EV Digest 4552
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: More Battery Discussion
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Thoughts on Range
by John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Power requirement for "faster than an electric car" performance
by "Jamie Marshall \(GAMES\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: E-Meter Questions
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: DCP T-Rex and DC/DC in closed space?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: E-Meter Questions (woes)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) ev mower
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Solectria S-10, differential?
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 4 wheel tilting (Re: tilting, Re: Racing 3wheels,)
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Newbie: Bikes and Like That (a tad long)
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: E-Meter Questions
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Thoughts on Range
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: E-Meter Questions
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: ev mower
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Solectria S-10, differential?
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Insight battery pic / Thunder Sky question
by Martin Klingensmith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Power requirement for "faster than an electric car" performance
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Accessories
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: 1221 Controller repair& upgrade by Logisystems
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Thoughts on Range
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Accessories
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Battery de-sulfation
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: PWM Controller for motor and charging?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
Dennis wrote:
Has anyone put Odyssey Batteries in their vehicle?
Any comments?
I saw some of these at the Power of DC and talked to a guy who was
getting them surplus. Basically Hawker Genesis 26ah batteries (and
possibly 42ah) with heavier duty inter-cell interconnects.
Which is nice, but not screamingly needed for my kind of application
(100a max draw). Still when I blow my pack I will probably order a set
of these instead of normal Genesis batteries.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:08 AM 8/3/2005, you wrote:
Why do you need to keep Optimas at all?
I'm not. I was just comparing the BB600 pack that I am planning on using,
to the "normal" Optima YT pack that a Sparrow uses.
I'm kind of wondering if I'll get much of a range improvement with the
BB600 cells.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My 1221B repair and upgrade to 144vdc will be using 35 56amp fets. Will be
totally silent. Will see 1900 amps for 250ms. Will be 900 amps maximum.
They count on 150 amps continuous on level ground. Jim at Logixsystems
prides himself on making a tough controller out of the Curtis line. I'll
post to the list about my success or failure with this controller. Thanks to
the Zappy list for this information. It is going to cost me 750 dollars.
Craig (Deafscooter) take note.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
12 miles is the longest round trip. And it's occasional, so I don't see
needing more than 15 to 20 miles range. Why 25?
Larger voltage with more (smaller) batteries is exactly what I'm
thinking. I was hoping someone would chime in with an opinion of
running a very tall string of Deka Dominators. Perhaps a fairly small
capacity battery. Say 40ah. Put 18 of those in a string and you have a
216 v system. Nominally 8.4 kwhrs.
If I take a worse case guess of kwh/mile, it would be 350. That would
give me a 24 mile range.
Performance would be limited by battery amps at probably 4c, which would
be 160 battery amps. That's 34.5 kilowatts. (about 45 hp?)
Does that seem reasonable?
Yes, this would be expensive, but I'm wondering about the supposed
extreme durability of these gel cells. Plus I like the idea of many
small batteries, where it becomes easier to pack them into small spaces
in the car.
-Jamie
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 10:01 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Power requirement for "faster than an electric car"
performance
13 batteries in a Cabriolet is different from 13 in a small car. I'm
trying
to find better bigger batteries for just such a setup. It isn't easy.
At
this point I'm thinking that getting the 240v version of the Zilla and
more
batteries is a better option for durabiliy and performance but not for
the
pocket book. If your longest trip is 12 miles you need a 25 mile range.
20
Exides is lookin good. This will insure long battery life and extremely
zippy performance. Lawrence Rhodes........
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cool, what part number fet is going into it? What switching freq is it
using?
Danny
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
My 1221B repair and upgrade to 144vdc will be using 35 56amp fets.
Will be totally silent. Will see 1900 amps for 250ms. Will be 900
amps maximum. They count on 150 amps continuous on level ground. Jim
at Logixsystems prides himself on making a tough controller out of the
Curtis line. I'll post to the list about my success or failure with
this controller. Thanks to the Zappy list for this information. It is
going to cost me 750 dollars. Craig (Deafscooter) take note.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
415-821-3519
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick
BE VERY carfull in installing the E-meter many of us have broken out E-meter
just doing the install.
