EV Digest 4612
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Plus and Minus Together
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Zilla Backorders
by Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New EVs from Asia
by "Mark McCurdy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Plus and Minus Together
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Plus and Minus Together
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
by "David Roden (Akron OH USA)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Buck controller for little motors
by Chris Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Netgain Warp Dimensions
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Curves of batteries
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 220VAC Iota
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 2 golf cart motors?
by Tony Godshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Zilla Backorders
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 220VAC Iota
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Who's Using Marathon NiCads?
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Plus and Minus Together
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Plus and Minus Together
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Plus and Minus Together
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Buck controller for little motors
by Seth Allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Russco vs Zivan vs PFC
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Valence Lithium-ion
by keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
But what a way to impress the girls...
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: August 22, 2005 5:17 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Plus and Minus Together
Actually, the problem is much more serious. Look beyond your own performance
degradation and see the larger social problem. If you are using a Zilla
controller, then your car will pick up a manhole cover and then let it fall
back to the ground, repeatedly, at 15.7KHz. The resulting damage to the road
surface and the manhole cover (not to mention the ear-shattering noise)
would not be the best impression for an EV to leave.
Please, think of the road crews.
--chris
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
> If you run the power cables on opposite sides of the car it creates a
> large electromagnet. Thus, when driving down the road you will be
> picking up man hole covers. That really hurts the performance. Think
> of all the added weight you're picking up. Keep them close together.
> John :)
> -----------------------------------------------------
> <snip> <snip>
> . Anytime power wires carrying the same current
>> in
>> opposite directions are not in close proximity, they form a loop. A
>> loop is very much like an antenna and it transmits unwanted
>> electrical noise.
>> Signal wires should also be run in sets. It is best to keep all the
>> wires for a given circuit in a tight bundle."
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Dave, nice to meet you...Agree being busy is a good thing but im so
excited to get started and the controller is one thing I really need
that i cant wait 8 weeks for.. sigh :(
Cwarman
Dave Cover wrote:
Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is it true there is like a 2 months backorder or wait time for the
1k Zilla Controllers ?
Yes, it is true.
And it's well worth the wait!
I hand build every Zilla and usually have a good idea where they are.
I don't know anyone who has stock. Just a couple weeks ago, for the
first time in a year I had factory stock on six units, but within a
week they sold out.
It's always great news when a good vendor is busy. We need to support each other to keep EV's going. I've noticed a number of new people introducing themselves to the list lately. Let's hope this is a trend. It's most likely a reaction to the cost of fuel, but let's use the momentum to our advantage.
The more EVs out there, the more interest from new people which leads to more projects started which leads to more sales for vendors which leads to even better products which leads to more EVs......
Now if we could just get a LiIon vendor in the loop.
I'm one adapter plate away from having all the parts, and that will be here
soon (I hope.) Driving an EV this fall? Maybe.
Dave Cover
.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
to me it doesn't look like it would add that much weight because it's
replacing the hardware that the hub connected to anyway, doubt it weighs 5
pounds more, maybe less
bearings wise, it probably uses heavey wheel bearings and looks to have an
input/output tubing, probably for a cooling liquid since it appears to be
completely sealed and not vented in any way
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: New EVs from Asia
The only thing I don't like about hub motors is the weight of the car
is on those motor shafts.. Also it making the suspension "heavy".
Heavy car... bumpy road... That motor would be taking a pounding..
The bearing(s) at least. What about the odd load angles the motor
would experience? Maybe they have angular roller bearings?
Pic of the motor:
http://media.mitsubishi-motors.com/pressrelease/e/corporate/detail1269.html
Not to mention, the motor is probably always going to be on the small
size due to weight and maybe even size.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That hasn't been my experience. Where I last worked we put them far
apart. One reason is that normal contamination (dirt, salts moisture)
can cause current to flow across the plastic covers. Keeping full pack
potential more than a long wrench length apart is a very good reason,
also. Not to mention how far an arc will travel once it is started.
Seth
On Aug 22, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Provided you have enough distance so it won't arc over (I assume
this is the case), it makes no difference.
