EV Digest 4584
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Inverters for EV to grid connection
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Inverters for EV to grid connection
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 200VDC to 120VAC Inverter
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Inverters for EV to grid connection
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Opportunity power - no religion, please
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Thoughts on friction and traction (tractor pull)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV digest 4583
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Orange Vu-Tron cable
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Orange Vu-Tron cable
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Powering refridgerator off of HV traction pack
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Solectria UMOC questions
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: MPG vs. NGM
by Lightning Ryan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Inverters for EV to grid connection
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) open source-ness of Solectria E10?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Silver Bullet
by Thos True <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) power line leakage, was: Re: Inverters for EV to grid
connection
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: open source-ness of Solectria E10?
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Orange Vu-Tron cable
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Silver Bullet
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Battery/motor amperages, was: Re: Orange Vu-Tron cable
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Silver Bullet
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On the first config, the line voltage is connected
directly onto the primary. I am using the voltage on
the secondary winding to reduce the line voltage.
On the second one, I am connecting the primary and
the secondary in series. The line voltage is
connected to the ends of this series connected
windings. Then, I am tapping the voltage at the
connnection point between the windings.
On my application (the Prius), my DC voltage is
between 210-230V. The swing translates to 110V-120V
without any special control. Even the utility supply
is allowed to swing this much.
Ed Ang
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm not sure I follow your schematic here, but the
> second just looks
> like a common usage of a transformer.
>
> There are several things to keep in mind here. One,
> you'd need to build
> an inverter anyways to drive the transformer from a
> 200v+ battery pack.
> Second, a transformer capable of carrying a
> significant number of
> voltamps at 50/60Hz is huge. Usually we use high
> freq- 20KHz-100KHz- to
> make better use of specially designed high freq
> cores. But then you'd
> need to rectify it out and build yet another
> inverter to make 60Hz
> 120v. Third is you've got to accomodate changes
> in pack voltage.
> That is, I'm still assuming you want 120v AC from a
> HV EV pack.
>
> I kinda like the idea of straight out gutting a
> power inverter so the
> 12v-to-HV rails stage is gone. Then we build a
> DC/DC converter to
> adjust the input voltage to something the rails can
> take, and regulated
> too. Actually this isn't that hard and doesn't
> require a lot of
> inductance as long as the gap between battery
> voltage and desired HV
> rail voltage is not great. The trick is fooling the
> enable lines
> between the stages and this may be a nonissue or it
> could make it
> unfeasible. Depends on model.
>
> Danny
>
> Edward Ang wrote:
>
> >After toying around with different configurations
> of a
> >transformer, I found some interesting stuff. But,
> I
> >still could not quite get the physics behind it.
> >
> >Could we use a transformer as an AC voltage
> divider?
> >
> >Look at the 2 configurations below.
> > ___________________
> > | 240-36V
> > -+__ __________ AC
> > *) || C*
> > ) || C
> >240V ) || C 36V
> > AC ) || C AC
> > --+_) || C___
> > | |
> > |_________|
> >
> >This is the "normal" way to reduce the AC voltage
> as
> >in an auto-transformer.
> >
> >But, how about this? I am essentially using the
> >transformer as a voltage divider. I tested this
> >configuration, and it seems to divide the voltage
> >happily. But, how does it respond to different
> loads?
> > _______________________
> > | 240-36V
> > | ___________________ AC
> > | |
> > --(---+__ ________
> > | *) || C |
> > | ) || C |
> > |___ ) || C 36V |
> > | ) || C AC |
> >240V |_) || C*__ |
> > AC | | |
> > |_________| |
> > |
> > ______________________|
> >
> >My brain needs some time to digest this.
> >
> >Ed Ang
> >
> >--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Lee Hart wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>>Yes, that can work. You might not need a
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>transformer, either.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>The actual pulse width can be set to determine
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>the AC voltage
> >>
> >>
> >>>>generated.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>Edward Ang wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>Wouldn't this only give you the RMS of the
> voltage
> >>>
> >>>
> >>generated,
> >>
> >>
> >>>but the actual peak voltage would be a lot
> >>>
> >>>
> >>different? This would
> >>
> >>
> >>>be very bad if you connect something with an
> input
> >>>
> >>>
> >>cap rated at
> >>
> >>
> >>>200V (for 110Vac) because your Vdc (or peak)
> might
> >>>
> >>>
> >>be above 200V.