FIRST it is very clear from the instructions the the shunt shall be the
most negative item in the string. Anyother place will result in instant
destruction of the E-meter.
follow the printed install to the letter.
Madman's added E-meter rules"
NEVER remove the battery negative from the shunt.
The E-meter power negative... and the shunt negative are always hooked
up. don't breaker or fuse these lines.
When you have to rip out the wires. open the MB+ line first, Then the
Shunt + then the Shunt- then the power neg. Always give the meter a drain
back point when disconnecting. Until the last line is the 12 to 40 volt
power feed.
Simple rules, keeps the trusty Meter in one piece.
If possible always feed the meter from a isolated DC/DC converter. The DCP
DC2DC had one installed just for this reason.
Yes you CAN battery tap... but should the batteries that supply the tap
open, you could get a entire pack voltage across a 40 volts peak input. And
Poof.
BE very carfull...assume you are powering up a PC and you don't want to
glitch the Micro. Once that's understood the rest is simple.
I have 2 meters in operation, and on has the serial number
"Manzanita" hand written on it by the guys that designed it.
Rich Rudman
Waiting for 7+ megs to down load on my dial up....sigh....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Viera" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 3:01 PM
Subject: E-Meter Questions
> Hi everyone,
>
> Well, I _finally_ got an E-meter :-) Two quick questions:
>
> 1) Does the E-meter's shunt have to be inserted in the wiring to the
> negative side of the battery pack or can I insert it on the positive
> side of the battery pack?
>
> 2) As a very temporary solution, would it be okay to power the E-meter
> by tapping off 24 volts from a section of the traction battery pack? I
> know this could cause EQ problems in the series string, but my main
> concern is whether doing this will hurt the E-meter or not?
>
> I can't wait to get this E-meter going so I can get some real solid data
> regarding my Jeep's energy usage and such...
>
> Thanks,
>
> --
> -Nick
> http://Go.DriveEV.com/
> 1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
> ---------------------------
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At first I was a bit peaved....
Then I did a memeory refresh cycle into my Mechatronics Fan catalog.
And found that I needed to up date my data...
A good 120 mm fan can get close to 100 CFM... not 400
The best 119 mm fan is 130 CFM... As I recall the fan DCP used was just over
100 CFM in free air.
So... the Raptors and T-Rexes need about 100 CFM of air....not 400 That
would take....
A 254mm by 89 mm(10.0 by 3.5 inch fan Sucking 35 watts of power. and giveing
547 CFM in Free air.
Stall is .40 inches of water pressure, and 250 CFM is .15 in H20
400 CFM is at .08 in H20...of not much back pressure at all.
Keep in mind the 75KVA charger I am designing is going to take over 1000
CFM, At the present Design point. My power budget for cooling is 2000 watts
of fans and pumps....
Yikes!!!
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, August 02, 2005 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: DCP T-Rex and DC/DC in closed space?
> Ben Apollonio wrote:
> > 400CFM from a 120mm fan? I'm a bit skeptical...
>
> The advertised CFM ratings for fans are mostly marketing hype. They are
> just telling you the airflow under totally nonrestricted conditions;
> like hanging from a string in free air.
>
> As soon as you place the fan in any kind of box or add any kind of
> screen or other restriction, the airflow drops. With propeller type
> fans, it drops substantially.
>
> If you're trying to ventilate your car, where there is always
> significant wind pressure from outside and significantly restricted air
> vent openings, you need to use a squirrel-cage type of fan.
>
> To see if the fan is big enough, measure the temperature difference
> between the intake air and exhaust air. The temperature rise should be
> under 40 deg.F if you are moving enough air. For example, 70 deg.F air
> going in, and 110 deg.F at the exhaust.
> --
> *BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick, the prices are on the web site, and haven't changed
from day one (just fluctuate with currency exchange rate).
David, I think Lee was referring to only Link 10 e-meter, not
"an" emeter in general.
Yes, BRUSA Ah counter *is* designed for EV from ground up.
It is totally isolated from the pack, the shunt can be installed
anywhere without damage, need a few mA of house 12V to operate,
consumes 1-2mA from the pack to run conversion circuit.
