EV Digest 4680
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A few questions...
by "Loki Laufeyiarson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: EVDL FAQ? Wikfy it perhaps?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: AGM battery mgmt system
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
4) WZ/Woodburn video, Last minute rush, was: Where to find...
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) 99' Bombardier quest
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Kilovac score on Ebay
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: NEDRA race location change?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: NEDRA race location change?
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Critical Mass
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: AGM battery lifetime
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Electric fever infects Redmond Or.
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) High current draw AGM battery capacity
by Mike Barber <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AGM battery mgmt system and thoughts.
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Kilovac score on Ebay (and sniping)
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by Tim Humphrey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) set ev mail
by "Michael A. Radtke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: EV pulbicity Re: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
by Stefano Landi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: High current draw AGM battery capacity
by "Brown, Jay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by Steve O <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Kilovac score on Ebay (and sniping)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well first off, you probably don't want a 1:1 ratio. Most electric
motors, that are suitable for a Motorcyle, get their best efficiency/power
when spinning at about 3,000-4,000 rpm. So unless you are planning on
using 6" wheels, you'll probably want a 3:1 or 4:1 ratio.
So my idea of a through-the-hub motor to save space is impractical... ah
well
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everyone,
Of course
there are a whole new set of potential problems, but the wikipedia
seems to be holding together some 723,039 articles, 2.2 million pages,
22 million edits, a half million users, and some 500 administrators.
http://en.wikipedia.org
So why not just use the Wikipedia as a home for the FAQ? I've thought
it would be great if the Wikipedia section for electric vehicles had
more EVDL member contribution. Since this resource is widely used, it
would make sense to put the FAQ there.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
James Massey wrote:
"Apart from that, the choices pretty much come down to
DIY solutions. I am using some cheap programmable logic
controllers to integrate the signals from the Rudman
regs, and control a dumb-as-a-brick transformer charger in
a manner that the AGMs and regulators should be happy with."
James, are you saying that battery management systems, like
the Rudman regulators are insufficient alone to work with
AGMs?
I wonder what others' experiences have been with BMS? Has
anyone tried PowerCheq?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
And now for a different sort of White Zombie video...
Part of the experience of Woodburn for me has been the pre-race chaos in
John Wayland's garage as he struggles to get his car ready for the race
... typically as the race is already starting. For Woodburn this usually
happens on Saturday and on into Sunday; this year it happened on Friday
night as John and others received word that EVs were on their way and
arriving at PIR. Not wanting to go beyond "fashionably late" to his own
invitational :o) the tension was high, and as usual John and the whole
crew handled it without getting rattled.
I've put together some selected highlights of this into a video. Great
quote from the beginning of the shot: John Wayland leaning into the trunk,
reminding himself "Don't drop the wrench."
http://ohmbre.org/video/woodburn_2005/fridayprep.mpeg
It's a big file, quite inexpertly shot (and lit), and doesn't contain any
racing, just a bit of worried John and Farver trying to figure out why the
Zilla has spaced out. (turned out it was a misplaced contactor microswitch
connector -- John did the S/P contactor setup a little differently from
the Zilla manual, and perhaps the microswitch wiring was a detail that got
neglected). If you want to see the Zilla really moving, well ... at the
end of the video, it's shown being pushed a few feet out of the garage.
But I think that video, together with this continuous no-cut clip of the
car streaking from start to finish (same as the other one, but without the
closer shot of the burnout) should impress quite solidly upon any doubters
that this car, its performance, and the effort behind it are totally real:
http://ohmbre.org/video/woodburn_2005/waylandslastrun.singlecam.mpeg
YES it's electric, and YES, it REALLY GOES THAT FAST. :o)
If I have one complaint about the video (beyond the MPEG1 conversion
heavily posterizing a low-light video and making everything splotchy --
why don't my divx exports work??) it's that I didn't capture enough to
show the high level of talent swarming in John's garage this year. Between
Tim Brehm, Kieth the Dutchman (whose last name escapes me), Jim Husted,
Marko Mongillo and probably others I'm not thinking of, this year's
"Woodburn garage scene" was more like those *good* episodes of Monster
Garage, where everyone knows what they're doing, everyone's got their own
part of the car to work on, and everything just hums.
More videos to come...
