EV Digest 4542
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and CUSHMAN Truck
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Racing 3wheels, Re: 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and CUSHMAN
Truck
by Aaron NMLUG-EV <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Newby: that EV grin, controller comments, an' Stuff
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Tire Recommendations
by Joel Silverman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Deka dominator gel batteries
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: G'day ... thinking about Electric Motorcycles
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Ampabout East, an' Stuff
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: G'day ... thinking about Electric Motorcycles
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's battery evaluation and production
cost summary
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC Inverter question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Atkinson Cycle Genset/Range Extender?
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Cost of using wide tires
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) DCP T-Rex and DC/DC in closed space?
by Ben Apollonio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Insight battery pic / Thunder Sky question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Portland area EV Dinner
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Finding Parts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: CalCars Teach Lead Ron Gremban's ( that's why Li isn't in the
report, yet )
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Ampabout East, an' Stuff
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Tubes
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
23) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: DCP T-Rex and DC/DC in closed space?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) N-wheel vehicle stability
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I think I'll put my EV Geo Tracker up for sale in EValbum and then start on
a conversion on this since I don't see any Kewets for sale and with a start
weight of 1370 lbs for the Cushman, that would probably make a lightweight
ev at 250wh per mile. Right now I'm at 560 wh per mile measured during
charge..
Mark Moroze 1-800-848-1636 at Cushman said that the late 90's 3-wheel meter
maids had more automotive type (larger) brakes and suspension parts as well
the ZEV model. I found my photo from Orlando EVS, 98 or 99' which has a
Cushman patrol vehicle with 72V of 6V T-145's placed neatly in one box
directly behind the cab and low. I don't know if it meets Jerry's
requirements below of having the weight placed equally on all three wheels
as it looked like the batteries were more directly placed over the rear end
(70lbs x 12 = 800). Probably due to the front steering wheel which couldn't
tolerate much additional weight.
It had a GE motor with field weakening, no tranny. I wonder if using the
3-speed tranny would be better or not since I have some steep hills? Model
898 484 was the ZEV model to ask for at the Cushman manual/schematic
printers 1-800-362-8832 to see how they made and wired the ZEV.
Have a nice day, Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Friday, July 29, 2005 11:16 PM
Subject: 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and CUSHMAN Truck
>
> Hi Tom and All,
>
> --- Tom Shay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I've had experience driving a Cushman three-wheeled
> > metermaidmobile.
> > It could indeed make an interesting electric vehicle
> > conversion for short
> > runs at moderate speeds. Its main shortcoming in my
> > never so humble
> > opinion is that it only has three wheels. I won't
>
> A 3wh ICE and an EV version are 2 completely
> different animals.
> While you are correct about high CG 3wh vehicles,
> an EV version has a CG about 1' lower!! Thus giving
> much better handling. In the E woody and my future 3wh
> EV the CG is about 13-14", les tham most sportscars so
> if it is place correctly 1/3 inside the 2 wheels, a
> 3wh EV can handle really well.
> If it is a 2f1r 3wh EV designed correctly, can
> even outhandle the best sportscars!
> But designed wrong with high and not equal weight
> on each wheel, can kill!!
> So it's not if it has 3wheels, but how well it's
> designed!
> Because of the ability of the battery pack weight
> to greatly lower, correctly place the CG, 3wheels and
> EV's are made for each other making each other better.
> The batts improve handling and 3wheels keeps it
> light!!
> Make sure you get a title before buying one of
> these as in most states it's almost impossible to get
> one if it doesn't come with it.
>
> > get into the three wheels
> > versus four wheels debate which has been beaten to
> > death here before.
> > I'll just say that I hate 3- wheeled vehicles; two
> > wheels and four wheels
> > are great but not three.
> >
> > The metermaidmobiles I'm familiar with have a
> > two-cylinder air-cooled
> > engine and 3-speed manual transmission under the
> > seat. Removing the
> > infernal combustion engine and coupling an electric
> > motor to the
> > transmission should be rather straightforward.
>
> Or just pop in a high powered GC transaxle like
> the one used in 8-12 pass CG's, Citi-cars, Commuta
> Vans as it will bolt right in!! These are the most
> reliable EV drives available!!
> Maybe get one with a little more width or offset
> rims to get better cornering, stability.
> While I wouldn't think the Cushman was ideal, as
> an EV it can be a nice, safe, inexpensive errand
> runner. I'd love to have one.
> In fact I just built a trike pickup similar except
> it doesn't have a roof. An article about building
> inexpensive EV's of which it is the first, will be
> published shortly in ESSN newsletter online in the
> next issue.