Bill Dennis wrote:
This leads me to a second, related question. I've been designing my
battery
boxes so that the + and - cables connect at opposite ends of the box,
in
order to avoid having two cells next to each other that were at far
different voltages. Does that make sense, or should the + and -
cables exit
the box on adjacent cells so that they're close to each other?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill Dennis wrote:
> I've been designing my battery
> boxes so that the + and - cables connect at opposite ends of the box, in
> order to avoid having two cells next to each other that were at far
> different voltages. Does that make sense, or should the + and - cables exit
> the box on adjacent cells so that they're close to each other?
I was planning on having the battery at each end of the string right
next to each other in order to keep the cables as short as possible
and also to keep them together.
Anyone see a potential problem that I don't?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Aug 2005 at 16:48, Cwarman wrote:
> Im wondering if on a limited budget if this is an area that i could
> scrimp just a tad and go with a Russco or Zivan for $500-$700 cheaper than
> the cheapest PFC ?
WARNING: The following is NOT an endorsement nor is it based on personal
experience, but rather on hearsay and personal use by friends. My own EV
chargers, except for the homemade ones, have carried such names as
Vanguard, Lester, Cybortronics, K&W, Solectria, and Brusa.
So take it for what it's worth. <g>
Believe it or not, the most "feature-y" charger you name is probably the Zivan.
It is 100% isolated and has microprocessor control with temperature
compensation (optional sender required) and various charge profiles for
different chemistries.
Ah, but the devil is in the details. The Zivan is a rather cheaply made
charger
and has demonstrated some reliability problems. Obtaining support can also
be a challenge. Its AGM algorithms reportely murder AGMs by severely
overcharging them. If you want to change pack voltage or battery type, you
have to send it back to the distributor for modification, a pain for those
folks
who like to experiment. It is not a true PFC charger, though there are much
worse (the old K&W BC-20s come to mind ;-). Zivans are apparently better
for flooded batteries than for AGMs.
Bottom line: Zivan chargers offer a lot for the money, if you're prepared to
deal
with their limitations.
Quite a bit has been written on this list about the PFC chargers, thanks in
part to an enthusiastic user base, and the very welcome participation here of
their designer. I don't really think I have anything to add to that, nor do I
need
to, as Rich can speak for himself and generally does.
Much less has appeared here about the Russco, even though I'm pretty sure
it's been around about as long. Russ Kauffman regrettably seldom
contributes to this list, and doesn't maintain a website, so he and his
chargers aren't usually "top of mind." But Russ is a real EV electronics
veteran, having designed a fairly well-regarded (if not particularly widely
available) motor controller in the 1980s and a liquid-coolant cabin heater in
the 1990s. The Russco is also PFC. It doesn't have the same boost
capability that Rich's PFC charger has; for outputs above input voltage, it
requires an auxiliary boost transformer, which adds significant expense and
weight. But I'd say it's certainly worth considering.
Note that neither Rich's nor Russ's chargers are isolated from the power line.
Although the Russco has a built-in GFI to provide some level of protection,
neither a Russco nor a Manzanita PFC will be as inherently safe from
electrical shock hazards as a fully isolated charger such as the Zivan. The
Russco appears to have some (optional) additional flexibility in charge
control, including a temperature probe, but neither one has what you'd call
"real" microprocessor control.
Whether you need individual module level regulators depends on several
factors, mainly what kind of battery you use. Flooded batteries seldom need
them.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, a question:
My Elec-trak is now powered by 30 40ah NiCDs. Which is great, however
running taps on the pack is a bad idea. I have a number of 18 volt
appliances that I want to run off the tractor power supply.
The question is how do I step 36 volts down to 18 volts DC? I could go
with a DC-DC converter, but I need something that can peak at around
20-40 amps at 18 volts. I could go with a 36 volt motor turning an 18
volt motor; that's one possibility.
Could I just use a Curtis controller somehow?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland wrote:
>Even though your motor is in the parallel axis of the rear axle U
joint, there is a >offset distance between these two parallel lines.
When I jack up my EV, my >offset for a GM with a 6-foot drive line
distance is 4 inches. When the car is >down on the ground this offset
is about 1 to 2 inches which is 1 to 1.5 percent.
The pinion angle needs to be dialed in for it to be ideally setup:
"excessive pinion angle can bind the u-joints up pretty good and rob
quite a bit of horsepower. It's not at all unusual for a car to pick
up 2-3 tenths and as many mph
after getting this straightened out. Also, excessive pinion angle is
often the real culprit behind broken parts."
