EV Digest 4601
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Alternative batteries/mower
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) click , CLick , CLACK ! , KLANK !! , BANG !!!
by "low_b_5" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by bo zo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: click , CLick , CLACK ! , KLANK !! , BANG !!!
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: TEVan Surging
by James H Wolfe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: click , CLick , CLACK ! , KLANK !! , BANG !!!
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: click , CLick , CLACK ! , KLANK !! , BANG !!!
by jimevdl <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: click , CLick , CLACK ! , KLANK !! , BANG !!!
by "low_b_5" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by "John J Januszewski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 100 mile range,
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Alternative batteries/mower
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by Tim Clevenger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Cwarman wrote:
> Yes, everyone has told me how much better the Zilla is over the
> Curtis... I'm on a limited budget so i was trying to find ways
> to help myself out is all.
If cost was no object, of course we would all go with the best available
for everything in life. But cost *is* a factor. Far more Curtis
controllers are sold because they are cheaper and do the job "good
enough" for most people.
I've been running a Curtis 1231C in my EV for years. Yes, it has a
little whistle below 1 mph -- I treat it as a "people warner" because
the car is otherwise so silent that it is easy to hit pedestrians who
don't expect the car to move. Yes, it's performance is perhaps half that
of a 'Zilla -- but that doesn't matter to me; it's an around-town
economy car, not a high performance sports car. And, it was half the
price of the Zilla, allowing me to spend money on other things that I
also wanted -- better batteries, an E-meter, etc.
If you're like most of us, your EV needs to have a budget. You decide
what you can afford to spend; then make the best decisions possible
under the circumstances. When money is tight, you can forgo luxuries, or
put them off to add later (will have a heater, but save air conditioning
until next year).
Put your money into the most important parts first. I'd say first
priority is batteries, then the charger, then instrumentation, the
motor, and the controller last. Every link in this chain has to work;
but having the weakest link being the controller will be a lot less
expensive in the long run than any of these others. A weak controller
limits how fast you can go, but still works. Weaknesses in the rest of
these will make the EV too frustrating or unreliable to use, or cause
expensive or dangerous breakdowns.
Buying used or surplus parts can save a lot of money. Motors, chargers,
wiring, etc. don't really wear out, so used is as good as new.
Make things yourself where you have the skills -- you will work for
yourself cheaper than anyone else!
Plus, one good thing about EVs is that they are so simple to upgrade. If
you make a bad choice for a component, all is not lost -- it is easy to
replace it with something better!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Lawn mower project has hit a bump in the road , It looks like the
hydraulic drive system , with hydraulic motors on each of the 2 big wheels
which drive and steer the mower are wasting allot of power . I'm at 72 volts
( 6 excides orbitals ) and with the motor running at the same speed as the
gas engine (3600RPM) it is pulling 100 amps , without the blades on , and
140 to 180amps while cutting . One yard can use 30 ahs when run like the
gas engine . Slowing the motor down can cut back power use to 15 ah but this
is running very slow. The other side of the coin is how nice it is NOT to
have the noisey ,smelly , hot gas engine going . So I'm looking at the
members and trying to make it work. I picked up another frame with the
older style hydro's that used chains to drive the wheels and I'm thinking of
replacing these hydraulic motors with smaller 2 electric motors , I'm also
thinking that running the 8" motor at 3600 rpm is using allot of power where
if I put a bigger pulley on the motor I could turn the blades at the right
speed with the electric motor running at 1/2 the rpm . I'm thinking about
Li ion batteries down the road to get longer run time and still keep thing
light. .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Doug Hartley"
Another observation on Li Ion batteries:
I think that Valence is a good battery choice that I expect will gain
market share. At the moment it seems more expensive up front, but
considering the expected cycle life, and the BMS included, looks very
attractive to me.
right now I'm using about 1 dollar of gas to cut each yard I do . So if I
get 2 yards on a cycle ( 60 ah %50 dod on a 135ah battery) and 2000 cycles =
4000 yards for 8000 dollars worth of batteries , 2 dollars a yard , This
really is not to bad , and not having to mess with a gas engine ect .
Steve Clunn
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
Hi Jukka and All,
Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would say 2C is already VERY useful.(will write another thread what
I'm talking in here)
For high voltage AC drives maybe but for DC that's rather
light. Though Doug Hartley has had good luck with 300amphr buddy pairs,
100 and 200amphr cells/pair along with an AGM lead pack for peak power.
That works well as when heavier draws are needed the stiffer voltage of
the agm's take the load while the Li-ions take it the other times at
96vdc nom. He doesn't use regs I think but still has good results as he
has such a large pack which is gently charged, discharged.
Among chemistries and individual cells there sure are HUGE differences.
