EV Digest 4694
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by mreish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: White Zombie - '74 Nova V8 Drag Car Comparison
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
by ROBERT RICE <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
by "Tim Stephenson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Zilla cooling.
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Zilla cooling.
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: 9" motor mount for 1980 Rabbit.
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: What charger to use?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Zilla Cooling
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: What charger to use?
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Rich, Goldie, and motor mods
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: An Enemy of my Enemy
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Siemans motors
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) CE update, Speedworld 09-09
by "David Chapman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Title: Re: electric motorcycle
performance
given current readily available
technology, what's the approximate
performance potential (top speed, power,
weight) of a motorcycle set
up specifically for
roadracing?
Do you want to road race competitively or
just play?
Let's hope George just wants to play. I cannot see any technology
any time soon that would make an electric motorcycle competitive with
an ICE on a road course.
I get a charge out of watching the drag racers blow off the
Vipers and the Vettes. Now imagine riding like that for not just
1/4 of a mile but for 10 laps around a 2 mile road course with hills,
off camber and blind turns the whole time with three or four other
guys literally rubbing elbows. I still have tire marks on my
leathers.
I just don't see how an electric could hang.
Man, I wish I had the money to go racing again!
"Road racing makes
heroin addiction look like a vague wish for something salty."-
Peter Eagan
Mike
--
The Electric Motorcycle Portal
http://www.electricmotorcycles.net/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You ought to talk to the guy running the 50K + Pro Gas car that Dennis
absolutely dominated @ Speedworld last night. I made the mistake of pointing
out that he could be more competitive if he considered moving over to an EV
(well ok thats not EXACTLY the way I phrased it, LOL) and he got so
emotional that he offered to chase me down in the pits and kick my butt.
Frankly I wasn't so worried about him but his wife was awefully big and
equally pissed about seeing the car they built instead of a down payment on
a house getting tromped. In total silence. Glad I wasn't him last night when
she got him home.
David Chapman.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:53 AM
Subject: White Zombie - '74 Nova V8 Drag Car Comparison
Hello to All,
I had an interesting conversation today with one of those folks that Tom
Shay says isn't interested in electric drag racing. He was just one of my
many customers on my forklift service route, an average guy working in a
warehouse. In the past we've had a few short conversations about my
electric car addiction, and he's always been 'interested' but not over
enthusiastic...until today, that is. I had told him the results of our
weekend's racing efforts, and reported that the car had run a mid
12....his eyes got big. He then asked, "What was your 1/8th mile like?" I
told him our best 1/8 mile portion was a 7.917 @ 85 some-odd mph, and also
told him one run had us approaching 87 mph (86.57) in the 1/8 mile....his
eyes got a bit larger. That's when he surprised me when he told me that he
too, was a drag racer. That's also when he gave me some very interesting
info on his '74 Chevy Nova drag car. He went on to tell me that his
'thing' was 1/8 mile drags, not the usual full 1/4 mile as is mine, and he
said he'd tuned his machine to haul ass especially in the 1/8 mile....his
best time ever, was a 7.92.
Here's a short list of his muscle car's specs:
383 cid 'stroker' Chevy V8
Edelbrock Torquer intake
Edelbrock 650 cfm 4 barrel carb
Headers, big cam, and exhaust
2500 rpm stall converter
B&M 3 stage shift kit
Mickey Thompson wrinkle wall drag slicks
Food for thought.....White Zombie does almost exactly the same time with
its 7.917 vs the Nova's 7.920, but does so running with street legal drag
radials against the Nova fitted with the real deal, full race wrinkle wall
drag slicks. Contrary to what Tom says, "... electric cars are slugs
compared to ICE drag racers."....this guy who had built up a fast Nova,
was absolutely blown away with what my electric car had done. He plans on
bringing a group of his friends down to PIR next Friday night to watch us
run against the gasser boys.