No prescalers (covers 6...500V in one shot), no DC-DC converters.
Has half-pack tap input (if you want to take advantage of it)
so allows to detect the difference between both halves (e.g.
any battery problem), Etc, etc.
Yes, because of all this + Swiss made (not in China) it cost couple
of hundred more - no one expects it to cost the same. Yet, how many
people here care? Convinced people is stubborn, you know :-)
They will come up with unbelievable solution to save a buck *now*.
Just re-read this Steve's passage:
============
I;ve done this but only becuse I didn;t have a dc to dc converter handy,
I would have to charge the meter battery once a week and it seemed to
die when I needed it most. all in all best get a dc to dc converter ,...
along these lines , I have though that if you have a few things that
need a isolated supply one could use a inverter to step up the voltage
and then a transformer to bring it back down and isolate it and use some
of the inverted 120ac to run a small fountan pump that people use to
cool there zilla's.
============
(Don't get me wrong Steve, my hat's off to the geniuses of creativity.
It is good, but just so amateurish).
To me frankly it's sad but also funny to read about blown e-meters.
BRUSA counters were (and are) made for a long time and IMHO there is
no better instrument for an EV, but I stopped promoting it (or any
top notch hardware for that matter) on EVDL.
Normally I guess it would takes 2-3 blown e-meters to start
looking for something else, but it is natural inertia like
with ADC motors. e-meter has been used de-facto for long time
by everyone thus must be so good that common impression is that
nothing else worth considering. Or people just dislike Euro stuff
for no real reason (is it "made not here syndrome?), I can't
explain it. I'm happy with my Ah counter.
Since anyone has this option, honestly, I don't care; if people don't
use it, they must have their reasons. All I can see is that many are
just missing out and could be far better of with AH counter, but just
talking about it again and again changes nothing.
Victor
Nick Austin wrote:
On Wed, Aug 03, 2005 at 02:05:47AM -0400, David Roden wrote:
On 2 Aug 2005 at 22:56, Lee Hart wrote:
You have to understand that the E-meter wasn't designed for EVs.
But the Brusa meters are not as cheap as the E-meter, so ...
Do you know how much they are?
Perhaps Victor sells them?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
have been doing a little on my mower project , can be seen at
www.grassroots.com under projects. well I got a amp meter on , and the deck
working so what , still got a bad bearing in one spindle. the 8 in net gain
motor pulls 80 amp just sitting there with the hydro's spinning and driving
it around don't use much more if any , this is with 36 , and is almost the
same at 48v just everything spins faster. 36v seems right . when I engage
the deck amp draw is up to 130 and cutting some grass I saw 150 to 180 amps
. This is more than I though , :-( still I'm not giving up , just need to
add more batteries , and a controller . Maybe the 8 is just to big a motor
. if at 36v I need 180 amps then at 120v ( that's only 400lbs of bats ,
little more that what 6 golfers weight) my current draw might be 60 and I
should get 1/2 hour mowing , so still looks like it could work. The other
thing is charging it from my truck , which I've been thinking of a few ways
to do. 1 a pfc 50 charger . 2 load up the truck with more batteries ( 240+
of golf carters ) split the pack and dump to mower ( this would throw my
truck pack out but I could switch back and forth from the 2 1/2s and keep it
balanced. , 3 have a contactor with Anderson plug and plug mower in so that
the mower pack is in line with truck pack except backwards so mower pack
charges while truck pack discharges, this way I could charge at 100 amps
just by driving and pushing the go peddle , I would have to have a meter
inside the truck so I could see the mower pack voltage and not over charge
them while driving between jobs .. the problem with this is that I only
use a few ah to drive between jobs so I would only be putting a few ah back
in the mower as I drive to the next job .
Steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>From what I know, the limitations of a straight bevel-gear arrangement as
opposed to a hypoid gear setup:
1.) Noisier (as you know) this is because of the way that the gear teeth
mesh more 'directly' without the smooth sliding engagement of the hypoid
gears.
2.) Does not handle as much horsepower - (related to above) There is less
gear tooth contact area engaged at any one time.