I have sorted cells from normal production line which have less than 1
mohm internal resistance. These cells are 150 ah Li-Mn cells. sagging
was very low and battery got even better after few discherges (temp
about 40 celsius). Very useful already in 5C rates.
I have sorted out also cells with enormous Rint. like 130 mohm. Useful
only in very low 1/10C rates.
This is why I can't use these in my EV I'll sell to reg people which
is too bad as I'd love to have a 250 mile range EV!! If I had money to
spare I might even try them myself. Though for technical people like you,
Doug, Victor, ect they are an interesting way to go.
Many hope to have Lithium cells in sizes starting 100 Ah and up with
0,001% tolerance. quess what... It will never happen. Even if cells
would be very similar they would be scattered around the car and
air/liquid flows would not allow cohorent enough cooling/heating. again
differences in their properties... Even BMS will not flatten out cells
to this tolerance. But do we need that ? nope.
Li-ions are not the only battery with this temp difference
problem as it will kill AGM's too. I like to keep all my batts together
so they all stay withing a degree of each other cutting this problem to
almost nothing. It's a major advantage in my EV having them all in one
spot just for this reason. An insulated, temp controlled batt box or
boxes is worthwhile especially in winter for lead and summer for li-ions,
NiMH.
Thanks to you, Doug and Victor for experimenting with
these batts and letting us know what you find. with the coming recession
and all the new Li-ion chemical factories about to start production, the
price should start dropping faster and hopefully quality control will be
improved as better, cheaper Li-ions are the key to wide speard EV use..
Jerry Dycus
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Sepänkatu 3
11710 RIIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Puh./Fax. +358 19 735 705
GSM +358 440 735 705
www.fevt.com
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And so it goes in a ball of smoke. She was dependable, good mileage .
Never failed to start, first shot with the key. I Bought her severly
abused for 1200 with 170k miles +. Ran her for almost 3 years
before...snif ... before she went, and right in my driveway too.
Ok, so much for dino juice sob story anyway . Its time has
come ...and gone
( STICK IT OIL PRODUCERS EVERY WHERE! )
Hi everyone ! I just signed up as a member and this is post
#1 I still have a very road worthy 89 Honda Prelude...less
I.C.E.... I have been thinking on "electro-frying"
something ...so... I guess this is my chance, and it couldn't have
came at a better time.
Its a front wheel drive, 5 speed std with 4 wheel steering.(4ws) as
its called. Kind of a semi rare car . I feel I will have to go with a
deep cycle lead acid set up. Its tried and true and not as
expensive as the newer li's and nicad's and the charging is well
documented as well. However, I may opt to go with them in the future.
I would be most gratefull for info on adaptor plates, best motor
and controller and charger, to build a daily driver reaching hwy
speed (55 -65 mph) for a 25 mile round trip thats relitively flat,
to work and back and to the store around the corner. Charge at home.
My only slight concern is about hydrogen gas build up. I'll be
using the trunk for the majority of the batt / electrical
compartment. The back seat folds down allowing for a portal through
the trunk.( for golf clubs I think) Whats a good way to get good
venting ,but keep it so water wont soak the inside
I'm good at mechanical, electrical and fabracation and have the
basic tools. However, The adaptor plate I would like to purchase.
If anyone has any 2 cents to add, Something or service they might
want to sell, or even what to call this project? Please, feel free!
Any and all ideas are welcome! I hope to cronical this build on the
web, more than likely on Geo-cities. In the hopes it will help and
inspire others who have had their fill on dino juice too.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lee,
Im kinda in disagerrment with your purchase order the way you described it
"" Put your money into the most important parts first. I'd say first
priority is batteries, then the charger, then instrumentation, the
motor, and the controller last.""
I think Batts would be the last to buy, you want them as fresh as possable.
If your on limited funds , It might take a year or more before all the
components come togather. Why have all those batts just sitting around ?
I'de say get the batts last .
Best Reguards
Phil
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Cwarman wrote:
> Yes, everyone has told me how much better the Zilla is over the
> Curtis... I'm on a limited budget so i was trying to find ways
> to help myself out is all.
If cost was no object, of course we would all go with the best available
for everything in life. But cost *is* a factor. Far more Curtis
controllers are sold because they are cheaper and do the job "good
enough" for most people.
I've been running a Curtis 1231C in my EV for years. Yes, it has a
little whistle below 1 mph -- I treat it as a "people warner" because
the car is otherwise so silent that it is easy to hit pedestrians who
don't expect the car to move. Yes, it's performance is perhaps half that
of a 'Zilla -- but that doesn't matter to me; it's an around-town
economy car, not a high performance sports car. And, it was half the
price of the Zilla, allowing me to spend money on other things that I
also wanted -- better batteries, an E-meter, etc.