> >>
> >>I'm talking about a simple inverter that just
> chops
> >>the DC into a square
> >>wave, and uses phase control on the AC to limit
> the
> >>RMS voltage to what
> >>the load needs. For this to work, everything
> depends
> >>on what you are
> >>going to power with that inverter's AC.
> >>
> >>Power supplies for electronic equipment rectify
> the
> >>AC line, and mainly
> >>care about the *peak* voltage. Phase control on a
> >>square wave inverter
> >>is not effective with such loads. You should not
> >>power such devices from
> >>an inverter that just controls pulse width.
> >>
> >>Light bulbs, heaters, motors, transformers, and
> >>other simple loads care
> >>about the RMS value of the voltage, not the peak.
> So
> >>you *can* power
> >>such loads with a simple inverter that just
> controls
> >>pulse width. For
> >>example, 240vdc can be inverted into a 240vac
> square
> >>wave, and then
> >>phase controlled to become a 0v/+240v/0v/-240v
> >>"modified sine wave". If
> >>the total on-time is 25%, the RMS voltage is 120v,
> >>and will power a 120v
> >>light bulb or heater exactly the same as if it
> were
> >>on 120vac. At 60hz,
> >>this means:
> >>
> >> 0v from 0 - 6.25 msec
> >>240v from 6.25 - 8.33 msec
> >> 0v from 8.33 - 14.58 msec
> >>240v from 14.58 - 16.67 msec
> >>
> >>An inductive load like a motor or transformer will
> >>require a slightly
> >>different ratio. The exact ratio depends on how
> >>heavily loaded it is; a
> >>light load it is mainly inductive and is more
> >>towards 50% on-time.
> >>Heavily loaded it moves toward a resistive load
> and
> >>25% on-time.
> >>
> >>Yes, the actual voltage applied to the device is
> >>much higher. But
> >>essentially all motors and transformers have
> enough
> >>insulation to pass
>
=== message truncated ===
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela and All,
How much did the Exeltech inverter cost? How many watts
cont/surge-peak and do they have a larger one?
Thanks
Jerry Dycus
Michaela Merz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Bob;
>
> Nice thought. Heres a market for a higher voltage inverter, say, 120
> volts to 120 volts. Yeah, a rather limited market for now, but wouldn't
> it be nice to be able to buy an inverter that you could dial or bussbar
> up your IMPUT voltage?Electronic Geeks an' Garus?
Like I said: Exeltech is selling a DC/AC converter (I just bought one)
that takes High Voltage DC from the battery pack (108 to 140 VDC input)
Regards,
Michaela
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here in Aus we have a number of manufactures who make what we call "grid
interactive" inverters. These can be arranged to export energy when
operator wants to, ie at certain times or when there is energy to sell
from PV arrays etc. The same equipment will charge the battery at
definable times/conditions. The difficulty I see is the wide range of
battery voltages that people have. 120V nominal is an off the shelf
unit. For 48V you could use your own manufacturers such as Xantrex
formerly Trace etc.
If there were to be sufficient interest Im sure any manufacturers would
do a production run.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I you run 2amp for 2% of the total charge through a Yt you might make it
live longer. If you do this without Regs Bill I can Garrenty you will kill
one or two
Batteries. The Fact remains using Your and John Olson's algorythm Kill Yts
in long series strings in about 150 cycles. Every Sparrow with a Zivan
charger proves this.
You and John are NOT wrong, the way you do is. You have to protect any one
battery from getting vented. The 2 amps no limit Will vent Yts. Not all but
enough that
You can't get long life. Do you still have your Yts in the Wabbit??? NO....
It's clear John Olson has a LOT of battery testing... Why does he not see
this??? My hunch is the tests are done on a single battery... In Which case
there is NO argument, he knows more that anybody about AGM spiral wound VRLA
batteries. It's the Chaos of the series string that has to be tamed. And
that is where the PHDs and the combined result of this EV list's Yt
experience differ.