And for general knowledge- The hypoid gear design is also favored for rear
wheel drive vehicles because the lower placement of the pinion gear (and
drive shaft) allows for less of a floor hump in the passenger compartment.
Richard Rau
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:00 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
Christopher Robison wrote:
> I wonder who made that part for them...
I think someone on this list worked for Solectria at the time.
> is this design more ordinary on modern cars than I'm aware?
No. Considering most cars anymore are front wheel drive. Trucks,
SUV's, etc all use the standard differentials which we're used to
seeing.
I have to wonder though what the limitations of the type used in the
Solectria are though. I bet it wouldn't be to hard to cause it to
fail catastrophically...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The difference in F-400 case is degree of camber change - nearly 20
degree. Also, note, rear non-steering wheel tilts as well.
Victor
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I'm far from being a racing head, so may be you can tell
why tilting during cornering (changing caster angle) isn't
used for 4 wheel race cars. Jsut because of complexity?
It *is* used. Turn the front wheels of your car all the way in one
direction and look; they lean the top of the wheel toward the inside of
the turn.
They don't lean the entire car like they would a motorcycle because that
would be a lot more complicated. Also, cars don't have enough ground
clearance to tilt the whole body more than a very few degrees.
FWIW not all tilting 3wh lean the body. Many just lean the wheels.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
hope you don't mind being seen with a BMW rider :-).
It's all the same wind, eh! We're just trying
to make the wind smell better so we can enjoy
it more. 'Sides, I had an '81 R100RS that I
got rid of with 125,000 miles on it.
So far the Etek motor looks good for me too ... I'm
thinking a small (250ish) full-faired bike, with
a somewhat sporty riding position but reasonably
narrow tyres ... a (Ninja 250 / EX250 / GPX250) or
a Suzuki GSXF250 Across or similar, for example.
I've given some thought to a design like the
Ebike folks used: a diesel/electric parallel
hybrid with a 220cc diesel and one of their
brushless DC motors. Very much like the Honda
Civic Hybrid in concept. I talked with Dan
Sodomski a couple of years ago and they were
great guns for the project, but I guess they
were having some trouble attracting a group
of testrider/investors and put the project
on the shelf. I recall they were talking about
an OTD price of US$5,000 for the finished bike,
though they were looking for a beta-test crew
to come on a few thousand higher than that to
fund their startup. They were talking 85 mph
top speed and around 150 mpg economy at the time.
Assuming I can fit enough batteries into it, anyway.
Full-faired because I think the batteries are kind
of ugly, and for streamlining.
Nothing against a fairing. The eBike was faired.
I like that open, "agricultural" look, but I also
know what that means in the way of aerodynamics.
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
The fellow from VEVA (are you a member yet?)...
Next thing on my list -- part of the "tuition"
of this particular school, and a good way to
support folks who are doing some sterling work.
I think the main thing he had to do "extra" was to take it to a certified
garage to have it inspected.
I've checked out the requirements in pretty close
detail. The only way to tell for sure now is just
to go through the process and keep jumping hoops
until they give me the OK. I know one of the local
inspectors fairly well -- he does the provincial
inspections and gave me a good insight into just
what *exactly* he needs to see in the way of
equipment. No surprises. The federal inspection
is done at Canadian Tire, and they're pretty much
just looking to see if the provincial guy did his
stuff, is my experience with two vehicles and one
motorcycle. (The other motorcycle is over 15 years
old and falls outside the inspection protocol.)
I imagine once the inspections are done ICBC pretty
much has to string along. I see on the VEVA website
that there's a contact in Van with ICBC who can
advise brokers in the outlands. It begins to look
like this project may move ahead after all.
Randy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> at Canadian Electric Vehicles on Vancouver
Island...
You might want to give him a call or email and ask about his latest
motorcycle conversion (72V,
sep-ex). He was quite impressed with its
performance.
Thanks! I appreciate the pointer. I may be bound
out to Vic in October for a few days. If so, I
may have the opportunity to look around a little.