If you're like most of us, your EV needs to have a budget. You decide
what you can afford to spend; then make the best decisions possible
under the circumstances. When money is tight, you can forgo luxuries, or
put them off to add later (will have a heater, but save air conditioning
until next year).
Every link in this chain has to work;
but having the weakest link being the controller will be a lot less
expensive in the long run than any of these others. A weak controller
limits how fast you can go, but still works. Weaknesses in the rest of
these will make the EV too frustrating or unreliable to use, or cause
expensive or dangerous breakdowns.
Buying used or surplus parts can save a lot of money. Motors, chargers,
wiring, etc. don't really wear out, so used is as good as new.
Make things yourself where you have the skills -- you will work for
yourself cheaper than anyone else!
Plus, one good thing about EVs is that they are so simple to upgrade. If
you make a bad choice for a component, all is not lost -- it is easy to
replace it with something better!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- low_b_5 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And so it goes in a ball of smoke.
Hi Phil;
Welcome to the Wonderful World of EV's Ya came to
the right place for ideas and info. You hava very
reasonable "window" to build a car , I mean reasonable
desires. Hondas are common for conversions. I'm sure a
Honda Guy will chime in here. Pointers I think are in
effect: Hondas run the oposite direction, IE when the
motor's built up to the tranny, it runs opposite to
standard cars. That is good that you had a 5 speed.
for bet results you can use clutch an' flywheel, buy
or build anadapter plate, coupling and hardware to
connect things.You want to keep the clutch and use the
gears when you drive the car. Forinstance SHIFT into
reverse, rather than expensive reversing contacters.
also it is a hellova lot easier to shift using the
clutch.
Go led acids for your "training Wheels" as you get
the hang of it, go for better batteries and battery
managment systems. Fancy words for chargers. Common
terms here EVerybody murders their first pack,
although I got 22K out of a USED set of Trojans. You
can hit up battery places that often take year old
packs, resell for about 15-20 bux each.A Warp 8 inch
motor and Zilla controller will be a happy start in
the hardware dept. Keep in mind that EV stuff will
outlast gas stuff. A motor; Think Family hairloom,
controllers live quite well if not beaten on too hard.
Batteries, well.how good a horse trader ya are.Talk
up battery places WHJERE in the country you are? If
there is a EAA chapter near you? Check their
website.Don't go this alone. We are here, to help.Not
to mention the great circle of new friends you will
pick up. Usually EAA Guyz get together , like second
sat of each month, it varies, check the website.
If yur in Portland area come on out to th Woodburn
dragstrip, or Portland Raceway this coming Labor day
Weakend.Worth the trip from anywhere, I'm coming from
Connecticut, a 6 week motor, well ENGINE trip in a
Prius.There you will see the Off the Deep end racing
EV's Nothing else like it in the world. Think 100 mph
in the quarter. OK that IS off the deep end, my Rabbit
wallows up to 53 in the quarter, yawn! I have run
faster trains!But it has 1200 lbs of batteries, so I
need the range. Had to go 54 mile commute, if I
couldn't plug it in there I could still get home! So
think WHAT you are building the car for sure.One size
doesnt fit all.
You will get alota other ideas, I'm sure. So don't
be afraid to ask, no question is too small or silly.
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TEVan Surging
From:
Nick Austin
I just received my new TEVan!
The shifter and parking break was broken, but they were very easy to fix.
On thing that is worrying me a little, is that the car is surging when I press
the accelerator. Is this a known issue with the TEVan? Perhaps I need to
accelerate a little more slowly?
Sounds like you have a problem. It should accelerate from a dead stop
even smoother than a Curtis controlled EV, (no jerk to start).It does
regen after a second when in low gear and you let off the accelerator
though.
Does it behave the same in Hi range? It will accelerate just as smoothly
from a dead stop in Hi range.
And lastly but not least important, do you have the service manual?
Anyways, it is so cool to own such a neat EV!
If it is anything like my experience, it will get better with age!
Here's hoping it has a lot of life left :)
If your charging system is working properly you should be good for at
least 100K miles.
Do you have the Ni-Cad or the Ni-Fe batteries?
And you could always join the TEVan group on Yahoo.
Good luck and keep grinnin that EVGrin.
Jim
'93 Dodge TEVan
"Breathe Easy, It's Electric"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Phil,
Beyond welcoming you to the list and wishing you the best on your project,
I don't really have anything productive to say that others won't be able
to explain far better than I can.
