EV Digest 4597
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) (no subject)
by Pascal Ruyter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: ADC vs. Netgain / how about Prestolite?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: EV ceramic heater
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Help me decide!
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Field Weakening in shunt or series
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Request for some required reading.
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: How to advance timng of ADC motors
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Putting breaker under the radio
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Request for some required reading.
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Request for some required reading.
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Real energy costs, future of EV's Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now
cents per mile.
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: What motor?
by "Chris Tromley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: open source-ness of Solectria E10?
by Tom Hudson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: From Roderick, OOPS, apology
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Here's a thought
by "Chuck Hays" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Hi from a newbie : Decisions
by "Shelton, John D AW1 \(VP-08\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Project ideas (dreadfully long)
by "Patrick Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Dodge Neon
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Hi from a newbie : Decisions
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
set ev mail
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--- Begin Message ---
I would agree. I like the attitude of the Netgain folks and some of the
beefier characteristics, so I chose the Netgain Warp 9 Impulse for my
conversion. I didn't find the people at ADC very friendly when it came to
answering questions.
Mark Ward
95 Saab 900
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 12:52 AM
Subject: ADC vs. Netgain / how about Prestolite?
Snip> In several of the WarP motors, they are a drop-in replacement for
ADC Motors.
While possibly a bit higher-priced, take a look at the available
options! And while you're at it, take a look how easy it is to buy one
with all the options configured:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php. Cash discounts are available.
I would invite a rebuttal to this e-mail on the virtues of ADC motors.
As I said, I'm biased :)
I'll bite here. Being I'm just a re-builder and not a sales rep for
either and it seems I'm invited and all ; ).
First I want to say that Warp motors are I'm sure equal to and in some
cases better than ADC. I find it funny though how your first sentence
says it all. They are drop in replacements for the ADC. My experience
has been motors from the forklift side and well, they were just copies of
Prestolite's and ADC's. But the parts were not interchangeable, and this
became frustrating (not an issue for you guys). I have seen both the 8
Warp and the ADC 8 and there is no discernible difference, so in fact they
should run tit for tat (as long as you advance the ADC). At that point it
seems Advance chooses to cater to companies were as Warfield / Netgain
choose to cater to individual clientele, and this I applaud, as I to am
very customer orientated. Word of mouth means a great deal and well
Advance treats me very well and I invite any who are finding trouble
getting parts for any Advance motor to let me know.
I've recently landed some really nice used 9 inch Advances and Prestolites
and will probably throw the Prestolites Does anyone out there use
Prestolites?) into my project and modify and sell the Advances. In fact
either is just as good, and I will hope to prove that if I can get my
project off the ground. I was born and bred Prestolite and well I'm
partial to many of their models also. As a re-builder I see the weak
links in all the motors types and well they all have them. You don't
think I'll be freaking out as John takes the Siamese twins for their first
ride. With as many mod's and with John boosting his pack to what ever
godly amount it was at last count and adding to that a proto type shaft
I'm scared as hell. But it will all come down to either John setting some
new records or destroying 100 hours of my work in under 11 seconds. At
this point I will give credit that they are in fact WarP 8's (which I hope
he doesn't kill) that I have merely modified. This was!
all in
good fun and well motors it seems are like art, you either love it or you
don't, lol.
Cya at Woodburn
Proud sponsor of Plasma Boy Racing
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hi Cwarman, Eric, and Everyone else
that will listen :)
I should have realized when I put those acronyms on the WarP motor pages
on EV Source that most people would wonder, just like I did, what they
meant. It looks like that question has already been answered - Counter
ClockWise when viewed from the Drive End and ClockWise when viewed from
the Drive End. I put a tooltip on the Shaft Rotation select for each
size WarP motor to clarify that.
On to Cwarman's question about why ADC vs. WarP motors.