From Rod Hower:
John and Jim Husted have engineered
their own electric drive system to crank out 12.65 1/4
mile times. That is impressive and very unique, and
the fans at the drag track recognize this vehicle....You may call 12.65
in the 1/4 boring, but the engineering and time to
create such a unique vehicle is much more impressive
than a 9 second alcohol dragster that can be created
with off the shelf parts.
Thanks Rod, I appreciate this. My friend Gene, who I met in the Fall of
'03 at the track and who has the low 11 second Nova I've written about
from time to time, feels the same way as you do. He gets it. We saw him a
few weekends ago when we raced the Silver Bullet Z Car, and as usuual, it
was great getting to talk with him again. Gene doesn't know about our
recent mid 12 second run or our sub 8 second 1/8 mile times, but I'll bet
that once he finds out, he'll be running around telling everyone about it.
Here's guy with a far quicker car than mine, yet because it's the
unexpected.... 'an electric car'... that performs way outside the
perceived norm, it's super cool.
Change of subject.....I just got off the phone with Tim Brehm, and he had
me freeze the launch segment of the 104 mph run I've got posted at:
http://plasmaboyracing.com
Folowing the burnout and just before the car takes off, if you pause the
movie, then step the launch s-l-o-w-l-y frame by frame, you can see two
very telling things....one, is the way the drag radials wrinkle pretty
severely at the point of first bite. These aren't wrinkle wall tires, so I
was a bit surprised to see them do this... and two, the way the rear axle
winds up on the leaf springs to where there's too much fore and aft
movement of the entire rear axle to my liking. I'd already planned on
lengthening the traction bars to make their ends match up farther ahead
right at the leaf spring pivot instead of their present contact point
that's about 3 inches behind the pivot (that allow too much spring wind
up). Now, after watching the crazy axle travel, I 'have' to make this mod!
Additionally, Tim and I both experienced the front spings dropping away
from their normal tucked-in postion with the front strut cups due to the
way the front end pops up so far....we'll be fixing this problem, too. The
rear end traction bar mods and front end spring control mods will go a
long ways towards helping the car get out of the hole even better, and
might be good for another 1/10 - 2/10 of second off that mid 12 ET,
perhaps putting the car in the 12.3 second range? With better traction, we
can turn up the Zilla a bit more in the series mode and maybe shave off
another 2/10 -3/10 getting the car awfully close to the high 11s!
Interesting stat from Sunday's racing....With the exception of the very
first run Tim had ever made down a 1/4 mile track, White Zombie was 5 for
6 at going 100 mph and more in the 1/4 mile. It's also fun to note that
Tim just 'had' to make a statement with his perfect 100.00 mph that put
him into the 100 mph club! In chronological order of the day:
96.47, 100.00, 102.43, 103.53, 103.92, 104.14
It's interesting to watch the speed go up as the batteries both warm up
and get better broken in. After struggling to crack 100 mph in the quarter
mile last year, 100+ speeds are now the norm for the car, so I guess we've
made some progress :-)
Stay tuned for this coming Wednesday's 1/8 mile runs, and for the
following Friday's drag racing results (weather permitting)...
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
'We blow things up, so you don't have to'
http://plasmaboyracing.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:27:17 -0700, Lightning Ryan
wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>> given a megabuck, oh heck, let's make it unlimited funds, tell me in
>> general terms how you'd achieve 300 mph in the quarter with an EV.
>
WHO SEZ THAT YOU CAN'T WIRE THE TRACK WITH CATENERY??NHRA, NEDRA?
If yur spending all those bux, just go to the grid or leave the monster
battery pack at the end of the track.Only a quarter mile do ya need, you run
outta wire at the end, no shutdown problem, anyhow. Works for Seattle an'
transit Vancouver and Amtrak, and EVen the PDX Max<g>!
Seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Or wind a big inductor under the track.
Maglev, anyone?
-Tim
----- Original Message -----
From: "ROBERT RICE" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:33 AM
Subject: Re: 300 MPH Quarter EV Technology-Wiring For
>
>
> Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 01:27:17 -0700, Lightning Ryan
> wrote:
>
> >Neon John wrote:
> >> given a megabuck, oh heck, let's make it unlimited funds, tell me in
> >> general terms how you'd achieve 300 mph in the quarter with an EV.