I just wanted to say "wow" on your choice of donor vehicle -- The old
(89-91) 4WS Preludes have been a subject of fascination for me for some
time, and were one of the first cars I was interested in converting to an
EV, way back when... The only problem is that they are indeed *rare*; I
was never able to find one to buy. I saw a red '91 on the road here in
Austin once a couple years ago and I followed it for a few blocks just to
get a better look at it (it was in beautiful condition) and watch it make
turns. A really cool thing, to see those rear wheels pivot.
Of course, since then my goals and strategy have changed multiple times,
and so now (for numerous practical reasons I won't go into here) I'm
converting a compact pickup truck, which is so fundamentally not my style
it's kind of funny. Eh, go figure.
--chris
low_b_5 said:
> And so it goes in a ball of smoke. She was dependable, good mileage .
> Never failed to start, first shot with the key. I Bought her severly
> abused for 1200 with 170k miles +. Ran her for almost 3 years
> before...snif ... before she went, and right in my driveway too.
> Ok, so much for dino juice sob story anyway . Its time has
> come ...and gone
> ( STICK IT OIL PRODUCERS EVERY WHERE! )
> Hi everyone ! I just signed up as a member and this is post
> #1 I still have a very road worthy 89 Honda Prelude...less
> I.C.E.... I have been thinking on "electro-frying"
> something ...so... I guess this is my chance, and it couldn't have
> came at a better time.
> Its a front wheel drive, 5 speed std with 4 wheel steering.(4ws) as
> its called. Kind of a semi rare car . I feel I will have to go with a
> deep cycle lead acid set up. Its tried and true and not as
> expensive as the newer li's and nicad's and the charging is well
> documented as well. However, I may opt to go with them in the future.
> I would be most gratefull for info on adaptor plates, best motor
> and controller and charger, to build a daily driver reaching hwy
> speed (55 -65 mph) for a 25 mile round trip thats relitively flat,
> to work and back and to the store around the corner. Charge at home.
> My only slight concern is about hydrogen gas build up. I'll be
> using the trunk for the majority of the batt / electrical
> compartment. The back seat folds down allowing for a portal through
> the trunk.( for golf clubs I think) Whats a good way to get good
> venting ,but keep it so water wont soak the inside
> I'm good at mechanical, electrical and fabracation and have the
> basic tools. However, The adaptor plate I would like to purchase.
> If anyone has any 2 cents to add, Something or service they might
> want to sell, or even what to call this project? Please, feel free!
> Any and all ideas are welcome! I hope to cronical this build on the
> web, more than likely on Geo-cities. In the hopes it will help and
> inspire others who have had their fill on dino juice too.
> Phil
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Phil,
Welcome.
I had a similar concern (H2 build-up in trunk) for my Celica. I have my
charger and it's cord in the trunk. When I get home from work, I just pop open
the trunk, pull out the cord, and plug in. I leave the trunk open when I'm
charging. This also helps me avoid driving off with the charger plugged in.
Some day I'll put in forced ventilation, and a charger interlock.
If you do ventilate, be sure you suck air out, not force it into your trunk. If
you force it in, it will exit through your intended vents, but also through the
back seats.
One other comment, which is directed to you, but also in response to another
thread I saw about timing of buying your components. A mistake I made was to
buy my motor, controller, and all the components (except batteries) at the
start of my conversion. By the time I had the car finished, my 1 year warranty
had expired on all my high dollar pieces. Unfortunately, the controller was
kaput, and it cost me several hundred dollars to get it fixed.
I would buy the motor first, to make the adapters and get the drive train in
place. Do this right and spend all the time and money you need- I know at least
3 EV projects that suffered because the drive train wasn't quite right- big
pain to fix later.
Next, I would decide on a battery, and buy only one, or get a junk one from the
dealer (I got a junk one for free) to help fabricate your battery boxes or
hold-downs. Finally, spend the big bucks on the controller and other
electronics, so you're warranty can do the most for you, if you need it.
Lastly, buy the batteries.
Best regards, Jim Seibert
-----Original Message-----
From: low_b_5 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Aug 20, 2005 10:50 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: click , CLick , CLACK ! , KLANK !! , BANG !!!
And so it goes in a ball of smoke. She was dependable, good mileage .
Never failed to start, first shot with the key. I Bought her severly
abused for 1200 with 170k miles +. Ran her for almost 3 years
before...snif ... before she went, and right in my driveway too.
Ok, so much for dino juice sob story anyway . Its time has
come ...and gone
( STICK IT OIL PRODUCERS EVERY WHERE! )
Hi everyone ! I just signed up as a member and this is post
#1 I still have a very road worthy 89 Honda Prelude...less
I.C.E.... I have been thinking on "electro-frying"
something ...so... I guess this is my chance, and it couldn't have
came at a better time.
