EV Digest 4546
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Finding Parts
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Racing 3wheels,Comments ideas
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Calrify Peukert effect
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Power requirement for "faster than an electric car" performance
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Deka dominato. Now: Are they as good as Optima or Exide? What would
the racers use?
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Racing 3wheels,
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Racing 3wheels,Comments ideas
by "Stu or Jan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rubber mount motor and transmission
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 1971 Electra King 2 Door Electric Car - $2500
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) 6v battery behavior.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Racing 3wheels, Re: 3 wheel EV's trike pick up, and
CUSHMAN Tr...
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Atkinson Cycle Genset/Range Extender?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Solectria S-10 conversion on ebay
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Conversions with MagnaCharge ports?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Finding Parts
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, 31 Jul 2005 10:00:59 -0700, "John G. Lussmyer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At 10:26 AM 7/31/2005, Lee Hart wrote:
>> > I'd really prefer the lugs that enclose the entire end of the
>> > wire. Waytek also has them - but not with a #10 hole.
>>
>>How about soldering the wire in? That plugs the hole in the end.
>
>I may end up doing that, but I'm not sure if I can get those kinds of
>connectors nickel plated.
You might want to look for high temperature lugs as used to connect to
large heating elements. These are typically either pure nickel or
Inconel, depending on the temperature range.
I have some I bought surplus that are good for up to 4 ga wire. No
idea where to get them new, tough I'd check with the usual brand name
suspects (Amp, etc.)
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> Seems like were getting a bit off track with the 3 wheeler thing. Sorta
> like the Auto mags that sneer at Hybrid cars performance. Hell, the Prius,
> old one, for example, has plenty of "Go" for most of us. I mean really how
> often, J. Wayland excepted<g> NEED 0-to60 in 4 or 5 seconds. Gees! People
> out there can't EVen merge onto the freeway right with a car dripping with
> GO. How many times do you have to slam on the brakes to dodge somebody in
> a fast enough car to merge gracefully?That DON'T!
Hey Bob, take a look at the subject line.
See where it says "Racing"?
This particular discussion is about race cars not commuter cars.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks,
Of course I'm not forgetting it and the temp compensation is
the first thing factored in. Difficult part is to model this
dependency accurately enough to do more good than harm :-)
FYI, not only battetry parameters or chemical reactions in general
are temp dependant. If you dig deeper, *everything* in nature is
temp dependant, no exceptions. Let's not go on EVDL to the reasons why,
just accept it.
Danny Miller wrote:
You know, one thing we're forgetting is that temp has a very significant
effect on a lead acid battery. I know it affects the unloaded voltage
of the battery and the usable capacity. It seems like it's going to
affect the Peukert's coefficients but I'm not sure of that.
Danny
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
It will be in units everyone (supposedly) understands - percentage.
Simply, 30% "juice" is left = 30% range is left. Not kWh.
All the math complexity for coming up with this number is hidden
from the user.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Aug 2005 at 3:25, Danny Miller wrote:
> I'm building a pulser and have several batteries with different stories in
> mind. A common 17AH 12v SLA that has been worn out and only has like 20%
> of its capacity left. A starting battery that was fairly new but then
> left in a car that didn't run for years. A lawn tractor starting battery
> that used to perform like crap and then taken out and left in the garage
> for years.
The problem with this scheme is that it provides no real comparative
information, only more anecdotal data. There's plenty of that already.
As Lee and I have already suggested, what we really need is :
1. A large enough sample that the data become statistically valid
2. Three groups of batteries in the sample :
A. A group treated with the desulfator
B. An identical group given a conventional equalization charge with a
well designed conventional charger
C. Another identical group left untreated as a control
Others here with more engineering experience than I may be able to suggest
additional groups of "subjects."
Except for the differences noted above, all subject groups must be treated
identically. They must have identical capacity and condition at the start of
the test, and every measurement and test should be carried out exactly the
same on every group, preferably simultaneously, to ensure that the test
procedures themselves don't cause the subjects to show misleading results.
As Lee said (and you quoted),
>This is what is missing in most casual testing. A person tests exactly
>one battery*, and makes few or no quantitative measurements. There is no
>way to know if the device worked, or if the test process itself was
>responsible for the improvement (just cycling a battery increases its
>capacity, even with no special device). You can't tell what different
>devices would have done, because you've altered the only test sample you
>have by making the tests.