I also hear Princess Auto in Kelowna (where I'll
be next week) has some "interesting" stuff for
EV folks -- I know finding anything EV here in
Kamloops is impossible. On that, I'll keep the
list posted.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is a sure way to cause an equalization problem in any
configuration. Even though the current consumption is small, normal
charge cycles have little ability to restore it to the pack it is
running off of. Only an equalizing cycle, which overcharges the other
batteries, can recharge what is taken out of the tapped pack. Well,
that or taking the backs out of series and charging them independently
or in parallel.
Now correct me if I'm wrong but logically if the meter is constructed
this way then disconnecting the shunt from ground, with the shunt still
connected to the battery and the e-meter and the e-meter's still sharing
that ground, this would also result in frying the electronics if there
is any load still connected from the ground to the positive side of the
battery.
Danny
Rich Rudman wrote:
Yes you CAN battery tap... but should the batteries that supply the tap
open, you could get a entire pack voltage across a 40 volts peak input. And
Poof.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
--- John Lussmyer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 11:08 AM 8/3/2005, you wrote:
> >Why do you need to keep Optimas at all?
>
> I'm not. I was just comparing the BB600 pack that I
> am planning on using,
> to the "normal" Optima YT pack that a Sparrow uses.
> I'm kind of wondering if I'll get much of a range
> improvement with the
> BB600 cells.
>
From the extra and stiffer voltage plus the deeper
discharge I'd bet about 20% better in the summer and
40% better in the winter. Losing the 100lbs should
help some too.
Too bad you couldn't put 2 strings in there.
I assume you will have good access for watering
them and after commisioning them, undercharge 4 out of
5 cycles to keep watering needs, work low. Charged
that way you will probably only need watering once a
month or so.
I only charged my smaller ones once a week so
watering was rare! It's great not having to charge
them after every trip without losing cap.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
Perhaps Victor sells them?
Yes.
http://metricmind.com/counter.htm
I'm not sure how that price compares to an E-meter's, but remember that the
Brusa counters don't need a prescaler or DC:DC converter (they operate at
any pack voltage between 15 and 500 volts).
You're right. 6V mentioned in my previous post was for display.
(I went by my memory). So the pack voltage must be at least 15V.
Also they are made in
Switzerland, not China or Taiwan.
*That* doesn't sell very well.
I think they max out at 500 amps, since they're mainly meant for AC drive
vehicles, but if you need more you can just use a double-current shunt and
double the readings. Victor can give you more info on that.
No, you use (and BRUSA makes) different shunt. 200A shunt will
work to 500A, 500A shunt will work to 2,500A and so on.
Any shunt works up to 2.5x of its rated value.
You program shunt factor in (or order preprogrammed counter),
so the readings are always true, no need to multiply anything.
Also, they can make custom shunt value for you if satandard
ones do not cover your needs for some reason.
I have the earlier version of this counter, the BC-29.
BCM2xx are similar.
How do you like it?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have a Friendly Robotics Robomower. Neat little toy. A few bugs but
remarkably enough it does the job.
Danny
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
have been doing a little on my mower project , can be seen at
www.grassroots.com under projects. well I got a amp meter on , and the
deck working so what , still got a bad bearing in one spindle. the 8
in net gain motor pulls 80 amp just sitting there with the hydro's
spinning and driving it around don't use much more if any , this is
with 36 , and is almost the same at 48v just everything spins faster.
36v seems right . when I engage the deck amp draw is up to 130 and
cutting some grass I saw 150 to 180 amps . This is more than I though
, :-( still I'm not giving up , just need to add more batteries ,
and a controller . Maybe the 8 is just to big a motor . if at 36v I
need 180 amps then at 120v ( that's only 400lbs of bats , little more
that what 6 golfers weight) my current draw might be 60 and I should
get 1/2 hour mowing , so still looks like it could work. The other
thing is charging it from my truck , which I've been thinking of a few
ways to do. 1 a pfc 50 charger . 2 load up the truck with more
batteries ( 240+ of golf carters ) split the pack and dump to mower (
this would throw my truck pack out but I could switch back and forth
from the 2 1/2s and keep it balanced. , 3 have a contactor with
Anderson plug and plug mower in so that the mower pack is in line with
truck pack except backwards so mower pack charges while truck pack
discharges, this way I could charge at 100 amps just by driving and
pushing the go peddle , I would have to have a meter inside the truck
so I could see the mower pack voltage and not over charge them while
driving between jobs .. the problem with this is that I only use a
few ah to drive between jobs so I would only be putting a few ah back
in the mower as I drive to the next job .