Good article on it:
http://www.carcraft.com/howto/91758/
Lots of articles:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2005-07,GGLD:en&q=pinion+angle
Use something like this to see what your pinion angle currently is:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=34214
If you have leaf springs, you can use shims to adjust it. If you have
coil springs, you need either adjustable upper or lower control arms.
Having both be adjustable, you can make sure the rear axle is squarely
aligned and straight with the front wheels.
"According to Currie, the average car crafter should strive for
between 1 and 3 degrees between the tail shaft of the transmission and
drive shaft, and 1 to 3 degrees between the drive shaft and pinion.
Furthermore, the two angles should be nearly equal (between 1 and 3
degrees), but always opposite (see crude diagram)."
The angle is extremely exaggerated in this pic. This is just showing
that it should be 2 degrees on both ends. Or 1 and 1 or 3 and 3.
Whatever is the best..
http://carcraft.com/howto/p176536_image_large.jpg
Summary:
"the greater the pinion angle, the more horsepower the drive line will consume,"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Elcon (www.zivanusa.com) I know has some sort of curve for the 30XHS which I've
been told is exactly the same internally as the SCS225 but with different
posts. I have the "updated curve" for the Zivan charger in my GEM from them.
Apparently they didn't program in enough of a finishing current originally to
charge them fully. It's massively torn apart at the moment and probably won't
be back together for a week or so, but when it is if I can derive some sort of
curve from it I'd be glad to help. So bug me for some numbers in about a week.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I was affraid that that's what you wanted.
I don't think such curves exist, at least not the three to four
demensional curves you mention.
The SCS225 can provide perhaps 100 deep discharges (80% DOD) before
wearing out. Through most of those discharges the capacity will be slowly
dropping due to age. So perhaps you could get 10 discharges per battery
that are useful for developing a curve.
Since each battery performs slightly differently, you would need to test
many batteries and average the results.
You'd have to perform numerous tests at different discharge currents and
different temperatures, etc.
They'd use up hundreds, possibly thousands of batteries. In the end
they'd spend thousands of dollars and end up with a set of curves that
most of their customers could care less about.
So they test the batteries at two or three different discharge levels and
a single controlled temperature. Customers who want to know how the
batteries will perform at a different discharge level can estimate it
using Peukert's formula, or test them themselves.
FWIW some of the AGM and Gel Cell battery manufacturers published curves
on their batteries. Hawker and Deka come to mind. These are the types of
batteries typically used in UPS systems and these customers are extreemly
interested in how the batteries will perform at different discharge
levels.
Here is some info, including curves, on the Genesis batteries, if that's
of any use to you:
http://www.enersysreservepower.com/documents/US_GPL_SG_001_0303.pdf
Cheers, Pete.
> Hi Peter,
>
> I am looking for volts, capacity, and current draw capabilities at various
> DOD and hopefully against temperture as well
>
> The battery i am interested in is the SCS225 Trojan, 12v deep cycle and
> also
> the 8 volt golf car b att, rated at 150Ah, sorry i can't remember the
> model
> number.
>
>
> Cheers
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The green "ground" cable is probably a bit redudant really if the unit's
mounted to metal on the vehicle. The case of the IOTA is grounded aunyways and
there is a screw pin on the caseing of the unit to connect it to ground if it's
not mounted to metal. The ground connection would be a saftey for connecting
the vehicle chasis to earth ground in case you were using it for charging a 12
volt battery from AC power.
Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Ricky and Everyone,
>That's kind of what I was thinking too, but at this point I'm just going to
>try it and see what happens. Worst case scenario I can have one in a couple
>days. To my understanding they had a 220 vac IOTA in Gone Postal with ~300
>volts going to it and working fine.
>
>BTW, do the 120 volt versions come with a power cord? The 220's don't and the
>only power cord with that connector on the end I could find was 18 ga wire so
>I'm thinking that's a little bit too small.
>
>
>
Yes, the 120V unit comes with a power cord. I cut it and used some
connectors to hook it to my pack. Black to pack positive, white to pack
ground. I left the green unconnected. Maybe someone will chime in
suggesting this is a no-no. It's worked good for about 9 months now.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
---------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
> Much less has appeared here about the Russco, even though I'm pretty sure
> it's been around about as long. Russ Kauffman regrettably seldom
> contributes to this list, and doesn't maintain a website, so he and his
> chargers aren't usually "top of mind."