I'm a bit biased since I deal WarP motors. But that's really the very
reason I prefer them. I'll explain. I contacted ADC awhile back with
interest to sell their motors. It seemed most people were using them in
their conversions at the time, and were happy with the performance. I
didn't get a single response from ADC. Granted, sometimes e-mails get
lost in the whole sea of mail. But Netgain has been a pleasure to deal
with from the very first e-mail conversation I had with them. They are
a living, breathing company that is out there to make EV motors! They
are dedicated to meeting the EV crowd needs.
In several of the WarP motors, they are a drop-in replacement for ADC
motors.
While possibly a bit higher-priced, take a look at the available
options! And while you're at it, take a look how easy it is to buy one
with all the options configured:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_motors.php. Cash discounts are available.
I would invite a rebuttal to this e-mail on the virtues of ADC motors.
As I said, I'm biased :)
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
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--- Begin Message ---
If you are a member of EVTech mailing list, there was **a lot** of
discussion on this exact subject. Look at www.brassrat.net/ev
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rod Hower
Sent: August 18, 2005 7:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: EV ceramic heater
I have a 120Vac heater core that is running off a 156Vdc pack. This pushes
the heater to temperatures that are higher than some plastic ducting can
withstand. I was thinking about using a bimetalic switch in the heat path
to turn off the heater. This was used on many older style clothes dryers.
Any advice on the bimetalic switch part number would be appreciated (or at
least a web site for a range of temp switches so I can choose one that may
work in this application).
Thanks,
Rod
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>>A big advantage to brushed DC motors is how easily they will share the
>>load when all run from the same controller. So you really don't need 4
>>separate controllers; a single one large enough for the total power
>>needed would be a better solution.
>>
>>
> My only question with this was regen. I know with four seperate
> controllers, regen wouldn't be a problem - but what about four motors on
> one controller?
If you REALLY want regen, then go with an AC system. Getting efficient
Regen form DC systems requires fairly complicated motors and controllers.
You can get regen from an Etek, but in order to do it you have to put the
brushes in a neutral posistion. This reduces the efficiency of the motor
when running normally. In fact you will probably end up loosing more
energy from this efficiency loss then you will make up in Regen.
About the only way to avoid this problem with brushed DC motors, is to
make a remote controlled, moveable, brush rigging. Not an easy task.
AC motors don't have brushes and can therefor regen as efficiency as they
motor.
However, unless you do a lot of stop and go, or hills, regen won't add all
that much range.
> Is the 48v system such a downfall if backed by a large number of amps in
> the pack? Instead of having a higher voltage pack, have a lower voltage
> super-buddy paired pack?
Low voltage and high currents = heavier cables and (generally) higher I2R
losses. Higher voltage generally = higher efficiency = more range.
>>8-volt batteries are a compromise; something you use when neither range,
>>nor life, nor cost, nor performance are your biggest concerns. If range
>>is your big issue, then I'd start with 6v golf car batteries like the
>>T-125 or T-145. See how many the vehicle can carry, and what system
>>voltage that leads you to.
>>
>>
> I'm curious why 8-volt is a compromise? Cell composition? They just
> seemed to work well for price, weight, and number of amp-hours.
Yup. They have fewer plates per cell and don't handle current nearly as
well as 6V batteries.
However, I think the biggest problem with 8V GC batteries is that people
try to use them just like they would use 6V batteries. I.e. they make a
120V pack of 8V batts (15 batteries) and expect it to perform like a 120V
pack of 6V batts (20 batteris).
8V batteries are only good for about 200-250 amps, 6V are good for at
least 350-400.
Then they tend to drive the vehicle to the same or similar range. Since
the 8V pack has less lead, this means they discharge it deeper.
So if you select an 8V pack and then routinely pull 300-350 amps from it,
and routinely drain it to 80% DOD, the batteries die quickly, typically
within a year.
I suspect that if they made a 160V pack of 8V batteries and kept the
battery current down to 200 amps, they would last almost as long as 120V
worth of 6V batteries.
>
>>Then look for a single traction motor large enough for the power needed.