> HTH's,
> Jerry Dycus
> >
> > I have seen several Cushman 4-wheel electric
> > scooters. They are indeed
> > completely different than the 3-wheelers. I've
> > never driven a 4-wheeler
> > electric Cushman but I expect they would perform
> > much like the golf
> > carts they resemble.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 10:43 AM
> > Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> >
> >
> > >I found a roadworthy Cushman police vehicle at
> > lunch at a Cushman parts
> > > place suitable for a lightweight conversion. It
> > turns out the *3-wheel*
> > > versions made for meter maids had *much bigger*
> > brakes, tires and a decent
> > > suspension. The 4-wheels are glorified golf carts
> > with a max legal speed
> > > of
> > > 20mph, (teeny brakes, poor suspension, king-pin
> > go-cart steering).
> > > Cushman
> > > apparently went back to selling just golf cart
> > stuff 5 years ago they said
> > > due to liability reasons but the roadworthy 45mph
> > police vehicles looked
> > > like a possibility and the DMV lady said it was in
> > her system to get a
> > > tag.
> > > He wanted $8k for his but now I know what tolook
> > for with a lunched
> > > engine.
> > > Not as cool as a Smart car but it's here,
> > lightweight and would be energy
> > > efficient (now that my electric rates went up 58%
> > last month, 8c to 12.66c
> > > per kWh.
> > > Mark
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > > Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2005 9:58 AM
> > > Subject: Re: CUSHMAN Truck
> > >
> > >
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Howdy Folk's
> > >> >
> > >> > I was curious if anyone has converted a Cushman
> > truck and was able to
> > > get
> > >> > 45mph with good handling and brakes. Looking
> > at some photos of one on
> > >> > http://www.laidbackracing.com/files/try.jpg it
> > looks awfully like a
> > >> > Citi-Car which had terrible handling from a
> > golf cart. Are there
> > >> > aftermarket modifications that can be done to
> > widen the wheel base?
> > >> Bigger
> > >> > wheels? Better brakes? Front end stability?
> > >> >
> > >> > How are the brakes, are they 4-wheel drum or
> > just a tranny pincher?
> > >> > ----- Original Message -----
> > >> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > >> > Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2005 9:18 AM
> > >> > Subject: CUSHMAN tags
> > >> >
> > >> >
> > >> > > I think they might make an ideal EV if I
> > could get it street legal.
> > >> > Thanks, Mark
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >> > >
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2005-08-01 at 04:34, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
> > Leaning three wheelers are (IMHO) the most
> >> promissing.
> >
> > tadpole or delta?
>
> Yes. Tilting illiminates most of the advantages of one over the other.
>
> Personally I like Delta because of the advantages it offers for laminar
> flow body designs.
I have a tadpole recumbent tricycle. The best recumbent trikes
are all tadpoles. They corner great.
I would also think that a tadpole could be more aerodynamic.
It is more natural to have a long, thin tail with a single
rear wheel.
How does the delta shape make it easier to keep the
flow laminar?
If we are trying to keep things a simple as possible...
can a fixed wheel, no lean delta corner as well as a tadpole,
assuming each has done the best they can with the placement
of the CG?
aaron
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 12:50 AM
Subject: RE: Newby: that EV grin
> A contactor controller has no current limit, except that imposed by the
> wiring. That should make the car go fast, as long as you don't mind
> jarring, jerky acceleration. <g>
> Hi All;
For sure! Don't EVen think of not using a clutch, to soften things up a
bit. Drove my Rabbit with a 3 speed homemade contacter setup for years.
Being used to standard trannies I used the clutch while starting off and
shifting gears, as I had been used to since I was about 10 and learning on a
stick shift. Big kid, could reach the pedals!With the EV ya UPSHIFT to go
faster.
> That is, until you finish off your marine batteries from the huge
currents.
>
> Tests of a Comuta-Van with a contactor controller 20+ years ago showed
peak
> currents in excess of 1300 amps.
>
Same specs with the Citi Cars, thats why they burned up brush leads,
cables and battery posts! Like starting on hills, and stuff like TRYing to
keep up with leasurly traffic<g>!
> Unless you have a ready source of cheap surplus contactors, a contactor
> controller may not end up being any cheaper than one of those Alltrax 72v
> controllers.
> I had that from my Electric Fuel Daze, BIG honkin' diodes from the RR,
too.
> Seriously, make sure you know what you're getting into. A contactor
> controller is (IMO) uncomfortable for passengers, and often hard on the
> driveline. Click-WHAM! Starting resistors help, but not enough, IMO.
> This is why the Raptur controller was such an improvement! Or why I
called it my Rapture controller, silky smooth 2nd gear launches and cool
current multiplication.
> The golf car charger is an interesting idea. I hear it's not too hard to
> find used 36 volt chargers.
>
> It would probably be easier to split a 72v pack in half and use two
> chargers, than to modify one. That way you could also keep the charge
> controllers (assuming they have them ;-). Some golf car chargers might be
a
> tad heavy-handed for 8 volt batteries, if you choose to use those.
Finally,
> they are WAY too heavy to use onboard; you'd have to leave them in the
> garage.