Your experience with a warm helathy pack of Agms is getting a little foggy.
The packs don't spend very long in absorbtion mode.
I have never seen a battery take the abuse and neglect that my Yts have....
6000 plus cycles are believable. I just don't have hard solid data on mine.
So what are we arguing about Bill????
The last time I looked at a spec sheet there was no 12,000 cycle data...
Just 250 at %80 DOD.
Of which I have made 10 times over.
Also Bill...If you flip dip 7 on a PFC charger...even yours with a Reg buss
connected string.... it kicks the Reg's set point up to 16.5 volts
effectivley allowing for the 2 amps, and no gassing, But a limit of 16.5.
This does what you want... and keeps the Yts from Venting.... So... there
are a couple of ways to attack this issue should somebody want to.
My way is getting pretty good results... Yours may vary.
All this data is years old....
I thought we hacked this over months ago...
What's new??
Rich Rudman
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:00 PM
Subject: Re: Correct AGM charging (was: A timer on PFC chargers)
>
> >
> >I find that the15 minutes is all it takes .....most of the time, to taper
> >back to less than two amps.
> >
> >In fact I have seen the full current to less than 2 amps take about 5
> >minutes. Any more and you are waisting time.
> >And.... I only take about 1 to 1.5 Kw out of my pack on the quick juants
> >that are my habit.
>
> This is why the ramp to 2 amps just takes a few minutes. Take 35
> amp-hrs out of the pack and see how long it takes to get to 2 amps.
>
>
> >Keep in mind I am looking for a VERY fast complete charge. Getting that
> >last couple of percent... takes time I don't have...or won't let have.
> >If I do a deep stroke... I have to reset the timer a few times... or dial
it
> >up to about 30 minutes.
>
> As I said.
>
> If you don't do the finish charge, and fill up the negative
> plates, you will get sulphation. This will reduce the capacity slowly but
> surely over time. If you never do a deep cycle, you won't notice that it
is
> happening until it is way too late.
>
>
>
> >When you and John Olson have 2500 Plus cycles on your Yts... Let me know
how
> >many times they have been recycled.....
>
> You obviously have not given this much thought. How do you think
> Optima got the data to put on the cycle life charts? John Olson cycled
lots
> of batteries, that is how.
>
> If you look on the spec sheet
>
> http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=D34%2F78-950
>
> You will notice that for very shallow cycles, (like 10% DOD) you
> should be getting something like 10,000 to 12,000 cycles. If not, you are
> doing something wrong.
>
> Have you cycled a battery 12,000 times? I didn't think so. Who do
> you think cycled a bunch of batteries more than 12,000 times to get these
> data?
>
>
> >But I totally agree with your micro details of charging Yts... It just is
> >not that hard to get the rest of the watts on board.
> >
> >On my Old YTs, I am not sure that there is "%8" left once they hit full V
> >and 2 amps of taper... they just about don't take a thing. Most of the
Watts
> >end up on the regs.....
>
> To make an AGM last, you need to disable the regs and push 2 amps
> through them to force in an extra 2% charge. Otherwise, you are losing
> capacity on every cycle.
>
> You have run haphazard cycles though a hundred batteries, give or
> take a few. John Olson has cycle tested many thousands of batteries in
> hundreds of different ways while carefully monitoring them. He has
> dissected batteries at many points during the cycle life to
microscopically
> examine the paste, plates, and separators to determine exactly how the
> cycle profile alters the life of each part of the battery. He carefully
> weighs each battery before the tests begin and when the test is complete
to
> measure electrolyte loss.
>
> There isn't a lot you (or I) can tell John Olson about AGM
batteries.
>
>
>
> _ /| Bill "Wisenheimer" Dube'
> \'o.O' <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> =(___)=
> U
> Check out the bike -> http://www.KillaCycle.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Be like the stock market- data signals broadcast that "we need power
now, anybody supplying gets paid back triple the normal rate". "We have
surplus power now, 20% off if you need to charge".
Sadly I can expect an Enron-like body to immediately exploit the system
to rip off the consumers.
