EV Digest 4638
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re:Now Boats-Ready made motor&controller&batterypack&charger...
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: adapter plate business...
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: adapter plate business...
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: adapter plate business...
by "Dennis Merritt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: adapter plate business...
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: adapter plate business...
by "Dennis Merritt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: adapter plate business...
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 2000 mile range EV?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 75mpg Hybrid you can build.
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: adapter plate business...
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Zilla DAQ 4 mode questions or how to graph a race?
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Brush Advance
by "Mark Thomasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Loud Lester charger?
by "Rick Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Loud Lester charger?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: e-meter type gadget wish list wanted
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: adapter plate business...
by Tony Godshall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Loud Lester charger?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: SAMS CLUB GC2 STOWAWAY GOLF CART BATTERY
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: adapter plate business...
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Brush Advance
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Systems that work like this are off-the-shelf and ready to go-
http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/00.shtml
Or build your own with a permanent magnet motor like the Etek-
http://cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1321118&PRID=1114811
And a Sevcon MilliPak or equivalent controller-
http://cloudelectric.com/item.jhtml?UCIDs=866086%7C1321279&PRID=1368948
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Sail boats have tremendous horsepower available. Why not put a small hydro
generator in the water to generate some electricity for the towed boat..
Wouldn't need to be very big. Hydro is much more powerful in generation
than wind. On a crusier the drag probably wouldn't be noticed.
LR..........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 6:59 AM
Subject: Re:Now Boats-Ready made motor&controller&batterypack&charger...
> So I know that the power needed to get up on the plane
> in a boat is quite large, but then tapers off once
> up... is there any formulas for figuring this?
>
> I have a sail boat and want to use an electric to get
> out to it when at anchor... I already have solar
> recharge on the sailboat for running lights and such,
> but was thinking, a little electric speed boat that
> could be towed for recharge behind the sailboat would
> be an efficient way to do things... not to mention the
> quick, cheap trip down the river to the boat at
> anchor!
>
> By the way ... thanks for all the responses! it's nice
> to see I'm not alone in thinking this could be a
> usefull system.
>
> Tom
> -----snip-----
> Hi Lawrence and All,
>
> Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 24 Volts the new motor provides a maximum speed of
> 6 miles per hour. We are happy with this speed. (It is
> more than needed for trolling, but a comfortable speed
> for just touring the shoreline in the evening)
>
> Sounds like a great way to go and an especially good
> way to go solar boating as you ned only a small solar
> panel set if you are only going out once a week which
> is normal. And great pick of a boat as pontoons use
> very little power vs monohulls that if over hull
> speed, suck it in hugh quanities.
>
> You might consider the waterline length speed when
> under power. Depending
>
> This is really only a factor in monohulls
> and pontoons, cats that have wide, deep sterns. They
> usually if done correctly not have the bow wave
> barrier to higher speeds as they are so narrow if 8-1
> beam to length /hull ratio. In a monohull you are
> very correct and should keep you speed to the sq root
> of
> the waterline length which if 25', would be 5 mph.
> Above that energy needed goes straight up!! So ge a
> pontoon, cat if you want to go fast at all though is
> want a cool slow cruiser that can carry a lot of
> weight, a low drag monohull of the sailboat, power
> launch, displacement hull type is a good way to go.
>
> on the length of your pontoon boat you could use an
> ammeter to find the most efficient speed for crusing.
> (I am assuming you don't need to get up on a
>
> Cats and pontoon should not get on plane as they can
> cut though the water are lower energy use without it.
>
> plane.) Just a fraction of a knot faster than your
> length speed and we're talking a lot more power
> wasted. It could mean the difference of going
>
> That's exactly what a reg monohull will do making bow
> waves instead of speed so slowing a little in them
> will save a large amount of power.
