improve their condition.
If you let a battery sit around for 2 years, it will be so dead that it
won't charge with a normal charger. You need to apply a higher voltage
for a longer time. The pulsers may do this; but so will a low-current
high-voltage trickle charge (like an unregulated wall wart).
Another problem with old batteries is that the cells are likely to have
significantly different amphour capacities. So, they tend to wander
apart and be at different states of charge. A typical vehicle charging
system does a poor job of equalizing; it doesn't reach a high enough
voltage for long enough to bring the weakest cell up to "full". So the
battery appears to have low amphour capacity.
If you just charge it for a couple hours at 2-4% of its amphour
capacity, the weak cells finally have time to reach full charge. The
battery has an amazing increase in capacity.
But if you put it right back on that weak (under)charging system, the
weak cell will wander right back down. A pulser may also help solve this
problem; but so would any charger that properly equalizes.
Ken Trough wrote:
>> In short does anybody have any empirical evidence that it either
>> works or doesn't work?
I posted my results several months ago, on work I did a couple years ago
with the Home Power pulser. Briefly, I bought a set of ten used 12v
marine batteries that were several years old and down to less than half
capacity. They had low capacity, high internal resistance, and a low
end-of-charge voltage and high end-of-charge current.
I used normal R&R techniques, and they improved about 2:1 (but still
only about half of normal). If left sitting a month, they faded right
back to where they were.
I used the pulser on some, nothing on others (the control group), and
various other R&R techniques on the rest. The results were that doing
nothing was the worst, and that any form of charging improved them. The
pulser by itself had no effect; the pulser with the trickle charger
helped, but no more than the trickle charger by itself. The greatest
benefit was a hard equalizing charge, followed by repetitive cycling
(for instance, using the battery every day). When I stopped testing and
using them, they all soon fell back to their poor performance.
>> I don't recall seeing any double blind tests with equivalently and
>> intentionally sulphated batteries.
I didn't do a double-blind test (I knew which battery had which
treatment). But I *did* test multiple batteries that started out in the
same condition, some with, and some without the devices under test.
This is what is missing in most casual testing. A person tests exactly
one battery, and makes few or no quantitative measurements. There is no
way to know if the device worked, or if the test process itselfs was
responsible for the improvement (just cycling a battery increases its
capacity, even with no special device). You can't tell what different
devices would have done, because you've altered the only test sample you
have by making the tests.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Myles or Shawn
I want to put cooling fan on my etek in motorcycle
forced air 4.72" dia fan at brush cover end of perferated
cap
will work as well sucking air out?
would suck air through motor out brush cap would work as well as blowin in
through brush cap and out slots on outside dia. of motor?
a 88cfm or 130 cfm enough air?
or need more powerfull fan?
runing in this 108 degree tempature i can use all the cooling i can get
Marco
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 09, 2005 1:34 PM
Subject: RE: Current limit!!!! Re: Advancing ETEK motors
> Shawn suggested:
>
> > Not just forced air, but good air flow around the motor is also very
> > important. Keeping the motor more exposed to allow the ambient heat to
> > dissipate quickly helps.
>
> Noone can argue that keeping the shell cool is a good idea, but forcing
air
> THRU the motor is essential if it's drawing more than 50amps steady. And
> cooling the external case will do little to keep the ETEK from thermal
> runaway if you're in the 100amp+ range. Even if you blow air at the case
> slits, the air will go around the motor before it goes thru it. So sure,
> you may cool the case, but the armature and commutator overheat and the
> motor fries. Force cooling air thru the armature where the heat gets
> generated (easy to do with the ETEK) and the heat never gets to the case
in
> the first place---I can run my ETEK at 36v with 150amps continuous with
the
> case only barely getting warm inside an outboard motor cowling on my boat.
> Meanwhile, the cooling exhaust temperature is a nice hand-warming
> temperature. Only thing I can do better is to replace the non-perforated
> brush cap with the perforated one to help keep them cool.
>
> Here's a question: which way is it best to blow the air thru the ETEK?