Danny
djsharpe wrote:
Here in Aus we have a number of manufactures who make what we call "grid
interactive" inverters. These can be arranged to export energy when
operator wants to, ie at certain times or when there is energy to sell
from PV arrays etc. The same equipment will charge the battery at
definable times/conditions. The difficulty I see is the wide range of
battery voltages that people have. 120V nominal is an off the shelf
unit. For 48V you could use your own manufacturers such as Xantrex
formerly Trace etc.
If there were to be sufficient interest Im sure any manufacturers would
do a production run.
David
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On the first config, the line voltage is connected
> directly onto the primary. I am using the voltage on
> the secondary winding to reduce the line voltage.
>
> On the second one, I am connecting the primary and
> the secondary in series. The line voltage is
> connected to the ends of this series connected
> windings. Then, I am tapping the voltage at the
> connnection point between the windings.
The second config is essentially using the transformer as an
auto-transformer. Basically a non-adjustable variac set set to deliver
a fixed fraction of the input voltage.
The main difference between the two arangements seems to me to be that
the second one limits the power you can draw based on the current
capability of the primary winding of your 220->36V transformer while the
first is limited by the current capability of the 36V winding. Since
the 36V winding is going to be capable of carrying much higher current
than the primary, the first arrangement should allow the use of a much
smaller transformer for the same output load.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ed and All,
Couldn't one use a 150-300wt sq wave inverter to drive the
gates of a pair of mosfets into the secondary of the batt charging transformer
fairly simply to get 1-2kw for power tools, emergency power or EV A/C running?
Can anyone draw up a diagram how it would be done for 72vdc or 120-144 packs
most use?
I really need one to run my A/C in the Freedom EV thru it's
72vdc nom charger.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On the first config, the line voltage is connected
directly onto the primary. I am using the voltage on
the secondary winding to reduce the line voltage.
On the second one, I am connecting the primary and
the secondary in series. The line voltage is
connected to the ends of this series connected
windings. Then, I am tapping the voltage at the
connnection point between the windings.
On my application (the Prius), my DC voltage is
between 210-230V. The swing translates to 110V-120V
without any special control. Even the utility supply
is allowed to swing this much.
Ed Ang
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
> Be like the stock market- data signals broadcast that "we need power
> now, anybody supplying gets paid back triple the normal rate". "We have
> surplus power now, 20% off if you need to charge".
I like the idea! That would have me looking into getting solar panels
or something wind powered..
-----------
I remember back in the 1980's hearing a story(might be an urban
legend?) about someone building some sort of grid structure underneath
some HV power lines and powering his house from the magnetic field?
Supposedly the power company made him take his grid down because he
was "stealing" power? It wasn't physically connected to their lines
though. Anyone hear that one? Is it even possible if true?
Electromagnetic Induction?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Opportunity power
Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2005 17:09:50 -0400
Typical leftist approach of using the government to force your beliefs
on everyone. Not any different than the fundies who want to use the
government to force their brand of religion on everyone.
Neon John,
Please don't keep bringing up religion and politics when you diagree with
someone.
When you find yourself opposed to someone's ideas, try to respond with facts
and reason.
We can do without the name-calling and personal attacks. If you are able,
attack the idea ( and not the person ) based on its merits - or lack of
them.
Phil
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I use to be a big fan of tractor pulls and went to my fair share.
I assume you were not pulling on asphalt?
The difference between the two is like opening your hand flat and
dragging yourself along the street with your open palm while sitting on
a skateboard verses grabing into the soft dirt next to the road with a
cupped hand to pull yourself forward, those speical pull tires usually
have fiberglass ribs to help pull with. It is actually quite similar
except the tires on asphault are torn into by the tiny ridges in the
asphault and the dirt is torn away in large gobs by the treads in the
tires. In both cases the varibles of what it takes to rib off
rubber(shear force, heat) or displace dirt(moisture, degree of packing,
amount of clay) are similar in theory and different in the details.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Aug 16, 2005, at 6:49 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
EV Digest 4583
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Thoughts on friction and traction
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Deka Dominators to a good home
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Those group 24 Deka Dominators work well in Elec-Tracs. 6 of them
buddy paired works great and no watering. At least in the large frame
tractors. I have old Solectria Citi-Van group 24 Dominators in the
Elec-Trac. Sensitive to cold, but otherwise great.