I'm just curious, but where are these chargers made at anyways? Are
these ALL of the models that are available?
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/charger.shtml
>Russ is a real EV electronics
> veteran, having designed a fairly well-regarded (if not particularly widely
> available) motor controller in the 1980s and a liquid-coolant cabin heater in
> the 1990s.
What happened to the controller? Was it not scalable in the sense
that it's inputs/outputs could be increased to today's levels and
expectations?
> Note that neither Rich's nor Russ's chargers are isolated from the power line.
Last I heard, Rich was working on an isolated model(haven't heard
anything about it, or the water cooled model, or the 75kw model in a
while though. I imagine he's really been busy as of late though..)
I know we went over this once before, but time has passed and it's no
longer clear to me(I've read that stress effects short term memory..).
Scenario:
I have the wall and the car and the charger is installed in the car.
I plug the charger into the wall and now the car is connected to the
power grid. What would the difference be between an isolated charger
and a non isolated charger? Because in my mind right now, I don't see
how either would be any different.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would use it as an opportunity to establish two fully
redundant drive systems. That way if you have a breakdown
in one, you can still limp off the freeway. Plus you
shorten linkages etc.
According to jerry dycus,
> Hi Stu and All,
>
> Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Would 2 golf cart motors be viable as an alternative to a single large motor
> to power a 1,500 pound vehicle at 45 mph?
>
>
> Yes if you don't expect fast acceleration and gear them correctly.
> I use a 3.5hp GEGC motor that came from a Citi-car that powers my E woody
> fairly well at those speeds. So 2- 2.2hp GC in series/parallel will do you
> alright. I'm using 2 ES22 D+D motors which are basicly A-89's, larger GC
> motors.
>
>
> If so, how would you connect them mechanically to drive a chain sprocket?
>
> I like face to face unless they are double shaft though as probably
> 98% of them are timed neutural it doesn't matter which way you turn them. I'd
> use a common sprocket to connect them.
>
>
> How would you control them and electrically connect them?
>
> The same way any other is though you have an option of
> series/paralleling them for more starting torque, another speed if you go for
> a contactor controller. Reverse can be tricky with S/P wiring.
> HTH's,
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
--
Best Regards,
Tony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Otmar has been getting a lot of orders lately. I waited about 2 months
in I think May when his first batch of machined pieces came back from the
fabrication shop not to specs and then he had to wait for them again to fix the
problem and I think he found a different place to make them. All in all I think
it will be worth the wait (my EV's going to run very soon). Above anything I
know the controller itself is great, but the Hair Ball is what is the real deal
maker because it gives you such a nice little interface to hook everything to.
And FYI, I think Otmar is like me and replies to emails a lot quicker than
phone messages (note his quick reply here). He always answers emails generally
within hours.
Cwarman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Is it true there is like a 2 months backorder or wait time for the 1k
Zilla Controllers ? WOW! There has to be somewhere that has them in
stock now...
Evsource hasnt returned my calls at all, has anyone dealt with these guys ?
CWarman
Later,
Ricky
02 Red Insight #559
92 Saturn SC2 EV conversion in progress
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The third pin is primarily to short out faults before you get
electrocuted. If the hot shorts to the frame through a failed insulator
or whatever, it will pop the breaker before you walk up, pull the handle
and find there's 120v on it.
Danny
Ricky Suiter wrote:
The green "ground" cable is probably a bit redudant really if the unit's mounted to metal on the vehicle. The case of the IOTA is grounded aunyways and there is a screw pin on the caseing of the unit to connect it to ground if it's not mounted to metal. The ground connection would be a saftey for connecting the vehicle chasis to earth ground in case you were using it for charging a 12 volt battery from AC power.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If they are like mine, get a squirt bottle for distilled water and some
sharp 10-32 taps.
Seth
On Aug 22, 2005, at 2:29 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:
I'm putting together a string of 100 right now. Currently I'm in the
process of talking them out of their packages and cleaning the
terminals,
and am building the battery box. I should be to the point of charging
them
for the first time in a few weeks. I'll keep you posted. Also, you
might
want to join the BB600 board run by John Lussmyer.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 11:05 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Who's Using Marathon NiCads?
Is anyone here using the Marathon NiCad cells? If so, hows it going?