*(Or one group of batteries, using only the desulfator.)
Without the above provisions - basic research methodology! - the experiment
will return only anecdotal evidence, with no real statistical validity.
The existing claims of the manufacturers and designers of these devices all
appear to be based on anecdotal (statistically invalid) data. IMO, an
experiment that adds still more anecdotal data may be interesting or
entertaining, but it's of no use at all for making informed decisions about the
real utility of the device.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm feeling out the plan and budget for a conversion to do in the next
couple years. The car is to be a VW Cabriolet. Range is going to be
very small, but I have a specific requirement for performance.
The requirement is that it surprise people who think electric cars are
slow. I don't need racing performance, but I want it to perform better
than before the conversion, and I want to pull away from the line with a
bit of kick. I know there are no specifics here, but can anyone give me
an idea of how many kilowatts I'm going to want?
I've pretty much settled on a Z1k as the controller. Just because I
really like the Zilla I have in my Sparrow, and I know it already.
My big question right now is batteries. As I pointed out, range is
almost certain to not be the deciding factor. Typical commute is to be
6 miles, and the longest anticipated trip is only 12 miles (round trip).
Just about anything that would give the power I want would also give the
range.
I had settled on exide AGMs because they seemed the most cost efficient
I the long run (I already ruled out floodeds because I don't want to
deal with them).
Now I'm wondering about Deka gel cells. List wisdom seems to be that
these are very good and durable batteries if you respect their amp
limits. Now, the Zilla is willing to respect a battery amp limit I give
it, so can't I just stack on batteries until the total kilowatt rating
of the batteries is enough to give the performance I want? Someone said
that Dekas were good only for AC use, but I take that to mean "High
voltage" use. Do AC and DC systems really treat their batteries any
different? My assumption has been that watts is watts, and if you pull
600 amps from a 120 volt pack, that is the same power to the motor as
pulling 300 amps from a 240 volt pack. Right?
So knowing what kind of wattage I'll need to get "zippy" will tell me
how many of each battery I would need, and the associated costs.
Thanks for any help,
-Jamie
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2 Aug 2005 at 7:50, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Isn't there anything out there that is tough as an
> Optima or Exide at about 60 pounds?
I think you'll have marginal hill climbing ability with 300 amps. It might be
OK
if you don't mind crawling up hills in the gravel truck lane.
You could use 8 volt golf car batteries (lower cost per mile) if you could drop
to 96 volts, but even there the hill climbing currents will shorten their life
somewhat. Flooded 12v marine batteries are right out, IMO.
If you can handle about a half-ton of weight, you could use the low cost per
mile champions, T-125 type golf car batteries, at 96 volts. Or, at that mass,
8-volters would give you 120 volts.
If you're locked into 156 volts, how about Optima G31s at 72 lb each? That
would give you about 940 lb of lead.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fortunat Mueller wrote:
Victor,
'Freedom Car' is not a GM program. It is the name that
DOE has given to the whole slew of their advanced
vehicle development programs, including recently the
massive fuel cell development and fleet demonstration
efforts.
Probably right, I only read of GM being part of it.
Now that you mentioned DOE I recall that other
companies can participate. Sorry for inaccuracy.
see :
http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/about/partnerships/freedomcar/index.shtml
also, Jerry has been pretty consistent calling his
three wheeler 'Freedom EV', which from a copyright
perspective (and consumer recognition perspective) is
definitely different than 'Freedom Car'.
I can consistently call my own business "Microsoft". So what?
I like the name Freedom EV; i hope I also like the car
(trike).
You and I I may like the name very much, that doesn't
change the fact that it is very similar to one
already existing. It's perception. C'mon, please don't nit pick,
you well understand that while "Freedom Car" and "Freedom EV"
may legally be different enough to avoid lawsuites,
they read similarly enough to wonder if one is being part of
the other. Has nothing to do how much we like it.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter, in light of this discussion,
I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
This appears to offer far supperior cornering support.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> I'm building a pulser and have several batteries with different
> stories in mind. A common 17AH 12v SLA that has been worn out
> and only has like 20% of its capacity left. A starting battery
> that was fairly new but then left in a car that didn't run for
> years. A lawn tractor starting battery that used to perform like
> crap and then taken out and left in the garage for years.