> >
>
> WHO SEZ THAT YOU CAN'T WIRE THE TRACK WITH CATENERY??NHRA, NEDRA?
>
> If yur spending all those bux, just go to the grid or leave the
monster battery pack at the end of the track.Only a quarter mile do ya need,
you run outta wire at the end, no shutdown problem, anyhow. Works for
Seattle an' transit Vancouver and Amtrak, and EVen the PDX Max<g>!
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.21/96 - Release Date: 9/10/05
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ive been thinking about a motorcycle motor for some time. My brother-in-law
was, just tonight, asking what it would take to build him one. Not sure Id
call it a dream motor but I feel an MNE series Prestolite or Advances version
of it would make a good donor motor. This motor I believe is a 9 inch diameter
motor but is only ½ + the length of what you all know as an ADC 9. The
drawback to this motor is it has only a single brush set up, instead of the
dual brush the larger ones have. This single brush is a little larger than the
A89-012 brush the dual style uses, but not by much. If one wanted to beef the
comm. up you could wind the armature with a longer comm. and install the dual
brush set up to this motor. A larger C.E. plate and shaft would need to be
fitted to complete the upgrade. The dual comm. would increase the brush shunt
capacity and commutation two fold while maintaining a stout but short 10 to 12
inch length.
The motor was originally rated as a 36-volt drive motor with a one-hour duty
cycle. So if you were to say run it the 3 to 4 times the original rating that
seems to be a norm here, I believe these motors would sing. Now lets break
the field coils apart so that they can be run both in series or series parallel
for a possible electric shift like John Wayland, but with only one motor. Now
you set it up with a variable timed brush ring so that you can time it to
optimize the motors to the batteries, load, RPMs of what you want. If the
type of track you are planning for has a lot of turns then the jump you get on
low end might just make up for in loses on the top. Someone posted a need for
8000 Rpms, but if out of the corners you were faster than them just as Wayland
is then maybe 6700 might keep pace, or as in the story of the turtle and the
hare might win.
Father Time is running a pair of these stock ADCs at the tongue-in-cheek
Lazy-Boy race coming up soon. Ill be curious as to how the motors perform and
will be picking his brain as to their output. These motors have a good amount
of copper mass with a nice amount of turns. If you had the room for a pair of
these and batteries to push them I think you would come close to where I think,
you are wishing for. For an average cycle builder these would be ideal. I
think they are around 80 to 90 lbs., not to heavy but real stout.
Wish I could add more details but I havent built one yet, hehehe. As to the
other areas of your post Id do what these guy say : )
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> what type of
batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream"
> setup?
The Kokam Li-Po for your pack or try to get a hold of Compact Power's
cells (out of colorado). Compact Power also has excellent BMS.
A Zilla controller will give you high power control lots of race
parameters to tune and series parallel switching stock, not to mention a
full data set to analyze.
As for motor, I think that a dual ETEK or Lemco setup would give the
best power to weight ratio. Trying to go 100mph on one ETEK is
definitely pushing it. Two is much better and a drag bike named ReVolt
with two ETEKs and a Zilla controller holds a couple of world records
using that setup at 144V (13.634 sec 1/4 mile at 93.81mph) and at 192V
(12.958 sec 1/4 mile at 98.06mph). The ETEK and Lemco motors provide an
outstanding power to weight ratio.
If you want to push around 100mph of course aero is critical as well.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> I was putting away my Aspire parts and I had some washer fluid left in my
> spare washer res. with pump. I tried poring it into the one in the Aspire
> and it didn't work well. Bright idea. I hooked 12v to it and it came out
> like a gusher. I was using a variable power supply and seems like 5v would
> be good for Zilla and other cooling jobs. What do you think?
