EV Digest 4575
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: New EV bikes?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Now this is small.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New EV bikes?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: What's the motor?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: China's Cyclists Take Charge
by "Nick 'Sharkey' Moore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Motor dynometer
by "M.G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Motor dynometer
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) icebox a/c
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) What is going on? Problems while on the road ...
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.electric-bikes.com/EZ-Hawk.htm Incase you missed it. LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Letton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 2:58 PM
Subject: Re: New EV bikes?
Um...
"Specialized unveiled the bikes at a special media conference in Tokyo
on November 31st."
Last I checked, November didn't have a "31st". Is it maybe like April
1st? ;-)
Andrew
Mark Fowler wrote:
I'm not sure that these bikes exist anywhere except in Verdra H
Ciretop's imagination.
A quick bit of Googling turned up a couple of references to this
article, but nothing else.
I looked on Specialized's web site http://www.specialized.com and
couldn't find anything but normal bikes - even in the New for 2006
section.
Ob. Ev:
So if you were designing an EV bike from scratch (with no requirement to
look anything like a conventional bike) what would you do?
Where would you mount the batts?
How would you attach the motor?
Traditional seating or recumbent?
Pedals or just electric power?
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of reb
Sent: Saturday, 13 August 2005 3:28 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: New EV bikes?
great link rod !!
i would really like one of these
2000 W and100AH would do for me
any one got enough cash here to build one ?
reb
Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just seen these new styles for bicycles and thought
they would be good candidates for EV's. Lots of space
in the frame for batteries.
http://www.mountainbiketales.com/Verdra3.htm
---------------------------------
To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new
Yahoo! Security Centre.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/003112.html
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.electric-bikes.com/others.htm#Betterbikes another URL. Very
interesting. LR>..........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 10:11 AM
Subject: Re: New EV bikes?
I agree with Lee. These bikes are situp bikes. The best bike to convert
to EV status is a recumbent(because of wind resistance) Mikes Better bikes
in Palo Alto has done a few that can be ridden/peddled as far as 200 miles
per day. He'll sell you everything up to and including a fully converted
bicycle. The fairing is the most important part.
http://www.electric-bikes.com/EZ-Hawk.htm LR
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 12, 2005 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: New EV bikes?
Rod Hower wrote:
I just seen these new styles for bicycles and thought
they would be good candidates for EV's. Lots of space
in the frame for batteries.
http://www.mountainbiketales.com/Verdra3.htm
Aerodynamic my foot! :-) Looks more like styling.
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 13 Aug 2005 at 7:17, Roland Wiench wrote:
> You cannot make this flow of energy inside the battery go into two directions
> at the same exact time. You are either charging it or discharging it.
That's correct, but it is ^not^ the same as saying :
> Remember that you cannot use the 12 volt battery at
> the same time you are charging it.
The former statement is true, but immaterial for practical purposes. The
latter statement is carelessly worded and thus can be misleading, and could
confuse a neophyte. Most newbies in the EV world have enough things to
confuse them already! <g>
Most EV beginners - indeed, most of us - would interpret "charging" as
meaning "the charger is connected." Most would also assume that "use" means
"discharging."
The most rudimentary experience will tell you that you CAN "use" a 12 volt
battery, or any other kind for that matter, while you have a charger
connected to it. It should be obvious that if the current demanded is less
than the charger can provide, the battery will be charged; if it is greater,
the battery will be discharged.
An ICE does this every time it's driven. It's also true of any EV that uses
both an accessory battery and a DC:DC converter - and for that matter, of
the the traction battery when it powers a DC:DC or amp-hour counter
continuously.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's more than that. When understanding of electricity was in its
alchemical stages, a convention began that electricity "flows" from
positive to negative. Only later was it discovered that the negative
electron was effectively the working "fluid", and these move from
negative to positive. Generally electrical engineers are resolved to
simply use the positive-to-negative convention, I believe
chemistry/physics people choose to use electron flow. Sometimes it
almost becomes a fistfight.
Anyways, I don't believe your explanation of not being able to charge
and discharge at the same time is valid in any practical sense. A
charger will provide 5 amp current, you put inverter on the battery you
can draw 1 amp, 5 amp, or 50 amps. Sure, it's a discharge if over 5
amps, but I don't think anyone misunderstands that. I hope we're all
past thinking you could put a 5 amp charger on a battery while using 20
amps and expect it to stay charged.