>
> HTH's,
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A lifetime's experiene has taught me over and over that whatever I do
for or to others comes back to me in spades. Therefore I'd give the
second guy the data. Of course, I'd note what it cost me and make it
apparent that donations would be accepted :-)
The other reason I'd give the data away is that I realize that very
little of what any of us does is wholly original work. We all build
on the prior works of others, most of this info having been freely
given to us. Therefore I see it as only fair to give back.
John
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:42:59 -0700, Victor Tikhonov
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
>(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
>
>Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
>reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
>so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
>
>Should guy A give the data for free?
>Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
>
>What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
>
>Thanks,
>Victor
>
>(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You ask for 50 % of cost or $150.00, which would be Guy B share of the cost.
Now if you have a Guy C, then it would be $100.00 or equal shares betweens
Guys A to Z, that is if your not in that business.
If you are in a business where you are going to subcontract out some work, than
you recover your cost, labor, overhead, taxes and etc.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Tikhonov<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: adapter plate business...
Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
Should guy A give the data for free?
Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
Thanks,
Victor
(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John speaks the truth... In my opinion... Give the guy a break.. Evs
are expensive enuff without someone giving others breaks..
REVgards,
Dennis Merritt
Sacramento
1990 Zzipper "WB6UHQ1"
1989 Solar Electric Escort "ELKTRIK"
1969 VW "VOLTWGN"
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 5:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
A lifetime's experiene has taught me over and over that whatever I do for or
to others comes back to me in spades. Therefore I'd give the second guy the
data. Of course, I'd note what it cost me and make it apparent that
donations would be accepted :-)
The other reason I'd give the data away is that I realize that very little
of what any of us does is wholly original work. We all build on the prior
works of others, most of this info having been freely given to us.
Therefore I see it as only fair to give back.
John
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:42:59 -0700, Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
>(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
>
>Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to reinvent a
>wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data, so he can fabricate
>his own plate as well.
>
>Should guy A give the data for free?
>Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
>
>What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
>
>Thanks,
>Victor
>
>(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree with John here. I think it's Person A's prerogative to either
give or sell the information, but if it were me I'd expect no payment for
it.
I think there should be a community website providing a database of
measurements for transmissions of all kinds. We'd need an agreed-upon
standard for accuracy (say, .001" or .01mm), maybe a common format for
submission, definitely a common format for storage and display. Each entry
would include details on what machinist performed the measurement, maybe
something indicating the type of equipment used, and who paid for the
work.
I'd be happy to put such a site together on my server or discuss the
possibilities, if anyone else feels like I do about it.
--chris
Neon John said:
> A lifetime's experiene has taught me over and over that whatever I do
> for or to others comes back to me in spades. Therefore I'd give the
> second guy the data. Of course, I'd note what it cost me and make it
> apparent that donations would be accepted :-)
>
> The other reason I'd give the data away is that I realize that very
> little of what any of us does is wholly original work. We all build
> on the prior works of others, most of this info having been freely
> given to us. Therefore I see it as only fair to give back.
>
> John
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:42:59 -0700, Victor Tikhonov
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
>>(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
>>
>>Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
>>reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
>>so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
>>
>>Should guy A give the data for free?
>>Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
>>
>>What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Victor
>>
>>(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
>>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Opppss... Another point to consider, patents etc..... If it was a hobby
built item, then I would say share.. But if it's a professional job,
probably aught not share at all.
REVgards,
Dennis Merritt
Sacramento
1990 Zzipper "WB6UHQ1"
1989 Solar Electric Escort "ELKTRIK"
1969 VW "VOLTWGN"
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Roland Wiench
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 5:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
You ask for 50 % of cost or $150.00, which would be Guy B share of the cost.
Now if you have a Guy C, then it would be $100.00 or equal shares betweens
Guys A to Z, that is if your not in that business.
If you are in a business where you are going to subcontract out some work,
than you recover your cost, labor, overhead, taxes and etc.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Victor Tikhonov<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 5:42 PM
Subject: adapter plate business...
Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
Should guy A give the data for free?
Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
Thanks,
Victor
(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you asked the auto manufacturer, could you get the dimensions?
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Robison
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 6:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: adapter plate business...
I agree with John here. I think it's Person A's prerogative to either give
or sell the information, but if it were me I'd expect no payment for it.
I think there should be a community website providing a database of
measurements for transmissions of all kinds. We'd need an agreed-upon
standard for accuracy (say, .001" or .01mm), maybe a common format for
submission, definitely a common format for storage and display. Each entry
would include details on what machinist performed the measurement, maybe
something indicating the type of equipment used, and who paid for the work.
I'd be happy to put such a site together on my server or discuss the
possibilities, if anyone else feels like I do about it.
--chris
Neon John said:
> A lifetime's experiene has taught me over and over that whatever I do
> for or to others comes back to me in spades. Therefore I'd give the
> second guy the data. Of course, I'd note what it cost me and make it
> apparent that donations would be accepted :-)
>
> The other reason I'd give the data away is that I realize that very
> little of what any of us does is wholly original work. We all build
> on the prior works of others, most of this info having been freely
> given to us. Therefore I see it as only fair to give back.
>
> John
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:42:59 -0700, Victor Tikhonov
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
>>(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
>>
>>Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to reinvent
>>a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data, so he can fabricate
>>his own plate as well.
>>
>>Should guy A give the data for free?
>>Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
>>
>>What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Victor
>>
>>(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
>>
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I emailed them. LR>...............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave Cover" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 12:13 PM
Subject: Re: 2000 mile range EV?
Did anyone notice that their schedule is a little dated? The time line
runs from November 2003 through Autumn 2004 when they were supposed to do
their single charge cross country trip. Anyone know how they did?
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the follow-up article...
http://www.motherearthnews.com/top_articles/1980_September_October/Mother_s_Own_Hybrid_Car_
Danny Miller wrote:
Anybody know the drag coefficient and rolling drag of that Opel? We
could calculate just how fast 5 hp would take you... in reality only a
portion of that hp will not make it to the wheels in such a setup either.
Not only does it brag of 75 mph, inside the article it mentions a 90
mph top speed. My question is, just how steep of a hill was it going
down at the time?
Danny
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Larence,
That vehicle has been debunked numerous times. I believe even Mother
Earth printed a statement indicating that they could NOT duplicate the
authors claims.
The controller doesn't work as described, and a 5hp lawnmower engine
isn't
anywhere near big enough to power that vehicle at highway speeds.
I doubt it could go 75 miles (at highway speeds) on a gallon of gas an a
full battery pack.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's not about me, so I can't "give someone a break".
It's about two guys (I don't know friends or not, I
don't know them, and they are not on the list)
wanting to do simialr cars and needing the dimensions.
So one is quietly waiting for another to get it (and 100%
pay for it) to have a free ride. I suspect the first one
does not realize that and will be paying "for himself"
since he needs it anyway (only to be approached later...)
According to most of responses, the first one must pay it
all and "give second one a break" since EVs are already
expensive enough".
But somehow this still doesn't seem fair.
I'm no judge, and can't suggest anything, just heard
the story I wanted to pass on.
Dennis Merritt wrote:
Neon John speaks the truth... In my opinion... Give the guy a break.. Evs
are expensive enuff without someone giving others breaks..
REVgards,
Dennis Merritt
Sacramento
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mark,
> I'm trying to hack together a "quick and dirty" race performance
> graphing app for Woodburn. I've got a 10oz embedded computer that
> gathers data from a hairball and a 3 axis accelerometer and
> then tries to present that information in some useful format post race
> via a built in webserver (ok, its overkill, but I had all the stuff handy)
I wrote up something similar, and hit Otmar up for the DAQ4 details already. I
doubt Otmar will mind me jumping in here...
