EV Digest 4678
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Help on BMS Pricing
by Edward Ang <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Why not? Onboard "smart" boat chargers?
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: 924 EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) A few questions...
by "Loki Laufeyiarson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Li-ion/agm battery packs Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Siemens EV Motors
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: 924 EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Re Hep with battery wiring, avoid looping back
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Buses talk...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: IOTA
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 924 EV
by "Ray Brooks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AGM battery mgmt system
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Driving White Zombie
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Home Garage Lift (For EV Conversion)
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Help with battery wiring
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: 924 EV
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Help with battery wiring
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AGM battery lifetime
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Home Garage Lift (For EV Conversion)
by "Noel P. Luneau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
I have come to realize that what people wants may not
necessarily be what they will pay for. And, what
somebody wants may not be what another person wants.
And, worse, what everyone wants may not even be the
best product.
I am not asking for design ideas here. I am only
asking for your opinion on how much do you think you
would pay for such a system based on the pdf file. I
have the system already running on my EV. I am simply
checking if it make sense to bring it to the market.
If it is too hard to set a price based only on the
PDF, please tell me what you would pay for such a
system if it include things not mentioned on the pdf.
Thank you for your help.
Ed Ang
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Ed, what do you propose for the BMS to do?
>
> - per cell overvoltage protection?
> - supplement charge low cells? During charge and
> discharge?
> - allow pseudo real-time feedback of voltage
> monitoring to instrumentation?
>
> I think if you first follow Victor's, Otmar's and
> Rich's lead on asking what
> people want, then you may get a better idea of what
> will be paid for it.
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Edward Ang
> Sent: September 8, 2005 5:16 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Help on BMS Pricing
>
> All,
>
> I am curious how much you would pay for such a
> system if I make it
> available. Please send responds directly to me at
> EdAng at airlabcorp dot
> com.
>
> http://www.airlabcorp.com/EWS_Sheet.pdf
>
> Thanks.
>
> Ed Ang
>
>
>
>
>
______________________________________________________
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief
> effort.
> http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
>
>
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have been looking at some alternatives to the AGM torture method of
charging in series. I noticed on a website where an EVer used separate
chargers for all 12 of his yellow top batteries with pretty good results
over time. He is apparently using some "cheapie" automotive chargers at
that.
So...I was looking through my latest Basspro catalog (one of our local MO
companies) and ran across some really NEAT multbank boat chargers that are
microprocessor controlled.
On the good ones each battery is done individually and they are made
specifically for deep cycle batteries.
So here is the question. Why not use several of the 3 or 4 bank chargers?
They are small, pretty powerful for their size, available, and priced
reasonably. Average current for each bank is 10 or 15 amps on the better
models. I figure I have all night to charge up as necessary.
What say y'all?
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray, here is a good pic of the 944 drivetrain. If I understand other
postings, the 924 is similar with the transaxle at the rear end and the
motor at the front. http://members.rennlist.com/mikenine5one/951Parts.html
from the drawing you can see:
* the rear frame, where the trailing suspension hangs from, may interfere
with an electric motor. You will have to modify the frame to accommodate
the motor.
* the torque tube has the integrated gear shift, which will require
modifying the adapter plate and somehow working out new gear shift mounting.
Look for where the VW and 911 transaxles have their shift mechanisms - a lot
come out the rear.
* you may find that the CVs bolt on as I know some Porsche and Audi CVs are
interchangeable.
* you will need to keep an eye on weight distribution to keep the fore/aft
weight as close to the original car as possible. You can use various
battery boxes to move the weight around.
As I mentioned previously keep an eye out for transaxle mounts and clutch
linkages. The clutch might be straightforward, but if the transaxle mounts
are different it takes some frame modification and welding
For example. The transmission used in the 944 is the same "guts" as used in
the Audi 5000s, although the casings are drastically different. The
mounting locations are quite different as well. The Porsche tx is in the
rear end, the Audi is up front (as a FWD!).
My recommendation, if you want to use the 924, is to put the motor up front.