All of these should qualify as worn-out and abused batteries. It also
sounds like they may have failed from different kinds of abuse; the
first from many charge/discharge cycles, the second from sitting idle
too long, and the third from *both* too many cycles and sitting idle.
It's too bad you have only one of each. Anything you do to the battery
alters it. Suppose you have two tests; A and B. You do test A and it
improves the battery a lot, then do B and there's no change. You can't
conclude that A works and B doesn't because you can't "cure" a patient
who is already well.
It's far better to have several identical batteries that have all been
subjected to the same abuse; like a series string from one EV. On some
batteries you do A; on others you do B. Now you can tell which test (A
or B) works the best. This is what I did with 10 batteries to conclude
that the pulser didn't work any better than a plain old equalizing
charger.
> Any suggestions on what test figures you would find most useful?
First, you need a standardized load cycler. First, it needs to discharge
the battery with a standard load to a standard endpoint voltage. I used
25 amps to 10.5v for a 12v battery. Next, it needs to connect a charger
until a standard "full" condition occurs. I charged until the current at
15v dropped under 2amps as my "full" criterion for the 12v 40ah at the
20hr rate batteries I tested.
I run several of these standardized charge/discharge cycles, and record
the amphours and temperature. If the battery has been sitting around a
long time, there will be a dramatic rise in capacity with each cycle as
the battery gets "broken in" again. Give the battery time to cool after
each cycle, or you'll get a false capacity increase just from the
temperature rise. Keep running these tests until there is a no increase
in capacity -- it might take 10-20 cycles if the battery has sat idle
for a year.
Now you can try your experimental charging device. Substitute it for the
standardized charger. But keep the same criteria for "full" as above.
For example, connect your "test" charger or pulser for X hours, then
connect the standard charger. The battery should already be full, so the
standard charger shuts off almost immediately.
Again run some cycles, and see if the amphour capacity changes. If it
does, you have a pretty good indication that the "test" charger is doing
some good.
> The pulser is going to be set up to charge an inductor then reverse it
> so the current flows back into the battery. The efficiency of the flow
> should be around 90-95% per cycle. The circuit can probably do 100KHz
> and 10-20 amps, but of course the battery will need to be capable of
> supplying that much current before the pulser will work which is a bit
> of a quandry.
For a "lab test", I would not power the pulser from the battery. That is
just complicating the test, and will obscure your results. The basic
circuit is trivial. Get a "wall wart" power supply that gives you about
12vdc. Wire up the standard boost converter circuit with a 555 timer or
equivalent. Include a couple pots so you can set the frequency and pulse
width. The 555 drives the gate of a MOSFET. The inductor goes from the
12v input from the power supply to the MOSFET's drain. A diode goes from
the MOSFET drain to the battery positive.
> I can supply a trickle charge on top of that...
If the wall wart's voltage is higher than the battery voltage, it will
trickle charge the battery thru the inductor and diode even with the
pulser off. If the wall wart voltage is lower, then the only charging
will come from the pulses.
While pulsing, each time the 555 turns the MOSFET on, current flows from
the filter capacitor in the wall wart, thru the inductor, and MOSFET.
Current builds up in the inductor to a value determined by the MOSFET
on-time. When the MOSFET is turned off, this inductor current is forced
to go thru the diode and battery. Thus you get a pulse of whatever
current you like. The repetition rate (frequency) of the 555 will
determine how often it hits the battery with this pulse.
> it may be a bit difficult to get ahold of a power supply that
> can supply a lot of amps to charge the inductor
You just use a big filter capacitor on the output of a small power
supply. The average current for these pulsers is trivial. The peak
current just comes from the capacitor.
> This circuit should fix one of the major issues I have with the
> schematics out there - they don't really regulate the inductor
> current and the driver runs a risk of saturating the inductor.
One big problem with the Home Power type circuits is that they are by
nature extremely noisy. Cheap meters and test equipment give erroneous
readings. Using a toroidal or shielded inductor helps a lot to reduce
radiated noise. You also need to use shielded leads (not loose wires,
widely separated) for all your wiring or you'll get weird readings due
to noise.