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How bad would it be to bolt an AC gen head onto the aux shaft of the
drive motor, put the EV in neutral and set the cruise control? A lot
quieter than the gas genny and usable for "regen" if connected to a
charger. (lots of conversions and waste)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, looking at the table mentioned, it appears as if it is good for 400
amps (2/0) up to 100 feet. So is 2/0 good enough for zilla 1K on
orbitals? or should I jump up to 4/0. I am thinking 400 for battery
side and up to 1000 for motor side, should I just double run the motor
side?
Or are the specs for continuous duty and I don't even have 1 min at
those amps in my pack (25 orbitals) :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
>or should I jump up to 4/0. I am thinking 400 for battery
> side and up to 1000 for motor side
This is something I've never been clear about. How in the Zillas case
does 400 amps in equal 1000 amps out?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Aug 2005 at 17:17, Michaela Merz wrote:
> Like I said: Exeltech is selling a DC/AC converter (I just bought one)
> that takes High Voltage DC from the battery pack (108 to 140 VDC input)
Exeltech make a nice range of inverters, at nominal voltages from 12 volts
on up to 108 volts. The 108 volt model is actually intended for 125v
nominal battery voltage (a 108v pack on a 2.3 vpc float charger), and can
handle up to 149 volts (a 120v pack on a 2.5vpc cyclic charger). I'd check
with Exeltech before assuming you can safely connect one of these to a 144v
pack.
Also the most affordable Exeltech inverters (XP range) are not stackable.
For that characteristic you have to move up to the MX range.
Especially in the low-demand higher voltage ranges, they are not cheap,
certainly not by comparison with the really low-end Chinese-made Harbor
Freight and Wal-Mart stuff. I've seen prices just a bit under $1000 per
copy for the 48 volt, 1100 watt XP. But the quality is primo and Exeltech
inverters produce beautiful waveforms. Made in USA, too.
They also make inverters at 24, 32 (!), 48, and 66 (!) nominal voltages. If
you can find a combination that works with your EV's battery, you'll have a
nice backup power system. But remember, they're not stackable, so you'll
have to distribute loads. I can also tell you from experience that a 1100
watt XP inverter doesn't have enough grunt to start a 1/2 hp shallow well
pump. :-(
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
True within the temperature limits of the rubber compound because
friction is a dimensionless coeffient multiplied by the normal force. A
smaller area has a higher force per unit area but the force on the
corner is the same weather the tire is wide or narrow. They balance each
other out until the rubber overheats and just burns/melts off. Useing a
wider tire lets you keep the rubber in the right temperature window. I
know of a racer that experimented and found he was faster with a
narrower tire than he and everyone else had in the same race class.
They laughed at him until the run times proved it. Other people's rubber
wasn't coming up to optimum temp and they had more mass to get spinning
during acceleration.
Tests were done on a skid pad for cornering force and the same was found
to be true. It helps to have a G-analyst, tire temp probes and such. The
tire temp probes are cheap and can be use to establish the optimum
inflation pressure (and alignment) on any car after the corner
weights(or alignment) have been changed.
As adam eluded to the coeffient is temperature and now also pressure
dependent and for you eletronics boys, begins to look like a B-H curve
The addition of silica into rubber gives it an inverse wax like property
in which when it begins to give it stiffens up.
Another interesting thing I learned about tires is if you are doing a
lot of cornering at high speed, they last longer if you cut off half the
tread on a lathe. You heard me right. At the pro solo and road race
events SCCA events The tire guys are there with their trailers selling
tires mounting them and "shaveing" them. I thought they wer nuts
offering to shave off half the tread on my new tires , but they had 3
reasons. Get rid of the mold release in the rubber surface, true them
up, and make the tread more blocky and stif so it doesn't deform as
much durring turns.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few peeople have had UMOC questions.
This link may help:
www.solectria.com/custservice/manuals/umoc.pdf
HTH
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So, It sounds, as I suspected, like at "100% SOC" the Prius
will redilly "Shut Down" the ICE at freeway speeds and run
under EV-Only Power. So my examples may be more accurate than
they may appear at first glance and yes, they are over simplified.
"100% SOC" is a spoofed, and not real SOC, tricking Prius Computers.