--chris
john bart said:
> Im looking for some videos of white zombie running at the track, i posted
> the recent 12.6 sec. 1/4 mile video on a forum i periodically visit
> (www.chitownracing.com) and there was a few non believers of the cars
> performance. They said they would like to see the video without any
> interruptions as far as camera angles changing and so on. Does anyone
> have a video, or know where a video is posted like this? Thanks for your
> help guys.
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy Folk's,
I was curious if anyone has a bomb and how they've solved a couple "issues".
The charger just runs, hear blower, no voltage indication or charge done
indication. I may have to put my EVCOM in and remove it.
There are rear brakes on the Euro model and no regen; but on the US model there
is rear regen and no rear brakes. The US model has front 6" drum brakes only.
I wonder why the difference.
Street 12" tires/rims are available for the 97-99' model but only 10" trailer
tires for the 2000. I assume since the street 12" tires are 2" larger in
diameter, the vehicle goes 5mph faster than the 25mph restriction.
The Regen appears to turn the armature into a boost converter to regen to 0.
Has anyone verified this operation or measured? I was thinking of putting a
flip-flop on the speed sensor to make the Curtis uP think it was going at half
speed for the 25mph limitation which would then be 37mph. With the 20% taller
tires I should get 44mph tops. I'm afraid to do field weakening since the uP
is flipping the controller around for regen and modulating the field it appears.
There is a federal restriction imbedded in the VIN number I found out. (Comes
up "low speed vehicle" on the DMV computer). The chief bimbette at the DMV
told me the vehicle was fine for titling as a car before I bought it but didn't
want to use here name. The person who sold it on Ebay had their phone
disconnected and doesn't respond to email. So I'm going to apply for a title
from the bill of sale and previous registration from "Georgia Power & Light"
and a cop then inspects it at the DMV. I did this on my cheese wedge about 25
years ago, I remember the cop shaking his head and said "buddy, your lucky I'm
in a good mood" and signed it off. If not I'll resell it as a glorified golf
cart and not make any speed modifications.
Have a renewable energy day, Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Managed to pick up a Kilovac EV250-2A (Czonka II) and a Kilovac
EV200AAANA (Czonka III) on ebay. $90 for both, including shipping.
Both are new, 12V coil, with economizers.
After getting sniped on a lot of 10 Vicor 150 to 12VDC 200W power
supplies, it was nice to get a good deal. I'm pretty stoked. The EV250
alone retails for $300+
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My wife and I were looking forward to attending the event this year, especially
with it being all weekend long.
However, "fecal matter occurred" and we were unable to attend.
I hope, wherever it is, there will be another "weekender" available.
Stay Charged!
Hump
Original Message -----------------------
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of TiM M
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 6:24 PM
To: EV-List-Post
Subject: RE: NEDRA race location change?
I'm OK with the place, it was the date that didn't work out for me. I
flew up for the day from Los Angeles last year and had a great time. I met
some people and put faces with posts. I have a standing obligation for the
labor day weekend and was disappointed to learn I'd have to skip it this
year.
Maybe next year....
TiM
______________________________________________________
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris Gribben,
You note that NEDRA is still grass roots. Maybe it is time to approach
(again?) the makers of the hybrids. I can imagine that Toyota, Lexus, Honda,
Acura and Ford, and their dealers, would be willing to bring their hybrids to
NEDRA events and offer ride-and-drives. They routinely show up at the Tour de
Sol. (I dream of a plug-in hybrid, tank and engine optional.)
And get in touch with the Tour de Sol. It looks likely that they will return
to the Saratoga Spring Auto Show in 2006, and having NEDRA drag racers as part
of the display would be great. Arranging for a drag race competition
coordinated with the TdS would be much more work, but maybe worth considering.
And then there is the TdS Autocross event for entrants who don't believe in
straight lines but like tire squeal.
www.TourdeSol.org
--
Mike Bianchi
Tour de Sol reporter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But can't you convert one?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Matthew Trevaskis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 4:08 PM
Subject: Re: Critical Mass
> Because "they" won't let us!! There is one (1) road-going EV (discounting
> the 40mph microcars etc.) that is available to purchase. Most of the
> European EVs are never offered here (through official dealers ;-) let
alone
> the Japanese and NA models :-(
>
> Yep, EVs cost about 10% to fuel using off-peak electricity compared to
> petrol, but you've got to find the vehicles first!