Steve clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, I imagine that (all else being equal) a bevel gear would be
stronger and would generate less heat and lower case and bearing stresses.
That particular differential might be easy to break, but that I think
would just be from the strength/weight/cost compromise they made for that
unit, not the bevel gear in principle.
What I'm curious about is why differentials are made with hypoid gears --
is it only to lower the driveshaft with respect to the bottom of the car,
or is there another reason? If I'm wrong and a hypoid gear is indeed
stronger, then that would explain why bevel gears aren't used in
motorsports; otherwise I have no idea.
--chris
Ryan Stotts said:
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>> is this design more ordinary on modern cars than I'm aware?
>
> No. Considering most cars anymore are front wheel drive. Trucks,
> SUV's, etc all use the standard differentials which we're used to
> seeing.
>
> I have to wonder though what the limitations of the type used in the
> Solectria are though. I bet it wouldn't be to hard to cause it to
> fail catastrophically...
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ah, thanks -- the point about contact area makes sense. I had missed this
post, while responding a moment ago.
--chris
Richard Rau said:
>>From what I know, the limitations of a straight bevel-gear arrangement as
> opposed to a hypoid gear setup:
> 1.) Noisier (as you know) this is because of the way that the gear teeth
> mesh more 'directly' without the smooth sliding engagement of the hypoid
> gears.
> 2.) Does not handle as much horsepower - (related to above) There is
> less
> gear tooth contact area engaged at any one time.
>
> And for general knowledge- The hypoid gear design is also favored for rear
> wheel drive vehicles because the lower placement of the pinion gear (and
> drive shaft) allows for less of a floor hump in the passenger compartment.
>
> Richard Rau
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
> Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2005 11:00 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Solectria S-10, differential?
>
> Christopher Robison wrote:
>
>> I wonder who made that part for them...
>
> I think someone on this list worked for Solectria at the time.
>
>
>> is this design more ordinary on modern cars than I'm aware?
>
> No. Considering most cars anymore are front wheel drive. Trucks,
> SUV's, etc all use the standard differentials which we're used to
> seeing.
>
> I have to wonder though what the limitations of the type used in the
> Solectria are though. I bet it wouldn't be to hard to cause it to
> fail catastrophically...
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Jukka Järvinen wrote:
I guess you are not going to use them in Prius anyway...
but for 21 kw battery power the ~200 V nominal requires ~100 A
discharge. I would not consider to use nothing less than 100 AH cells
in it. TS batteries are not designed to deliver power so much with
long life. Other vice 50 AH cells could be used too but life will be
around 500 cycles (50 % cpasity left). And in Prius you are geting
those cycles quite nicely.
- Electric bicycle.
- I don't have nearly enough money to buy them anyway
- I have knowledge of the BM system required
- I could build a system for a few $ per cell
--
Martin K
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--- Begin Message ---
Jamie Marshall wrote:
> 12 miles is the longest round trip. And it's occasional, so I don't see
> needing more than 15 to 20 miles range. Why 25?
If your trip is 12 miles and your pack is only good for 15, that's
quite a massive drain on your pack and will potentially shorten the
packs life. If you had a 25 mile pack and only drove it 12 miles,
that would only drain it ~50% for good battery life.
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--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> If you have a 200v+ battery, how do you get 12v power to run the horn,
> headlights, radio, etc? Do people put in a separate 12v battery or use
> some sort of buck converter or inverter to get the voltage down?
You need to use what is referred to as a "DC/DC Converter" to tap the
200+ volt pack and get 12 volts from it:
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/dc-dc.shtml
---
Picture it like this for an example:
Take an existing gasoline powered car. Replace the gas motor with an
electric motor. Replace the fuel tank with a battery back. Now take
the DC/DC and connect it to the battery pack and potentially connect
it to the existing battery that was used with the gasoline car. This
way, all the existing electrical will still work. An alternative to
this is to replace the gas cars old battery with the DC/DC and hook it
up the same and everything still works just as it did before.