>
I think the Electrac Guyz use a 36 volt charger that is less bulky than the
Boat Anchor Lestermatics? Maybe somebody on the Electrac List will chime in
on this one?
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am looking into new tires for my EV. I would like
to get a low rolling resistance tire if possible. I
am looking for a 195/50/15. Any recommendations from
the list?
Thanks,
Joel
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 31 Jul 2005 at 18:26, Ralph Goodwin wrote:
> What is the shelf life of Deka 8G47 batteries? Assuming they are stored
> in a air conditioned building, without being charged, how long can they
> sit without losing significant capacity.
I'm not familiar with 8G47s. However, I have several 8G24s sitting idle right
now. I put a charger on them every 6 months or so, but they seldom take
more than a couple of amp-hours before the charger shuts off. I've never seen
any other lead batteries with such low self-discharge.
As far as capacity loss, I haven't measured their capacity recently, so I can't
say. It's normal for batteries to decline in capacity when they're not used,
but they should "wake up" when put into service and cycled.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recently purchased a 1994 Kawasaki Ninja EX500 that has been converted to
electric. Here are a few facts and opinions for your project.
First the vehicle is not on the EV Photos list yet. It is a nice looking
bright yellow medium sized sport bike. It probably weighs ~420 pounds. It has
an
ADC 6.7" motor with 72 volts of suspect (not very well balanced) Optima
Yellow Tops. Chain drive, single gear ratio of 14t to 47t.
First a bit about the performance. It has a real world (on the gas hard, in
very hilly terrain) range of 12 to 15 miles with the current set of older YTs.
It performs like a heavy 500 cc motorcycle in suburban driving up to 55
mph. I have yet to explore interstate (65 to 75 mph) range and maximum speed.
I
am guessing that the watt hours per mile is about 150 or so.
- Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All;
A few updates of late, am about, later this week to start my Portland
pilgrimage to Woodburn, and points west. Have alota, relatively speaking as I
have finally retired from Amtrak, having made my last flight to Boston from New
Haven, on train 170,last Friday, wrapping up 30 years on the RR. Lottsa fun,
held several positions before settling in to the right side of the cab,
Engineer, a boyhood dream come true.Growing up in Pennsylvania, never far from
Electric trains an' Trolleys, in my deformative years, it didn't take much to
carry it over to cars. Never actually SAW any electric cars as a kid, other
than pix of oddly shaped stagecoaches without horses that the first ones looked
liked,As America was getting rid of streetcars as fast as it could when I was a
kid, didn't seem like EV cars had a chance. My Dad always thought Steam was a
better choice, reminising that steam cars could go up hills that the gassers
had to back up, as reverse was there lowest gear. As he was bo!
rn in1900, as a kid ALL cars were curiosities, then, a big deal when somebody
drove through a small town. Most folks arrived by trolley or train.He, dad say
that some EV's survived, not many til WW 2 when the happy owners got around gas
rationing, by driving electric. Shades of things to come, I think?
At my sorta parting party coffee an' donuts on Amtrak, no wonder they are
broke at Dunkin' Donut prices<g>!"Hey Bob, I know where ya live, be over for an
electric AFTER I can't get any gas to get to work" Sorta comments like that.
But they could START by getting rid of the SUV or massive pickup. I am a lone
voice in the wilderness of HUGH THINGS in our parking lot, bairly room enough
to slip a Rabbit inbetween, as ALL SBT drivers NEVER can close up the gaps of
half spots that are big enough, barely, for me to squeeze in and plug in. I
leave my 120/240 volt plugin to anybody else with an EV. The plugs will carrode
away, waiting for any other Amtrak EVers, I fear. If I can come up with a
turnkey EV it may get some takers. A Freedom Ev?Prei are showing up in RR
workers spots now, there are a few guyz with shiny new Prei, very happy, too.
After rounds of coffee, hugs and handshakes, hop in the Rabbit, after all,
my last daze wouldn't have been complete without the EV. Plugged it in to the
Blue Box across the line rectifier charger. 70 amps poured into the T 105's so
I can fly home. Was doing just that, 3 miles from home when I hear a kinda
"Click" from the back. Run over a stick sorta sound, then grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr,
tire smoke in the mirror. OH Oh o, flat tire? Open door, nope but settling in
the left rear. SOMETHING has happened, pulled over. Something, spring dragging
on the tire. Flashers on, drag it off the road, continue at walking speed ,
creeping toward home. Pull into a friends place to get where it was safe to
effect repairs.Rich came out,when I pulled in. He didn't have a jack, but a
supersize iron pinch bar about 7 foot long. Put a RR tie block alongside the
car to pick it up. All I had was that chintzy VW jack made for a stock, 12 lb
Rabbit. Lifting the E Rabbit was like trying to pick up a l!
ocomotive with it. As Rich lifted with the bar I could snug jack up to hold
what he had. Got it up on jackstands, longing for my REAL floor jack which
picks up cars like a feather. Pulled the rear wheel, the shock spring assembly,
off a BMW 528 car, the top of the shock piston had snapped off, right above the
smooth piston part where it turns into thread to hold it all together. With no
upper suporter alignment the spring was free to go, but not far! Tire stopped
it from getting away. I have NEVER seen or heard of a shock busting like
that!?It was out of a dead BMW that had about the same axle loadings of the
Rabbit, so it couldn't say that it was overloaded. I picked it out in the
junkyard, just for that. Wierd stuff.