Its a front wheel drive, 5 speed std with 4 wheel steering.(4ws) as
its called. Kind of a semi rare car . I feel I will have to go with a
deep cycle lead acid set up. Its tried and true and not as
expensive as the newer li's and nicad's and the charging is well
documented as well. However, I may opt to go with them in the future.
I would be most gratefull for info on adaptor plates, best motor
and controller and charger, to build a daily driver reaching hwy
speed (55 -65 mph) for a 25 mile round trip thats relitively flat,
to work and back and to the store around the corner. Charge at home.
My only slight concern is about hydrogen gas build up. I'll be
using the trunk for the majority of the batt / electrical
compartment. The back seat folds down allowing for a portal through
the trunk.( for golf clubs I think) Whats a good way to get good
venting ,but keep it so water wont soak the inside
I'm good at mechanical, electrical and fabracation and have the
basic tools. However, The adaptor plate I would like to purchase.
If anyone has any 2 cents to add, Something or service they might
want to sell, or even what to call this project? Please, feel free!
Any and all ideas are welcome! I hope to cronical this build on the
web, more than likely on Geo-cities. In the hopes it will help and
inspire others who have had their fill on dino juice too.
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> .
>
> Hi Phil;
>
> Welcome to the Wonderful World of EV's Ya came to
> the right place for ideas and info.
Thanks a million for the warm reception Bob!
Un fortunatly I live in north Arkansas...yea I know ,,dont say it ..
And as far as I can tell there is not a EV club anywhere around ,
maybe I should start one ...? This will be a single mission car, to
work and home I still have a dino juice van for long trips and
vacations( such as to the north west coast) which wont get used that
much when the Honda is built. I'm really excited to get started! I've
got the hood off and started marking wires. Its just to HOT ! to
stay outside for any length of time down here.
BTW has anyone used a ice chest and a small pump to cerculate ice
water into the heater coil for AC? What I'm getting at is having
a insulated shroud built that will nearly surround the motor and
fill it with ice. This keeps the motor cooler by direct contact and
provides cooling water for AC....?
Phil
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello,
I believe the intent was to prioritize the allotment of money to the items
in that order (get the best batteries you can afford and not the most
expensive controller) and not to purchase them in that order. That's the
way I read it. I could be wrong.
John J Januszewski
www.jcomposites.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "bo zo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 1:31 PM
Subject: Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
Hi Lee,
Im kinda in disagerrment with your purchase order the way you described
it
"" Put your money into the most important parts first. I'd say first
priority is batteries, then the charger, then instrumentation, the
motor, and the controller last.""
I think Batts would be the last to buy, you want them as fresh as
possable. If your on limited funds , It might take a year or more
before all the components come togather. Why have all those batts just
sitting around ? I'de say get the batts last .
Best Reguards
Phil
Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Cwarman wrote:
Yes, everyone has told me how much better the Zilla is over the
Curtis... I'm on a limited budget so i was trying to find ways
to help myself out is all.
If cost was no object, of course we would all go with the best available
for everything in life. But cost *is* a factor. Far more Curtis
controllers are sold because they are cheaper and do the job "good
enough" for most people.
I've been running a Curtis 1231C in my EV for years. Yes, it has a
little whistle below 1 mph -- I treat it as a "people warner" because
the car is otherwise so silent that it is easy to hit pedestrians who
don't expect the car to move. Yes, it's performance is perhaps half that
of a 'Zilla -- but that doesn't matter to me; it's an around-town
economy car, not a high performance sports car. And, it was half the
price of the Zilla, allowing me to spend money on other things that I
also wanted -- better batteries, an E-meter, etc.
If you're like most of us, your EV needs to have a budget. You decide
what you can afford to spend; then make the best decisions possible
under the circumstances. When money is tight, you can forgo luxuries, or
put them off to add later (will have a heater, but save air conditioning
until next year).
Every link in this chain has to work;
but having the weakest link being the controller will be a lot less
expensive in the long run than any of these others. A weak controller
limits how fast you can go, but still works. Weaknesses in the rest of
these will make the EV too frustrating or unreliable to use, or cause
expensive or dangerous breakdowns.
Buying used or surplus parts can save a lot of money. Motors, chargers,
wiring, etc. don't really wear out, so used is as good as new.
Make things yourself where you have the skills -- you will work for
yourself cheaper than anyone else!
Plus, one good thing about EVs is that they are so simple to upgrade. If
you make a bad choice for a component, all is not lost -- it is easy to
replace it with something better!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
__________________________________________________
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Steve,
I don't know where Jon got his information from, but he got it backwards.