>
> Matt
>
> --
> Matthew Trevaskis
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> For electric vehicles, recharging installations and accessories
> ecodrive PO Box 255 Penzance TR18 9AA
> Tel: 0845 4-NO-FUEL (0845 466 3835)
> Fax*: 0845 466 4624
> http://www.eco-drive.co.uk
> *Fax modem will receive faxes electronically (without using paper) 8am-6pm
> Mon-Sat
>
> > From: "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Thu, 8 Sep 2005 13:51:08 -0400
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Subject: Re: Critical Mass
> >
> > Then in the UK where they pay $7 per gallon or Europe at $6 per gallon
why
> > isn't EVeryone buying EV's? I don't understand is electricity also to
the
> > moon?
> > Mark
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 1:37 AM
> > Subject: Critical Mass
> >
> >
> >>
> >> Howdy Folks
> >>
> >> I have been saying these two words to the EV industry folks I have been
> >> talking to all weekend at the EV drags and everyone sorta nods their
head
> >> like... Yeah, that could be coming.
> >>
> >> Looking over Bruce Parmenter's recent EVLN posts makes me think it is
even
> >> more here than I thought.
> >>
> >> I talk to folks everywhere I go about EVs, not just at work, and the
> > amount
> >> of interest has never been higher.
> >>
> >> It is not just the cost of fuel (of all types), though the economics of
it
> >> are an undeniably large factor. I believe more folks are understanding
> > that
> >> the effects of peak worldwide oil production and the effects of global
> >> warming are actually upon us. Long term non fossil fuel energy
solutions
> > are
> >> desperately needed worldwide and folks see EVs charged by cleaner forms
of
> >> energy as a part of it.
> >>
> >> When I give them the numbers.... [folks in the USA are less than 5
percent
> >> of global population using more than 25 percent of the planet's energy
> >> resources] they seem to be paying more attention now.
> >>
> >> Believe it or not, I did think twice before including the following
> >> paragraph, I simply believe that time is too short to be catering to
folks
> >> that base their attacks on others driven by their own ignorance
anymore.
> >>
> >> Any of you folks that don't believe in peak oil or global warming
driven
> > by
> >> human activity, please don't bother, even off-list, you will get no
> >> arguement from me. This is not political, it is reality. Go learn
> > something
> >> and be part of the solution instead of being part of the problem. You
know
> >> who you are. Do the words "environmental wackos" jog any memories?
> >> That term sounds political to me and I am certain it is very offensive
to
> >> many if not most on this list and no punches will be pulled in the
future
> > on
> >> folks who use it, get off it or get off this (non political) list.
> >>
> >> end rant, flame powered down.
> >>
> >> I won't be responding to comments on this post and if the List Gods see
> > fit
> >> to toss me off this list for posting it, so be it.
> >>
> >> .
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Roy LeMeur
> >> Olympia WA
> >>
> >> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> >> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
> >>
> >> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> >> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
> >>
> >> EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
> >> http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
.02-
As a newbie hoping to find and share information on building,
maintaining and living with an EV as my main form of transportation, I
also admit to having little interest in electric (or gas) drag racing.
I find myself skipping past the NEDRA/Woodburn posts, searching for
practical advice on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences of
EV-people in a petro-world.
Regards,
Jim Davis
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Man, I can't sit here and not respond to this! Chip has already done a
great job of answering Tom's post, but I just have to add my two cents
worth. Tom, I couldn't disagree with you more.
Tom Shay wrote:
.....the basic problem is that not very many people
are interested in racing of battery electric vehicles.
Let's admit that electric drag racing excites hardly anyone except the
participants.
No, I won't admit that at all. Tom, I haven't seen you at PIR on a
Friday or Saturday.....how would you know whether electric drag racing
there excites anyone? At these nighttime street drags, where hundreds of
<snip>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the response Steve. This seems to be a question that can really
only be answered by experience of those on this list like yourself, not mfg
spec sheets.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of STEVE CLUNN
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:41 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM battery lifetime
Hi Mike , If I was a battery I think I'd like to be in your car. Your going
to care for me till I can give only 20% of what I could when I was in my
prime, we may be together for a long long time . Now before I move in .