Fill up the container and run the pump motor until the container
drains and see if the pump gets hot or burns up/fails. I don't think
that particular pump motor was designed to be ran continuously? Maybe
it can though? It might work and might not, try it and see.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I tried a number of 12 volt DC pumps before I finally heeded Otmar's advice
and put in a 120 volt AC pump. I put in a small submersible fountain pump
run by a small inverter. Seems to be working great, now that I have done it
the way Otmar told me to.
It may take awhile, but you will eventually learn to just do what Otmar
says to do. I have never heard Otmar give a bad piece of advice about EVs.
On other subjects, he may not be quite so infallible. ;^)
At 08:16 PM 9/10/2005, you wrote:
I was putting away my Aspire parts and I had some washer fluid left in my
spare washer res. with pump. I tried poring it into the one in the Aspire
and it didn't work well. Bright idea. I hooked 12v to it and it came out
like a gusher. I was using a variable power supply and seems like 5v
would be good for Zilla and other cooling jobs. What do you think?
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 10, 2005, at 3:28 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
Has anyone mounted a 9" ADC in a Rabbit? Electro Automotive says they
don't offer a motor mount solution for the Big motor. 8" yes. 9" no.
Any solution? If not I'm making my own.
I put a Prestolite in a Rabbit and didn't bother with a motor mount. I
replaced the other 3 mounts with urethane mounts. The controller mount
was about 1/2 inch clear of the bell housing and they never hit. Power
was limited to 20 6v golf cart batteries and a rare DCP450 (about
50hp.) If you are going for alot more power (I'd guess over 100 ft/lbs
of motor torque) this may not be a good idea.
Paul "neon" Gooch
P.S. - some manuals seem to indicate that early gas powered Rabbits
didn't have a motor mount - I've never found one!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you mean "insulated" or "isolated"?
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Michaela Merz
Sent: September 10, 2005 8:51 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: What charger to use?
Don, Rich and all others:
please excude my being clueless. But my first Ev had an uninsulated onboard
charger and I got shocked a few times before I finally decided to disconnect
it.
>From my experience, it is not that easy (especially with floodies) to
avoid any and all unwanted voltage crossovers. I am just concerned that a
non-insulated charger will be not as safe as an insulated version.
mm.
>
> Michaela, I am not sure what charger you use on your EV today, but
> you must
> realize: how can a charger "sense" what make, model and chemistry of
> battery is being used? How to sense the acceptance voltage? The
> current limit?
>
> Every EV is different and will have different battery types and
> voltages and charge currents. **All** chargers must be set-up for the
> EV being used - this includes Rich's PFC, Zivan's, Brusa's etc. On
> your EV did you not have to set up the charge parameters? Or did you
> get the factory to set it up?
>
> Once Rich's PFC has been set-up, it only needs to be turned on - that
> is it.
> So if you drink a dozen beer, you can just come out and throw on the
> switch
> - no fiddling required (BTW Beer does not mix with any kind of car).
> Or your wife or kid can do it - just like turning on the light switch.
> This is the same as Zivan and Brusa.
>
> Keep in mind that Zivan chargers need to be **factory** set up for
> your battery pack. If you ever change your pack, you need to either
> tinker with the guts or send it back to be reset. With the PFC, you
> turn a knob and or a trimmer pot - no factory required. Brusa
> chargers can be set-up with software from your computer.
>
> Not to say that the first gen of the PFC is perfect, and Rich is
> listening to his current customers who have experience with his
> chargers. I know he has an isolation version of the charger and Rich
> and Joe have been looking into temp compensation and (maybe) charger
> turn off at a low current level.
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On Behalf Of Michaela Merz
> Sent: September 10, 2005 7:01 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>
>
>
> Rich:
>
> I don't want to in any way question the capabilities of your charger.
> I am sure it is a great system. But I think I would like to see a
> charger that doesn't need tuning, maybe senses the necessary data
> itself. That maybe has two voltage presets and can be used even in the
> dark (and after a few beers). Your product seems to be perfect for the
> ev tinkerer and I think I would be able to 'handle' it, but I don't
> want to train my spouse or my kid on how to charge the car.