> (If someone can supply me with about 20 seconds of DAQ4 output taken
> from a working car accelerating away from a stoplight that would be very
> helpful. Just do a capture to a text file and mail it to me.)
I have this already, but can't find them. If you give me a day or two I'll
find/redo one for you.
In any case, here's what I've got FWIW:
> DrivePot: Seems obvious, I expect its either the raw ADC data
> from the throttle pot, or maybe a 0-100% value.
There is some offset at 0% (x42 iirc), and then about 1.5 bits per %. Easy to
work out if you've got a working hairball.
> Speed1: I think in this context Speed is motor rpm, since the
> Zilla has only one vehicle speed input and there is Speed1,
> and Speed2 values in other DAQ output.
RPM for Motor 1 (the Hairball has two motor speed inputs). 1 bit per 100 RPM.
> ArmatureCurrent: Motor loop current? Seems kinda odd to
> label it Armature.
5 Amps/bit for Z1K. 10 Amps/bit for Z2K.
> ZCurrentLimit: I expect this is normally a static (and uninteresting)
> value but it may drop as heat sink temp increases.
Correct. As above.
> ArmDC: no idea
Armature Duty Cycle. I think the 0-100% range is represented by 0 - 252 (ie.
x00 - xfc).
> BatteryVoltage: obvious
> MotorVoltage: obvious
1.75390625 volts / bit.
> HeatSinkTemp: obvious, but would this be interesting enough
> to plot on the final graph?
Otmar has this as a lookup iirc, but I believe it works out to be:
Temp (degC) = DAQ value * 0.575757... - 1.3
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob, Thanks for the reply. So, the correct answer seems to be: To advance
the brushes, rotate them in the direction of rotor rotation. As someone
mentioned several months ago, this is the opposite of what you would think
based on advancing the timing on ICE's.
Wow, 34 degrees you say! I tried 10.7 (recommended by that Madman guy)
degrees to reduce the dramatic arcing I was getting when I bypassed my
series field to get a speed boost, but I'm still gettng some arcing. I
guess I just didn't go far enough. I'm drilling and tapping my own holes,
so I can set it anywhere I want. Thanks again. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: Brush Advance
Mark, it was a long time ago when I did this
operation, but here's what I remember:
With Honda, you need to advance the brushes in the
clockwise direction, and make certain your A1 is
connected to S2, as the Honda driveshafts rotate
opposite of most all other vehicles on the road
through at least 1995. To do this, go to the
commutator end of the motor, and push the brush
springs behind the little retainer bars that were made
for this purpose. Next, remove the (4) 1/4" x 20
screws holding the casting on. Nudge the housing back
about 1 cm. You should be able to turn the casting 34
degrees clockwise. Back out the allen screws sitting
in the holes. (Sometimes they're located pretty
deep). You can now put the allen screws in the
counterclockwise settings (the retard position).
I hope that wasn't a "Microsoft answer" (technically
correct, but not helpful to the issue you're
addressing)...
(;-p
peace,
--- Mark Thomasson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
When advancing the brushes on DC motors, do the
brushes move in the
direction of motor rotation or against rotation?
Thanks, Mark T
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
____________________________________________________
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My Lester charger used to make a lot of noise. I even tried tapping in wood
shims between the coil and the transformer core. I had complaints from Rich
Rudman at Woodburn 2003, about "noise pollution". My Lester does not make
noise any more. See photo (can you recognize it?)
http://home.comcast.net/~barnes.rick/Fire/Fire8.jpg
Now I have a PCF50....
Rick Barnes
Aloha, OR
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 4:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Loud Lester charger?
Good advice.
If the transformer itself is vibrating loudly and you don't mind the work of
removing it from the charger, take it to an electric motor repair shop and
have it "dipped and baked" in winding varnish. This will almost completely
stop all vibrations, as it locks the laminations and windings in place.
There will still be a little magnetostrictive hum but it won't be bad.