It can confuse a computerized charger though, causing it to switch
states inappropriately. A drop in pack voltage and increase in pack
current will force it into bulk mode, then top-off, then back to float.
If only a brief load on a fully charged battery, this process could
constitute somewhat of an overcharge. Other than that issue, it's
desirable to leave a charger on a battery you are using. Detailed
explanations of chemistry and current flow are unnecessary.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
When I taught Basic Electricity, many students of which some of them are electronic technicians and electrical workers. The electronic tech. would say the electricity flows from Neg to Pos and the electricians said NO, its flows from Pos to Neg. They both corrected in one was thinking inside a battery or generation system and the other was thinking outside the battery or generation system.
Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Most likely he's using a heavy duty automotive charger
on wheels. The 12V/200A setting doesn't mean much on
these, most likely the output is dropping down to much
lower than 12V on all of his testing and probably
isn't putting out near the voltage or current marked
on the charger. There's a good chance there's nothing
wrong with the motor (although maybe there is some
damage due to the fan hitting, or maybe it just needs
to be bent back into place).
Ask him to measure the voltage while doing this test.
Rod
--- Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can look it up on Monday to see what size and such
> if you want me too. Sounds like the fan is a little
> cocked, easy fix. Amps sound good, but it's
> probably a smaller 6 inch I'd bet. Let me know if
> anyone wants me to look into motor size on monday.
> Cya all
> Jim Husted
> Hi-Torque Electric
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> The main item is an 1800A contactor with 48V coil,
> but I wondered about the
> AdvDC motor he'll "throw in" with the contactor:
>
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5606321807
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 2005-08-12, Ryan Stotts wrote:
>
> But don't stop at 60 mph! Take those bikes to the limit! 120 mph on
> a "bicycle" anyone? But don't stop there..
Tell me about it!
(of course, by the time you're doing a lot of speed on it, it
tends to grow fat tyres, a stiff frame, a fairing for wind
protection ... and people tend to mistake your bicycle for a
motorcycle ...)
------sharks
--
Nick 'Sharkey' Moore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <http://zoic.org/sharkey/>
"There is no rule of law until the Mafia needs lawyers." -- Stephen Holmes
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In my EV, my 12 volt system which includes a 145 amp alternator-inverter and a
12 volt 130 AH battery, there are three 12-15 volt meters and three 0 to 100
amp meters.
One meter is between the battery and terminal connection going to the
alternator. Another is between this terminal connection and the vehicle load.
The other is between the alternator and the terminal connection, forming a tee
connection.
When the alternator is not turning or below the excitation RPM, the battery is
providing about 20 amps which shows -20 Amps on the meter. The alternator is a
0 amps and the load is at 20 amps.
When the alternator is turning above the excitation RPM which is about 1100
RPM, then the battery amp meter is
showing a charge of 30 + amps on the meter. The load meter is at 20 amps and
the alternator amperes is 50 amps which is the combination of the two.
Therefore, at this time, the current flow is from the alternator to the battery
and alternator to the load, not from the battery to the load.
When I first started up this alternator-inverter for the first time, I had it
adjusted for 13.5 charger volts which was not enough charge voltage for the
battery of about 5 amps for the short distance I was going. With a load of 50
amps, then the battery did provide the balance of 45 amps and the alternator
provide the 5 amps for the total of 50 amps.
The battery meter was showing -45 amps and the alternator meter was showing 5
amps and the load meter was showing 50 amps.
Therefore the battery was not being charge at this time, because the flow was
from the battery to the load. To charge the battery, the alternator would have
to go against this flow through the battery from the positive plates to the
negative plates.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Danny Miller<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
It's more than that. When understanding of electricity was in its
alchemical stages, a convention began that electricity "flows" from
positive to negative. Only later was it discovered that the negative
electron was effectively the working "fluid", and these move from
negative to positive. Generally electrical engineers are resolved to
simply use the positive-to-negative convention, I believe
chemistry/physics people choose to use electron flow. Sometimes it
almost becomes a fistfight.
Anyways, I don't believe your explanation of not being able to charge
and discharge at the same time is valid in any practical sense. A
charger will provide 5 amp current, you put inverter on the battery you
can draw 1 amp, 5 amp, or 50 amps. Sure, it's a discharge if over 5
amps, but I don't think anyone misunderstands that. I hope we're all
past thinking you could put a 5 amp charger on a battery while using 20
amps and expect it to stay charged.