Okeechobee is 11 feet higher than Ft. Pierce, not 10 feet lower. I just
instinctively knew what Jon told you must be wrong immediately when I read
it (because locations inland generally tend to be higher than at the coast,
not lower, unless you're talking about a few rare anomalies like Death
Valley in CA or the Dead Sea in Palestine), so I pulled out my Miami
Sectional (aeronautical) Chart to check it. The elevation at St. Lucie
County Int'l Airport (FPR) there in Ft. Pierce is 23 feet MSL. The
elevation at Okeechobee County Airport (OBE) in Okeechobee is 34 feet MSL.
So you were actually driving uphill, NOT downhill, most of the way --
specifically on two out of your three legs -- FPR to OBE twice (uphill) and
OBE to FPR once (downhill).
Charles
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
sorry that should be feet , and theirs my problem , attention to details .
:-) The 100 mile on a charge was my idea in the first place which I
copied for Rich 's 100 in the 1/4 , but I can see Jon's point , somebody
could drive 100 miles and if it was all down hill this wouldn't be fair to
others . But how fair is it that I load up the truck with a delivery of
batteries and run off them.? Jon was OK with that , . the point is to have
a
web page with battery EV's that have gone over 100 miles on a charge.
anyone
wanting to get in the 100 mile on a charge club should e mail Jon first
for
the details before doing the run. This could be a good way to get a
newspaper story in your local paper . "local EV driver to attempt 100 mile
run , to enter 100 mile hall of fame :-) Next time ......
steve clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <
It's Florida isn't it. When you say 10 miles lower in altitude you are
joking. I didn't think much of Florida was more than 200 feet above sea
level. LR.........
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
awhile back I changed out the 25 golf cart bats in my work truck , I
planed to put the old truck batteries in the Toyota torcell project which
I have in Okeechobee 30 miles away . I figured this would be a good time
to do a 100 mile run and get in the www.grassrootsev.com 100 mile on a
charge club. I loaded up the truck with the , still good batteries and
wired the two packs in parallel. The plan was to drive to Okeechobee then
back to Fort Pierce where I live then back again , and do a extra 10 miles
to make the 100, . I had no problem about having enough juice , and with
the batteries pushed as far forward in the bed the truck drove fine at 40
to 50 mph / drove mostly at about 40 pulling 80 amps and ended using about
180 ah and a voltage over 11v with load. Jon an old friend of mine , and
the web master nailed me with one small detail , Okeechobee is 10 miles
lower than Fort Pierce and as I drove there twice but back only once I was
going down hill more than up :-( . I would have been ok if I had gone 50
miles one way and then back or 25 miles 4 times .
Steve Clunn
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Yup, this is why I try to talk people out of using hydraulics on
battery powered systems. Even the best of 'em are quite inefficient
compared to electrics. Hydraulics work when you need a lot of power
in a small space. Nothing beats a hydraulic motor for HP per unit
volume.
Here are some design considerations:
Keep the velocity of the fluid low, and certainly out of the turbulent
flow range. It is a good idea to do some Reynolds number calcs. That
info is readily available via google.
Use as thin a fluid as you can. This increases pump and motor losses
from leakage but much more greatly reduces flow losses. Consider
diesel fuel or even kerosene with an extreme pressure additive. Keep
the fluid cool to avoid cavitation losses.
Low volume, high pressure is the best route. Use oversized hoses,
again to minimize the velocity of the fluid.
No machined 90deg elbows if possible. Where 90's must be used, try to
use large radius bent tubing.
Use a high volume, low RPM pump, using a gearbox if necessary. A low
speed, high torque motor would be better. The gearbox losses will be
less than the shear losses in a high RPM pump.
Avoid valves, reducers and other sharp transitions in the fluid path
that can set up turbulence.
Make sure there is no backpressure in the fluid return lines. For low
loss systems, I generally avoid a full time suction line filter.
Ideally a separate loop would be set up for filtering. Alternatively,
provide a filter bypass. Filter only when on shore power.
Backpressure does more harm than might be apparent from just the
consideration of pressure. Backpressure makes the fluid back up in
the motors, causing more turbulence losses. Whenever it can be
arranged, the motor should discharge into a large sloping tube open to
air
Use a bladder or diaphragm breather on the fluid tank so that the
fluid system can be hermetic while allowing for expansion. If the
system is open, moisture will condense in the tank. When it mixes
with the oil (actually an emulsion), it increases the viscosity and
pumping losses.
Consider "porting and polishing" the fluid passages in both the pump
and motors. Especially in low cost components, little mind is paid to
flow paths. Opening them up and smoothing them can help a lot,
particularly if your hydraulic fluid is viscous.
You have the ideal setup for optimizing the system with the electric
motor having an ammeter. Just tune the system for the lowest amps no
load at a given RPM.