I think half the results experimenters think they are getting are due to
bad meter and 'scope readings.
--
Light bulbs are brighter than people. You can't fool 'em into producing
more light with imaginary power like you can people.
-- Lee Hart
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Amen!!
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Rice
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 10:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Racing 3wheels,Comments ideas
Hi EVerybody;
Seems like were getting a bit off track with the 3 wheeler thing. Sorta
like the Auto mags that sneer at Hybrid cars performance. Hell, the Prius,
old one, for example, has plenty of "Go" for most of us. I mean really how
often, J. Wayland excepted<g> NEED 0-to60 in 4 or 5 seconds. Gees! People
out there can't EVen merge onto the freeway right with a car dripping with
GO. How many times do you have to slam on the brakes to dodge somebody in a
fast enough car to merge gracefully?That DON'T!
To the point. If the 3 wheeler will give decent, safe, non capsizing
handling with REASONABLE use. Thats all that matters. An after market would
spring up that you could gussy it up to climb walls, run across ceilings ,
whatEVer. But for now lets think of reasonable speed and handling BREAKING
the stranglehold of Big Oil. The wonder of Oil Free transportation, and a
little fun, easy to park, maintain, cheap to buy. And pride in being
different, actually DOING something about consumption, talk is cheap, DOING
stuff takes a bit more. I have put my money where my mouth is. I believe, in
EV's and new ideas. A Better Sparrow, has Jerry here,a TWO seater so you can
tale Whomever with you AND bring home the groceries.
Who ELSE out there is taking the car by the horns and DOING something?
Well, OK there is the Commuter car, but that's a bit pricy, convert a
Something Else to an EV, that's what WE are doing, because we BELIEVE in
EV's and I know they work.Driving my crappy old Rabbit for 6 years now. I
say crappy because it is, what the hell, an OLD car. I don't care it shows
that a nobody can make a working EV, use it to go to all the enchanting
places I go EVeryday, work, Well That's out now, just retired. But
everywhere else I need to go in Life.Well, cheating ,to Woodburn, gotta use
Prius this year.
I can see, EVentually a 13k or so Freedom EV in alotta guyz driveways, in
a few years. EVers first, Joe Sixpack, down the road when he sees the EVer
driving it every day, and fed up with gas prices. His wife thinks it's
"Cute" trys it and wants one of her own, SHE picks out the color<g>!
Jerry's 3 wheeler can, and will, be basic transportation, like an old
V-Dub Beatle. You old timers remember those? NO Radio, NO gas gage, no heat,
Ha Ha! But you loved it's willingness, it wanted to run, was quirky and
cute, went like hell in snow,etc! Not to mention the great tongue in cheek
ads they did.
Before getting carried off in clouds of contentment, on anything with
wheels, tha talent of the List will be Jerry's best asset, as it would be if
I had Bill Gates money, or Osamas' I would, could hire many of you for a no
holds barred EV. Bear with us, I want to see my dream of SOME form of EV
that can be fun and usefull, make the grade. and be easy to maintain. Gail,
I think we have something you could use? Hang in there. Your EV may be along
in our lifetime?!
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 01, 2005 10:25 PM
Subject: RE: Racing 3wheels,
> Snip snip snip here.
Leave the racing stuff to those who choose to, lets get something in
production here.
OK down from my soapbox, step right up...over to you.
Seeya at Woodburn!
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did I say caster? It was suppose to be "camber".
Victor
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Peter, in light of this discussion,
I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
This appears to offer far supperior cornering support.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don Cameron wrote:
> Since electric motors do not produce any vibration, is it
> really required to rubber mount a motor and transmission?
No; if the motor is well balanced, it won't contribute any vibration.
However, not all motors are perfectly balanced -- the factory just gets
them "good enough". So, you should run it on the bench first to see how
smooth it is before using hard mounts. If necessary, you can have it
balanced.
That said, there are lots of other parts in the drive train that aren't
all that well balanced, either. Let's face it; an ICE is one big
vibrator. Compared to it, car manufacturers don't work very hard to
balance the rest of the drive train components. Your clutch, flywheel,
torque converter, transmission, drive shafts, brake rotors, etc. are
also sources of imbalance and vibration. When the motor is hard-mounted,
you have a direct metallic connection all the way from wheels to frame.