"Shut Down" the ICE is not providing any power, but may still spin.
They are also about the only way that I could think of to
calculate such things, as to do it the right way would
as you point out, and correctly so, be rather complicated.
So I'm happy with the BEV-then-ICE figures as rough estimates.
At some point the actuall SOC will fall to 0% or some other lower
limit, at which time the pretend SOC will have to fall from 100%.
L8r
Ryan
ps. Still not sure how cents per mile would work.
What if they are based on $0.20/kWh and I pay $0.06
or I pay nothing because I've invested in PV/Wind?
Granted gassoline prices are fairly consistant nation wide.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Get a fluo tube, go to a high voltage easement (220kV & above) ,hold one
end of tube underneath. It will glow. Use a plate of metal underneath.
You can draw real power. It is not free, grid pays for it.
David
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: Wednesday, 17 August 2005 10:18 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Inverters for EV to grid connection
Danny Miller wrote:
> Be like the stock market- data signals broadcast that "we need power
> now, anybody supplying gets paid back triple the normal rate". "We
have
> surplus power now, 20% off if you need to charge".
I like the idea! That would have me looking into getting solar panels
or something wind powered..
-----------
I remember back in the 1980's hearing a story(might be an urban
legend?) about someone building some sort of grid structure underneath
some HV power lines and powering his house from the magnetic field?
Supposedly the power company made him take his grid down because he
was "stealing" power? It wasn't physically connected to their lines
though. Anyone hear that one? Is it even possible if true?
Electromagnetic Induction?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How would folks rate the Solectria E10 pickup truck in terms of being
"open source"? Are replacement batteries available on the open market?
Can a mere mortal do trouble shooting (or at least someone equipped with
a laptop and basic terminal software)? Can one system be replaced
without upsetting the rest? Can additional chargers be added without it
loosing track of capacity?
TIA.
Jim
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to all-
After reading the recent posts regarding the Silver Bullet, I feel
that it is time for me to enter my 2 cents worth. This project
originated in '99 with the idea of making a stock, street legal
conversion capable of reaching 100 mph in the quarter. I took my idea
to Father Time (Dad), and we found the motor pack consisting of 3
prestolite motors from Bob Boyd's rail dragster project. From
there, we found a vehicle that would accommodate the pack. It just
happened to be a heavy Japanese sports car. From there, it was discussions with
the likes of Rich and Damon at DCP, Rod at Wilde Evolutions, and John
Wayland, amongst others. It is to these people and several others that
I owe a great deal of thanks for making all that we have accomplished
possible. This was never meant to be an all out drag car. If that were
the case, I would
have chosen an early Mustang, Nova, or Cuda chassis. This vehicle has
always maintained it's ability to be used as a daily driver for work
or pleasure. Everything from the bell housing back has remained as
parts available for a stock Datsun/Nissan. Any changes would void the
basic concept of this vehicle.
To this end, I have discouraged removing the electric windows, and
glass/metal rear hatch, electric mirrors' or even the stereo opting
for smaller, lighter drivers to equalize the weight losses- Thank you
Steve Kiser and Jeffrey Bywater
for helping here. We should note that Steve drove this car to 7
consecutive world records in two voltage classes. -WOW!
I have toyed with the idea of putting a single 8 or 9 inch motor in
the Z, and transplanting the guts to a lighter chassis, just to see
what this motor pack is truly capable of in a strictly race type
environment, but the chassis hasn't landed in our lap as yet. Until it
does, I feel that our best options for achieving the original goal,
lie in tire design, and motor timing (including possible field winding
mods).
It has been brought to my attention by Steve that our record shows as
83 mph, when in reality, it was 93 mph in 14.77 seconds. Perhaps we
can correct the records?
As I said at the beginning, just my 2 cents worth.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:18 PM 16/08/05 -0500, Ryan Stotts wrote:
I remember back in the 1980's hearing a story(might be an urban
legend?) about someone building some sort of grid structure underneath
some HV power lines and powering his house from the magnetic field?
Supposedly the power company made him take his grid down because he
was "stealing" power? It wasn't physically connected to their lines
though. Anyone hear that one? Is it even possible if true?