>
> And while it most certainly makes sense to not use transformers, I
> wouldn't mind some losses in order to have an insulated system. And
> why do I need a timer to shut the charger off? Isn't there a way to
> sense the cutoff voltage and turn off by itself (maybe after some time
> to allow for equalization)?
>
> mm.
>
>
>> HunnH?
>>
>> Just plug it in and tune the voltage. That simple.
>> The complete saftey check out is only needed when you think you hurt it.
>>
>> It's a non isolated charger... no transformer. Less losses and a MUCH
>> wider voltage range.
>>
>> The timer is so it shuts off.
>>
>> The Zivan is a single voltage product. Get one for each voltage you
>> need.
>> PFC chargers can be used on all voltage EVs from 12 volts to 450. So
>> yes you have to adjust them for each appliaction.
>>
>> ONE if you can't deal with a voltage meter on your EV and read the
>> voltage as you are tuning the charger...maybe you need to stick to
>> plug and play chargers.
>>
>> Two....a jewlers screw driver and a DVM and about 30 seconds of
>> time... is cheap compared to 2 complete chargers.
>>
>> And I am going to have Joe NUKE The instructions that take you all
>> through the "Precharge" nightmare, it's totally over kill safety.
>>
>> You will find that Zivan Plug and play chargers work just that way.
>> Life is good until the battery string dies early and you have no clue
>> why.
>> All packs need some adjustments for age and weather changes. Assuming
>> all the varibles are engineered out is rather foolish.
>>
>> Also the reason you are looking for a new charger is one primary
>> reason I am in business. Zivans fail often and have a rather limited
>> feature set.
>>
>> Rich Rudman
>> Manzanita Micro
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <[email protected]>
>> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:49 PM
>> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>
>>
>>>
>>> Hello Rich and others:
>>>
>>> Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in
>>> regard to your charger and my old Zivan:
>>>
>>> I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound
>>> a little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand
>>> that this is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an
>>> amp-meter, solder some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is
>>> has a chassis ground.
>>> And
>>> - why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
>>>
>>> My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the
>>> batteries are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to
>>> tune.
>>>
>>> After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
>>> position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the
>>> tuning again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2
>>> revolutions to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
>>>
>>> Confused ...
>>>
>>> mm.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
>>> > Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
>>> >
>>> > Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
>>> > I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting
>>> > for
>> new
>>> > sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
>>> >
>>> > All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple
>>> > Mods
>>> let
>>> > them run off of DC also.
>>> >
>>> > A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY
>>> recomend
>>> > the
>>> > Buck option).
>>> > This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these
>>> > voltage levels.
>>> >
>>> > Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it.
>> check
>>> > your results about every 4 months.
>>> > The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to
>>> > 450
>> volts
>>> > output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line
>> current.
>>> >
>>> > Rich Rudman
>>> > Manzanita Micro
>>> >
>>> >
>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>> > From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> > To: <[email protected]>
>>> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
>>> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>> >
>>> >
>>> >>
>>> >> Hey John and others:
>>> >>
>>> >> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>>> >> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V
>>> >> >>system,
>> the
>>> >> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able
>>> >> >>to provide both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and
>>> >> >>provide fully
>>> automatic
>>> >> >>charging ('fire and forget').
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>>> >> >
>>> >> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>>> >>
>>> >> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be
>>> >> run off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a
>>> >> worst case
>>> >> scenario) adjusted ?
>>> >>
>>> >> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan
>>> >> just died I need my car back :)
>>> >>
>>> >> mm.
>>> >>
>>> >
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence and Everyone,
Lawrence wrote:
I was putting away my Aspire parts and I had some washer fluid left in
my spare washer res. with pump. I tried poring it into the one in the
Aspire and it didn't work well. Bright idea. I hooked 12v to it and
it came out like a gusher. I was using a variable power supply and
seems like 5v would be good for Zilla and other cooling jobs. What do
you think?