>>
>>Then find a controller suitable for the pack voltage and current the
>>chosen motor will need.
>>
>>
> I'm looking at alternatives, the concept of using a motor per wheel has
> always been on my mind, and I thought I'd throw it out. Thanks, again!
All else being equal, a single large motor tends to be more durable and
more efficienct than multiple smaller motors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I found some good info in my Bodine Motor Control Handbook that shows how to
set up a shunt motor for field weakening with a series rheostat set to the same
coil resistance as the field and placed in series with the field. Then a test
is run (they said generally doesn't exceed 150% of base motor speed) to where
you hit a knee on the speed/torque curve where the brushes start arcing and arm
current goes up but generally the best set point is the same resistance as the
coil is, essentially 1/2 field weakening. Make sure not to exceed the motors
speed/current ratings. Once the nominal resistance is determined, then a relay
can open with the resistance across it to implement the speed boost, typically
20% more of base speed. I was looking at this for a direct drive shunt motor
vehicle with reverse speed (flip field, small relay) and regen. They also said
the best way to control a shunt (aka Sep-Ex) motor is to directly apply voltage
to the field and PWM the armature.
On a series motor, known current is fed through the field and a voltage drop is
measured, calculating the microhm resistance. Then an equal resistance is set
up & measured through the contactor used using #12 wire into an air coil,
usually ends up being 1-2' long with the field weakening contactor. Typically
20% more of base speed.
Mark www.solectrol.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> would like to know if anybody can give me some titles and authors of some
> books that might teach me more about the basics of this EV thing.
"Build your own Electric Vehicle" by Bob Brant, it's a little dated but
does an excellent job covering the basics.
Perhaps "Covert it!" By Micheal Brown. I haven't read this one, but Mike
knows his stuff so I suspect it's good.
"The New Electric Vehicles: A Clean & Quiet Revolution" is a great book to
give you ideas on how to think outside the box.
>
> I'm currently designing and building an EV. WarP 9 with a double 144V
> pack and a Zilla Z1K I haven't decided on the batts yet. Orbitals maybe.
> Under 2000lbs total weight.
That's going to be a tuff trick, considering the above parts, plus the
rest of EV components, are going to weigh over 1500 lbs.
> I've built about a dozen airplanes with composites so I'm sticking
> with what I know and the EV will be mostly glass and carbon graphite.
-snip-
> John J Januszewski
> www.jcomposites.com
Hmm, perhaps you can pull it off. Good luck and keep us posted.
I'd definitely recommend "Build Your own.." to cover the basics and for
the formulas, and "The New Electric..." for some ideas that might be
useful to you.
You might also consider the AC drive systems from either solectria or
mectric mind. You're carrying enough batteries for these to be viable,
and you'll get Regen. There are some advantages of running a single high
voltage string over dual low voltage strings.
They might not be as snappy as the zilla and Warp, but in a 2000 lbs
vehicle, I think you'll be pleased.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On the 8 inch motors, you will see some black, allen
head 1/4" screws holding the tailshaft end of the
motor onto the casing.
Pulling these 4 screws off yields 12 holes, in
clusters of 3. The 1/4" screws you just pulled
must've been in retard, neutral, or advance. In the
unused holes are studs that are pulled out with an
allen wrench
Where you place the 1/4 screws will determine how
much brush arcing you will have.
Because most cars' driveshafts/trannies go one
direction, most people drive in the retard position.
I have a Civic, therefore my shafts rotate exactly the
opposite way (think driving in reverse) so I need to
be in the advanced position.
I _believe_ that ADC sets these up in the retard
position, b/c most people use them in that position.
Ken Koch, KTA Services, sells ADC motors, and can
either fax or mail you a spec sheet that details the
process better.
MOST IMPORTANT: Don't try this near darkness. I
wound up not seeing the studs in the unused holes, and
wound up needing to re-thread with helicoil inserts.