This is a standard treatment that I do to all constant voltage and "leakage
flux" transformers that I use in my shop. I can't stand that buzz.
I would not expect to pay more than $50 for the service, especially if you
can wait until they have some other jobs to run through the dip tank and
oven and can piggyback your transformer on the runs.
John
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:16:44 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>> Is it normal for a Lestronic I 120vdc/12vdc Model 9776 charger to be
>> so loud?
>
>They use a constant-voltage transformer. This type of transformer
>drives the iron core into saturation, so the magnetic forces on it are
>larger. There is also a deliberate air gap in the core; the large
>magnetic force in the core is trying to close that air gap (at the
>peaks of the AC line), and releasing its pull (at the zero crossings)
>120 times per second. This makes a noticeable "brrrr" noise.
>
>This noise is normally only 2-3 times louder than a conventional
>transformer of the same power, which isn't bad at all. However, the
>transformer's vibration can cause other parts to vibrate
>sympathetically. For instance, two pieces of the metal case vibrate
>against each other, producing a loud buzz. Or the transformer itself
>can have loose mounting screws or loose laminations or windings. This
>is what usually makes the racket associated with such transformers.
>
>Try picking up a corner of the case, or tipping it on various sides. If
>the noise changes, look for loose screws or bent metal pieces. Check
>the transformer mounting screws to be sure they are tight. Press on the
>windings with a wooden stick and see if they move, or the sound
>changes. Transformers are supposed to be dipped in varnish to "glue
>together" all their parts to avoid vibration, but they might have done
>a careless job.
>--
>*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
> -- Mahatma Gandhi
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I pushed every part/transformer/whatever with a stick and not much
difference. There must be a component blown out. The charger works but
instead of keeping the amps up at the end of charge it tapers to 0vdc while
the 12v charger stays at around 4 amps. I like Lee's diagnosis. Lawrence
Rhodes..
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 1:05 PM
Subject: Re: Loud Lester charger?
On 8/29/05, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Is it normal for a Lestronic I 120vdc/12vdc Model 9776 charger to
> be so loud?
This noise is normally only 2-3 times louder than a conventional
transformer of the same power, which isn't bad at all. However, the
transformer's vibration can cause other parts to vibrate
sympathetically. For instance, two pieces of the metal case vibrate
against each other, producing a loud buzz. Or the transformer itself can
have loose mounting screws or loose laminations or windings. This is
what usually makes the racket associated with such transformers.
One other thing, check what the charger is bolted to. If it's the
rear bulkhead of the truck cab for example, this could be acting as a
big speaker, turning the vibrations into sound. We sometimes have
that problem with solar inverters in people's lofts.
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--- Begin Message ---
Tony Godshall wrote:
>> RS-485... Simplest multidrop I could think of.
>> A standardized protocol can be layered ontop of it.
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> It is not robust enough for noisy automotive environment.
Victor, the CANbus twisted pair as used in production automobiles is a
*reduced* noise immunity version of RS-485. RS-485 uses symmetric bus
drivers that pull both high and low; so it is fully differential and has
the same impedance in both states. CANbus went to single-ended drivers
with one active and one passive state to save cost.
The advertised "high noise immunity" of automotive CANbus is done in
software; by having more error checking and resending of damaged data.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Jeff Shanab wrote:
> As we start to make these wonderful products for EV's maybe we should
> start considering some basic design philosophies.
I heartily agree! And, I think we are. That's what these
discussions/argumnts are about.
> 1. Seperate Interface from function.
> 2. Adhere to a standard.
> For #1, the design should have 2 parts that communicate across a bus.
> The dash display and the data collection module.
If all you're doing is splitting an E-meter type device in half, all you
need are wires between them. It doesn't have to be a bus, since nothing
else ever ties to them.
A bus is only necessary if the product is not self-contained. An E-meter
doesn't need a bus. A charger doesn't need a bus. A controller doesn't
need a bus. They don't need to communicate with each other.