Same thing, last week ,wierdness, dept. I had a HOTBOX on an AEM-7 electric
lokie, coming back from Boston Monday!. Hotboxes, long the bane of RR dom, are
overheated axle bearings. Many wrecks recorded over the years of melted wheel
journal bearings failing dropping the truck frame to the roadbed, instant
derailment, passengers expiring by the dozens, in thre ensueing wreck. Modern
science has gone beyond that? Well, almost. RR car and lokie wheels run massive
tapered roller bearings, like in a car, just a bit bigger, like 10-12 INCHES
inside dia! Plenty of reserve capacity. So hotboxes , nowadaze,are as common as
lasting middle east peace. Only saw one other, a 1914 caboose with the vintage
friction bearings. Smoking! Set the car floor on fire! Fortunately a wayside
signal maintainer yelled at me to stop on the radio. Same thing, sorta, on
Monday. Today, RR's use a really great tool, the Wayside Hotbox detecter. It's
an infared outfit that can pick up hot wheel bearings!
, even at 150 mph! It "Talks"Syntasized voice, sounds wierd, like Hal, in"
2001 A Space Oddesy" movie. So it came on with "You have a defect first axle, a
hotbox, right side" EAAAH, that's right under my feet! Open window, no smoke or
grinding sound, like a car wheel, auto, going. Pull over, check ALL the lokie
journals, they are cool to pleasently warm. OK go on awile another 10 miles or
so, discuss with the dispatcher. Made an executive decision; Go slow, no 100
mph stuff, anymore, give it a break, as I had 9 cars and was running the engine
hard to stay on time. Hell, I'm not paying for the juice<g>!So dragged along at
about 50 mph, checked again, it's getting damn HOT, not smoking, though. Call
for teckie assistance in New Haven. THEY said it really IS a hot box, like
touch it with a wet finger and it sissses! Engine comes off, of course we don't
have an extra electric sitting around, so call up the Dioseasels! 2 GE, P 32's
do the honors to NYC, but they hafta hand over!
the train at NY to go through the underground tunnels, well the diese
ls will FIT , but they sure smoke up the place! You will get yelled at if you
go in with Diseasels.But this gives NY a heads up, like a hour an' a half to
come up with an electric, for the pre-tunnel power change.Guess that happened
as I hopped in MY electric and came home.
Gees! 3 daze without having to deal with I 95 TRAFFIC, don't miss that. I
will miss my second family at Amtrak, it was a hell of a lot of fun working
with these guyz, and gals, as we are an equil opportunity employer. So as my
Dad said, thousands of years ago" Get a job that you like and you never have to
go to WORK" He waited til he was 58 to take his own advice. RR's are fun, if
you young 'uns are looking for a good paying, but brutal hours til ya get some
seniority. Toward the end I just picked the jobs I wanted in bidding, and got
them. Engineer is the best job on the RR anyhow,IMHO I was lucky as I started
rather late in life, right after my CitiCar daze, had a buddy get me on, in
1974, bringing home a 186 dollar check, a week! After part time stuff, seemed a
princely amount.
Nowadays, with Amtrak having to fight for it's life for funding, employment
could be iffy there. But freight RR's are doing great. Out West they are
begging for help to run more trains as 3 bux a gal is gunna make long distance
trucking as scandalous waste of funds. Trains out west are mostly truck
trailers, or boxes on flatcars, a few less on the road. The Fall mag "Classic
Trains" Has a intersting article on electric freight, or why we don't today.
WHO had it and where. Seems to me the Union Pathetic should be stringing
catenery while there is still diesel fuel for their work trains.And BNSF or"
Big New Santa Fe" too, no more grinding off brake shoes and smoking dynamic
braking grids on the lokies going down hill. That wasted power COULD be helping
other trains UP hill. A sorta electrical Funicular Railway. A Funicular RR
works by having two cars on a cable so one is at the bottom of a hill the other
is up, threy sorta balance, a small motor cranks them back and forth,!
or up and down, mostly.Pittsburgh has some antique examples, worth a stop
there to see.
OK it's that time of year. WOODBURN! YEA! I'm on my way in a few daze.