Thank God for them, or I'd have been in the market for
$1300 of motor.
As far as performance, I'm not sure, as have never
used it in the wrong position, but it does make the
brushes last longer.
peace,
--- Robert Chew <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have heard someone mentioning how they can get
> better performance by
> advancing the timing of the ADC motors. How does
> that work and what sort of
> performance am i expecting??
>
> I got 6.7 inch K series.
>
> Cheers
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
I have grommets on the holes; but in a hard crash, rubber grommets might not
be enough protection. How about metal grommets - are any available with
rubber inserts? Bushed nipples would be a good alternative, maybe.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 7:06 AM
Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
> I think the concern is shearing in an accident. You are drilling a hole
in
> thin metal. That could act as a knife in a wreck. If both holes
collapsed
> it could cut both cables and connect a very hot circuit. Welding would
take
> place. However I like your idea. LR.........
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 7:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
>
>
> > Lawrence, I really don't think that putting a breaker with the HV wiring
> > in
> > the passenger compartment is a bad idea - might be if you had 250+
volts,
> > but not very many conversions are going to go that high.
> >
> >
> > I have mine mounted just under the dash in the center, and I don't think
> > that it is a serious hazard at all - I'm just an electrical contractor,
> > what
> > do I know, right?
> >
> > Joseph H. Strubhar
> >
> > E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Web: www.gremcoinc.com
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 5:16 PM
> > Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
> >
> >
> >> Gravity be damned I'm going to mount the Breaker somhow either above or
> >> below the floor of my car. Locations that it will fit: On or under
the
> >> hump in the back seat feet area. On the floor
> >> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/418f.jpg you can see to lines of white
> > next
> >> to the stick shift. That installation did have the wires comming up
for
> >> about an inch in four places. Next to that under the shifter but in
the
> >> hump and protected from scraping. I would have to construct a box to
> >> protect it from splash. What do you guys think? Lawrence
Rhodes......
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: <[email protected]>
> >> Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 3:35 PM
> >> Subject: Re: Putting breaker under the radio
> >>
> >>
> >> > On 17 Aug 2005 at 14:49, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I mounted my breaker on the control board under the hood ...
> >> >
> >> > The problem with that is that it exposes the breaker to road spray
and
> >> > dirt,
> >> > unless it's encased in a box or something. I'm concerned about this.
> >> > Also,
> >> > what if the cable breaks in an emergency?
> >> >
> >> > I like to mount the main breaker under the seat and bring the hv
wiring
> > up
> >> > through the floorpan. That's not really a good strategy because it
> > still
> >> > puts the hv wiring inside the passenger compartment, even if it's
just
> >> > a
> >> > couple of feet.
> >> >
> >> > I don't have a good answer for this, but I definitely don't like
under
> > the
> >> > hood and I'm uneasy about mechanical cable connections. Other
> >> > thoughts?
> >> > Anybody?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> >> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >> >
> >> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> >> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> >> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >> > Note: mail sent to the "from" address above may not reach me. To
> >> > send me a private message, please use evdl at drmm period net.
> >> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1) Mark Brown's "Convert It". The bible, if you
will, for novice converters like myself.
2) Bob Brandt's "Build Your Own Electric Vehicle."
More into the science; not as good for practical, but
still helpful.
3) If you like 92-95 Honda Civics, my website:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html. Also,
there is a link where I provide many details about how
I did certain tasks in the conversion.
If you want to see a fairly well-detailed couple of
Civic conversions, I have a videotape I make available
for $12 which covers shipping, my time, and helps
defray the brain and $$$ investment I've made ($9,000
+ 80 hours minimum time) which would probably be
interesting for you to see. Reply off-line and
include address, and I can set you up.
Hope that helps, and welcome to the list!