But, we can enhance functionality if they did communicate. For instance,
a charger can ask an E-meter how many amphours were removed, so it can
do a better job charging. The controller can find out if there's a low
battery, and cut back to avoid harming it.
> If chargers, controllers, BMS sytems, GPS, Media players can all
> use this bus, then redundent wiring is reduced.
Maybe; done badly, it would *add* extra wiring and create new problems
(higher cost, harder to fix, weird interactions and problems).
> I know #2 is a very controversal item but it will be very difficult
> if not impossible to enforce the implementation later.
It's very difficult if not impossible to establish now! :-)
A "bus" is only used when more than one device needs to tie into the
same signals. So there is no need for a bus in most EV devices.
A "standard" bus is only used when more than one COMPANY is going to
build devices to tie into that bus. Most companies oppose standard
buses, seeing them as limiting their sales and helping competitors. So
they only use standard buses when dragged into it, kicking and
screaming.
To get EV suppliers to use some standard bus, you have to find a way to
force them into it. There will have to be some device, not made by the
company, that *must* (at least in the eyes of marketing managers or
customers) be supported by your new product. For instance, if Victor's
Evision *must* talk to the Siemens controller for him to sell it, then
he has no choice but to use whatever bus Siemens used in their
controller.
> Pick an existing standard that handles well many differnt suppliers and
> users and would allow equipment to coexist on a buss
>
> Establish a governing body that allows suppliers to register a company
> code with.
Fine ideas; but they take a lot of time and money. Most EV suppliers are
"starving artists" that don't have the resources to support such an
effort.
> so if Otmar has vendor code "D5 AA 96"
> and Rich has vender code "D5 AA AD"...
I like this idea. It leads to a multi-master message-based network
rather than a master/slave based network. But it's harder to program;
programmers naturally resist it in favor of the simpler master-slave
system.
> Side note (where the auto industry has actually done a good
> job, because they were forced to by the service sector and
> the government) is the ECU
Agreed; see above.
> I have looked at data from my GM ECU and it is in this manner.
Yes; many CAN systems use this message-based approach.
> about $100 from a wrecking yard. Has anyone thought about using
> one of these [automotive ECUs] as a robust platform for charge
> control or regen control or ....
It is certainly a good idea. But difficult to make work in practice. The
auto companies make these "black boxes" as inscrutible as they can. They
actively work to make them hard to "hack". The data we have on them is
mostly reverse-engineered or leaked by some sympathetic insiders.
But, you could pick one whose schematics, programming, and other data
technical data has escaped somehow "onto the net" so you can use it. It
would certainly be a lot more robust than trying to make some toy or
indoor office device work in a car.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Indeed. In fact, why not post it on the net so anyone can use it?
It may even result in more people driving EV's. But I'd recommend
licensing it with the GPL to prevent the unscrupulous from taking your
generous gift for their own profit.
According to Neon John,
> A lifetime's experiene has taught me over and over that whatever I do
> for or to others comes back to me in spades. Therefore I'd give the
> second guy the data. Of course, I'd note what it cost me and make it
> apparent that donations would be accepted :-)
>
> The other reason I'd give the data away is that I realize that very
> little of what any of us does is wholly original work. We all build
> on the prior works of others, most of this info having been freely
> given to us. Therefore I see it as only fair to give back.
>
> John
>
> On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 16:42:59 -0700, Victor Tikhonov
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >Guy A had his car's tranny measured on CNC table for $300
> >(or whatever) so he had his adapter plate made using this data.
> >
> >Guy B who wanted to convert own vehicle (same model), not to
> >reinvent a wheel and duplicate efforts, asked for the data,
> >so he can fabricate his own plate as well.
> >
> >Should guy A give the data for free?
> >Should he charge every single one approaching him with this question?
> >
> >What would *you* do in guy A's shoes?
> >
> >Thanks,
> >Victor
> >
> >(Disclaimer - this is not about me, my CRX or the plate for it).