It can confuse a computerized charger though, causing it to switch
states inappropriately. A drop in pack voltage and increase in pack
current will force it into bulk mode, then top-off, then back to float.
If only a brief load on a fully charged battery, this process could
constitute somewhat of an overcharge. Other than that issue, it's
desirable to leave a charger on a battery you are using. Detailed
explanations of chemistry and current flow are unnecessary.
Danny
Roland Wiench wrote:
>When I taught Basic Electricity, many students of which some of them are
electronic technicians and electrical workers. The electronic tech. would say
the electricity flows from Neg to Pos and the electricians said NO, its flows
from Pos to Neg. They both corrected in one was thinking inside a battery or
generation system and the other was thinking outside the battery or generation
system.
>
>Roland
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I want to do some testing on my forklift motor that will EVentually
land in my Audi as a converted vehicle.
I have taken some voltage measurements on some lift trucks at work but
my coworkers dont seem to understand what I am doing so I want to avoid
that as much as possible.
What I need is a Dynamometer I have an 11" GE motor in two
configurations , one is a separately excited motor and the other is a
series motor. If I connect the two motors together what should I use for
a suitable load on the series motor? I am going to use the sem motor in
the car.
Would it be possible to connect the series motor to the battery pack I
am running the sem motor from as a suitable load like a regen setup? I
know this sounds like perpetual motion but I know that is not possible,
I just want a dyno. If possible any suggestions would be appreciated.
Mike G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HE he he..
Got a Dinner out of it...
That's Ok.... I have watched the Silverbullet for a few years and it just
does NOT rpm the way It should.
Bob Boyd couldn't get it to pull up high... And Tom has had better luck at
lower voltages... less breakage.
It needs a better rear end ratio... or really tall sticky tires, and about
2000 Rpm more grunt.
This is where it gets tricky, Since tires, ratio, and suspension are basic
drag race work... The motors are more in line with what I
Want to be good at.
First we have to find out how bad the battery pack was sagging beyond the
1/8 mile. You can't do much if the lead has given up.
With a single pack of Orbs I think we are a couple watts shy of what we
could use. But adding 600 lbs of lead slows you down if you don't get all of
it to good use.
Unless we have twin strings of Hawkers of some sort I don't think we can
find more watts without a LOT more lead weight.
The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This is the curse of Stock EV
motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull, you add enough volts to
ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for dinner. Sigh... What
next.
Adding timing kills bottom end but lights up the top end. So We have all
the bottom end the tire and suspension can stand... lets put some timing
into this thing. We should hold the old Raptors current limit light on all
the way down to the 1200 ft mark. Well this is a dream of course.. but
it's the goal we need to have in hand to make really good MPH.
Timing is easy...file drills and aLOT of fuss work.
The next trick will be field weakening, That gets spendy. But... it takes up
where timing leaves off.
Timing, tires and Gears... the best bet.
Seeing that they got 15s... The one big battery pack is doing what we all
thought it would. Doing what it can, there is little reason for a double
string of them. I am not sure what flavor would get us better than 200 Kw in
a 560 pound pack. Of couse I don't know how much of that got used, but it
looks like it's doing well. Finding more than 2000 amps and less than 600
lbs is going to be hard to do.
I think we need to stay at this battery setup until we know we are using it
all... and I mean ALL the way down the track.
One of the items that haunts this tripple motor drive is it's huge combined
rotational mass and all themn belts and pulleys a Flanging about in the air.
The sound is cool, but this could be a major limit to the high end
performance. Dropping belts sizes and thining down pulleys... Well that
could help But ... breaking stuff is expensive. Cleaning up the parasitics
is a good thing to do..but it's the hardest and has the least chance of
finding us tens of Horsepower and 1000s of useable RPM. But we should look
into what can be done.
I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in the pulley valleies would
do??? this couldn't be more than a few Hp......Could it?? I think we could
also take about 200 lbs of unstressed metal out of the motor alignment
plates, and pulleys... But... that's machinist time...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> Hello to All,
>
> OK, it's Saturday morning, the day after.....Last night the deadly trio
> of Tim, Jeffrey, and Plasma Boy returned to PIR with the Silver Bullet
> to see what we could squeeze out of it in the 1/4 mile as a follow up to
> last Wednesday night's 1/8 mile runs. We're having a lot of fun racing
> this whistling beast, but we're also a bit disappointed in the ETs we're
> ending up with :-(
>
> I posted that the best ET from Wed. was a 9.8, and Ken Trough had asked:
>
> > Doesn't that mean that the Silver Bullet broke through the 100mph
> > barrier for street legal cars?? I realize that this was not a
> > sanctioned NEDRA event and that the times are probably not official,
> > but how about some timeslip details?? Drool.