--- John J Januszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Folks,
>
> My name is John J Januszewski. I've been lurking
> for about a month now and
> would like to know if anybody can give me some
> titles and authors of some
> books that might teach me more about the basics of
> this EV thing. Like an
> EV101 course. I don't want to hang around and ask
> all the silly questions
> and expose myself to the tyrannical rants that
> usually develop around here
> after such things. I, and many others, don't have
> time for that. Just the
> basics pertaining to what all the jargon and
> acronyms stand for.
>
> I'm currently designing and building an EV. WarP 9
> with a double 144V pack
> and a Zilla Z1K I haven't decided on the batts yet.
> Orbitals maybe. Under
> 2000lbs total weight. Not really looking to drag
> race (hence the Z1K as
> opposed to the Z2K) but I want it peppy. More of a
> cruiser than anything
> else. I've built about a dozen airplanes with
> composites so I'm sticking
> with what I know and the EV will be mostly glass and
> carbon graphite. Most
> of it is still on the drawing board and that is why
> I want to get a handle
> on the electrical part so I can make it all fit
> together before I start
> mixing the sticky stuff.
>
> Thank You For Your Time
>
> John J Januszewski
> www.jcomposites.com
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It looks like your chassis is based on the lo-cost design. You may also
want to look at a couple of chassis books:
- Chassis Design - Herb Adams
- Race car chassis design and construction - Forbes Aird
These books discuss how to design a frame that is light and stiff. The
ladder frame that you have depicted is one of the weakest designs for
torsional stiffness. Fine for going straight ahead, but it becomes a real
problem cornering.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John J Januszewski
Sent: August 18, 2005 8:52 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Request for some required reading.
Hello Folks,
My name is John J Januszewski. I've been lurking for about a month now and
would like to know if anybody can give me some titles and authors of some
books that might teach me more about the basics of this EV thing. Like an
EV101 course. I don't want to hang around and ask all the silly questions
and expose myself to the tyrannical rants that usually develop around here
after such things. I, and many others, don't have time for that. Just the
basics pertaining to what all the jargon and acronyms stand for.
I'm currently designing and building an EV. WarP 9 with a double 144V pack
and a Zilla Z1K I haven't decided on the batts yet. Orbitals maybe. Under
2000lbs total weight. Not really looking to drag race (hence the Z1K as
opposed to the Z2K) but I want it peppy. More of a cruiser than anything
else. I've built about a dozen airplanes with composites so I'm sticking
with what I know and the EV will be mostly glass and carbon graphite. Most
of it is still on the drawing board and that is why I want to get a handle
on the electrical part so I can make it all fit together before I start
mixing the sticky stuff.
Thank You For Your Time
John J Januszewski
www.jcomposites.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug and All,
Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Personally I don't like cents per mile, because it focuses on the
dollar cost of driving a vehicle.
While not perfect, it comes close as most of the costs are in it
except subsidies and social costs which are another form of subsidies. Maybe
add a external cost/mile to it.
Take oil subsidies like the military costs of oil which the Wall
Street journal estimates at about $1-2/gal on top of the price paid at the
pump. Then add direct subsidies which add up to about $12bil/yr.
Then add the social costs in soldiers lives lost in the middle
east, the reduction in our economy from the wars past, present and future
which are directly related to oil as anyone studying middle east history knows.
Then add to that the pollution that causes illness, death though with modern
pollution, removel of lead, sulfur, ect controls that have greatly reduced that
cost in the US though still there.
The sad thing is we can easily supply all our own transport energy
needed if all these cost were in the sources of energy so one would know, pay
their true costs. If it was, liquid fuels from coal, tar sands, biomass and
oil shale along with conservation, EV's can and will make us independent
whether we want to or not. As it's fairly clear now like I said last yr, we are
at the peak of oil production with it going down from here so reg oil, as we
know it, just won't be available at a reasonable cost.