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Barber" <
> -Battery management system is used so that the individual batts aren't
> charged past gassing voltage
yes , I like this
> -Same batt mgmt system gets batts equalized to same voltage using
> bypass regulation when charging
yes yes
> -Pack is never drawn down past 80% Depth Of Discharge
Many batteries are told this story , but later find that sombody had to go
futher than they planned or a place to charge from was not working, open or
somthing , and as the need to get home and not be stuck on the side of the
road is almost alway more important the me being dragged down to 0 v I'm
going to have to have this one in writing .
> -Pack is sized to give 50 mile range with fresh pack and 80% DOD
O boy , I'm going to have a lot of friends. what will be are regular work
out ?
> -End of life for pack is when it is able to be charged to only 20% of
> initial capability
I got to tell ya , when we get old we somthing go fast , and most of us get
put to sleep ( they call it recycled ,? I just don't want to know about it )
when we can't put out %50
> -Typical driver has heavy foot - routinely makes current draws of
> 1000A
Good your getting AGM's
>
> Some of the info that I have indicates expected cycle life based on DOD.
> What this doesn't tell me is what the capacity of the batteries is at
> end of life. For instance, if my average commute to and from work is
> only 10 miles, and this represents 40% DOD, then even if the pack is
> only able to be charged to 20% of original capacity, I could still
> make my commute and not exceed the 80% DOD.
>
So when can I move in ? I could see living in your car for 3 years easy and
if your really going to keep me around till I'm 80% dead maybe 10, ( that's
abot 6 ah ) but I've heard storys of such fine care like this before .
Steve Clunn .
When people ask me why did you build so many electric cars I say " I had to
have a place to put all those 1/2 dead batteries"
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I just had to write about the Electric fever infecting Redmond, Oregon. Last
night Matt pulled the engine and tranny from the fastback. Being that Matt
lives just 2 doors down from me I took a little walk on over with my video
camera of the corvette footage in tow. Matt and his friend Tony were busy
cussing and fussing because the motor didnt just jump out of the car for them,
lol. Id gone over there to talk to Tonys dad Bob, who has been building
tyrannys as long as Ive done motors and has shown interest in maybe building
us a tranny for the car. These are the guys Matt got the car from. Bob was
running late, but a small group of guys rolled in to check out the electric
buzz that Matts been spreading here. I popped out the video and let them
watch the Zombie vs. Corvette slaughter. I started quoting some Zombie stats
at which point the kid just kept repeating 2000 amp?!?! I wasnt sure if the
guy was trying to just act cool or if he knew what I was talking ab!
out so I
asked him, you seem to know something about all this how did you acquire the
knowledge? Expecting a stupid answer he states Im a student in engineering at
the college. Man I cant wait for school to start back up so I can share this
with my physics professor he blurts, and my chemistry teacher, I bet he could
help, and my
needless to say this kid was pumped! After making him promise to
stay in touch or Id hunt him down like a dog, he left with that I cant wait
to tell people what I just saw pace. To keep this short, two more groups came
by last night (about 10 guys total) just to see what the buzz was. In the last
group a kid who looked like his main focus in life was beer and girls kept
asking some repeated questions about motors. I told him if he came by the shop
I could show him what I was talking about. He says no Ive built starters
before I just dont understand the words youre using. After a 5-minute motor
terminology course he was up to speed.
Bob finally shows up and the two of us got to BS for the first time. I got
some old cores down at the shop I could chop up and
as he talked I swear I
saw his eyes roll back like a great white about to feed on something juicy.
During this whole time Matts been squawking about how much easier this would
have been at the shop, DAD! He had only brought a handful of wrenches and
sockets home, hehehe. Bob had some tools (pry-bars) and they got the tranny to
split off and slid it out.
Not having a cherry picker, Matt, Tony, and I grabbed the little engine and
lifted it out by hand and slid it over to a corner of the garage. I have no
idea how long it will take us to make it electric but it isnt a gasser any
more! Matt was still miffed about not doing it at the shop, but he didnt see
the larger picture. Ten more people got exposed to the ever-growing electric
fever, which would not have happened if it had been done at the shop.