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address
> http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN
--
Best Regards,
Tony
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--- Begin Message ---
It's true I see a lot of dry shed shalac laying around near the windings but
I pushed them with a stick and nothing changed sound wise & they feel solid.
Is the stick test not worthy? Lawrence Rhodes.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Neon John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: Loud Lester charger?
Good advice.
If the transformer itself is vibrating loudly and you don't mind the
work of removing it from the charger, take it to an electric motor
repair shop and have it "dipped and baked" in winding varnish. This
will almost completely stop all vibrations, as it locks the
laminations and windings in place. There will still be a little
magnetostrictive hum but it won't be bad.
This is a standard treatment that I do to all constant voltage and
"leakage flux" transformers that I use in my shop. I can't stand that
buzz.
I would not expect to pay more than $50 for the service, especially if
you can wait until they have some other jobs to run through the dip
tank and oven and can piggyback your transformer on the runs.
John
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 11:16:44 -0700, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Is it normal for a Lestronic I 120vdc/12vdc Model 9776 charger to
be so loud?
They use a constant-voltage transformer. This type of transformer drives
the iron core into saturation, so the magnetic forces on it are larger.
There is also a deliberate air gap in the core; the large magnetic force
in the core is trying to close that air gap (at the peaks of the AC
line), and releasing its pull (at the zero crossings) 120 times per
second. This makes a noticeable "brrrr" noise.
This noise is normally only 2-3 times louder than a conventional
transformer of the same power, which isn't bad at all. However, the
transformer's vibration can cause other parts to vibrate
sympathetically. For instance, two pieces of the metal case vibrate
against each other, producing a loud buzz. Or the transformer itself can
have loose mounting screws or loose laminations or windings. This is
what usually makes the racket associated with such transformers.
Try picking up a corner of the case, or tipping it on various sides. If
the noise changes, look for loose screws or bent metal pieces. Check the
transformer mounting screws to be sure they are tight. Press on the
windings with a wooden stick and see if they move, or the sound changes.
Transformers are supposed to be dipped in varnish to "glue together" all
their parts to avoid vibration, but they might have done a careless job.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been saying John or you Roderick or any number of quasi famous folk
like the Rev. Gadget. Those with some brains and speech skills. Get one or
all of you on Coast to Coast AM. This program has millions of listeners.
They talk about the cost of gas just about every night. That listener base
is very interested in technical subjects. They mention Hydrogen, diesel
etc. I blew Arts mind one night when I told him of the Tzero. He had no
idea and he is an electronics nut with an acre of ham radio antennas.
Anyone live near Pahrumph, NV or happen to know Art Bell. I bet if you drove
up to Art Bells house he might take a ride. The guy drives a Metro. He's
half way there. Pahrumph is near Las Vegas isn't it? Lawrence
Rhodes........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2005 4:34 PM
Subject: John Wayland does Radio Talk Show
I just got a call from my friend and fellow Amphead John Wayland. He played
me a recording of a conservative talk show he called into and blew the
hosts mind about performance EVs. He was one of these typical types that
believes that EVs are gutless and slow. He even gave out Johns URL for
Plasma Boy Racing. John told me the hits to his site were going crazy. Way
to go, John! Maybe there will be a few more spectators at Woodburn this
year to see for themselves.
Roderick Wilde
"Suck Amps EV Racing"
www.suckamps.com
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.17/84 - Release Date: 8/29/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dennis Merritt wrote:
> Anyone have any experiences with Sam's club's GC2 Stowaway Golf Cart
> batteries?
> Price seems right at $46.63
I used a set a long time ago, and had good luck with them. They aren't
quite as good as the USBattery or Trojans, but easy to get and the price
is right.
--
*BE* the change that you wish to see in the world.
-- Mahatma Gandhi
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would expect Guy B to offer to pay part of the cost.