>
> Others have already addressed this, but I'll also reply. Ken, Wed.
> nights at PIR are strictly 1/8 mile only, so the 9.8 was in the 1/8
> mile, not the 1/4 mile. In that post, I had written:
>
> > Last night Jeffrey Bywater, im Brehm, and yours truly took the Silver
> > Bullet for shake down 1/8 mile runs to PIR...so his 1/8 mile times
> > were around the 10.0 - 10.2 second region, but once he figured out the
> > linkage thing and started to nail his shifts, things got better. The
> > Silver Bullet's best time was a 9.8 second run.
>
> OK, back to last night's '1/4 mile' runs....As stated, the car runs a
> lot slower than we had hoped for, with ETs never getting close to the 14
> second range and in the high 15's with a 16.2 thrown in to make it sting
> a little more for the 5 runs it made. The best ET was the last one of
> the night at 15.695 @ 82.15 mph. Still, it generates tons of excitement
> at the track. Jeffrey has turned into a good drag race driver and nearly
> nailed the $50 award for a perfect reaction time with his .001! In fact,
> all of his reaction times were super, at .001, .053, .027, .028, and
> .021, pretty darn good for a newbie drag racer!
>
> Even with tepid ETs, the race fans and fellow drivers all love this car.
> Many have seen another little EV run low 13s and so know that electric
> cars 'can' get the job done. One of the most fun races of the night, was
> when another silver Datsun 280ZX pulled into the pit area right near our
> camp. The guys had this Z Car, plus a pretty hot green Rabbit that was
> running mid 13s. They immediately came over to see what our Z had under
> the hood, and just about fell over when they saw those three electric
> motors under there! We all became friends on the spot....very fun
> evening with them.
> I arranged with 'Big Jim' in the staging lanes to have the twin silver
> Zs run against each other, and the crowd loved the grudge match. Out of
> the hole, Jeffrey stuck it to 'em with the Silver Bullet lunging off the
> line, tires squealing loudly, nose up high, and easily dusting the
> gassser Z badly at first. Jeffrey banged 2nd and lit up the tires again,
> then grabbed 3rd and was still pulling the straight six Z next to him.
> It wasn't until the final leg of the race that the gasser Z was on cam
> and humping hard as it finally blew past the Silver Bullet and on to a
> 14.7 second run, with the Silver Bullet only managing a 15.7...oh well.
> It was great listening to the crowd's reaction to the way the electric Z
> had initially accelerated out of the hole. The best part though, was
> when the other Z driver came back to the pit area, his mouth going a
> million miles per hour about the way our Z had embarrassed his off the
> line, "Geezzz, that thing's got TORQUE! Geezzzz, it freaked me out. I
> mean, mannnnnn, it's unreal!" He went on and on about the way it blew
> his car into the bushes for a while, and he commented on how he didn't
> think his car could catch ours as he saw the Silver Bullet's taillights
> most of the way down the track. He and his crew spent a lot of time
> admiring the electric Z, and they all seemed ready to make an electric
> drag racer of their own....better watch out for these guys. It's really
> too bad we didn't have someone there with a video camera to catch this
> classic Z battle.
>
> We struggled to get the car fast through the 1/4 mile, and even tried
> disconnecting one of its three motors to run on two motors...the ET went
> down from a 15.9 to a better 15.7, but we all thought the difference was
> most likely due to the batteries warming up with each run. We confirmed
> this when we reconnected the third motor and ran a similar time the next
> run. Before the last run, I checked the calibration of the master
> Raptor's throttle solenoid and found it way off. Adjusted for best WOT
> (wide open throttle), Jeffrey reported he finally saw the yellow current
> limit LED lighting and the Z dropped 2 tenths off the ET to its best
> 15.695 @ 82.15 mph.
>
>
> OK, what's wrong? We don't know for sure, but we do have our ideas on
> the subject:
>
> (1) When we got the car a few weeks ago, it had been left out in the
> weather, was banged up a bit, and had cracked and in our opinion
> dangerous rear tires that had sat deflated with all the car's weight
> crinkling the sidewalls. Rudman stepped up and supplied us with his
> sticky BR Goodrich TA drag radials, the same models I use on White
> Zombie, for us to try on the Z. They are a far lower profile tire than
> the ones we pulled from the car, but better in all other ways. Rudman
> had predicted that their smaller diameter would limit the car's top end,
> and we think he was right...damn, I owe him a dinner on the lost bet
> over this! With the same high quality drag radials but in a different
> diameter, we're thinking that much taller versions will really improve
> the top end to bring the car closer to the 14's and bring the 82 mph
> trap speed closer to 86 - 89 mph.