Just had to share a very fun night with you all
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have seen John Wayland post many times that AGM batteries have higher
capacity at high current draws than floodeds. I'm looking at the Hawker
Odysseys at this link
http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp
and I'm wondering what the capacity one could expect out of them when making
electric vehicle type current draws from them. I'm thinking this would be
sustained draws of 50A or so with a nominal pack voltage of 240V at 45mph
(assuming 250 watt hours per mile), with 1000A draws from stops, and a few
hundred amps into the pack with regen braking to a stop.
I know Optima yellow tops are used frequently for people who want an AGM
battery in their EV. What is the rated capacity (Ah) vs experienced
capacity for all you AGM users out there?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All, but especially Jim,
Meta Bus wrote:
As a newbie hoping to find and share information on building,
maintaining and living with an EV as my main form of transportation, I
also admit to having little interest in electric (or gas) drag racing.
I find myself skipping past the NEDRA/Woodburn posts, searching for
practical advice on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences
of EV-people in a petro-world.
Jim, ever hear the expression 'Can't see the forest for all the trees'?
How about his one...'Racing improves the breed.'? Your comments are
interesting, to say the least. The very posts you admit to bypassing are
written by the guys who probably know more about EVs than most here on
this EVDL. They are the ones that design and build the chargers,
controllers, etc. that people like you, will most likely be using in
your EV.
Rich Rudman, an electric drag racer and writer of these posts you skip
by, makes the battery regulators and PFC chargers that have helped shape
most of the conversions you're interested in. If it weren't for electric
drag racing, there would be no PFC chargers....Rich learned from the
stresses of needing to efficiently and quickly charge hungry drag EVs at
the track, that the EV community needed an affordable, quality, high
powered charger. We were flipping our generators' breakers and blowing
line breakers, too, at the track, when a light went off in Rich's head
about charger inefficiency.
Rod Wilde, a drag racer who holds impressive records, is president of
NEDRA, and is the operator of EV Parts where may go to get EV conversion
hardware, is another who you are skipping by...he's been involved in too
many EV conversions to list. His racing reports and the successes and
failures of components at the track, are items you are missing out on.
Otmar Ebenhoech, owner of Cafe Electric and designer-builder of arguably
the finest DC motor controller one can buy, is also an electric drag
racer and proves his designs first, at the drag track...you've bypassed
him, too. If it weren't for electric drag racing, there probably would
be no Zilla line of controllers. The first Otmar higher powered
controller found its way into Rod Wilde's RX7 racer back in '94. The
first ever Godzilla was under the hood of White Zombie in '97, and was
even named by yours truly after its monstrous performance.
Jim Husted of Hi Torque Electric, a new guy here himself, is turning out
to be 'the guy' when it comes to the electric motors we all use in our
EVs....you're bypassing valuable information he's been writing about
drag racing, too. Wanting to know more about his craft, Jim has wisely
hooked up with the electric drag racers. The lessons learned from the
stresses on electric motors in electric drag racing go directly into
improving street reliability for a conversion, and Jim has already put
some of what he's learned into motors intended for street
conversion...the very stuff 'you' should be very interested in. Of
course, since you've bene skipping the racing posts, you probably have
already missed all the important info about the motor problem we had and
how it's already been diagnosed and repaired.
The newest generation of EVers like the Austin EV group of Mark, Chris,
and Shawn, guys who are the geek experts and know the high tech stuff
you should be concerned about when it comes to the data stream of info
that now runs through most of the latest EV hardwre being made and
offered for conversions, were all at the recent electric drags investing
their time and extensive knowledge....yeah, you missed all their
write-ups, too. You probably missed their links included in their
'racing posts' that lead you to valuable graphs and stats.
I've put together more than 100 EVs, and have contributed to the EVDL
now for 11 years. I have helped in the behind the scenes design and
development of many of the EV products you'll be looking into. It's a
safe bet to say that most of the batteries EVers now use in their
conversions, were tested and improved at the drag track. I was one of
the very first to use Optimas, but tested them at the drag track...now
they're a common everyday conversion battery of choice. Ever hear about
Exide Orbitals? Funny, it was Rudman and my extreme power tests on these
batteries and they're successful use in 'electric drag racing' that
brought them to the foreground for conversion use.
All the above electric drag racers (with exception to Jim Husted -
currently preparing his first EV...read his latest post) also drive EVs
off the track, too. All the above had built these EVs themselves and
have helped countless others do the same. Many of the above have been
involved and helped put on EV shows, been in video productions, and have
been in magazine write-ups.