You can do it cheaply, with a buddy who does backyard machining (the likes
of grassroots EV), or get a professional to build it for you (ElectroAuto or
your local machine shop). This will require much less work than potential
body/suspension/frame modification for a motor on the rear transaxle or
trying to put in a 911/VW transaxle. You may even be able to put the motor
up front with **no** welding, just bending of steel parts (depends on your
capabilities and resources).
Good luck
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: September 8, 2005 3:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 924 EV
Is not the 924 a front engined water cooled rear wheel drive car? If you
wanted to put in a 911 or VW transaxle up front, would you end up making it
a front wheel drive? Yikes! That might be a bit of work!
Or did you plan on putting the transaxle and motor in the rear? I expect you
would have to get out the cutting torch to replace a differential with a
transaxle, they are quite a bit bigger.
Do not forget you will have to rework all the shifting mechanism as well as
clutch mechanism. This is not easy work.
If you want to do this simply to get around building a custom adapter plate,
don't bother. Adapter plates can be built very rough and crude indeed if
you are too cheap to spend the money. See grassrootsev.com
I am sure ElectroAutomotive or your local machine shop can set you up with a
quality adapter plate at the lowest possible cost.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Brooks
Sent: September 8, 2005 7:32 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: 924 EV
I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 911 or even a VW type 1 transaxle
to the 924 chassis. The only real challenge would be the inner CV joints and
with a little luck those may either fit perfectly or require minor fiddling.
With the above mentioned transaxles the adaptor bits are readily available.
The electric motor would be mounted in the back of the car eliminating the
weight of the forward bellhousing, driveshaft, etc.
If the VW tranny would work it would save a lot of money vs the 911 trans
and would probably have a more usable 4th gear.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm pretty new to this discussion list (having just subscribed today) and you
all seem pretty comendable on your knowledge. I've always been a bit of a
gearhead, and always have some kind of brain-storm going on from stuff like a
true variable-speed transmission (that isn't practical, so don't ask) to a
self-powered supercharger for ICE engines. If it has wheels and goes down the
road, I'm interested, and the faster the better!
Having recently discovered the benefits of EV, I'm begining to think of things
that I can experiment with. I'd like to start off with an electric motorcycle.
My daily commute is pretty light, although I do often go on the highway at 60
MPH. Other than that, the peak speed I normally reach is about 45 MPH.
Now for the questions: For a fairly light EV, such as a motorcycle, what would
be the best motor/controller/battery combo with a 1:1 drive ratio? What would
be the dimension requirements on said equipment? Would the dimensions require a
special frame? I would ask that you stay away from listing model specifics at
this time, since I'm still in the planning stage and it might be a while before
I'm ready to purchase the power plant... size and ratings will do. I'd like to
get as much performance as I can with about a 20 to 30 mile range.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Don, Bob and All,
A previous post by Doug, He has others too.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi Jerry, Jukka and all,
I will just add some details and distinguish between the two Thunder Sky
approaches "under test" in my 2 EVs:
1) The Skoda mini-pickup has 26 of the 100 and 200amphr cells/pairs, along
with a 7 DCS-33 AGM lead pack for peak power. So the TS nominal voltage is
93V, supported by 84V AGM pack (through a diode at first and after a bit of
discharge, joined directly by manually switching on a contactor.) So it
really is like a "good" 84V system. This vehicle has my "power booster"
feature that inserts a cheap 12V SLI flooded battery in series to the motor
controller when I need a burst of more power/speed. So it is part-time
equivalent to 96V under high load, which is still in the voltage range for
the Curtis 1221R-84V controller with regen. That hints at one reason for me
to do it this way - to be able to use the controller and DC-DC converters I
have. If I was starting from scratch, I would prefer a slightly higher
voltage system.