Anything in the entire drive line that vibrates can telegraph this
vibration to your frame.
Also, motor controllers deliver pulsating power. This can make acoustic
noise even in a perfectly balanced motor. Hard mounting the motor can
couple this noise to the body where it makes something vibrate or buzz
sympathetically.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, 2005-08-02 at 11:00, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/car/88239269.html Seen on Craigs List.
I like it. Does anyone know anything about these beasties?
Specifically, real-world speed/range numbers. I think it would be great
for running into town for a few groceries and general ampabout. (about
15 miles round trip).
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello...
New to the list, and it seems like the time when all
the bikers are checkin' in. So count me in the mix,
too. This morning, as I was out in the shop putting
a new back-half wiring harness on the old Harley
bobber, I was turning over the EV motorcycle idea
in my head.
Two things (except for the money thing, and that's
chronic) are holding me up right now. One is that I'm
not finding too little information, I'm finding too much.
An embarrassment of riches. So I'll be continuing to
read the archives and asking for pointers. The other
thing is that my present living situation seems to
limit the possibilities.
That second one seems like it's more important, so
as a brief overview:
We're located in the Southern Interior of BC, 40 km
from the core of Kamloops and work. This is not a flat
40 km, but contains hills. Fairly big ones, if you know
this area.
We also own a 2003 Honda Civic Hybrid -- my wife's
car -- which we've put a lotta kms on in the last two
years. This may be the best solution for us, though I
really would rather be on two wheels than four. The
other four-wheeler is my truck, which we fondly refer
to as the Exxon Valdez because it's hit a few rocks
and it also leaks oil. Since many of the best lakes around
here are at the end of some pretty rough alleged
"roads" we use it for camping and hauling the canoe.
And running into town for things bigger than we can
put in the car or strap to the back of one of the
motorcycles.
Our road is winding and narrow, infested with log trucks
and deer -- so whatever I have has to go fast enough
to avoid being run over and slow enough to stop for
Bambi. My thinking about EVs has covered the following
cases:
1. A motorcycle that can go into town and back home
on one charge. Tall order. 70 km/h, for at least 100 km.
2. A motorcycle that can go into town and recharge for
the homeward leg within six hours. 70 km/h for 50 km.
3. A motorcycle that stays pretty close to home. Our
nearest store is 25 km away, so unless it's the same as
#2 above it's just a fun toy that doesn't really "do
anything." Still, a tire-burning bobber like "Amp Hog"
would be cool and could be trailered (get thee behind
me...) to places to ride.
4. Let's get off the pavement. I have hundreds of
kilometres of logging roads right behind the house.
Something that has the power and traction to get
up there, say up to 30 km round trip, would be at
least marginally useful. Regenerative braking would
be useful -- it's as far down as it is up. If yer gonna
trailer it, might as well ride somewhere with scenery.
5. An EV truck -- it's bigger, it's harder to keep out
of the way of the other vehicles in the stable. It
requires more storage room. It would need to at
least match #2 above and haul a load besides. Too
much like work -- I'd rather have a motorcycle.
6. All else failing, if my life just wouldn't be complete
without an EV of some kind, I'd convert a small
tractor to electric and use it to plow snow. I have
100 m of driveway to keep clear, and an old flathead
powered tractor that does fine as long as it's above
-40C.
Electric-assist bicycles are only barely on this list. I
*could* see myself riding an assisted mountain bike
up a logging road. I can also see myself coming down
that same road, stuck to the grill of a Kenworth.
Certainly not devoting the hour and a half each way
it would take to ride to work, even with the assist
blasting at full-throttle the whole way, which I
know would take more battery than most assisted
bicycles can carry.
What about my wife, you ask? She likes her Honda.
She also likes her Suzuki 650. If I want to play with
electrics, that's cool, she may ride hers or pack on
mine if she wants, but she's got her own bike. She'd
ride in an electric car/truck if I had one, so long as
she didn't end up pushing it up the last hill.
So -- I can build a motorcycle. Outside of thinking
that an Etek would be a good motor for it, I really
don't have a clue as to controllers, batteries, and
an onboard charger. I also don't have a feeling for
whether Thompson Rivers University can be talked
into providing a charging opportunity, but that seems
like a socially responsible thing to do.