>
> (2) The motors seem to be timed at neutral and just don't pull like
> they should. On this, Rudman and I agree. Taking the triple motor
> configuration apart, twisting the end bells, redrilling the bolt holes
> and reassembling the affair would be time well spent. This change is
> probably the most needed, and I feel it could push the car deep into the
> 14s, maybe even into the high 13's.
>
> (3) The suspension is really in need of attention. The car nearly
> scrapes its rear bumper on launches and the nose takes on a 757 take-off
> effect. Reworking spring rates and shock control would more than likely
> trim off a few more tenths.
>
> (4) Perhaps as much as 200 lbs. of weight can and should be removed from
> the car.
>
> All the above considered, it amazes me that this car ever managed its
> world record best at 156V with its 14.77 ET....how did Father Time pull
> that one off?
>
> Everyone is attracted to this machine and we know it can get much faster
> and quicker. I've got a great group of younger guys filled with EV
> enthusiasm that I work with and have drug into this whole electric drag
> racing scene, so with Tom True's permission and Father Time's
> involvement, they can really help to get this thing into the fast lane
> again.
>
> For now, it's back to White Zombie this Saturday. Tim and I have been
> getting frustrated with time delays on everything, but we're working on
> this. The delays did make it possible to play with the Silver Bullet for
> the last two weeks :-) Marko will be getting the final metalwork done
> that's needed for the major under-hood redesign I've got going on. The
> aluminum driveline should be done in a week or so. Today, the two
> modules that make up the 348V battery pack are being assembled and the
> 29 batteries will all be bolted in securely, when we receive the
> hold-down brackets.
>
> OK, off the computer and out the EV shop I go!
>
> See Ya........John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
>
> -
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
M.G. wrote:
> If I connect the two motors together what should I use for
> a suitable load on the series motor?
What method will you use to measure the hp/tq?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Spendy but why not do the White Zombie thing and build it with the triple
motors inline and eliminate the Tranny- mount a Ford 9" drag set up. Like the
Zombie and make it a triple threat. I would wait to see how the Zombie works
out first. But you'd loose the belts, pulleys and tranny weight. Tranny 75 plus
pounds. Just a thought from the peanut gallery. Nice runs though as is.
Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:HE he he..
Got a Dinner out of it...
That's Ok.... I have watched the Silverbullet for a few years and it just
does NOT rpm the way It should.
Bob Boyd couldn't get it to pull up high... And Tom has had better luck at
lower voltages... less breakage.
It needs a better rear end ratio... or really tall sticky tires, and about
2000 Rpm more grunt.
This is where it gets tricky, Since tires, ratio, and suspension are basic
drag race work... The motors are more in line with what I
Want to be good at.
First we have to find out how bad the battery pack was sagging beyond the
1/8 mile. You can't do much if the lead has given up.
With a single pack of Orbs I think we are a couple watts shy of what we
could use. But adding 600 lbs of lead slows you down if you don't get all of
it to good use.
Unless we have twin strings of Hawkers of some sort I don't think we can
find more watts without a LOT more lead weight.
The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This is the curse of Stock EV
motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull, you add enough volts to
ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for dinner. Sigh... What
next.
Adding timing kills bottom end but lights up the top end. So We have all
the bottom end the tire and suspension can stand... lets put some timing
into this thing. We should hold the old Raptors current limit light on all
the way down to the 1200 ft mark. Well this is a dream of course.. but
it's the goal we need to have in hand to make really good MPH.
Timing is easy...file drills and aLOT of fuss work.
The next trick will be field weakening, That gets spendy. But... it takes up
where timing leaves off.
Timing, tires and Gears... the best bet.
Seeing that they got 15s... The one big battery pack is doing what we all
thought it would. Doing what it can, there is little reason for a double
string of them. I am not sure what flavor would get us better than 200 Kw in
a 560 pound pack. Of couse I don't know how much of that got used, but it
looks like it's doing well. Finding more than 2000 amps and less than 600
lbs is going to be hard to do.