I do have regs on the ThunderSky batteries in this vehicle, the nice
efficient DC-DC converter style ones that I received from TS (no longer
available). The battery charger is made up of 2 48V nominal (55V), 9A,
isolated switching power supplies that run off either 120 or 240VAC. This
is low enough to not put these special 10A maximum rated TS regulators at
risk. There are no regulators on the AGM batteries, but current in is
limited to 1A through the light bulb and Zener diodes charger. (Except with
the contactor closed and regening current into them)
2) For the Skoda hatchback upgraded this past winter, I tried a different
approach which was to go heavier on the AGM batteries and lighter on the TS
cells and $, and a little higher voltage. The goal was to have a peppier
car at 400 pounds lighter, with just slightly more range, than with golf
cart batteries. In other words, I wanted a car that would do the same
commuting to work function as before, but do it with more reserves of speed,
acceleration, range, handling and braking, as a better EV experience. The
hatchback now has 8 DCS-75 AGM batteries and 28 of the 100 Amp-Hr TS cells.
The 2 battery pack strings are direct connected through a contactor whenever
the EV is running or charging. For this EV, it is the AGM batteries that
are the "main" pack and the li ion batteries that are helping, which is the
opposite to the pickup. It is a more like a "regular" 96V system. The TS li
ion batteries supply a portion of the current required when running and
recharge the AGMs during coasting and pauses. Note also that by charging
the AGM pack to the voltage it requires, the TS cells are only charged to
about 4V per cell. This means that the TS cells are not charged and used to
their maximum capacity, but this is not needed - neither for their health
nor my range needs - and they should actually last longer charged to only
this level. The TS string stays up near the final charged voltage after
charging has been stopped, while the AGMs soon drop down to their well known
lower resting voltage level. So I could freshen up the AGM battery string's
charge after a few days of sitting, just by turning on the battery strings
connecting contactor, to charge them from the TS string .
There are Rudman Regs on the 8 AGM batteries and no regulators an the TS li
cells, which is also the opposite situation to the pickup. The AGM
batteries need them, as you would expect, since they are being charged
directly by the charger like in any "normal" EV. The TS cells don't need
regulators as much since they are not being charged anywhere near 4.25
V/cell average pack voltage, so it is unlikely they will get out of balance
before I check them next. Until now, they are staying well in balance, but
I will eventually get regulators built or bought and installed.
The charger is made up of the original Czech 84V 20A 240VAC isolated
charger and 2 5V, 20A power supplies in series to boost the voltage up for a
96V system.
Overall, this second relatively "low cost" and simple approach has met or
exceeded my expectations, and I am pleased with it for the purpose intended.
Another observation on Li Ion batteries:
I think that Valence is a good battery choice that I expect will gain
market share. At the moment it seems more expensive up front, but
considering the expected cycle life, and the BMS included, looks very
attractive to me.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerry dycus"
To:
Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 10:02 PM
Subject: Re: 100 mile range, Re: Alternative batteries
> Hi Jukka and All,
>
> Jukka Järvinen wrote:
> I would say 2C is already VERY useful.(will write another thread what
> I'm talking in here)
>
>
> For high voltage AC drives maybe but for DC that's rather
> light. Though Doug Hartley has had good luck with 300amphr buddy pairs,
> 100 and 200amphr cells/pair along with an AGM lead pack for peak power.
> That works well as when heavier draws are needed the stiffer voltage of
> the agm's take the load while the Li-ions take it the other times at 96vdc
> nom. He doesn't use regs I think but still has good results as he has such
> a large pack which is gently charged, discharged.
>
>
> Among chemistries and individual cells there sure are HUGE differences.
>
> I have sorted cells from normal production line which have less than 1
> mohm internal resistance. These cells are 150 ah Li-Mn cells. sagging
> was very low and battery got even better after few discherges (temp
> about 40 celsius). Very useful already in 5C rates.
>
> I have sorted out also cells with enormous Rint. like 130 mohm. Useful
> only in very low 1/10C rates.
>
>
> This is why I can't use these in my EV I'll sell to reg people which
> is too bad as I'd love to have a 250 mile range EV!! If I had money to
> spare I might even try them myself. Though for technical people like you,
> Doug, Victor, ect they are an interesting way to go.
>
>
>
>
> Many hope to have Lithium cells in sizes starting 100 Ah and up with
> 0,001% tolerance. quess what... It will never happen. Even if cells
> would be very similar they would be scattered around the car and
> air/liquid flows would not allow cohorent enough cooling/heating. again
> differences in their properties... Even BMS will not flatten out cells
> to this tolerance. But do we need that ? nope.