Making a few stops on the way, as usual. Dropping off a dead motor or two at
Warfield, Chicago,for repairs, saves shipping, always fun to visit a DC motor
factory, to see the motors we know and love being born.I havent worked out a
timetable as to where I'll be each day. Like a kid in a candy store I always
love wondering across this great beautiful land God blessed , past tense, us
with. Or WHY I feel that we haftya DO something about pollution, global
warming, all that stuff. My trusty Prius will do just fine, I hope as it did
LAST year. EV Someday?? Maybe now with a bit more time to improve my tech a
bit? Rabbit is getting long in the tooth, anyhow.Or Rust-O-Matic is taking it's
toll.
Seeya, an' mean it!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your goal might be possible at 36v or 72v. If you keep moped speed no
problem. The problem is faster speeds. In my opinion 35mph makes a lot of
drag. 25mph is much better. 30 max. If you have some sort of fairing that
will help. 38 miles is going to have to be 6 Optimas. You might want to
make some sort of feet forward bike. Something where you can lean back and
put your feet up. A Honda Rebel might work. There are plans called El
Chopper and El Chopper ET. These might be of some use. Now at 72v you can
make a very fast bike but the top speed will kill range. That's the trade
off. If you could incorporate a transmission into your bike that might give
you the best of both worlds. But with only a 38mph top speed no
transmission is needed. I converted a Lectra to have two more batteries &
if I keep the speed at 25 or under I can go 40 miles with fresh batteries.
http://www.21wheels.com/elchopper_ET.html These are the plans for the El
Chopper ET. The El Chopper is much lighter. Good luck. Lawrence Rhodes
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, July 31, 2005 8:04 PM
Subject: G'day ... thinking about Electric Motorcycles
G'day all,
I just stumbled onto this list a couple of days ago, and I'm still
reading back through the archives. Some of the things in the photo
album look fantastic! Since the questions about the Z550 have
lured me out of hiding I figure I should introduce myself.
I'm a 33yo software hacker from Melbourne, Australia, with a bit of
an EE background and an obsession with motorcycles of all kinds.
At the moment my main bike is a BMW R100GS, but it's a bit of a
handful around town. I'm interested in seeing if an electric
motorcycle would be feasible for me to build and use day-to-day.
So far I'm thinking:
* Electric motor with 10-20hp peak and maybe 1-2hp continuous.
* Simple chain drive to rear wheel.
* About 80kg of sealed batteries in case it falls over -- maybe
Optima Yellow Top? Either a 48V or a 60V system.
* Some kind of twistgrip controller. Are regenerative ones
available in this power range?
* Some kind of onboard charger, so the bike can just be plugged
in to the 240V mains and left overnight / at work / etc.
* All shoehorned into a rolling chassis from a streamlined
250-400cc commuter would be about right ... kerb weight
about 160kg before, less than 200kg after I hope.
Does this sound reasonable?
I've gone through the bikes in the photo album and going by the stated
ranges and battery configs, the efficiency seems to vary enormously ...
between 50 Wh/km and 400 Wh/km! Anyone know a good rule of thumb for
a two-wheeled electric beastie?
I'd need to get a 'regular' range of maybe 40km (25mi) and a 'regular'
speed of 60km/h (38mi/h) out of it to make it a practical bike, and
maybe occasionally a 60km (38 mi) range or a 80km/h (50 mi/h) top speed.
Is this practical with the available tech, or will I just have to wait
for fuel cells or unobtainium batteries or something?
Thanks!
-----Nick 'sharks' Moore
--
"Can't shake the devil's hand and say you're only kidding" -- TMBG
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry about the double post ....$%^#$% Windoz locked up on me ,didn't think
it sent anthing in that state!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Lightning Ryan wrote:
these new
Toshiba and Sony High Rate Lithium... Until they become available.
And these will be out when, and cost how much, and what will their amp hours be?
With current lithium battery packs costing ~$20,000 - $30,000+, that's
only part of it. What about a general purpose, universal, low cost
BMS? How much is one of those?
Do lithium's have what it takes to get into the "100 mph club" and beyond?
No problem, but you must join $100k club as well.
Or everyone expects miracles for near nothing? Keep dreaming.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Even for less than $6k. As of complexity - this is the reason Siemens
turned into production of Simotion model - identical electrically
(just no DC-DC converter) and about 1/4 of size/weight.
Just one CPU boadr on top of 6 pack IGBT with driver board:
CPU:
http://www.metricmind.com/simotion/pic00013.jpg
Overall:
http://www.metricmind.com/simotion/pic00016.jpg
Simoverts use to cost about ~20k to OEMs with full blown
support infrastructure established.
You don't judge the cost of the product by how much total
the loose components inside worth - biggest part of it is the software.