Jim, I have to say that reading your post really lit me up. You've got
the movers and shakers of the EV world freely sharing valuable lessons
of how all the things you should be interested in work, hold up, get
improved, and get to the market place for guys like you.....and you then
say that you skip past their posts in your search for practical advice
on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences of EV-people?
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My latest finding is that AGMs are *really* unhappy when they are
charged at high voltage, so don't take the specs for granted that say
that you can cycle-charge the batteries up to 15V because you will
be killing them off by internal gassing in a few charges.
Set your battery management to charge the AGM to the *lowest* recommended
charge voltage and you will have happy AGMs.
It's been my experience (Hawkers, 300v pack, 2 strings, 26ah batteries)
that what kills AGMs is twofold:
1) high voltage at high currents, and
2) Undercharging.
Back on my last pack in the Prizm, I was charging full blast (20a rate)
to 375 volts, then backing the charge down to 390 volts (15.0vpb to
15.7vpb). This resulted in the pack getting rather dry after about 4,000
miles. You can tell this because the batteries become more and more
"stiff". IE: You can pull 100+amps out of a 26amp battery and not have
the voltage fall below 12 volts. That's way too stiff :-) Then the range
falls like rock.
In this pack I have modified things a bit. I charge the batteries at
full current (in this case 12a because I'm a coward. Tough) to 14 volts
per battery (vpb). Then I hold that voltage and let the current taper
down to about 2amps. This allows the laggard batteries to get up in
charge without popping the more fully charged ones past the 14.7 volt
point where the start to gas.
Once the string is at 14 vpb, I do a constant current charge of 2 amps
to 15.0 vpb. The reason for this is to take the batteries to the point
where they are "full" at a current rate that is below the internal
recombiner rates. This keeps gassing to a minimum. And going 15 gives a
bit of extra voltage to help equalize things out.
Once the pack gets to 15vpb, I hold it there for 10 minutes to make sure
it's all evened out.
The result is a pack that winds up at between +0ah and +.1ah charged at
the end using a CEF of 98% and an E-meter for temp compensation. +0ah on
the shorter runs, +.1ah on the longer runs.
Every month or two I plug the car in and let it charge using the Dolphin
to +390 volts on the pack. This results in maybe .1 to .2ah on the clock
at the end, which tells me the pack is probably in balance. No need to
do this more often; it just wastes water.
If you charge AGMs at a current rate over the recombiner rate (my case
2a) at a voltage above the gassing rate (my case 14.7v) you will have
serious gassing. So in a way my charge profile uses the battery
recombiners as a sort of regulator by limiting the charge current at the
end to a level below which the recombiners can handle.
Caveats: My pack is not tapped anywhere, it's two strings of 25 joined
at the ends, the interconnects are symmetrically balanced to a T, and I
use time limits and temp sensors to abort charging if things go bad. I
am current limited at the controller to about 220 amp max draw at 300
volts. I never take it below 28ah down on a 52ah pack because 52ah
really means 40ah at the 1C rate which really means 32ah to 80% and I
like to have a little margin. I also don't charge if the battery temp at
the posts is above 40c; I just wait for an hour or two to cool down a
bit. My latest pack is 1 year old, has 3,000 miles on it and seems to be
running well. Time will tell.
Chris
Any series string will always get out of balance, sooner or later.
Some batteries are forgiving, AGMs are not. Make sure you monitor
and balance each battery and your pack will last.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Congratulations, Eric
I was the only other bidder. I was just looking for spares, so I didn't bid
very high.
Here's a suggestion about getting " sniped". Just bid the maximum you are
willing to pay for the item(and, bid early). Then, you can't complain if
someone else is willing to pay more than you are - no matter when they place
their bid.
Phil Marino
Echo in progress
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Managed to pick up a Kilovac EV250-2A (Czonka II) and a Kilovac EV200AAANA
(Czonka III) on ebay. $90 for both, including shipping. Both are new,
12V coil, with economizers.
After getting sniped on a lot of 10 Vicor 150 to 12VDC 200W power supplies,
it was nice to get a good deal. I'm pretty stoked. The EV250 alone
retails for $300+
_________________________________________________________________
Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>While few electric dragsters can exceed 100 mph, the faster ICE racers can
exceed 300 mph.