>
>
> Li-ions are not the only battery with this temp difference
> problem as it will kill AGM's too. I like to keep all my batts together so
> they all stay withing a degree of each other cutting this problem to
> almost nothing. It's a major advantage in my EV having them all in one
> spot just for this reason. An insulated, temp controlled batt box or boxes
> is worthwhile especially in winter for lead and summer for li-ions, NiMH.
>
> Thanks to you, Doug and Victor for experimenting with
> these batts and letting us know what you find. with the coming recession
> and all the new Li-ion chemical factories about to start production, the
> price should start dropping faster and hopefully quality control will be
> improved as better, cheaper Li-ions are the key to wide speard EV use..
>
> Jerry Dycus
>
>
> Jukka Järvinen
> R&D Director
> Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
> Sepänkatu 3
> 11710 RIIHIMÄKI
> FINLAND
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Puh./Fax. +358 19 735 705
> GSM +358 440 735 705
> www.fevt.com
>
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Start your day with Yahoo! - make it your home page
>
---------------------------------
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I thought so... I got a lot of "salesman" talk from him, and suspected this
was more of the same. Thanks for letting me know.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: September 8, 2005 2:46 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Siemens EV Motors
Don Cameron wrote:
> The gentlemen at Electro Mavin said Metric Mind has a shaft converter
> for these motors (news to me, but I am not sure what Victor is up to).
> He does not have controllers, nor know what controllers will work with
> the motors.
Don,
That gent deserves treatment by 2x4 :-)
I never had and don't plan to have adapters for twisted gear shafts of
Ford's 5133WS20. The end of the shaft is a helical gear, similar to the one
used in differentials.
I do have adapters for straight splines as 5133WS18 motors have, and it is
featured on the site for nearly 2 years now.
I have no idea how one would make an adapter to a gear (not spline).
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the correction Kevin, I though only the 944 had the front
engine-torque tube-rear transaxle set-up.
Ray, you may get lucky with CV bolt up, but make sure you check out:
- transaxle mounts (VW, Porsche, Audi are **not** all the same)
- shifting mechanisms
- speedometer connections
- clutch connections
- clearance for the motor
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Kevin Coughlin
Sent: September 8, 2005 4:10 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: 924 EV
Actually, the 924 has the motor and clutch up front, and the transaxle is
already in the back. Power goes from the clutch housing directly to the rear
of the motor in the front to the transaxle in the back of the car.
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is not the 924 a front engined water cooled rear wheel drive car? If
> you wanted to put in a 911 or VW transaxle up front, would you end up
> making it a front wheel drive? Yikes! That might be a bit of work!
>
> Or did you plan on putting the transaxle and motor in the rear? I
> expect you would have to get out the cutting torch to replace a
> differential with a transaxle, they are quite a bit bigger.
>
> Do not forget you will have to rework all the shifting mechanism as
> well as clutch mechanism. This is not easy work.
>
> If you want to do this simply to get around building a custom adapter
> plate, don't bother. Adapter plates can be built very rough and crude
> indeed if you are too cheap to spend the money. See grassrootsev.com
>
> I am sure ElectroAutomotive or your local machine shop can set you up
> with a quality adapter plate at the lowest possible cost.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 8, 2005 7:32 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: 924 EV
>
> I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 911 or even a VW type 1
> transaxle to the 924 chassis. The only real challenge would be the
> inner CV joints and with a little luck those may either fit perfectly or
require minor fiddling.
> With the above mentioned transaxles the adaptor bits are readily
available.
> The electric motor would be mounted in the back of the car eliminating
> the weight of the forward bellhousing, driveshaft, etc.
>
> If the VW tranny would work it would save a lot of money vs the 911
> trans and would probably have a more usable 4th gear.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> Look at the last line. "Strong acids and bases attack this material."
> is this what you want near your batteries?
That was for the particular grade McMaster Carr listed specs for. As I
said, it comes in many grades. The fish paper I used is discolored, but
not seriously damaged by battery acid.
If you want something to use with flooded batteries where you think it
will be saturated with acid, use one of the higher grades with glass
fiber.