Victor
Don Cameron wrote:
That is a Siemens Simovert long inverter:
http://www.metricmind.com/images/l_open-s.gif Victor used to sell them for
a quite a bit less than $30,000, maybe $6,000?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: July 29, 2005 8:55 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: AC Inverter question
Is there ~$30,000 worth of components in this box?
http://img93.imageshack.us/img93/1371/lopen6au.jpg
Is that the only way to build an inverter? Name one thing that is more
complex then the inverter in that picture.
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I hope some ICE gurus could shine some light on this.
It is possible to modify a normal Otto cycle ICE to
run Atkinson cycle? The Prius uses late intake valve
closing (LIVC) to achieve this by decreasing
compression ratio and increasing expansion ratio. It
trades peak power for thermal efficiency.
What I am thinking is to just modify the intake cam to
achieve this. There are many ways to do this, the
easiest being to shorten the intake valves or the
pushrods. This would effectively introduce late
intake valve opening, early intake valve closing, and
decrease the intake valve opening gap. We might even
be able to use the camshalf of a Prius engine
(1NZ-FXE)on the engine of the Echo (1NZ-FE).
This would make a large engine run like a smaller one.
And, if we use this engine as a range
extender/generator, we could potentially get more
efficiency. And, could we use this technique on a
regular portable genset?
Google is not much help on this. There are just too
many websites about Prius's Atkinson cycle engine.
Ed Ang
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Does anyone have any hard figures on what the cost would be
of running a wider lower profile tire compared to a hi pressure
skinny low resistance tire? Just curious how much it would kill
the range or speed or anything else as I've not seen any figures
on this.
Dave
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Hi all,
For my Porsche 914 conversion, I'm considering mounting my controller,
a DCP T-Rex 1000, and my DCP DC/DC converter in the car's rear trunk.
There's enough clearance to fit them, even with the removable top
stored in the trunk, and it would protect them from the elements (plus
look nice). However, I am concerned that the lack of airflow could
cause problems. Is this a decidedly bad idea? How about if I add some
ventilation fans?
Thanks
-Ben
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Lee Hart wrote:
...
Suppose you have a carton of milk in the refrigerator.
...
It won't be accurate, but
you'll have an intuitive feel for it ("about 2 day's worth").
It's the same with a battery. We need an understandable way to present
how much energy is in it, and how much your vehicle consumes as you
drive it. Then the driver can make a reasonable prediction as to how far
he/she can go.
Sure. Question is if the answer "about 10 miles more" will be
acceptable (I'll try to get it better than that, but...)
This probably means not presenting them in engineering units; your wife
has a feeling for what a gallon is, but not a kilowatthour.
It will be in units everyone (supposedly) understands - percentage.
Simply, 30% "juice" is left = 30% range is left. Not kWh.
All the math complexity for coming up with this number is hidden
from the user.
Similarly to fuel gauges = it is calibrated in 1/4, 2/4, 3/4, Full.
Not in gallons.
Well, 1/4 of what? Does everyone remember how many gallons the tank holds?
My wife doesn't, especially for all 3 vehicles we own.
Back to the Peukert - I think I will store default Peukert
numbers for common batteries and allow a user to alter it
based on how well actual results agree with predictions.
There will be instructions how the numbers impact readouts,
and by how much to change them to make the best average match.
This is what the E-meter does. It works well enough if the user is smart
enough to configure it properly. And, it presents its data in
engineering units.
I think the next logical step is to make it figure out the battery's
characteristics by itself. It should program itself, not depend on the
operator. And, it should have an alternate "intuitive" display, not just
engineering units like volts, amps, and amphours.
It does already, just the self-configuring part is not ready since
I never intent the gadget to be used with lead acid batteries.
Since the speed and power consumption data are available, as a default,
it will simply display diminishing number of miles left until empty.
Of course, a user can switch to the engineering units if he whats to.
I don't own an emeter and I believe you do. What else practically
useful do you get out of the unit (other than Ah remaining and plain
instant voltage/current readings, all dumpable to RS232)?
I want to make sure I'm not overlooking relevant functionality.
I do have it's manual but want actual user's experience.
Thanks in advance,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
p.s. Granted, it is fully isolated from the traction pack and does not
require multiple isolated power sources - just car's 12V house power.
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Yes, it is possible (and in fact being done).
Victor
Martin Klingensmith wrote:
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Are the big plastic boxes filled with what is in the first two pictures?
http://www.thunder-sky.com/en/battery.htm
Speaking of which, does anyone know if it is possible to buy 20 or 30 of
those 3.6v 10Ah cells?
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Sorry, too late notice for me...
Victor
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Sorry for the last minute notice on this, but I've been rather busy with
racing stuff. All EVers are invited to join guests Jim Coates and Mark
Farver who are in town visiting, to have dinner with some of local EV guys
tonight at Giuseppe's, an Italian & pizza restaurant located at 179th & SE
Stark Street, very near the major intersection of Stark & 181st Ave. We're
planning on a late dinner at between 7:45 and 8:00, because Mark's plane
gets in at 7:20 or so.