John
On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:24:30 -0500, "STEVE CLUNN"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>My Lawn mower project has hit a bump in the road , It looks like the
>hydraulic drive system , with hydraulic motors on each of the 2 big wheels
>which drive and steer the mower are wasting allot of power . I'm at 72 volts
>( 6 excides orbitals ) and with the motor running at the same speed as the
>gas engine (3600RPM) it is pulling 100 amps , without the blades on , and
>140 to 180amps while cutting . One yard can use 30 ahs when run like the
>gas engine . Slowing the motor down can cut back power use to 15 ah but this
>is running very slow. The other side of the coin is how nice it is NOT to
>have the noisey ,smelly , hot gas engine going . So I'm looking at the
>members and trying to make it work. I picked up another frame with the
>older style hydro's that used chains to drive the wheels and I'm thinking of
>replacing these hydraulic motors with smaller 2 electric motors , I'm also
>thinking that running the 8" motor at 3600 rpm is using allot of power where
>if I put a bigger pulley on the motor I could turn the blades at the right
>speed with the electric motor running at 1/2 the rpm . I'm thinking about
>Li ion batteries down the road to get longer run time and still keep thing
>light. .
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Doug Hartley"
>>
>> Another observation on Li Ion batteries:
>> I think that Valence is a good battery choice that I expect will gain
>> market share. At the moment it seems more expensive up front, but
>> considering the expected cycle life, and the BMS included, looks very
>> attractive to me.
>>
>right now I'm using about 1 dollar of gas to cut each yard I do . So if I
>get 2 yards on a cycle ( 60 ah %50 dod on a 135ah battery) and 2000 cycles =
>4000 yards for 8000 dollars worth of batteries , 2 dollars a yard , This
>really is not to bad , and not having to mess with a gas engine ect .
>Steve Clunn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:02 PM
>> Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
>>
>>
>>> Hi Jukka and All,
>>>
>>> Jukka Järvinen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> I would say 2C is already VERY useful.(will write another thread what
>>> I'm talking in here)
>>>
>>>
>>> For high voltage AC drives maybe but for DC that's rather
>>> light. Though Doug Hartley has had good luck with 300amphr buddy pairs,
>>> 100 and 200amphr cells/pair along with an AGM lead pack for peak power.
>>> That works well as when heavier draws are needed the stiffer voltage of
>>> the agm's take the load while the Li-ions take it the other times at
>>> 96vdc nom. He doesn't use regs I think but still has good results as he
>>> has such a large pack which is gently charged, discharged.
>>>
>>>
>>> Among chemistries and individual cells there sure are HUGE differences.
>>>
>>> I have sorted cells from normal production line which have less than 1
>>> mohm internal resistance. These cells are 150 ah Li-Mn cells. sagging
>>> was very low and battery got even better after few discherges (temp
>>> about 40 celsius). Very useful already in 5C rates.
>>>
>>> I have sorted out also cells with enormous Rint. like 130 mohm. Useful
>>> only in very low 1/10C rates.
>>>
>>>
>>> This is why I can't use these in my EV I'll sell to reg people which
>>> is too bad as I'd love to have a 250 mile range EV!! If I had money to
>>> spare I might even try them myself. Though for technical people like you,
>>> Doug, Victor, ect they are an interesting way to go.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Many hope to have Lithium cells in sizes starting 100 Ah and up with
>>> 0,001% tolerance. quess what... It will never happen. Even if cells
>>> would be very similar they would be scattered around the car and
>>> air/liquid flows would not allow cohorent enough cooling/heating. again
>>> differences in their properties... Even BMS will not flatten out cells
>>> to this tolerance. But do we need that ? nope.
>>>
>>>
>>> Li-ions are not the only battery with this temp difference
>>> problem as it will kill AGM's too. I like to keep all my batts together
>>> so they all stay withing a degree of each other cutting this problem to
>>> almost nothing. It's a major advantage in my EV having them all in one
>>> spot just for this reason. An insulated, temp controlled batt box or
>>> boxes is worthwhile especially in winter for lead and summer for li-ions,
>>> NiMH.
>>>
>>> Thanks to you, Doug and Victor for experimenting with
>>> these batts and letting us know what you find. with the coming recession
>>> and all the new Li-ion chemical factories about to start production, the
>>> price should start dropping faster and hopefully quality control will be
>>> improved as better, cheaper Li-ions are the key to wide speard EV use..
>>>
>>> Jerry Dycus
>>>
>>>
>>> Jukka Järvinen
>>> R&D Director
>>> Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
>>> Sepänkatu 3
>>> 11710 RIIHIMÄKI
>>> FINLAND
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Puh./Fax. +358 19 735 705
>>> GSM +358 440 735 705
>>> www.fevt.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>>>
>>
>>
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
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Lee you wrote below thats "its performance is perhalf half that of a
'zilla' " Can anyone explain the performance difference. Are we
talking about the use of the battery power, the quickness of
acceleration, or ?? Outside of the slight hum you hear with the curtis..