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> I don't believe the material that forms the bus will be usable in
> 228 years. You show me one piece of electronics that is still
> functional from 228 years ago and then I'll believe! :-) That's
> what makes this claim ridiculous, not that the theory is wrong
> or even tough to understand, just that the implementation trumps
> the theory. Either these numbers were made up by someone in
> marketing, or someone has been engineering in a vacuum again.
As I said, these are theoretical statistical calculations, not based on
testing. They're just assuming a noise level, and calculating what
effect it would have. Noise in the real world isn't so nice and neat and
predictable.
Marketing just publishes the numbers that way to make it sound good. We
could "spin doctor" it the other way, too. Suppose a manufacturer sells
228,000 cars per year with that bus. With an error rate of 1 every 228
device-years, they would have 1,000 errors per year. These undetected
errors might be vital functions like "deploy airbags" or "engage
antilock brakes". A car with 1000 of these errors per year wouldn't be
considered reliable at all!
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cwarman wrote:
> So has anyone mentioned that these IOTA DLS-55AMP Power Converters would not
> work well in a EV and if there would be any special considerations on using
> one of these as opposed to a Zivan NG1 or any other type of DC/DC converter
> that everyone else is using.
Just remember that these are *NOT* DC/DC converters; they are AC to DC
power supplies that just happen to work with a DC input.
A "proper" DC/DC converter:
- specifies an input DC voltage range
- is protected from under- and over-voltage on its input
(at the very least with a DC-rated fuse)
- has an output specifically designed to charge a battery
(i.e. it is characterized for battery charging)
- does not shut down if the output battery is deeply discharged
(i.e. it supplies a constant output current if it can't
reach its constant output voltage setpoint)
- is temperature compensated so it won't overcharge a hot battery,
or undercharge a cold one
- is built to survive in an outdoor automotive environment
(shock and vibration, temperature extremes, water, dirt, bugs)
--
Every act of conscious learning requires the willingness to suffer an
injury to one's self-esteem. That is why young children, before they
are aware of their own self-importance, learn so easily. - Thomas Szasz
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I actually have no interest in converting a 924. There was a UK poster who
had mentioned the 924 and I started doing some thinking about the cars
layout and possibilities for simplifying the drivetrain, hence the thought
of the alternate transaxle. I used to build custom roll cages so I may be a
bit more inclined to think of weird options that might require a little
cutting and welding but in the long run would actually greatly improve the
vehicle by reducing the number of bits, requiring less custom machining and
taking a LOT of weight off the car.
I personally don't think I would convert anything but an extended cab small
PU truck. I don't want the batteries in the cockpit with me in a wreck. It
seems like no one takes structural safety very seriously. The batt boxes
need to be stressed to at least 3 g's and also contain the batts in case of
a roll over.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: 924 EV
> Ray, here is a good pic of the 944 drivetrain. If I understand other
> postings, the 924 is similar with the transaxle at the rear end and the
> motor at the front.
http://members.rennlist.com/mikenine5one/951Parts.html
>
> from the drawing you can see:
>
> * the rear frame, where the trailing suspension hangs from, may interfere
> with an electric motor. You will have to modify the frame to accommodate
> the motor.
>
> * the torque tube has the integrated gear shift, which will require
> modifying the adapter plate and somehow working out new gear shift
mounting.
> Look for where the VW and 911 transaxles have their shift mechanisms - a
lot
> come out the rear.
>
> * you may find that the CVs bolt on as I know some Porsche and Audi CVs
are
> interchangeable.
>
> * you will need to keep an eye on weight distribution to keep the fore/aft
> weight as close to the original car as possible. You can use various
> battery boxes to move the weight around.
>
> As I mentioned previously keep an eye out for transaxle mounts and clutch
> linkages. The clutch might be straightforward, but if the transaxle
mounts
> are different it takes some frame modification and welding
>
> For example. The transmission used in the 944 is the same "guts" as used
in
> the Audi 5000s, although the casings are drastically different. The
> mounting locations are quite different as well. The Porsche tx is in the
> rear end, the Audi is up front (as a FWD!).