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--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 3, 2005, at 11:20 AM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
My 1221B repair and upgrade to 144vdc will be using 35 56amp fets.
Will be totally silent. Will see 1900 amps for 250ms. Will be 900
amps maximum. They count on 150 amps continuous on level ground. Jim
at Logixsystems prides himself on making a tough controller out of the
Curtis line. I'll post to the list about my success or failure with
this controller. Thanks to the Zappy list for this information. It is
going to cost me 750 dollars. Craig
Please keep us informed. I would be interested in such a modified
Curtis 1221B controller. How do I contact Logixsystems? I have a spare
Curtis 1221B and an EV Buggy :-)
Paul "neon" G.
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I will be *extremely* interested in your results, as I'm thinking of
replacing the Prizm's pack with 250-300 of these batteries. Popping up
the voltage a bit would be nice, but more importantly one can run the
car for a true 40ah. If I tried to do that with the 52ah Hawkers, they
would die.
My guess is you will get a nice little boost. So far a single string of
30 of these batteries powers my Elec-trak much better than the 5 year
old T105's. It also easily out-performs six Hawker Genesis 26ah
batteries in a 3*2 string (52ah)
It's kind of weird to run the tractor around with a pack of batteries
that small. I can't wait for snow.
Chris
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
John,
Why do you need to keep Optimas at all?
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
I'm going to try running my Sparrow on BB600 NiCd cells. 137 of them
to be exact.
So the pack will be:
NiCd Optima YT
164V 156V (nominal)
452 lbs 558 lbs
~40AH ~45AH (? at 65A)
The NiCd's are a lot stiffer than the YT's. Their voltage stays up
pretty well until the very end. They also don't suffer from Cold
weather nearly as much.
I think I'll get more useable range, since you REALLY don't want to
take the YT's down to 80 or 90% DOD, and the NiCd's don't really
care. (Just don't reverse them.)
(Note that this is a non-trivial conversion, as I'll have to modify
the under-seat battery box.)
Any comments or ideas?
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--- Begin Message ---
Sounds like a good time for you to read Mike Brown's
"Convert It". (;-p
Yes, 12V aux. battery is retained, and for additional
help, plus to recharge the battery, we have a DCDC
converter, meaning 144 (or whatever) volt input, 12V
out.
This is the part of the car that is grounded. The
high voltage pack is "floating".
peace,
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If you have a 200v+ battery, how do you get 12v
> power to run the horn,
> headlights, radio, etc? Do people put in a separate
> 12v battery or use
> some sort of buck converter or inverter to get the
> voltage down?
>
> Danny
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
> A "double blind placebo controlled trial" refers to tests
> involving human subjects.
I agree. We don't need all this for a battery test.
But it helps if the investigator is "blind" (doesn't know which test
data was produced by which charger). Human nature being what it is,
people will inadvertently (or deliberately) "bias" the test when they
know the outcome they want.
For example, you just paid $50 for a miracle battery charger. You want
it to work so your wife won't blame you for wasting money. So, you sorta
lie to yourself about the test results. When you test the new charger,
you don't take careful measurements and exaggerate the benefits. When
you test the old one, you under-estimate its performance.
The cure is a blind test. Have someone else charge the battery, and not
tell you which charger was used. Or put the two chargers in identical
boxes so you don't know which is which. You test it, and evaluate the
results (#1 was better). THEN you find out which one charger #1 is. It
may well turn out #1 is your old chargeg, not the fancy new one that you
hoped would "win".
> To be able to compare the results of a pulser vs a smart charger,
> one would have to conduct two experiments, each involving
> identically sulfated batteries, each experiment also having a
> control battery to which the same reference treatment was applied,
> probably conventional CV charging.
If I only have a single battery to test, I could cycle it repeatedly
with the same load and charger A. Suppose it yields:
test 1 - 8ah
test 2 - 10ah
test 3 - 11ah
test 4 - 11ah
test 5 - 11ah
It improved a bit at first (probably just from being exercised), then
stabilized at 11ah.