I think we need to stay at this battery setup until we know we are using it
all... and I mean ALL the way down the track.
One of the items that haunts this tripple motor drive is it's huge combined
rotational mass and all themn belts and pulleys a Flanging about in the air.
The sound is cool, but this could be a major limit to the high end
performance. Dropping belts sizes and thining down pulleys... Well that
could help But ... breaking stuff is expensive. Cleaning up the parasitics
is a good thing to do..but it's the hardest and has the least chance of
finding us tens of Horsepower and 1000s of useable RPM. But we should look
into what can be done.
I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in the pulley valleies would
do??? this couldn't be more than a few Hp......Could it?? I think we could
also take about 200 lbs of unstressed metal out of the motor alignment
plates, and pulleys... But... that's machinist time...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland"
To:
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2005 9:14 AM
Subject: Silver Bullet Electric Z Car 1/4 Mile Run Results
> Hello to All,
>
> OK, it's Saturday morning, the day after.....Last night the deadly trio
> of Tim, Jeffrey, and Plasma Boy returned to PIR with the Silver Bullet
> to see what we could squeeze out of it in the 1/4 mile as a follow up to
> last Wednesday night's 1/8 mile runs. We're having a lot of fun racing
> this whistling beast, but we're also a bit disappointed in the ETs we're
> ending up with :-(
>
> I posted that the best ET from Wed. was a 9.8, and Ken Trough had asked:
>
> > Doesn't that mean that the Silver Bullet broke through the 100mph
> > barrier for street legal cars?? I realize that this was not a
> > sanctioned NEDRA event and that the times are probably not official,
> > but how about some timeslip details?? Drool.
>
> Others have already addressed this, but I'll also reply. Ken, Wed.
> nights at PIR are strictly 1/8 mile only, so the 9.8 was in the 1/8
> mile, not the 1/4 mile. In that post, I had written:
>
> > Last night Jeffrey Bywater, im Brehm, and yours truly took the Silver
> > Bullet for shake down 1/8 mile runs to PIR...so his 1/8 mile times
> > were around the 10.0 - 10.2 second region, but once he figured out the
> > linkage thing and started to nail his shifts, things got better. The
> > Silver Bullet's best time was a 9.8 second run.
>
> OK, back to last night's '1/4 mile' runs....As stated, the car runs a
> lot slower than we had hoped for, with ETs never getting close to the 14
> second range and in the high 15's with a 16.2 thrown in to make it sting
> a little more for the 5 runs it made. The best ET was the last one of
> the night at 15.695 @ 82.15 mph. Still, it generates tons of excitement
> at the track. Jeffrey has turned into a good drag race driver and nearly
> nailed the $50 award for a perfect reaction time with his .001! In fact,
> all of his reaction times were super, at .001, .053, .027, .028, and
> .021, pretty darn good for a newbie drag racer!
>
> Even with tepid ETs, the race fans and fellow drivers all love this car.
> Many have seen another little EV run low 13s and so know that electric
> cars 'can' get the job done. One of the most fun races of the night, was
> when another silver Datsun 280ZX pulled into the pit area right near our
> camp. The guys had this Z Car, plus a pretty hot green Rabbit that was
> running mid 13s. They immediately came over to see what our Z had under
> the hood, and just about fell over when they saw those three electric
> motors under there! We all became friends on the spot....very fun
> evening with them.
> I arranged with 'Big Jim' in the staging lanes to have the twin silver
> Zs run against each other, and the crowd loved the grudge match. Out of
> the hole, Jeffrey stuck it to 'em with the Silver Bullet lunging off the
> line, tires squealing loudly, nose up high, and easily dusting the
> gassser Z badly at first. Jeffrey banged 2nd and lit up the tires again,
> then grabbed 3rd and was still pulling the straight six Z next to him.
> It wasn't until the final leg of the race that the gasser Z was on cam
> and humping hard as it finally blew past the Silver Bullet and on to a
> 14.7 second run, with the Silver Bullet only managing a 15.7...oh well.
> It was great listening to the crowd's reaction to the way the electric Z
> had initially accelerated out of the hole. The best part though, was
> when the other Z driver came back to the pit area, his mouth going a
> million miles per hour about the way our Z had embarrassed his off the
> line, "Geezzz, that thing's got TORQUE! Geezzzz, it freaked me out. I
> mean, mannnnnn, it's unreal!" He went on and on about the way it blew
> his car into the bushes for a while, and he commented on how he didn't
> think his car could catch ours as he saw the Silver Bullet's taillights
> most of the way down the track. He and his crew spent a lot of time
> admiring the electric Z, and they all seemed ready to make an electric
> drag racer of their own....better watch out for these guys. It's really
> too bad we didn't have someone there with a video camera to catch this
> classic Z battle.