Umm.. Those aren't cars. They are purpose built dragsters. There's no reason we
can't build a 5 second 300mph electric either. Give me sponsorship and I'll
have it ready for the 2006 Vegas opener.
Door slammers at my local track rarely exceed 110mph, the fastest ones are
right around 140.
Stay Charged!
Hump
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
set ev mail
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Doug,
Please let us know what time you'll be on as I will be in my garage working
on my EV it would be great to hear an EV discussion on the radio at the same
time. I'm definitely going to post information on my website.
regards,
Stefano
On 9/8/05, Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Jerry & All,
>
> > Is it broadcast on the web?
> I have found this to connect up on the web
> http://www.cbc.ca/listen/index.html#
>
> - select "2"/Montreal
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Doug
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "jerry dycus" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 8:16 PM
> Subject: Re: EV pulbicity Re: Montreal Gazette article today, Sept. 6
>
>
> > Hi Doug and All,
> >
> >
> > Doug Hartley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Hi Jerry, Noel, and all,
> >
> > Thanks for your encouragement!
> >
> > I was called today to come into the CBC studio Saturday morning to be
> > interviewed for CBC Radio One, All in the Weekend program. It should be
> > another opportunity to spread the word some more.
> >
> >
> > Cool, take some more website URLs like Plasmaboy's, ect so they
> > can put them up on their website and talk about John's and Berbe's?
> > Current Eliminator dragster to help dispell the notions EV must be
> slow..
> > That with your dispelling they are short range takes away their excuses
> > against EV's.
> >
> > Talk about small engined battery dominated hybrids would be good
> > too.
> >
> > Is it broadcast on the web?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Jerry Dycus
> >
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Doug
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I think this is what you are looking for.
Here is a link to the technical specs for the Odyssey batteries. It has
a matrix showing the discharge characteristics of all their batteries at
different rates.
http://www.odysseyfactory.com/documents/odybr101.pdf
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Jay Brown
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Barber
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 9:36 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: High current draw AGM battery capacity
I have seen John Wayland post many times that AGM batteries have higher
capacity at high current draws than floodeds. I'm looking at the Hawker
Odysseys at this link
http://www.portablepower.com/products/slabatteries/Odyssey.asp
and I'm wondering what the capacity one could expect out of them when
making
electric vehicle type current draws from them. I'm thinking this would
be
sustained draws of 50A or so with a nominal pack voltage of 240V at
45mph
(assuming 250 watt hours per mile), with 1000A draws from stops, and a
few
hundred amps into the pack with regen braking to a stop.
I know Optima yellow tops are used frequently for people who want an AGM
battery in their EV. What is the rated capacity (Ah) vs experienced
capacity for all you AGM users out there?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lots of good points there John. I bet Mr "skip past the drag racing" never read
it though. You should have disguised your email as "helpful advice for
batteries and motors" !!!
Its fair to say the subject headings do influence browsing when there are 100s
of items to look through!
Keep up the good work John
Steve
John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello to All, but especially Jim,
Meta Bus wrote:
> As a newbie hoping to find and share information on building,
> maintaining and living with an EV as my main form of transportation, I
> also admit to having little interest in electric (or gas) drag racing.
>
> I find myself skipping past the NEDRA/Woodburn posts, searching for
> practical advice on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences
> of EV-people in a petro-world.
Jim, ever hear the expression 'Can't see the forest for all the trees'?
How about his one...'Racing improves the breed.'? Your comments are
interesting, to say the least. The very posts you admit to bypassing are
written by the guys who probably know more about EVs than most here on
this EVDL. They are the ones that design and build the chargers,
controllers, etc. that people like you, will most likely be using in
your EV.
Rich Rudman, an electric drag racer and writer of these posts you skip
by, makes the battery regulators and PFC chargers that have helped shape
most of the conversions you're interested in. If it weren't for electric
drag racing, there would be no PFC chargers....Rich learned from the
stresses of needing to efficiently and quickly charge hungry drag EVs at
the track, that the EV community needed an affordable, quality, high
powered charger. We were flipping our generators' breakers and blowing
line breakers, too, at the track, when a light went off in Rich's head
about charger inefficiency.