I do know that it'll need a DC-DC converter to run
lights, siren, and beer fridge :) -- and I'd like to put a
charger onboard so I can just run an extension cord
to the sled and plug it in to BC Hydro.
Did I say the money thing was chronic? Batteries
made with costalotium are out. Is there a large
disconnect between vision and reality here? Left
unanswered at this point is whether it can be
insured -- ICBC only seems to recognise NEVs and
assist bikes or scooters limited to 30 km/h. Not fast
enough. Still I hear one of the VEVA guys just got
an electric motorcycle past ICBC, so maybe there's
hope.
That's about enough for now -- I'd welcome any
input and ideas!
Chuck Hays
PNWBS/SENS/DoD/IBA
Deadline Riders MC
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Peter, in light of this discussion,
>
> I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
> why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
> used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
>
> This appears to offer far supperior cornering support.
The advantage of tilting is that you can get the same cornering ability in
a narrower track.
THe disadvantage is that you have to use tires that have a rounded cross
section (like motorcycle tires), so that they can maintain their contact
patch at a variety of lean angles.
Non leaning vehicles can use tires with a flat cross section (think Indy
500 tires).
If you can design the vehicle so that it can't pull enough G's during
cornering to roll over, then there is no need to lean.
Modern racecars don't generally have to worry about roll overs so there is
no need for the added complexity.
The reason you see leaning 3wh is because they often have a design
constraint that can lead to roll overs. For example: limited width, or
high center of gravity.
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I noticed my meter showed 93% after a charge that's low. It was a little
cold and windy here in San Francisco. About 60° and charge ended maybe 3
hours before the run. I did a ten mile run, came back,the pack a little
lower than normal and measured all my batteries. Some were around 6.1 many
were at 6.15 some at 6.19. Two were at 6.06. Is this a problem?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
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Chuck Hays wrote:
Hello...
...
1. A motorcycle that can go into town and back home
on one charge. Tall order. 70 km/h, for at least 100 km.
...
Did I say the money thing was chronic? Batteries
made with costalotium are out. Is there a large
disconnect between vision and reality here?
Welcome to the list Chuck.
Based on these two contradictory conditions, I'm afraid it is.
Compromise and give up one of the two (or both a little)
and keep iterating until the gap between dream and reality
closes to zero. Else you'll just set yourself to a failure
and disappointment.
Strictly technically what you want is doable.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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It's amazing that a 3 wheeler with small tires, and an economy car
front suspension, could handle so well!
quoted anonymously:
> Car & Driver, Motor Trend, and Road and Track test drivers, drove
> and
> reviewed the Trihawk. Not a theoretical discussion, several road
> tests with
> stop watches, 4th wheels, and other instruments..
> Read the results here:
> http://designmassif.com/trihawk/articles/index.htm
> Why argue facts and data? One article reported an understeered
> skid pad
> figure of .83 exceeded only by a Ferrari Boxer, a Lamborghini
> Countach, BMW M1, and Porche 930 Turbo.
Here's a gendanken experiment to help understand the weight savings:
Suppose you have a unibody rectangular 4 wheel car body 6 feet wide,
4 feet tall, and 15 feet long for a surface area of 348 sq. ft. Now
slice it from the front corners to the middle of the rear, and put it
together as a tadpole triangular body. You have cut away 1/2 of the
roof and 1/2 of the floor. The body is now 258 sq. ft. 258/348 = 74%.
Now get rid of one of the four wheels and suspension, and you have
75% of the wheel+suspension weight. You can now have a motor that is
3/4 the power for the same acceleration, so figure 75% of the
powertrain weight. I can believe the 25% weight savings number. In
reality, you could save even more weight, since the body doesn't need
to be as strong against torsional twisting. The compromise you have
made here is you have 1/2 the interior volume for 25% weight savings
-- so we won't be seeing any 3 wheeler moving vans any time soon. :)
Autocrossers have a name for people that hang the tail to corner:
Last place! :) For racing on pavement that is rarely the fastest way
around a turn. Exceptions are when you need to turn the car tighter
than the steering wheel can, like going around a 180 degree cone.
It's a totally different story on dirt or snow, though.
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
...
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
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Peter VanDerWal wrote:
If you can design the vehicle so that it can't pull enough G's during
cornering to roll over, then there is no need to lean.