>
> We struggled to get the car fast through the 1/4 mile, and even tried
> disconnecting one of its three motors to run on two motors...the ET went
> down from a 15.9 to a better 15.7, but we all thought the difference was
> most likely due to the batteries warming up with each run. We confirmed
> this when we reconnected the third motor and ran a similar time the next
> run. Before the last run, I checked the calibration of the master
> Raptor's throttle solenoid and found it way off. Adjusted for best WOT
> (wide open throttle), Jeffrey reported he finally saw the yellow current
> limit LED lighting and the Z dropped 2 tenths off the ET to its best
> 15.695 @ 82.15 mph.
>
>
> OK, what's wrong? We don't know for sure, but we do have our ideas on
> the subject:
>
> (1) When we got the car a few weeks ago, it had been left out in the
> weather, was banged up a bit, and had cracked and in our opinion
> dangerous rear tires that had sat deflated with all the car's weight
> crinkling the sidewalls. Rudman stepped up and supplied us with his
> sticky BR Goodrich TA drag radials, the same models I use on White
> Zombie, for us to try on the Z. They are a far lower profile tire than
> the ones we pulled from the car, but better in all other ways. Rudman
> had predicted that their smaller diameter would limit the car's top end,
> and we think he was right...damn, I owe him a dinner on the lost bet
> over this! With the same high quality drag radials but in a different
> diameter, we're thinking that much taller versions will really improve
> the top end to bring the car closer to the 14's and bring the 82 mph
> trap speed closer to 86 - 89 mph.
>
> (2) The motors seem to be timed at neutral and just don't pull like
> they should. On this, Rudman and I agree. Taking the triple motor
> configuration apart, twisting the end bells, redrilling the bolt holes
> and reassembling the affair would be time well spent. This change is
> probably the most needed, and I feel it could push the car deep into the
> 14s, maybe even into the high 13's.
>
> (3) The suspension is really in need of attention. The car nearly
> scrapes its rear bumper on launches and the nose takes on a 757 take-off
> effect. Reworking spring rates and shock control would more than likely
> trim off a few more tenths.
>
> (4) Perhaps as much as 200 lbs. of weight can and should be removed from
> the car.
>
> All the above considered, it amazes me that this car ever managed its
> world record best at 156V with its 14.77 ET....how did Father Time pull
> that one off?
>
> Everyone is attracted to this machine and we know it can get much faster
> and quicker. I've got a great group of younger guys filled with EV
> enthusiasm that I work with and have drug into this whole electric drag
> racing scene, so with Tom True's permission and Father Time's
> involvement, they can really help to get this thing into the fast lane
> again.
>
> For now, it's back to White Zombie this Saturday. Tim and I have been
> getting frustrated with time delays on everything, but we're working on
> this. The delays did make it possible to play with the Silver Bullet for
> the last two weeks :-) Marko will be getting the final metalwork done
> that's needed for the major under-hood redesign I've got going on. The
> aluminum driveline should be done in a week or so. Today, the two
> modules that make up the 348V battery pack are being assembled and the
> 29 batteries will all be bolted in securely, when we receive the
> hold-down brackets.
>
> OK, off the computer and out the EV shop I go!
>
> See Ya........John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
>
>
> -
>
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> It needs a better rear end ratio... or really tall sticky tires,
What gear ratio does it have now? Slicks are about ~$300 for the pair.
> The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This is the curse of Stock EV
> motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull, you add enough volts to
> ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for dinner. Sigh... What
> next.
Is 170 volts the absolute limit at all rpms? How does Netgain get 192
from theirs?
Is there some way to build some form of "arc detection" into a
controller? For example, have a lead wire in the motor and if the
motor arcs to it, have the controller trim the voltage down so it
stops the arc?
> I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in the pulley valleies would
> do???
I'd do it for the reduced noise alone. 1/16" bit or smaller? How
many holes per valley? How easy are the pulleys to remove?
Use a drill press and one of these and it will go real fast:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=47993
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Somebody in the list asked for details on my ice/c. Sorry, already deleted
the message so I can't use the old topic.