-Sam
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I maintain, electrically it makes absolutely no difference.
If you let the dirt and moisture in and keep dropping wrenches
on your pack, this is different (user care) issue.
Space the + and - as far appart as you can then, but I'm not sure
how much this will really help. Perhaps some.
Victor
Seth Allen wrote:
That hasn't been my experience. Where I last worked we put them far
apart. One reason is that normal contamination (dirt, salts moisture)
can cause current to flow across the plastic covers. Keeping full pack
potential more than a long wrench length apart is a very good reason,
also. Not to mention how far an arc will travel once it is started.
Seth
On Aug 22, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Provided you have enough distance so it won't arc over (I assume
this is the case), it makes no difference.
Bill Dennis wrote:
This leads me to a second, related question. I've been designing my
battery
boxes so that the + and - cables connect at opposite ends of the box, in
order to avoid having two cells next to each other that were at far
different voltages. Does that make sense, or should the + and -
cables exit
the box on adjacent cells so that they're close to each other? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It is difficult to vent a battery box (needed even for AGMs) and not
get these sort of contaminants on the pack as air moves by. Just
passing on what others have learned, sometimes the hard way.
On Aug 22, 2005, at 9:14 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
I maintain, electrically it makes absolutely no difference.
If you let the dirt and moisture in and keep dropping wrenches
on your pack, this is different (user care) issue.
Space the + and - as far appart as you can then, but I'm not sure
how much this will really help. Perhaps some.
Victor
Seth Allen wrote:
That hasn't been my experience. Where I last worked we put them far
apart. One reason is that normal contamination (dirt, salts moisture)
can cause current to flow across the plastic covers. Keeping full
pack potential more than a long wrench length apart is a very good
reason, also. Not to mention how far an arc will travel once it is
started.
Seth
On Aug 22, 2005, at 7:43 PM, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Provided you have enough distance so it won't arc over (I assume
this is the case), it makes no difference.
Bill Dennis wrote:
This leads me to a second, related question. I've been designing
my battery
boxes so that the + and - cables connect at opposite ends of the
box, in
order to avoid having two cells next to each other that were at far
different voltages. Does that make sense, or should the + and -
cables exit
the box on adjacent cells so that they're close to each other?
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thing. Where I worked last, the + and - were on opposite
sides of the battery box. But + and - were bundled together when they
ran any distance. generally at least dual insulated to the chassis
(wire insulation, and orange loom for each conductor). They did this
at least partly from experience...
Seth
On Aug 22, 2005, at 6:54 PM, Bill Dennis wrote:
This leads me to a second, related question. I've been designing my
battery
boxes so that the + and - cables connect at opposite ends of the box,
in
order to avoid having two cells next to each other that were at far
different voltages. Does that make sense, or should the + and -
cables exit
the box on adjacent cells so that they're close to each other? Thanks.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2005 2:58 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Plus and Minus Together
If you run the power cables on opposite sides of the car it creates a
large electromagnet. Thus, when driving down the road you will be
picking
up man hole covers. That really hurts the performance. Think of all
the
added weight you're picking up. Keep them close together.
John :)
-----------------------------------------------------
<snip> <snip>
. Anytime power wires carrying the same current
in
opposite directions are not in close proximity, they form a loop. A
loop is very much like an antenna and it transmits unwanted
electrical
noise.
Signal wires should also be run in sets. It is best to keep all the
wires for a given circuit in a tight bundle."
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--- Begin Message ---
I don't own an e-meter so can't tell what people like or dislike
about it. I know it has RS232 isolation issues, and that's all I
know.
Can owners tell me what they don't like about their e-meter,
how you'd rather seeit designed or operated?
Which features are lacking and which you consider redundant?
I'm working on an alternative to an e-meter and am at the
point where I can implement changes most frequently requested.
Basically, could you create a short wish list what do you
want such a gadget to do. Don't let current design bias you -
alternative can but doesn't have to be similar.
Thanks all in advance,
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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At 06:00 PM 8/22/2005, Ryan Stotts wrote:
I have the wall and the car and the charger is installed in the car.
I plug the charger into the wall and now the car is connected to the
power grid. What would the difference be between an isolated charger
and a non isolated charger? Because in my mind right now, I don't see
how either would be any different.
Well, if your Pack is tied to the Car Body, you have a problem.