Modern racecars don't generally have to worry about roll overs so there is
no need for the added complexity.
I see. I just know this is being done, and thought an idea has
perfect merit. One example (sorry, longish URL):
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0,,0-5-7182-1-390021-1-0-0-348452-0-0-135-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-1,00.html
Scroll down to multimedia (right bottom) Tokyo Motor Show
and watch the movie in action how this is being done.
Tilting outside (to the turn) wheels on which is almost
all the weight during cornering, is done, but he tires shown
aren't rounded as for motorcycles. Apparently it is not a
requirement - I bet these Germans know very well what they are doing.
The reason you see leaning 3wh is because they often have a design
constraint that can lead to roll overs. For example: limited width, or
high center of gravity.
Yes, F-300 is a good example of this.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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On Mon, 1 Aug 2005 10:26:30 -0700 (PDT), Edward Ang
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I hope some ICE gurus could shine some light on this.
>It is possible to modify a normal Otto cycle ICE to
>run Atkinson cycle? The Prius uses late intake valve
>closing (LIVC) to achieve this by decreasing
>compression ratio and increasing expansion ratio. It
>trades peak power for thermal efficiency.
Yes you can but it involves a bit more than just the cam. There have
been some very good SAE papers in the last 5 years on the topic. I
believe Toyota's designers published one recently on the Prius engine.
You can do a bibliographic search on SAE's web site
(http://www.sae.org) but the papers are fairly expensive. You can buy
them at sae.org or better, go to an SAE depository library (Ga Tech in
this area) and read/copy them for free.
The major obstacle to this, like most all engine mods, is that there
are no magic formulae. Given that you don't have the proprietary
engine simulators that all the auto companies have, it takes much
experimental work on the dyno to optimize a given engine. This, of
course, requires a dyno. That in itself isn't a large obstacle
considering that the prius already has a nice electrical load, AKA
generator built in. But it DOES have to be set up, calibrated,
optionally automated and then actually used.
I built a manually operated dyno to investigate just one phenomena
(exhaust boosted supercharging in a 2 stroke engine) as a high school
science fair project. It took one year to work out the dyno and
another to investigate my subject matter. Manually stabilizing a dyno
environment and then manually recording readings is excruciating.
Automation is almost a must if one is to not lose sight of the goal.
Especially if one is also working or going to school.
In the mid 70s I developed a high mileage package for the Datsun 280Z
that used elements of the Atkins cycle. I didn't appreciate the cycle
back then. It seemed logical to gain mileage by reducing pumping
losses and late intake valve closing is a logical method. My package
used this, lean burn and high intake manifold pressure, among others,
to achieve remarkable mileage (high 30s) without much power loss.
Especially remarkable in those pre-microprocessor days.
It took me literally months to work out this package using rented dyno
time and I was an experienced race engine designer. Figure on a year
or more starting from scratch. Probably "more".
If I were to start such a project like this right now, I'd forget
about engine re-design. I'd piggyback on all those $$$millions$$$
already spend in R&D. I'd select a small lean burn engine and then
experimentally determine where in the operating envelope the best BSFC
and then operate it there. Modern engines are remarkably efficient
and clean at their best BSFC point. Emissions are low enough that
they are not practical to measure in real-time. Both economy and
emissions will be far better than anything you can hope to achieve at
home in a realistic amount of time and money.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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I ran across this on ebay, and thought that somebody here might be interested.
Check it out:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4566310584
Thanks!
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I just noticed that the Solectria S-10 on ebay has the following text in its
description:
This truck also has a Hughes MagnaCharge inductive charger port located behind
the front license plate mount.
How did Solectria get one of these? Do all Solectria conversions have one of
these (even most)? Is there anyway for me to get one?
Thanks!
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Is that really such an issue? Like the worn out SLA here, I can try to
charge it and it's not going to get additional capacity. As far as I
know there is no known good procedure for reviving it. If there were
any suggestions I could try those first and see if they change
anything. So any observation of additional capacity following the
pulser use should be a positive result, provided the capacity persists
over time.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
All of these should qualify as worn-out and abused batteries. It also
sounds like they may have failed from different kinds of abuse; the
first from many charge/discharge cycles, the second from sitting idle
too long, and the third from *both* too many cycles and sitting idle.