Those who are interested can simply stop by, listen for the noisy table
with arms flying, and sit on down and join in. I'll be driving Blue Meanie,
so any other EVers with running rides can find an EV friend to park next
to.
See Ya.....John Wayland
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>> I pulled out my AMP catalog for an example. Their nickel and
>> nickel-plated copper terminals are trademarked "Strato-Therm".
>> They look just like normal crimpable ring terminals, and come
>> in both uninsulated and insulated versions (the insulated ones
>> use Teflon).
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> They may exist in the AMP catalog, but nobody that I can find seems
> to carry them.
You could call AMP; maybe they will send you some samples :-)
Though for the number of them needed, it might pay to order a box of
them. It might be enough to meet the minimum order quantities.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Joe Smalley wrote:
> If the meter read out in "Cents of electricity," the operator may
> grasp the concept sooner.
Good idea. I used to work for Robertshaw Controls designing thermostats.
One of our projects was a thermostat for people who were behind on their
utility bills. The customer paid $X on his utility bill, and got a
credit card that he inserted into the thermostat. The thermostat read
out in dollars remaining, and counted down as the furnace ran. You could
immediately see that the higher you set your thermostat, the faster the
dollars remaining counted down. When the credit ran out, the thermostat
defaulted to 50 deg.F (so you'd have enough heat so your pipes wouldn't
freeze, but not enough to be comfortable).
The program was a big success, both with the utilities (who paid for the
thermostat) and with customers (who were glad to have a way to measure
and control their actual expenditures for heat).
So, you could have a 'fuel' gauge that showed dollars of electricity you
put in when charging, and counted down this number of dollars as you
drive. The faster you drive, the faster it counts down.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Any battery on the market place is about only as expensive as
badly people want it. A $10 cell (prod.cost) *will*
sell for $1000 if enough buyers will be willing to go for it.
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Lightning Ryan wrote:
I dunno, how does 10kW/L (4.5kW/kg) sound (Toshibas)?
Is that enough power density to get into the 100's with?
With the Zilla set to 2,000 amps, will the BMS allow for that sort of discharge?
And why are these batteries so expensive? Are the raw materials that
expensive? Consumer AA, AAA, etc sized NiMH and Alkaline batteries
were never this expensive were they?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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Bob Rice wrote:
>right after my CitiCar daze,
How did you get involved with that anyways?
>at Warfield, Chicago, always fun to visit a DC motor factory, to see
the motors >we know and love being born.
Try and get some pics of one of those mythical 15" monsters...
Also see if they have anything even more fierce that could be put in an EV...
I only want the most fiercest motor in all the land... ;)
Might have to see what one of these 13" motors is good for... ( I
suspect the 15" might not have much rpm potential?)
Just what is the absolute upper amp limit of the 13" motor anyways?
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<<No; that is exactly right. A vacuum tube is a variable resistor. I am
speaking of traditional vacuum tubes, which have a true vacuum inside.>>
What?!?!! You've got to be kidding me! Is this some kind of sick joke? All
a bloody vacuum tube is is a resistor? What the hell is so impressive about
that? All this time, I thought that we didn't use resistors for power control
because it was wasteful and inefficient - thus we used tubes, transistors,
etc. You mean to tell me that - no, that's not the case, and in fact we *do*
use resistors for power control, its just that the resistors are more "fancy"
for lack of better words, and are called tubes and transistors??? You mean
that
90-something percent of the power generated by power companies is uselessly
burned up inside resistors throughout devices in the world, in an effort to
control power?
You mean my Marshall JCM900-SLX - a 100 watt guitar tube amplifier which I've
taken apart many times - simply has 4 red hot glowing variable resistors
(EL-34s) controlling the power, and nothing more profound than that? What's
the
big bloody deal about that? You mean I could pull the expensive tubes, and
insert a few cheap-ass variable resistors, and essentially have the same
thing???
<<MOSFET transistors are also really variable resistors; just like vacuum
tubes. A variable voltage on the gate controls the resistance between
the source and drain.>>
Well then I'm really not impressed, to tell you the truth.
>> It must operate according to some basic principle. What is it?
<<The principle is easy to understand. You have a hot metal (called the
heater, or cathode) inside a vacuum bottle. As it approaches red hot,
electrons will "boil off" it, like steam over the surface of a pot of
hot water. [Etc.]>>
Yeah, I knew all that (sorry). Those are the "trees." I wanted the
"forest," which you (thankfully) just provided. You just told me it was a
variable
resistor. That's what I wanted. Thanks anyway, though.
<<No. A transistor is a variable resistor. More like a valve that controls
water flow, only a transistor controls the current flow.>>
Again, I'm completely unimpressed. All this time I thought it was something
a little more profound than the first electric component I ever studied in
circuits 101 - the resistor. I suppose it's sort of a buzzkill.