From
> the brush end or TO the brush end? With my outboard boat motor
> installation, air flow was initially from top-bottom (i.e. from the brush
> end down). Later I changed the airflow direction to blow axially up thru
> the motor towards the brushes. This ensured pulling cooler air from the
> bottom of the outboard, up thru the motor, thru the fan and up towards the
> cowling exhaust port. But there was nothing ensuring the air would
exhaust
> thru that port, and instead was allowed to recirculate in my motor cowling
> (which slowly got warmer and warmer). This led to the addition of an
> exhaust plenum at the top of the motor cowling above the fan----motor and
> motor case then stayed cool.
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why on Earth would we Want to get rid of that killer sound?????
Oh save wasted watts, and keep it quite.
I doubt that anybody is going to let us drill holes in those belts....
But good idea... Thanks
RACE MODE ON!!!
Oh yea John's trusted Mac hickuped... and he wanted me to tell the
list that it's all ON for tonight.
I have the Drag radials, and I will be leaving for Portland as soon as I
get off this Damn PC.
We will be at the Woodburn drag strip for the Fridaynight Drags . Gates open
at 3pm, If we are lucky we might be on site by 6 pm.
I have 250 miles to run, and I have to Gas up the Ranger... and load the
equipment.
Jim Coate will be there, Plasma Boy Tim and Jim, and Me(Madman).
We have some shake down tuning... and Raptor adjustments to make... We
should have a good time...
Lets not break something.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
In Madman Race Mode.... Helping others.. while my toys sit....unbroken.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee-
If two SW200's are used, do they have to be immediately adjacent to each
other electrically to have the 2x voltage capacity, or could one be at
the "top" of the pack and the second one be located mid-pack (at the 72V
point) with the same effect?
thanks,
Andrew
Lee Hart wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The coil voltage is ok. I am only concerned with what will work
& what is safe. If I have to upgrade what is the best value in a
contactor? Kilovac?
Ok, if you want my opinion... One Albright SW200 will not safely switch
a 144v pack. If you have a 144v pack, use at least two SW200's in
series, both switched at the same time.
Or you can use a single Kilovac; the EV200 is cheaper, but weaker (won't
handle as much current as the Albright SW200). The EV250 has better
current ratings, but costs more than two Albright SW200's. Also, the
Kilovacs do not have replaceable contacts.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rex Allison wrote:
> Has anyone used individual 15V power supplies for
> charging AGMs or Flooded batteries? What are the
> disadvantages? It seems that balancers and a bulk
> charger is the most common method? If this is an old
> thread could someone point me two this previous
> discussion?
Yes, I've done it and so have others. Check the archives for "modular
charger" to find more about them.
The main advantages are that it's a modular system (easy to shrink and
grow to suit your pack), and it provides individual attention to each
battery (automatically keeps them balanced).
The usual disadvantages are that most small power supplies are cheaply
made and inefficient. So, they produce a lot of heat and frequently
fail. If you don't have some method to confirm that all batteries did in
fact charge correctly, you can drive off with a dead battery and destroy
it.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Silverman wrote:
> I would like to replace the Russco heater in my VW Cabriolet with
> ceramic heaters while it is still summer. How do I set this up?
> I can get the stock heater core out so that is easy. How do I
> wire up the heaters?
Is there a problem with the Russco? Why are you replacing it?
Ceramic heaters usually deliver much less heat than their ratings imply.
When hot, their resistance rises, so they draw less current and produce
correspondingly less heat. In our Minnesota winters, I found a single
ceramic heater was inadequate; you will almost certainly need two.
I believe you have a 96v system? If so, the cheap 120v ceramic elements
will be even more feeble. You would need the purpose-built ones from
Randy Holmquist or something equivalent.
Switching the ceramic heater is pretty much the same as your Russco; a
high voltage DC relay turns it on/off. There is generally no thermostat
on the ceramics; they just stay on because their resistance
automatically changes with temperature so they don't burn up.
--
Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has! -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