Electromagnetic Induction?
I heard this one too, but I can't remember the source. It went along the
lines of:
Farmer complained about the amount of energy being induced into his barn
from the overhead power lines. "not possible" says energy transmission
company, 3-phase lines cancel out the fields around them to a very low
level. Farmer makes up grid and runs his lights in his barn. "Oh" says
transmission company - investigates and finds an earth fault that made one
of the three phases not be taking its' share of the load. Transmission
company repairs the fault and the farmers lights go out.
Which is in keeping with electromagnetic theory. Lee may have some comments?
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 16 Aug 2005 at 20:04, Jim Coate wrote:
> How would folks rate the Solectria E10 pickup truck in terms of being
> "open source"?
Much more so than the ones from the automakers.
> Are replacement batteries available on the open market?
Most are set up for ordinary East Penn Deka Dominators. A few are
programmed for Hawker Genesis batteries. If you want to use something
different, the charger can be reprogrammed. The programming software is
available for download.
You can also reprogram the inverters, as long as they are AMC-320s, again
with software you can download. You'll need an RS422 to RS232 converter.
Some of the very early inverters (AMC-200 and AMC-300) may not be user
programmable. Certainly I don't have access to the software for them,
though someone out there might. (Please contact me if you do.)
These earlier inverters were used in the early Force cars, but I don't know
whether any of them were ever used in the E10 pickups. Solectria may be
able to reprogram them for you anyway, if need be; call them for more info.
> Can a mere mortal do trouble shooting (or at least someone equipped with a
> laptop and basic terminal software)?
The inverter and charger manuals are available for downloading, but the
inverter and charger themselves should be considered black boxes not user-
serviceable since I'm not aware of any schematics for them. I've heard of
some canny folks reverse engineering the chargers; dunno about the
inverters.
> Can one system be replaced without
> upsetting the rest?
Absolutely, with the caveat that the inverters are matched to the motors.
In general motor and inverter should be considered a unit - however I
believe that there are current production inverters that would drive those
motors. Victor of Metric Mind could provide more information about that.
> Can additional chargers be added without it loosing track
> of capacity?
No problem at all. The only component tracking capacity is an amp-hour
counter, and as long as all current goes through its shunt, it won't get
lost.
The Solectria E10s are straightforward conversions, very cleanly and
elegantly carried out. They look almost 100% factory, definitely NOT look
like backyard conversions. But they are not integrated like the GM and Ford
limited production EVs. The individual systems are smart - the inverters
have a raft of features and the charger is a highly sophisticated
microprocessor controlled device - but each of these is an isolated unit and
they don't communicate with one another.
Hope this helps.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab writes:
>
> Ok, looking at the table mentioned, it appears as if it is good for 400
> amps (2/0) up to 100 feet. So is 2/0 good enough for zilla 1K on
> orbitals? or should I jump up to 4/0. I am thinking 400 for battery
> side and up to 1000 for motor side, should I just double run the motor
> side?
My car has 13 buddy-pairs of Optimas (156v) and a Zilla 1K. I'm using
2/0 cable for the battery interconnects and 4/0 for the motor cables.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom
Welcome to the EVDL.
Great to see you join the conversation here :^D
Also great to see the Silver Bullet back on the track.
See you in Portland!
Thos True wrote:
Hello to all-
After reading the recent posts regarding the Silver Bullet, I feel
that it is time for me to enter my 2 cents worth. This project
originated in '99 with the idea of making a stock, street legal
conversion capable of reaching 100 mph in the quarter. I took my idea
to Father Time (Dad), and we found the motor pack consisting of 3
prestolite motors from Bob Boyd's rail dragster project. From
there, we found a vehicle that would accommodate the pack. It just
happened to be a heavy Japanese sports car. From there, it was discussions
with
the likes of Rich and Damon at DCP, Rod at Wilde Evolutions, and John
Wayland, amongst others. It is to these people and several others that
I owe a great deal of thanks for making all that we have accomplished
possible. This was never meant to be an all out drag car. If that were
the case, I would
have chosen an early Mustang, Nova, or Cuda chassis. This vehicle has
always maintained it's ability to be used as a daily driver for work
or pleasure. Everything from the bell housing back has remained as
parts available for a stock Datsun/Nissan. Any changes would void the
basic concept of this vehicle.