>
>
> My recommendation, if you want to use the 924, is to put the motor up
front.
> You can do it cheaply, with a buddy who does backyard machining (the likes
> of grassroots EV), or get a professional to build it for you (ElectroAuto
or
> your local machine shop). This will require much less work than potential
> body/suspension/frame modification for a motor on the rear transaxle or
> trying to put in a 911/VW transaxle. You may even be able to put the
motor
> up front with **no** welding, just bending of steel parts (depends on your
> capabilities and resources).
>
>
> Good luck
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: September 8, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: 924 EV
>
> Is not the 924 a front engined water cooled rear wheel drive car? If you
> wanted to put in a 911 or VW transaxle up front, would you end up making
it
> a front wheel drive? Yikes! That might be a bit of work!
>
> Or did you plan on putting the transaxle and motor in the rear? I expect
you
> would have to get out the cutting torch to replace a differential with a
> transaxle, they are quite a bit bigger.
>
> Do not forget you will have to rework all the shifting mechanism as well
as
> clutch mechanism. This is not easy work.
>
> If you want to do this simply to get around building a custom adapter
plate,
> don't bother. Adapter plates can be built very rough and crude indeed if
> you are too cheap to spend the money. See grassrootsev.com
>
> I am sure ElectroAutomotive or your local machine shop can set you up with
a
> quality adapter plate at the lowest possible cost.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 8, 2005 7:32 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: 924 EV
>
> I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 911 or even a VW type 1 transaxle
> to the 924 chassis. The only real challenge would be the inner CV joints
and
> with a little luck those may either fit perfectly or require minor
fiddling.
> With the above mentioned transaxles the adaptor bits are readily
available.
> The electric motor would be mounted in the back of the car eliminating the
> weight of the forward bellhousing, driveshaft, etc.
>
> If the VW tranny would work it would save a lot of money vs the 911 trans
> and would probably have a more usable 4th gear.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess you could say that Lee Harts Battery Balancer is a BMS. He just had an
email saying that he was ordering boards for his Balancer and that if you
ordered it before the 15th (when he is making the final order), you'll get a
good price.
It might be a good idea to contact him. Here is a link to a description
http://www.geocities.com/sorefeets/balancerland/
I've already ordered mine.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gabriel Alarcon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "ev" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 3:11 PM
Subject: AGM battery mgmt system
> Does anybody know when a BMS is required for AGM's? For instance, when a
> certain number are wired in series, parallel or a combination of those. What
> BMS are commercially available out there?
>
> Gabe.
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Brehm wrote:
> I think they are 215/60/14's BFG drag radials @ 15psi
I'd try them at 12 psi and see if they hook any better. The
documention for those tires says no lower then that so don't try 10
psi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Noel Luneau wrote:
> What do you folks use to lift the glider for your home garage
> conversions?
>
> I was looking at a scissor lift
> http://www.americanautomotiveequipment.com/pages/831668/index.htm but it
> is pricy at $1,000.
How high do you want or need the vehicle to be? What type of work do
you plan on performing when it's on the lift?
Excellent video to watch about those "4 post lifts":
http://www.backyardbuddy.com/introforvideo.htm
Another interesting lift:
http://www.kwiklift.com/
Bonus pics ;)
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/6354/liftdetail200081bb.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7303/liftdetail200058jr.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/6536/2280815full1ul.jpg
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/8017/228081134full7qx.jpg (Good for
a full "frame off" restoration: search eBay for "auto rotisserie" )
http://img357.imageshack.us/img357/7391/1733ae.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning to run the power under the car in a conduit, both together. Safer
than having the power inside the cars, besides NEDRA rules require the power
cables to be outside the passenger area. Can monitoring wires be inside the
passenger area?
But any monitoring cables will be separate, as far from the power as they can
be. From what I have understood from info on the list, having power and
monitor/sensor wires close to one another sets up conditions for noise.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 5:56 PM
Subject: Re: Help with battery wiring
> It is probably a bad idea to run any high capacity wiring inside the
> passenger area. I have chosen to run 2 outdoor rated conduits under the
> floor of my car where the exhaust system used to be. I will be keeping the
> positives and negatives apart, and they will provide routing for my battery
> monitoring cable (multiconductor RS-232 cable), a 30 amp circuit for vacuum
> pump, 12v chargers, etc.