I suppose the good thing is, I now have a pretty good understanding of what a
transistor (or tube) is - I mean, how much simpler can you get than a linear
resistor? The other good news is, I suppose I can just chunk in resistors in
my power control designs of the future, instead of trying to design something
more efficient. Apparently there really isn't anything more efficient (or if
there is, it isn't cost effective or practical).
Thanks for all the help.
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I always thought labeling a fuel gauge directly in dollars should
change the way many drivers drive...
With digital readout gauge it is easy (the cost per gallon can be dialed
in)...
Victor
Joe Smalley wrote:
If the meter read out in "Cents of electricity," the operator may grasp the
concept sooner.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Very Bad...
You need about 500 CFM of cool dry air. Or a fan from the outside that is
the same as the fan on the T-Rex. That's a 4.7(120MM) moving about 400 CFM
in free air.
We didn't put that size of fan in there for fun....We did it for a
reason....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ben Apollonio" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:28 AM
Subject: DCP T-Rex and DC/DC in closed space?
> Hi all,
>
> For my Porsche 914 conversion, I'm considering mounting my controller,
> a DCP T-Rex 1000, and my DCP DC/DC converter in the car's rear trunk.
> There's enough clearance to fit them, even with the removable top
> stored in the trunk, and it would protect them from the elements (plus
> look nice). However, I am concerned that the lack of airflow could
> cause problems. Is this a decidedly bad idea? How about if I add some
> ventilation fans?
>
> Thanks
> -Ben
>
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I thought I'd chime in here, as your discussions on stability are
related to a project I'm playing with here.
Stability ultimately boils down to keeping the tire(s) at the optimum
angle to the road, and having the vehicle's center of gravity optimally
located compared to where the tires contact the road.
Suppose you limit the size of the vehicle (must be W feet wide and L
feet long); that leads to a rectangular vehicle. Suppose you also
require a "fixed" vehicle geometry; that the tire contact points and
center of gravity don't move as you turn and corner. Then, a 4-wheel
vehicle is the natural consequence. You put a wheel in each corner for
the best stability. You could have more wheels for extra load-carrying
capacity or traction, but they won't improve handling.
But if you remove these constraints, other numbers of wheels may be
optimal. If you want the vehicle to be triangular, then 3 wheels
naturally becomes the most stable, because this puts the wheels as far
from the C.G. as the shape allows. So, an ultra-streamlined vehicle
(which happens to be roughly triangular) might be best as a 3-wheeler.
If you allow the vehicle's geometry to *change* during turning and
cornering, things get even more open. By allowing leaning, a 2-wheeler
seems to be the best choice. Certainly many motorcycles can out-corner
and out-stop many cars.
Let's carry this one step further. Suppose you wanted a very small
vehicle for efficiency and easy parking; yet you want it tall enough to
see and be seen by SUV drivers. And, we allow changes in the vehicle's
geometry -- leaning *and* repositioning the wheel contact points. Now a
ONE-wheel vehicle could provide the best handling! A unicycle!
Normally, the driver provides all the balance and control. But you could
(theoretically) have a very elaborate control system to rapidly move
this one wheel relative to the C.G. wherever it needs to be to maintain
balance. So, you "just get on and drive", and let the control system do
all the hard work. Essentially what the Segway does, but with one wheel
instead of two.
Ok; so this sounds pretty "blue sky". Something for a college student's
graduate thesis. Which brings me to my idea...
Let's try something simple enough to actually build and try. How about a
self-balancing, good handling 2-wheeler?
My BEST kids built a 2-wheel self-balancing "Segway" type vehicle by
locating the two wheels at the front-right and left-rear corners of a
seat platform. The seat and battery were below the axles, so it
self-balanced. It worked better than I would have thought! But it had an
odd diagonal wobble, which they basically ignored. They just balanced it
with body english, and caught mistakes with a chair caster "landing
wheel" in the other two corners that hit if it rocked too far.
But... what if you built a 2-wheel vehicle that CHANGES its geometry?
Imagine a bicycle that consists of the front half of two bikes welded
together at the seat post, so it can steer at front and/or rear. Let's
power the motors electrically to eliminate the pedal and chain problem.
When riding at higher speed, lock the rear wheel straight ahead. Now it
rides just like any bike.
At low speeds (too low to balance), turn both front and rear wheels by
the same amount to go straight ahead. If the driver and battery weight
are below the axles, it self-balances! At a dead stop, the two wheels
are beside each other (like a segway); it is stable left/right, and
rocks fore/aft, its weight hanging below the axles.
If both wheels are independently powered, steered, and braked; you
should be able to dynamically position them wherever they need to be to
handle the vector forces. Or, it could position its wheels at right
angles to the force and "lean" into them.
This is still a hard problem, but it seems a lot easier than a
one-wheeler, or fixed-geometry 2-wheeler with its requirement for rider
skill or an elaborate balancing system.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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