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> 1. A motorcycle that can go into town and back home
> on one charge. Tall order. 70 km/h, for at least 100 km.
Given your requirements, I don't believe this is possible.
Might be possible if your pockets were deep enough to afford Lithium
Polymer batteries.
Might be possible with an enclosed streamlined body and regen braking.
Neither option is cheap and the second one isn't easy.
The problem is that motorcycles, by nature, can't hold many batteries and
have terrible aerodynamics. The most aerodynamic motorcycle available
today is probably worse that the worst car available.
> 2. A motorcycle that can go into town and recharge for
> the homeward leg within six hours. 70 km/h for 50 km.
70km/h for 30km is easy...on flat ground. For 50 km over numerous hills?
Not going to be easy or cheap. A good regen system could help, but I
still don't think you could fit in enough lead. The other battery
options, even NiCad, are relatively expensive.
> 3. A motorcycle that stays pretty close to home. Our
> nearest store is 25 km away, so unless it's the same as
> #2 above it's just a fun toy that doesn't really "do
> anything." Still, a tire-burning bobber like "Amp Hog"
> would be cool and could be trailered (get thee behind
> me...) to places to ride.
If you are able to build a custom frame like Amp Hog, then that is
definitely the way to go.
> 4. Let's get off the pavement. I have hundreds of
> kilometres of logging roads right behind the house.
> Something that has the power and traction to get
> up there, say up to 30 km round trip, would be at
> least marginally useful. Regenerative braking would
> be useful -- it's as far down as it is up. If yer gonna
> trailer it, might as well ride somewhere with scenery.
Regen braking is generally more expensive. Coasting down hills is almost
as beifitial and (usually) free.
> 5. An EV truck -- it's bigger, it's harder to keep out
> of the way of the other vehicles in the stable. It
> requires more storage room. It would need to at
> least match #2 above and haul a load besides. Too
> much like work -- I'd rather have a motorcycle.
While more expensive, building a truck that could meet #2 or even #1 is
possible using Lead-Acid batteries and standard (non-regen)
motor+controllers.
Look up "Red Beasty" This is a converted Toyota Pickup with a range of
almost 200km at speeds in excess of 70km (around 100km?) including some
hills.
> Did I say the money thing was chronic? Batteries
> made with costalotium are out.
The Red Beasty used cheap GolfCart batteries, however, it used a LOT of
them. It's pack would probably cost about $2500(US).
However, you don't really need that much range, so you could probably live
with a standard size pack at about 1/2 that cost. Though #1 might be
pushing the range of this, #2 is easily within range. Still you can
always coast down hills and that can help a lot on the range.
If you only need 50km range at 70km, then you could go with a small car
with a 96V pack of GC batteries, umm maybe $1,000 for the battery pack.
This would also get by with a cheaper/smaller motor & controller.
> Is there a large
> disconnect between vision and reality here? Left
> unanswered at this point is whether it can be
> insured -- ICBC only seems to recognise NEVs and
> assist bikes or scooters limited to 30 km/h. Not fast
> enough. Still I hear one of the VEVA guys just got
> an electric motorcycle past ICBC, so maybe there's
> hope.
There are numerous EVs registered in Canada. Are the requires in BC
different from the rest of Canada?
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On Mon, 01 Aug 2005 11:55:52 -0700, "John G. Lussmyer"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>At 10:16 PM 7/31/2005, Lee Hart wrote:
>>I pulled out my AMP catalog for an example. Their nickel and
>>nickel-plated copper terminals are trademarked "Strato-Therm". They look
>>just like normal crimpable ring terminals, and come in both uninsulated
>>and insulated versions (the insulated ones use Teflon).
>
>I just tried the AMP website.
>Not only do they have one of the worst search systems I have ever
>seen, the Strato-Therm parts don't even come in the size I need, with
>the hole I need.
>I did find some plain copper terminals that match, but they can't
>tell me if any exist, or what they cost.
Why don't you try Omega Engineering? They have a whole catalog of
heating elements and accessories. Their prices are somewhat high but
you don't really care in this quantity.
Another company to check with is Watlow Engineering. Their speciality
is custom heating elements. I'd be very surprised if they didn't
carry a full line of high temperature nickel terminals.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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