The difference is whether we do it the easy or hard way and our gov
has decided we will do it the hard way with great economic disruptions,
recessions over the next 10 yrs because of it until we wean ourselves off of
the oil addiction. The timeframe to avoid this has passed. Notice how the
price of oil has jumped since the 'Energy Bill' has passed? The markets know
what's coming so take your profits now and put them in inflation, recession
proof investments or cash to pick up the bargains avialable after the crash
either this winter or at most, 3q next yr. If you bought property at the top of
the bubble, sell now and buy it back later at 25-50% discount. Just think,
study 73 recession though it will be much worse as OPEC won't be able to turn
the taps back on after 6 weeks as they did then as they are already running
full blast.
That by no means electricity is perfectly clean either though overall,
much better than oil pollution, social costs. Much of our electricity comes
from coal but like oil, it's pollution has come way down and getting to be less
of the mix of electric sources used and as the price of it comes up, more less
polluting sources will take it's place. The social costs are rather high from
coal's mining and still high comparitively pollution so we should strive to
reduce both. If it's true costs were in it also, other forms of much cleaner
energy would take it's place.
However if used in EV's, their excellent eff of 2 to 3 times, mean
many fewer btu's of energy are needed reducing social, direct costs greatly
compared to oil.
The great things for our future is reg hydro and the rising of NG,
nuke, wind, and in the farther future, thermal solar, non dam hydro, biomass
will take over from a future smaller but much cleaner coal generation if our
present gov will let it happen..
I cut my energy cost a lot by using a very lightweight EV that only
needs 100wthr/mile which equals about 160mpg energy wise and now about 250mpg
cost wise. Others can do the same by making EV's that are light, aero instead
of heavy, high energy users though even at 500wthrs/mile still easily beat most
gas vehicles of the same type. But there is no reason we can't build even a
full size pickup that uses under 250wthrs/mile.
A good way to go is having a couple different vehicles and always
using the one most appropreate for the task. For instance an E bike can be the
best for hitting the store being both faster, less energy and being able to
park at the door in many cases. Being a mile away from the stores I can easily
beat a car going to, shopping and getting home with the E bike as I can bypass
traffic, parking problems. An E moped could by using the bike lanes, bypass
traffic jams and actually beat a car to work in many cases.
This is why I avocate small EV's like my E woody, E bikes, Aero cabin
and reg E-MC's that are truely eff at what they do, haul 1-2 people around .
As they cost little, as do light, aero conversions ,you can afford to have each
to meet whatever mission you need.
I'm not building an EV because I want to save money. I'm trying to
reduce the other negative externalities of burning gasoline (pollution,
greenhouse gases, politics, terrorism, etc).
I am!! Saving money is a prime factor in using EV's for me when I first
started EV's, though saving the external costs of war, pollution is a close
second now. There is no reason EV's have to cost more than ICE's.
The fact that most all EV's have been overpriced greatly for what you
get is the main reason we don't have EV's available to us now. Get good Ev's
for under $15k and they would quickly be everywhere. Take NEV's for instance,
for about $3k more, they would easily be able to do 60 mph and go 80
miles/charge which would make them about $10-12k so it's easily possible if one
was to want to do it.
It's going to be a great time to own an EV or put one into full scale
or limited production. If anyone wants to, I'll be glad to help you do it
right, inexpensively.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
In other words, I consider a penny of gasoline to be much more
"expensive" than a penny of electricity.
I think cents per mile should only be used if it's included in a table
of other costs per mile, such as:
Energy per mile (Kwh, BTUs, gallons of gasoline)
Energy *wasted* per mile (well-to-wheels analysis required)
Atmospheric carbon added per mile (pounds or kilograms)
Global temperature increase per mile (degrees)
Deaths per mile (war+respiratory illness+cancer+etc.)
Tax dollars spent per mile (oil/electric subsidies, environmental
cleanup, infrastructure)
IQ points lost per mile (assuming the tax dollars had gone into
education instead)
Refueling time per mile (minutes)
etc.
Cost per mile is only one metric, and in my case, one of the least
important ones.
If I had to boil it down to one metric, it would be very subjective.