If the vehicle is popular for conversions, maybe Guy A could pick
some number of vehicles to spread the cost over, and sell copies
of the plans to that many people, then maybe put them up for free
somewhere, or donate them to one of the EV suppliers.
Ralph
Victor Tikhonov writes:
>
> It's not about me, so I can't "give someone a break".
>
> It's about two guys (I don't know friends or not, I
> don't know them, and they are not on the list)
> wanting to do simialr cars and needing the dimensions.
>
> So one is quietly waiting for another to get it (and 100%
> pay for it) to have a free ride. I suspect the first one
> does not realize that and will be paying "for himself"
> since he needs it anyway (only to be approached later...)
>
> According to most of responses, the first one must pay it
> all and "give second one a break" since EVs are already
> expensive enough".
>
> But somehow this still doesn't seem fair.
>
> I'm no judge, and can't suggest anything, just heard
> the story I wanted to pass on.
>
> Dennis Merritt wrote:
> > Neon John speaks the truth... In my opinion... Give the guy a break.. Evs
> > are expensive enuff without someone giving others breaks..
> >
> > REVgards,
> >
> > Dennis Merritt
> > Sacramento
>
>
> --
> Victor
> '91 ACRX - something different
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Snip> So, the correct answer seems to be: To advance
the brushes, rotate them in the direction of rotor rotation. As someone
mentioned several months ago, this is the opposite of what you would think
based on advancing the timing on ICE's.
I may be reading this wrong but I believe this is incorrect. Neutral is
located directly in line with the center of the pole shoes. A neutrally timed
motor will have the brushes aligned with the two pole shoe mount bolts. I
always refer to rotation from the drive end or D.E. So lets say we are looking
at your motor from the D.E. and the rotation you want is CCWDE then you would
need to rotate your comm. plate CWDE or against the rotation to commentate in
advance of neutral. Even if you are looking at it from the C.E. you need to
move against rotation to advance.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Mark Thomasson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Bob, Thanks for the reply. So, the
correct answer seems to be: To advance
the brushes, rotate them in the direction of rotor rotation. As someone
mentioned several months ago, this is the opposite of what you would think
based on advancing the timing on ICE's.
Wow, 34 degrees you say! I tried 10.7 (recommended by that Madman guy)
degrees to reduce the dramatic arcing I was getting when I bypassed my
series field to get a speed boost, but I'm still gettng some arcing. I
guess I just didn't go far enough. I'm drilling and tapping my own holes,
so I can set it anywhere I want. Thanks again. Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Bath"
To:
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2005 11:53 PM
Subject: Re: Brush Advance
> Mark, it was a long time ago when I did this
> operation, but here's what I remember:
> With Honda, you need to advance the brushes in the
> clockwise direction, and make certain your A1 is
> connected to S2, as the Honda driveshafts rotate
> opposite of most all other vehicles on the road
> through at least 1995. To do this, go to the
> commutator end of the motor, and push the brush
> springs behind the little retainer bars that were made
> for this purpose. Next, remove the (4) 1/4" x 20
> screws holding the casting on. Nudge the housing back
> about 1 cm. You should be able to turn the casting 34
> degrees clockwise. Back out the allen screws sitting
> in the holes. (Sometimes they're located pretty
> deep). You can now put the allen screws in the
> counterclockwise settings (the retard position).
>
> I hope that wasn't a "Microsoft answer" (technically
> correct, but not helpful to the issue you're
> addressing)...
> (;-p
> peace,
>
> --- Mark Thomasson wrote:
>
>> When advancing the brushes on DC motors, do the
>> brushes move in the
>> direction of motor rotation or against rotation?
>> Thanks, Mark T
>>
>>
>
>
> '92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V
> ____
> __/__|__\ __
> =D-------/ - - \
> 'O'-----'O'-'
> Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
> wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
>
>
>
> ____________________________________________________
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
> http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
>
>
---------------------------------
Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
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