CWarman
Lee Hart wrote:
Cwarman wrote:
Yes, everyone has told me how much better the Zilla is over the
Curtis... I'm on a limited budget so i was trying to find ways
to help myself out is all.
If cost was no object, of course we would all go with the best available
for everything in life. But cost *is* a factor. Far more Curtis
controllers are sold because they are cheaper and do the job "good
enough" for most people.
I've been running a Curtis 1231C in my EV for years. Yes, it has a
little whistle below 1 mph -- I treat it as a "people warner" because
the car is otherwise so silent that it is easy to hit pedestrians who
don't expect the car to move. Yes, it's performance is perhaps half that
of a 'Zilla -- but that doesn't matter to me; it's an around-town
economy car, not a high performance sports car. And, it was half the
price of the Zilla, allowing me to spend money on other things that I
also wanted -- better batteries, an E-meter, etc.
If you're like most of us, your EV needs to have a budget. You decide
what you can afford to spend; then make the best decisions possible
under the circumstances. When money is tight, you can forgo luxuries, or
put them off to add later (will have a heater, but save air conditioning
until next year).
Put your money into the most important parts first. I'd say first
priority is batteries, then the charger, then instrumentation, the
motor, and the controller last. Every link in this chain has to work;
but having the weakest link being the controller will be a lot less
expensive in the long run than any of these others. A weak controller
limits how fast you can go, but still works. Weaknesses in the rest of
these will make the EV too frustrating or unreliable to use, or cause
expensive or dangerous breakdowns.
Buying used or surplus parts can save a lot of money. Motors, chargers,
wiring, etc. don't really wear out, so used is as good as new.
Make things yourself where you have the skills -- you will work for
yourself cheaper than anyone else!
Plus, one good thing about EVs is that they are so simple to upgrade. If
you make a bad choice for a component, all is not lost -- it is easy to
replace it with something better!
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You might check the Tradin' Post (http://evalbum.com and click on
Tradin' Post)
to see if you can pick up any parts used. I can't get into it right
now, but
I thought there was an 8" or 9" ADC motor on there cheaper than new.
Don't
forget that you can sell your ICE and its related components on eBay
if they
still work.
Tim
On Aug 20, 2005, at 8:20 AM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 20, 2005 5:15:32 AM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
Hi Tim,
Thanks for the reply....Yes everyone has told me how much better
the Zilla is over the Curtis and i truely believe all of you and
from everything i read its true. Im on a limited budget so i was
trying to find ways to help myself out is all. I wish it wasnt
like this, ill prolly spend the money and get the Warp Engine and
the Zilla. Anyone of any other ways to shave some dollars off the
rest of what i need ?
Thanks
Cwarman
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Newb here,
I've seen a few conversions where the person built their own motor
controller (one that was capable of controlling up to 1000 amps) but I'm
unable to get specifics or schematics for such home made controllers. Do any
of you have clues where I could look for such information?
Junkyman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cwarman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 20, 2005 7:15 AM
Subject: Re: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
Hi Tim,
Thanks for the reply....Yes everyone has told me how much better the Zilla
is over the Curtis and i truely believe all of you and from everything i
read its true. Im on a limited budget so i was trying to find ways to
help myself out is all. I wish it wasnt like this, ill prolly spend the
money and get the Warp Engine and the Zilla. Anyone of any other ways to
shave some dollars off the rest of what i need ?
Thanks
Cwarman
Tim Clevenger wrote:
Hi Cwarman,
Unless you're talking about a very small vehicle (like a motorcycle),
I can't imagine anybody on this list will recommend a Curtis over a
Zilla. The flexibility, reliability, power and support of the Zilla
is in a different league completely.
Tim
On Aug 19, 2005, at 5:53 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: August 19, 2005 2:16:56 PM PDT
To: [email protected]
Subject: Warp 9 / S10 / Zilla Controller
Hey Guys, ok im back....i made my first purchase and your right i
wanted to what was right for me. I bought the 1997 Chevy S-10. I live
in northern maine and we have big winters here so wanted a truck if i
could. Its 2 wheel drive and a small area to heat. I can use the bed
for batterys etc and wotn have to worry about fumes, while charging
etc. Even those people are continually talking about weight is ee that
there are alot of S-10 conversions around. I cant wait to get started
tearing out the ICE...
I think im gonna go with a WARP 9 DC motor.
I heard people say the Zilla 1k is well worth the money over a curtis
controller. Any thoughts? As the price is substantially more expensive
(approx $500 more).
Any input would be helpfull...
Thanks
Cwarman
.
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