>
> Seems a lot safer to me, very economical to do and no need to pull up the
> carpet.
>
> Mark Ward
> St. Charles, MO
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray, I suggest you prefix "thinking" or "wondering" postings that they are
just that. I thought you were serious about conversion of a 924 and I was
seriously trying to help. If I knew otherwise I would not have responded.
As for safety, you will find it is a mixed bag. There are a **lot** of
people who take safety (whether structural or electrical) very seriously,
others do not.
A question for you: how do you suggest people stress battery boxes to 3g?
FEA? Crash testing?
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ray Brooks
Sent: September 8, 2005 7:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 924 EV
I actually have no interest in converting a 924. There was a UK poster who
had mentioned the 924 and I started doing some thinking about the cars
layout and possibilities for simplifying the drivetrain, hence the thought
of the alternate transaxle. I used to build custom roll cages so I may be a
bit more inclined to think of weird options that might require a little
cutting and welding but in the long run would actually greatly improve the
vehicle by reducing the number of bits, requiring less custom machining and
taking a LOT of weight off the car.
I personally don't think I would convert anything but an extended cab small
PU truck. I don't want the batteries in the cockpit with me in a wreck. It
seems like no one takes structural safety very seriously. The batt boxes
need to be stressed to at least 3 g's and also contain the batts in case of
a roll over.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:05 PM
Subject: RE: 924 EV
> Ray, here is a good pic of the 944 drivetrain. If I understand other
> postings, the 924 is similar with the transaxle at the rear end and the
> motor at the front.
http://members.rennlist.com/mikenine5one/951Parts.html
>
> from the drawing you can see:
>
> * the rear frame, where the trailing suspension hangs from, may interfere
> with an electric motor. You will have to modify the frame to accommodate
> the motor.
>
> * the torque tube has the integrated gear shift, which will require
> modifying the adapter plate and somehow working out new gear shift
mounting.
> Look for where the VW and 911 transaxles have their shift mechanisms - a
lot
> come out the rear.
>
> * you may find that the CVs bolt on as I know some Porsche and Audi CVs
are
> interchangeable.
>
> * you will need to keep an eye on weight distribution to keep the fore/aft
> weight as close to the original car as possible. You can use various
> battery boxes to move the weight around.
>
> As I mentioned previously keep an eye out for transaxle mounts and clutch
> linkages. The clutch might be straightforward, but if the transaxle
mounts
> are different it takes some frame modification and welding
>
> For example. The transmission used in the 944 is the same "guts" as used
in
> the Audi 5000s, although the casings are drastically different. The
> mounting locations are quite different as well. The Porsche tx is in the
> rear end, the Audi is up front (as a FWD!).
>
>
> My recommendation, if you want to use the 924, is to put the motor up
front.
> You can do it cheaply, with a buddy who does backyard machining (the likes
> of grassroots EV), or get a professional to build it for you (ElectroAuto
or
> your local machine shop). This will require much less work than potential
> body/suspension/frame modification for a motor on the rear transaxle or
> trying to put in a 911/VW transaxle. You may even be able to put the
motor
> up front with **no** welding, just bending of steel parts (depends on your
> capabilities and resources).
>
>
> Good luck
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Don Cameron
> Sent: September 8, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: 924 EV
>
> Is not the 924 a front engined water cooled rear wheel drive car? If you
> wanted to put in a 911 or VW transaxle up front, would you end up making
it
> a front wheel drive? Yikes! That might be a bit of work!
>
> Or did you plan on putting the transaxle and motor in the rear? I expect
you
> would have to get out the cutting torch to replace a differential with a
> transaxle, they are quite a bit bigger.
>
> Do not forget you will have to rework all the shifting mechanism as well
as
> clutch mechanism. This is not easy work.