Lawrence Rhodes
This post hit home. I've been spending the last week trying to find a
good set of cooling products to sell on the EV Source site in the
Top-Line Shop that would work well with Zillas. I've looked at enough
different pumps to make my eyes go buggy. Your idea has crossed my
mind. But I don't think those little washer motors are meant to run
continuously, and I don't think they would meet the flow requirements
(Otmar informs me that 2GPM as listed in the Zilla manual is actually a
bit high - 1/2GPM would suffice in most circumstances). Pumps that are
doing that sort of flow have 3/8" outputs or larger. The small diameter
tubing on the washer motors leads me to think the flow is quite a bit
lower than that.
Clyde Warman found a cool reservoir that comes with the Maxi-Jet pumps.
I'm most likely going to stock this item - will include the reservoir
and pump for around $50. The downside to the Maxi-Jets (aside to their
great benefits of longevity and silent operation) is that they run on
120VAC. So you need a small inverter. Someone mentioned awhile back,
why not just use a 12V bilge pump? Well I bought a Rule bilge pump for
testing. It was quiet, had the flow, but needed to be submersed. No
big deal, right? Well try to find a decent reservoir for a pump this
size that could easily be mounted in your engine compartment. Not easy
(if anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to them). So, I'm going to run
with this Maxi-Jet setup. I'll try to put together something that can
easily be integrated into any design, and that will be very tempting to
those considering their own design due to its low cost. I'm not doing
this pump thing to make money - doing it to augment the Zilla controller
line.
By the way, I was looking into the Swiftech MCP350 pump. I had high
hopes for this pump. Otmar about made me cry when he mentioned his
reservations about this pump. It only has one bearing, and the magnets
keep the other side centered when rotating. Jarring can cause crashing
inside. Server racks don't get much jarring, but EVs do. I guess
others have had luck using this awesome little pump, but it wouldn't be
any fun to ruin a $70 pump in a year of driving.
Keep your eye out for the Zilla cooling section in the Top-Line Shop.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don:
What I mean is that the DC is not in any way connected to
ac/ground/chassis. Sorry if I used the wrong term.
mm.
> Do you mean "insulated" or "isolated"?
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Michaela Merz
> Sent: September 10, 2005 8:51 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: What charger to use?
>
>
> Don, Rich and all others:
>
> please excude my being clueless. But my first Ev had an uninsulated
> onboard
> charger and I got shocked a few times before I finally decided to
> disconnect
> it.
>
>>From my experience, it is not that easy (especially with floodies) to
> avoid any and all unwanted voltage crossovers. I am just concerned that a
> non-insulated charger will be not as safe as an insulated version.
>
> mm.
>
>
>>
>> Michaela, I am not sure what charger you use on your EV today, but
>> you must
>> realize: how can a charger "sense" what make, model and chemistry of
>> battery is being used? How to sense the acceptance voltage? The
>> current limit?
>>
>> Every EV is different and will have different battery types and
>> voltages and charge currents. **All** chargers must be set-up for the
>> EV being used - this includes Rich's PFC, Zivan's, Brusa's etc. On
>> your EV did you not have to set up the charge parameters? Or did you
>> get the factory to set it up?
>>
>> Once Rich's PFC has been set-up, it only needs to be turned on - that
>> is it.
>> So if you drink a dozen beer, you can just come out and throw on the
>> switch
>> - no fiddling required (BTW Beer does not mix with any kind of car).
>> Or your wife or kid can do it - just like turning on the light switch.
>> This is the same as Zivan and Brusa.
>>
>> Keep in mind that Zivan chargers need to be **factory** set up for
>> your battery pack. If you ever change your pack, you need to either
>> tinker with the guts or send it back to be reset. With the PFC, you
>> turn a knob and or a trimmer pot - no factory required. Brusa
>> chargers can be set-up with software from your computer.
>>
>> Not to say that the first gen of the PFC is perfect, and Rich is
>> listening to his current customers who have experience with his
>> chargers. I know he has an isolation version of the charger and Rich
>> and Joe have been looking into temp compensation and (maybe) charger
>> turn off at a low current level.