It would include the above, plus factors that are nearly impossible to
quantify such as enjoyment of the conversion process, convenience, and
national security. I'd call it Smiles Per Mile. If I lived in a
different country, I might call it Kicks per Klick.
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pascal Ruyter wrote:
> Sorry, I forgot to mention more about the vehicle I want to build. It is
> an electric urbacar from Mr. Riley's website, more info there :
> http://www.rqriley.com/urba-e.html
>
> It's designed way back in the 1970's so most components are out of date,
> therefor the question, regarding the motor.
>
> Thx for the info.
Hi Pascal,
It's encouraging to see that R.Q Riley states up front that the Urbacar
design is obsolete and really should be improved in several ways. It's also
encouraging to see that's not hard to do.
I personally don't like the idea of building an EV with very limited use.
So far what you describe will have very modest performance and should never
be taken on a highway where speeds are above 80-90 kph. A 48 V version of
this car will probably reach that speed, but it will take a very long time.
Even if you decide to live with that limited performance, finding the
components to build the car might be difficult. The fact that the original
transmission is obsolete probably means you must use direct drive, since
finding and adapting another transmission could be a project in itself.
That means very high current draws from your flooded batteries will be
needed, which will shorten their life. The only practical way to get that
high current is to use a contactor controller, which will make speed control
rather jerky.
Here's what I would do. (see http://www.rqriley.com/imagespln/ue4.jpg)
Since the transmission won't be there, you can mount the motor where the
transmission was. (That gives you more room for batteries.) I would two
ADC A00 motors
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=533&product_id=1102
or something equivalent from D&D or other sources. A Zilla Z1k controller
is a bit more expensive than a Curtis, but has twice the power and has *far*
more features. One of those features is the ability to switch two motors
from series to parallel. This allows you to use direct drive *and* get far
better flexibility from your motors.
Finally, I would add four more batteries behind the rear axle and four more
in front of the front wheels. Some will point out, and correctly, that this
battery placement will increase the polar moment of inertia of the car to
the detriment of handling. But the car is so small that it will still
handle just fine. The 96 V pack will allow you to travel at highway speeds
easily depending on what gearing you use. Range and pack life will be
phenomenal. 150 km per charge should be possible. (Note that the Zilla's
lower limit is 72 V, so at least four additional batteries will be needed
for this plan to work.
It should not be difficult to strengthen the chassis sufficiently to hold
the extra weight. However it is obvious that little effort was devoted to
crash protection in the original design. If it was me I would improve on
that. Again, it shouldn't be too difficult.
Also understand that the fiberglass-over-foam technique is quick and easy
only if you will be satisfied with terrible surface quality. Getting the
surface as smooth and straight as a production vehicle will take a *huge*
amount of time. My advice is to pay close attention to evenness of the
shape before applying the fiberglass, spend little time with filler to get
the surface reasonably smooth, then apply a textured paint that will mask
the inevitable myriad surface imperfections. Marc Kohler built an EV using
this technique, he might be a source of info.
http://home.austin.rr.com/ev3po/
Good luck with your project, and please keep us posted on progress.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz wrote:
Hmm .. curious: In case of trouble with an E-10 truck, would I be able to
call somebody, hook up a chain or something and get a quick tow home?
mm.
Yes. You'd just turn off the vehicle, making sure the regen braking
wasn't operational. That would work perfectly. Otherwise, not only
would it be a tough pull, but you'd risk overcharging and damaging the
batteries.
--
Thomas Hudson
http://portdistrict5.org -- 5th District Aldermanic Website
http://portev.org -- Electric Vehicles, Solar Power & More
http://portgardenclub.org -- Port Washington Garden Club
http://portlightstation.org -- Light Station Restoration
http://klanky.com -- Animation Projects
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This was meant to go to an individual, not the list, my apologies.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 9:59 PM
Subject: From Roderick
Hi Mark,
I got an endorsement for my site www.rideablecommunities.org fom your
town, Fincastle and from your state but it had my name on it. Is this a
joke you are doing with me and I don't undestand it. You are the only
person I know in Fincastle, VA. what's up, enquiring minds want to know
:-)
Roderick
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--- Begin Message ---
From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
With DC one - you'd need a built position sensor and tight
speed control by the controller - not trivial but doable.