But since sane people do NOT do that, it's not nearly as severed. A
PFC-20 mounted in the car (to the body) will have the AC Ground line
connected to the body.
There IS a connection from a HOT AC line to one end of the pack, but
since your pack isn't connected to the body, it's relatively safe.
It's a nice idea to use a GFCI outlet, which will trigger to show you
when you are getting too much leakage current from your pack....
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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At 06:25 PM 8/22/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Can owners tell me what they don't like about their e-meter,
how you'd rather seeit designed or operated?
Which features are lacking and which you consider redundant?
Be able to see Volts and Amps simultaneously.
Update display more than 1/sec.
Warn buzzer for low voltage.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
John G. Lussmyer wrote:
At 06:25 PM 8/22/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Can owners tell me what they don't like about their e-meter,
how you'd rather seeit designed or operated?
Which features are lacking and which you consider redundant?
Be able to see Volts and Amps simultaneously.
Update display more than 1/sec.
Warn buzzer for low voltage.
Thanks John!
Does all the above already, so you're covered :-)
Sorry, I don't want to tell yet what else it does
not to bias future opinions for the wish list.
So, anyone else?
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
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John G. Lussmyer wrote:
> Well, if your Pack is tied to the Car Body, you have a problem.
My pack and my 12 volt system will not be using the car body as ground.
> A PFC-20 mounted in the car (to the body) will have the AC Ground line
> connected to the body.
Why? I don't want to ground the charger to the body. I want to keep
it "isolated". I want it to be a "floating ground"(is that the correct
term?).
> It's a nice idea to use a GFCI outlet, which will trigger to show you
> when you are getting too much leakage current from your pack....
How is a GFCI outlet different from the breaker in the fuse panel? I
want to get a 50 amp or greater 220 line installed in the garage for
the EV charger.
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--- Begin Message ---
Victor wrote:
> Can owners tell me what they don't like about their e-meter,
> how you'd rather see it designed or operated?
I don't own one yet either, but from all I've read about it, it seems
like a finicky, fickle, delicate device. It's also some what
expensive. Just how accurate is it anyways?
I want one that is robust and low cost.
Basically, it just needs to work properly and not get zapped if I
don't install it or remove it using the right wire sequence. I charge
up the pack and the e meter says its full. I drive around and it
accurately tells me how much charge I have left in the pack.
With the Link 10, it seems like that's not always the case? Doubts
about if the pack is *really* fully charged or not(due to the meter's
various settings).
So I set the Link 10 to what size pack I have, and it measures power
in, and power out?
Seems simple enough...
There seems to be one major deficiency it can't deal with though..
Something about if the pack is only partly discharged and it gets
recharged and the meter needing to be reset manually? Or is it
something else? Anyone know? It's some situation that causes the
Link 10 to need to be manually reset because of said event.
Pick one up Victor and get some first hand experience with one before
your new one causes the Link 10 to be obsolete. Make yours correct
all the shortcomings the Link 10 currently has.
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=434
If I had $200 - $300 extra dollars, I would personally buy one for you.
Maybe someone who is sympathetic will sell you one at cost?
"If you need it, we can build it."
http://www.westach.com/custom.htm
http://www.westach.com/
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>>Be able to see Volts and Amps simultaneously.
EVdash already does this via the Emeter RS-232 comm
link.
So here's my recommendation.
Use a low cost 'interface' black box that will send
info to a low cost device such as the Palm or Windoze
CE device that everybody can purchase for a low cost.
Anybody can write their own app to display what they
want and share or sell this app at a low cost.
The key here is to use a readily avialable electronic
gadget such as a Palm Pilot as the interface device.
The 'black box' only serves as an isolation device and
something that will read data from shunts or other
devices and spit out the comm data.
Rod
--- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 06:25 PM 8/22/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> >Can owners tell me what they don't like about their
> e-meter,
> >how you'd rather seeit designed or operated?
> >
> >Which features are lacking and which you consider
> redundant?
>
> Be able to see Volts and Amps simultaneously.
> Update display more than 1/sec.
> Warn buzzer for low voltage.
>
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
A 500W DC-DC like a Vicor is under $300.
Lee or someone would know if you can run a Curtis that way, but I
suspect it would work. You might need/want an output filter. If not
Curtis, then one of a zillion other controllers might do like a 4QD (I
think that is it...)