Anyhow, my ice/c uses about three big bags of ice (approx. 1 $ each) for
about three hours of use. I have about 1/2 gallon of water in the cooler
and I put those ice cubes on top of it. A small marine bilge pump
circulates the water to the oil cooler embedded in the ventilation system.
I tried frozen water bottles, ice packs etc., but only ice cubes work well.
BTW. I am in Southern Texas and we currently have about 100 degrees with
70-80 percent humidity.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Rich and All,
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> HE he he..
> Got a Dinner out of it...
> That's Ok.... I have watched the Silverbullet for a
> few years and it just
> does NOT rpm the way It should.
> Bob Boyd couldn't get it to pull up high... And Tom
> has had better luck at
> lower voltages... less breakage.
> First we have to find out how bad the battery pack
> was sagging beyond the
> 1/8 mile. You can't do much if the lead has given
> up.
> With a single pack of Orbs I think we are a couple
> watts shy of what we
I'd have to wonder if going to 2 motors
series/parallel might be a good bit easier on the
batts allowing them to have more cap at the end of the
race and dropping a fair amount of weight of motor,
belts, gears, support metal. It would also make field
weakening easier.
For the Field weakening, you could use lower
voltage forklift contactors as the voltage drop isn't
that much, lowering the cost a lot. Maybe your best
bang for the buck.
>
> The motors are falling asleep above 4000 rpm, This
> is the curse of Stock EV
> motors. If you add enough volts to get them to pull,
> you add enough volts to
> ge them to arc and spark... and eat themselves for
> dinner. Sigh... What
> next.
> The next trick will be field weakening, That gets
> spendy. But... it takes up
> where timing leaves off.
Can the fields be switched to parallel instead of
series? Would the low end tradeoff be worth it?
>
> Timing, tires and Gears... the best bet.
Add a little timing, enough to help top end but
not enough to hurt the hole shot.
>
> Seeing that they got 15s... The one big battery pack
> is doing what we all
> thought it would. Doing what it can, there is little
> reason for a double
> string of them. I am not sure what flavor would get
> us better than 200 Kw in
> a 560 pound pack. Of couse I don't know how much of
> that got used, but it
> looks like it's doing well. Finding more than 2000
> amps and less than 600
> lbs is going to be hard to do.
Heat them up and cycle them before the races always
helps as you know.
I assume you are at your controller voltage limit?
Maybe have a few more batts with bypass contactors
to give the voltage needed.
>
> One of the items that haunts this tripple motor
> drive is it's huge combined
> rotational mass and all them belts and pulleys a
> Flanging about in the air.
> The sound is cool, but this could be a major limit
> to the high end
> performance. Dropping belts sizes and thining down
I do belts a lot and unless your eardrums are
being permantly hurt, you are not loosing enough power
to matter. Rotational mass can eat up hp though,
especially if you are shifting.
> I wonder what kind of gains drilling air holes in
> the pulley valleies would
> do??? this couldn't be more than a few Hp......Could
I wouldn't think so. But machining off pulley
weight could really help with 3 sets of them. Most
belt pulleys can loose a lot of weight without harm.
Has the glass been replaced with plastic?
> it?? I think we could
> also take about 200 lbs of unstressed metal out of
> the motor alignment
> plates, and pulleys... But... that's machinist
> time...
If there is that much extra weight, someone
didn't design it very well. I wouldn't expect that
much for the whole reduction/belt housing. If so, just
switching down to 2 motors inline and getting rid of
the whole belt deal would loose 350+ lbs, 10% hp gain
from no belts, easily enough to be worth it.
What motors does it have?
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
>
>
> Madman
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
While driving from work today (around 95 degrees outside) pulling about
110 Amps, my car suddenly hesitated with some weird whining noise coming
from the front.
The amps dropped to almost zero, voltage didn't drop. That lasted one or
two seconds and everything was back to normal. It happened again, a few
times until I stopped. I thought that maybe the controller was getting to
hot, but it was just a bit warm.
So I resumed my way back home, interrupted by those occasional
hesitations. I had that before, never that bad though. Usually the amps
would drop about 10 percent or so, but today I thought that I was about to
need a tow.
Those problems only happen after about 10 miles of driving > 80 amps and
usually only on my way back from work home in the afternoon, so it's my
guess that it is a thermal problem .. but what kind?
132 Volt system with new T-125s, Curtis controller with cooling fan,
prestolite motor with external cooling blower.
Any hints would be greatly appreciated.
Michaela
--- End Message ---