Rod Wilde, a drag racer who holds impressive records, is president of
NEDRA, and is the operator of EV Parts where may go to get EV conversion
hardware, is another who you are skipping by...he's been involved in too
many EV conversions to list. His racing reports and the successes and
failures of components at the track, are items you are missing out on.
Otmar Ebenhoech, owner of Cafe Electric and designer-builder of arguably
the finest DC motor controller one can buy, is also an electric drag
racer and proves his designs first, at the drag track...you've bypassed
him, too. If it weren't for electric drag racing, there probably would
be no Zilla line of controllers. The first Otmar higher powered
controller found its way into Rod Wilde's RX7 racer back in '94. The
first ever Godzilla was under the hood of White Zombie in '97, and was
even named by yours truly after its monstrous performance.
Jim Husted of Hi Torque Electric, a new guy here himself, is turning out
to be 'the guy' when it comes to the electric motors we all use in our
EVs....you're bypassing valuable information he's been writing about
drag racing, too. Wanting to know more about his craft, Jim has wisely
hooked up with the electric drag racers. The lessons learned from the
stresses on electric motors in electric drag racing go directly into
improving street reliability for a conversion, and Jim has already put
some of what he's learned into motors intended for street
conversion...the very stuff 'you' should be very interested in. Of
course, since you've bene skipping the racing posts, you probably have
already missed all the important info about the motor problem we had and
how it's already been diagnosed and repaired.
The newest generation of EVers like the Austin EV group of Mark, Chris,
and Shawn, guys who are the geek experts and know the high tech stuff
you should be concerned about when it comes to the data stream of info
that now runs through most of the latest EV hardwre being made and
offered for conversions, were all at the recent electric drags investing
their time and extensive knowledge....yeah, you missed all their
write-ups, too. You probably missed their links included in their
'racing posts' that lead you to valuable graphs and stats.
I've put together more than 100 EVs, and have contributed to the EVDL
now for 11 years. I have helped in the behind the scenes design and
development of many of the EV products you'll be looking into. It's a
safe bet to say that most of the batteries EVers now use in their
conversions, were tested and improved at the drag track. I was one of
the very first to use Optimas, but tested them at the drag track...now
they're a common everyday conversion battery of choice. Ever hear about
Exide Orbitals? Funny, it was Rudman and my extreme power tests on these
batteries and they're successful use in 'electric drag racing' that
brought them to the foreground for conversion use.
All the above electric drag racers (with exception to Jim Husted -
currently preparing his first EV...read his latest post) also drive EVs
off the track, too. All the above had built these EVs themselves and
have helped countless others do the same. Many of the above have been
involved and helped put on EV shows, been in video productions, and have
been in magazine write-ups.
Jim, I have to say that reading your post really lit me up. You've got
the movers and shakers of the EV world freely sharing valuable lessons
of how all the things you should be interested in work, hold up, get
improved, and get to the market place for guys like you.....and you then
say that you skip past their posts in your search for practical advice
on batteries, motors, and the real-world experiences of EV-people?
See Ya...John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Close, except for one thing:
If someone is using sniping software, you are doomed to whatever their max
price is. If you bid early, you will only cause the auction price to creep
up, good for the seller, but not good for you. Best way to defeat sniping
is to either use sniping software or bid your max amount within the last 5
seconds of the auction. This way the bid will not creep up, potentially
causing a bid frenzy.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Philip Marino
Sent: September 9, 2005 8:02 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: Kilovac score on Ebay (and sniping)
Congratulations, Eric
I was the only other bidder. I was just looking for spares, so I didn't bid
very high.
Here's a suggestion about getting " sniped". Just bid the maximum you are
willing to pay for the item(and, bid early). Then, you can't complain if
someone else is willing to pay more than you are - no matter when they place
their bid.
Phil Marino
Echo in progress
>From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Managed to pick up a Kilovac EV250-2A (Czonka II) and a Kilovac EV200AAANA
>(Czonka III) on ebay. $90 for both, including shipping. Both are new,
>12V coil, with economizers.
>
>After getting sniped on a lot of 10 Vicor 150 to 12VDC 200W power
>supplies, it was nice to get a good deal. I'm pretty stoked. The
>EV250 alone retails for $300+
>
_________________________________________________________________
Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search!
http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