Now I try charger B.
test 6 - 10ah
test 7 - 11ah
test 8 - 12ah
test 9 - 11ah
test 10 - 11ah
If I only did one test, I might conclude charger B was worse. But one
test is almost meaningless.
If I only did 2 tests, I might conclude that charger B was the same. But
again, 2 is a very small number of tests.
If I did 3 tests, I might conclude that charger B was better. I see a
trend now, showing constant improvement. I might conclude charger B was
great! And stop there, to avoid getting any data that contradicts my
opinion.
But then test 9 and 10 go right back where we started. On average, it
appears that charger B is essentially the same as A.
The truth is that we don't have enough samples to decide anything
conclusively. With just one battery and so few tests, there would have
to be a *large* improvement in tests 6-10 to convince me that charger B
was really better.
> Before this experiment could be set up, one would have to develop a
> method of identically sulfating many batteries - certainly an unknown
> technique at the present.
"Identical" would be great; but it's impractical. Our best bet is to get
a string of batteries from an old EV, so they are all the same type,
same age, and have gone through the same number of cycles. They won't be
identical, but they will be close. By running a few cycles on each of
them, you can sort out any oddballs that have some sort of exceptional
difference from the rest.
If your "improved" charger is really enough better to be worthwhile, it
will make enough difference to overcome the natural differences between
batteries.
> A more rational approach for such a situation with so many
> uncontrollable variables is to collect a body of, to use your term,
> "anecdotal" evidence (the correct term when data is supplied is
> empirical, I think) such that trends can be seen.
The trouble with anecdotal evidence is that it tends to be incomplete,
inconsistent, and unreliable. Most of it is just opinions, with no
actual data at all.
> After all, it is this same type of large body of empirical evidence
> that makes all of us "know" that a smart multi-stage charger makes
> batteries last longer. After all, no large scale, control-referenced
> experiment has ever been conducted on smart chargers.
Not so. I've worked for several charger manufacturers, and they all
tested thousands of chargers and batteries. Rigorous test results have
been published on every tiny little aspect of batteries and charging.
> We accept that they work because so many people have reported that
> they do. Just like pulse desulfators.
*Not* like pulse desulfators. Commercial battery and charger
manufacturers, and various research organizations have published the
results of controlled, repeatable testing of large numbers of batteries
over their entire cycle life. That have hard evidence that it works. I
can repeat their tests, and confirm their results for myself.
The "pulse people" usually test one sample of some battery in unknown
condition, don't write down any of their numbers, and can't repeat the
test. They report their results as opinions, usually expressed in
advertising and marketing terms ("buy one, it worked great for me!").
The results are described in meaningless techno-babble, in non-peer
reviewed journals where no one checks, or even sees their work.
I'm not saying that pulsers can't work -- it's impossible to prove a
negative. But I am skeptical. I've tested them, and they didn't work.
Sure, there might be conditions where they help. I'm looking for a
description of a repeatable test that will demonstrate that they work,
that can't be explained by other already-known factors. But I haven't
found any yet.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore wrote:
> are the controllers for driving permanent-magnet motors (like the
> Etek) just MOSFET PWM controllers?
Pretty much the same. PM motors have much lower inductance, so the
controller needs to be designed to work with very low inductance motors.
Or, you need to add a physical inductor of 50-100 microhenries so the
controller's current limit will work properly.
> What kind of switching frequency do they use?
Older controllers switched at 1-5 KHz. Newer ones are usually 15-20 KHz
so they make less acoustic noise.
> Also, when recharging batteries at constant current, is it okay to
> PWM or do they need more looking after than that?
You can use PWM for battery charging. The only precaution is that the
ripple current should not be too high or you get excessive battery
heating and overvoltage (particularly near fully charged).
As for the PM motor, you almost certainly will need some added
inductance, as the battery's own inductance is too low to adequately
control the current peaks.
> I'm wondering if the same MOSFET could be asked to do
> both jobs.
Yes, there have been lots of controllers that do both motoring and
regeneration. Roughly speaking, it doubles the number of semiconductors
in the controller, or they need contactors to re-arrange the existing
semiconductors between motor and generator operation.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