>
> If you want to do this simply to get around building a custom adapter
plate,
> don't bother. Adapter plates can be built very rough and crude indeed if
> you are too cheap to spend the money. See grassrootsev.com
>
> I am sure ElectroAutomotive or your local machine shop can set you up with
a
> quality adapter plate at the lowest possible cost.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ray Brooks
> Sent: September 8, 2005 7:32 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: 924 EV
>
> I wonder how hard it would be to adapt a 911 or even a VW type 1 transaxle
> to the 924 chassis. The only real challenge would be the inner CV joints
and
> with a little luck those may either fit perfectly or require minor
fiddling.
> With the above mentioned transaxles the adaptor bits are readily
available.
> The electric motor would be mounted in the back of the car eliminating the
> weight of the forward bellhousing, driveshaft, etc.
>
> If the VW tranny would work it would save a lot of money vs the 911 trans
> and would probably have a more usable 4th gear.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: Help with battery wiring
I am planning to run the power under the car in a conduit, both together.
Safer than having the power inside the cars, besides NEDRA rules require
the power cables to be outside the passenger area. Can monitoring wires be
inside the passenger area?
I don't see a problem with low current wiring being inside if it doesn't get
pinched somewhere in the routing process or placed where it will wear with
time. I have considered this myself.
But any monitoring cables will be separate, as far from the power as they
can be. From what I have understood from info on the list, having power
and monitor/sensor wires close to one another sets up conditions for
noise.
That depends on what kind of instrumentation you are using and whether it is
actually sensitive to EMI. I am going to use shielded signal cables and
ferrite beads on both ends if needed to surpress noise or RF.
In my case, my car will contain a couple of amateur radios and I have a
better chance of getting interference
from those.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Mike , If I was a battery I think I'd like to be in your car. Your going
to care for me till I can give only 20% of what I could when I was in my
prime, we may be together for a long long time . Now before I move in .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Barber" <
-Battery management system is used so that the individual batts aren't
charged past gassing voltage
yes , I like this
-Same batt mgmt system gets batts equalized to same voltage using bypass
regulation when charging
yes yes
-Pack is never drawn down past 80% Depth Of Discharge
Many batteries are told this story , but later find that sombody had to go
futher than they planned or a place to charge from was not working, open or
somthing , and as the need to get home and not be stuck on the side of the
road is almost alway more important the me being dragged down to 0 v I'm
going to have to have this one in writing .
-Pack is sized to give 50 mile range with fresh pack and 80% DOD
O boy , I'm going to have a lot of friends. what will be are regular work
out ?
-End of life for pack is when it is able to be charged to only 20% of
initial capability
I got to tell ya , when we get old we somthing go fast , and most of us get
put to sleep ( they call it recycled ,? I just don't want to know about it )
when we can't put out %50
-Typical driver has heavy foot - routinely makes current draws of 1000A
Good your getting AGM's
Some of the info that I have indicates expected cycle life based on DOD.
What this doesn't tell me is what the capacity of the batteries is at end
of
life. For instance, if my average commute to and from work is only 10
miles, and this represents 40% DOD, then even if the pack is only able to
be
charged to 20% of original capacity, I could still make my commute and not
exceed the 80% DOD.
So when can I move in ? I could see living in your car for 3 years easy and
if your really going to keep me around till I'm 80% dead maybe 10, ( that's
abot 6 ah ) but I've heard storys of such fine care like this before .
Steve Clunn .
When people ask me why did you build so many electric cars I say " I had to
have a place to put all those 1/2 dead batteries"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting idea but my wife would give birth to a Baby Cow if I came
home and started to take the jack hammer to the cement floor :)
Noel
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Victor Tikhonov
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 12:37 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Home Garage Lift (For EV Conversion)
To avoid these problems I just dug up a grease pit in my garage.
Tim Clevenger wrote:
>>
> That looks cool. Problem with a conversion, of course, is that the
> weight distribution changes with each modification you make. You'd
> have to make extra sure that you adjusted for when the ICE is removed,
> the electric motor reinstalled, the batteries installed, etc.
>
> I would probably look into getting some tall transmission jacks to put
> under each axle after it was lifted into place as extra protection.
>
>
> Tim
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