Could you tap the pack and put solar panels on the tapped half? Not
perfect, but flooded nicads might take that sort of abuse better?
Seth
On Aug 22, 2005, at 8:38 PM, Chris Zach wrote:
Ok, a question:
My Elec-trak is now powered by 30 40ah NiCDs. Which is great, however
running taps on the pack is a bad idea. I have a number of 18 volt
appliances that I want to run off the tractor power supply.
The question is how do I step 36 volts down to 18 volts DC? I could go
with a DC-DC converter, but I need something that can peak at around
20-40 amps at 18 volts. I could go with a 36 volt motor turning an 18
volt motor; that's one possibility.
Could I just use a Curtis controller somehow?
Chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts said:
> John G. Lussmyer wrote:
>
>> Well, if your Pack is tied to the Car Body, you have a problem.
>
> My pack and my 12 volt system will not be using the car body as ground.
>
>> A PFC-20 mounted in the car (to the body) will have the AC Ground line
>> connected to the body.
>
> Why? I don't want to ground the charger to the body. I want to keep
> it "isolated". I want it to be a "floating ground"(is that the correct
> term?).
Imagine standing on your garage floor in your bare feet. Now imagine
touching your car. Doing this safely implies that there is no significant
potential difference between the body of the car and the floor. The floor
is at earth ground -- zero volts. By grounding the body of your car, you
can be assured that it is also zero volts. Although you are not
intentionally connecting your pack to the car, it's possible for
electrolyte, contaminants or other foreign matter to bridge the gap.
Without grounding the body, your car could creep up to a dangerous voltage
with respect to ground, and you'd only know it when you reach for the door
and get shocked.
>
>
>> It's a nice idea to use a GFCI outlet, which will trigger to show you
>> when you are getting too much leakage current from your pack....
>
> How is a GFCI outlet different from the breaker in the fuse panel? I
> want to get a 50 amp or greater 220 line installed in the garage for
> the EV charger.
A breaker trips due to current high enough to risk damaging the wires
providing power to the outlet and burning your house down. For a 50A
outlet, this is 50A. Milliamps kill; this is way too high to protect you.
I believe GFCI breakers trip in response to an unequal current between hot
and neutral, which means some is leaking to ground (possibly through you).
They are MUCH more sensitive, with the idea of preventing electrocution,
not protecting wiring.
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
Another thought.
The Zilla will already talk to a Palm device.
Philippe and Steven are looking into an interface for
the Alltrax.
Provide another input to your black box to isolate
this data source and a means to either multiplex the
data or provide a mechanical or electrical switch to
choose your source.
Since the controllers already have motor loop sensors
installed, this could provide a real time motor
current display and a battery shunt could provide
battery current.
This is assuming Otmar would provide the output data
real time.
You could also link in serial data from your Siemens
drives.
Since Palm Development systems can be obtained by
anybody, writing the software for this device would be
somewhat 'open source'.
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>Be able to see Volts and Amps simultaneously.
> EVdash already does this via the Emeter RS-232 comm
> link.
> So here's my recommendation.
> Use a low cost 'interface' black box that will send
> info to a low cost device such as the Palm or
> Windoze
> CE device that everybody can purchase for a low
> cost.
> Anybody can write their own app to display what they
> want and share or sell this app at a low cost.
> The key here is to use a readily avialable
> electronic
> gadget such as a Palm Pilot as the interface device.
> The 'black box' only serves as an isolation device
> and
> something that will read data from shunts or other
> devices and spit out the comm data.
> Rod
> --- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
>
> > At 06:25 PM 8/22/2005, Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> > >Can owners tell me what they don't like about
> their
> > e-meter,
> > >how you'd rather seeit designed or operated?
> > >
> > >Which features are lacking and which you consider
> > redundant?
> >
> > Be able to see Volts and Amps simultaneously.
> > Update display more than 1/sec.
> > Warn buzzer for low voltage.
> >
> > --
> > John G. Lussmyer
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> > http://www.CasaDelGato.com
> >
> >
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
the "pig tail" for?)
> >
> > That is the (connection to the) BMS.
>
> If I have 36 of those batteries, what am I going to
> plug all those
> connectors into?
9 BMS units as each one is good for only 4 "batts"
I will try to clear out al the junk in my kiddie
carrier and get a picture of my 4 batt set up
keith
>
>
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