To this end, I have discouraged removing the electric windows, and
glass/metal rear hatch, electric mirrors' or even the stereo opting
for smaller, lighter drivers to equalize the weight losses- Thank you
Steve Kiser and Jeffrey Bywater
for helping here. We should note that Steve drove this car to 7
consecutive world records in two voltage classes. -WOW!
I have toyed with the idea of putting a single 8 or 9 inch motor in
the Z, and transplanting the guts to a lighter chassis, just to see
what this motor pack is truly capable of in a strictly race type
environment, but the chassis hasn't landed in our lap as yet. Until it
does, I feel that our best options for achieving the original goal,
lie in tire design, and motor timing (including possible field winding
mods).
It has been brought to my attention by Steve that our record shows as
83 mph, when in reality, it was 93 mph in 14.77 seconds. Perhaps we
can correct the records?
As I said at the beginning, just my 2 cents worth.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 09:17 PM 16/08/05 -0500, Ryan wrote:
>or should I jump up to 4/0. I am thinking 400 for battery
> side and up to 1000 for motor side
This is something I've never been clear about. How in the Zillas case
does 400 amps in equal 1000 amps out?
It is about the *average* amperage. At the example above, the controller
power devices are on for 40% of the time. Conditions are right to achieve
1000 Amps in the motor loop, the controller when it is on is 'topping up'
the current flow in the motor loop with a 1000A burst. When the controller
turns off there is still 1000A flowing in the motor (normally through the
free-wheel diodes in the controller). But there is now no current flowing
from the battery, resulting in an average current from the battery of 400A
(40% of 1000A). Also the average motor voltage would be around 40% of the
average batery voltage.
Of course in the real world, the motor current is decaying during the off
time and increasing during the on-time. The filter capacitors in the
controller and the inductance of the wiring go a long way to averaging out
the current in the battery loop - instead of square-wave pulses it would be
more triangular/curved, increasing when the controller is on, decreasing
when the controller is off.
Hope this helps
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Tom
Welcome to the EVDL.
Great to see you join the conversation here :^D
Also great to see the Silver Bullet back on the track.
See you in Portland!
Thos True wrote:
Hello to all-
After reading the recent posts regarding the Silver Bullet, I feel
that it is time for me to enter my 2 cents worth. This project
originated in '99 with the idea of making a stock, street legal
conversion capable of reaching 100 mph in the quarter. I took my idea
to Father Time (Dad), and we found the motor pack consisting of 3
prestolite motors from Bob Boyd's rail dragster project. From
there, we found a vehicle that would accommodate the pack. It just
happened to be a heavy Japanese sports car. From there, it was discussions
with
the likes of Rich and Damon at DCP, Rod at Wilde Evolutions, and John
Wayland, amongst others. It is to these people and several others that
I owe a great deal of thanks for making all that we have accomplished
possible. This was never meant to be an all out drag car. If that were
the case, I would
have chosen an early Mustang, Nova, or Cuda chassis. This vehicle has
always maintained it's ability to be used as a daily driver for work
or pleasure. Everything from the bell housing back has remained as
parts available for a stock Datsun/Nissan. Any changes would void the
basic concept of this vehicle.
To this end, I have discouraged removing the electric windows, and
glass/metal rear hatch, electric mirrors' or even the stereo opting
for smaller, lighter drivers to equalize the weight losses- Thank you
Steve Kiser and Jeffrey Bywater
for helping here. We should note that Steve drove this car to 7
consecutive world records in two voltage classes. -WOW!
I have toyed with the idea of putting a single 8 or 9 inch motor in
the Z, and transplanting the guts to a lighter chassis, just to see
what this motor pack is truly capable of in a strictly race type
environment, but the chassis hasn't landed in our lap as yet. Until it
does, I feel that our best options for achieving the original goal,
lie in tire design, and motor timing (including possible field winding
mods).
It has been brought to my attention by Steve that our record shows as
83 mph, when in reality, it was 93 mph in 14.77 seconds. Perhaps we
can correct the records?
As I said at the beginning, just my 2 cents worth.
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