Is that really necessary? I've used motorcycle
air-shifter setups that just interrupt the ignition
for a cycle and use an air ram to pop the gear
linkage up another notch. Interrupting the
ignition unloads the transmission enough to
allow the shift.
It's the same principle as slip-shifting, when
you unload the tranny and then just shift it
without the clutch. Used to do that all the
time on the old diesel when the (plastic)
slave cylinder in the hydro clutch would crack
about every six months. :)=)}
I could see that it could be set up to cut
the power back for an instant along with
activating a solenoid to shift. Two solenoids
(one for up, one for down) and paddles on
the steering wheel, and you'd have the same
setup a lot of the high-end sports cars have now.
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cwarman,
Where in Maine are you? I'm in Brunswick. There is another guy
on the list in Brunswick but I haven't heard from him lately and I
didn't hear back from him last time I e-mailed him.
John
-----Original Message-----
From: Cwarman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 12:28
To: [email protected]
Subject: Hi from a newbie : Decisions
Hi guys, my first post to this group and im very much a newbie to EV
cars and conversions. Im very much planning on starting one soon and ive
been soaking up every bit of information i can find online. I live in
maine and trying to find a good donor vehicle right now. Im in contact
with two different people about cars that i can buy on the cheap. One is
a 1997 Pontiac Grand Am and the other is a 95 Chevy S-10.
Any problems with converting either of these two vehicles. Ill be
talking to you all very much soon as i get deeper :)))))))))))))))) I
cant wait...
Cwarman
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Thread-Topic: Hi from a newbie : Decisions
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From: "Shelton, John D AW1 \(VP-08\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Cwarman--
MIME-Version: 1.0
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boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C5A4D3.41E08450"
Subject: RE: Project ideas (dreadfully long)
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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:32:50 -0500
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Patrick Plummer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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John, I really enjoy your emails, despite (or maybe because of) the =
length. :) I now have a folder where I save most of them because of =
the great info and useful links you include. It's called "Westlund" =
right after "Wayland" where I save Plasmaboy's stories and insights.
=20
Thanks!
=20
--Patrick
=20
P.S. To the list: Sorry about the silly attachment on the end of every =
email...my web mail service has no way to send plain text instead of =
HTML.
=20
________________________________
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Westlund
Sent: Thu 8/18/2005 12:29 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Project ideas (dreadfully long)
Welcome, Joe. Guess what? $18k is a huge ass budget for a
conversion. You could make yourself a *very* nice car with
the right selection for a glider.
[Rest of John's great email clipped]
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Subject: RE: Project ideas (dreadfully long)
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Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 10:32:50 -0500
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From: "Patrick Plummer--
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:37:16 -0400
From: Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Dodge Neon
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Any impressions on using a Dodge Neon as a EV conversion ? Anyone
completed one ?
CWarman
>
>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 11:42:04 -0400
From: Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hi from a newbie : Decisions
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Hi Shelton, thanks for the post but nothing came thru on my end, would
you mind resending..thanks
Cwarman
Shelton, John D AW1 (VP-08) wrote:
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [toyota-prius] MPG vs. NGM:Now cents per mile.
Date: Fri, 19 Aug 2005 08:59:13 -0700
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I apreciate your sentiments. However many people would change to electric
if they thought it was cheaper. That's the bottom line. LR.........
> Personally I don't like cents per mile, because it focuses on the dollar
> cost of driving a vehicle.
>
> I'm not building an EV because I want to save money. I'm trying to reduce
> the other negative externalities of burning gasoline (pollution,
> greenhouse gases, politics, terrorism, etc).
--- End Message ---