>>
>>
>> Don
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Victoria, BC, Canada
>>
>> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
>> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> On Behalf Of Michaela Merz
>> Sent: September 10, 2005 7:01 PM
>> To: [email protected]
>> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rich:
>>
>> I don't want to in any way question the capabilities of your charger.
>> I am sure it is a great system. But I think I would like to see a
>> charger that doesn't need tuning, maybe senses the necessary data
>> itself. That maybe has two voltage presets and can be used even in the
>> dark (and after a few beers). Your product seems to be perfect for the
>> ev tinkerer and I think I would be able to 'handle' it, but I don't
>> want to train my spouse or my kid on how to charge the car.
>>
>> And while it most certainly makes sense to not use transformers, I
>> wouldn't mind some losses in order to have an insulated system. And
>> why do I need a timer to shut the charger off? Isn't there a way to
>> sense the cutoff voltage and turn off by itself (maybe after some time
>> to allow for equalization)?
>>
>> mm.
>>
>>
>>> HunnH?
>>>
>>> Just plug it in and tune the voltage. That simple.
>>> The complete saftey check out is only needed when you think you hurt
>>> it.
>>>
>>> It's a non isolated charger... no transformer. Less losses and a MUCH
>>> wider voltage range.
>>>
>>> The timer is so it shuts off.
>>>
>>> The Zivan is a single voltage product. Get one for each voltage you
>>> need.
>>> PFC chargers can be used on all voltage EVs from 12 volts to 450. So
>>> yes you have to adjust them for each appliaction.
>>>
>>> ONE if you can't deal with a voltage meter on your EV and read the
>>> voltage as you are tuning the charger...maybe you need to stick to
>>> plug and play chargers.
>>>
>>> Two....a jewlers screw driver and a DVM and about 30 seconds of
>>> time... is cheap compared to 2 complete chargers.
>>>
>>> And I am going to have Joe NUKE The instructions that take you all
>>> through the "Precharge" nightmare, it's totally over kill safety.
>>>
>>> You will find that Zivan Plug and play chargers work just that way.
>>> Life is good until the battery string dies early and you have no clue
>>> why.
>>> All packs need some adjustments for age and weather changes. Assuming
>>> all the varibles are engineered out is rather foolish.
>>>
>>> Also the reason you are looking for a new charger is one primary
>>> reason I am in business. Zivans fail often and have a rather limited
>>> feature set.
>>>
>>> Rich Rudman
>>> Manzanita Micro
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> To: <[email protected]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 4:49 PM
>>> Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello Rich and others:
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all the information. I still have some questions in
>>>> regard to your charger and my old Zivan:
>>>>
>>>> I read your installation instructions and quite frankly, they sound
>>>> a little complicated. All that tuning and checking .. I understand
>>>> that this is not a bug but a feature. But - I would have to get an
>>>> amp-meter, solder some 110 V lights, rewire the DC port so that is
>>>> has a chassis ground.
>>>> And
>>>> - why is it not insulated? Why do I need a timer?
>>>>
>>>> My Zivan charger worked like that: Plug in and forget. Once the
>>>> batteries are charged, it turns off. Nothing to tweak, nothing to
>>>> tune.
>>>>
>>>> After tuning for car#1 and car#2, how would I be able to 'mark' the
>>>> position of the pots so that I wouldn't have to go through all the
>>>> tuning again for car #1. Count the revolutions of the pot? Kind of 2
>>>> revolutions to the left and 1/2 revolution to the right?
>>>>
>>>> Confused ...
>>>>
>>>> mm.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > I can have a charger in your hands in 5 days, or less.
>>>> > Get me the funds And I will turn a PFC30 in about 12 hours.
>>>> >
>>>> > Getting the funds here takes longer than making one.
>>>> > I can do a 20 or 20B or 30 in less than a day, The 50s are waiting
>>>> > for
>>> new
>>>> > sheet metal, That gets here Monday.
>>>> >
>>>> > All my PFC series chargers can run off of 110 to 240 AC. simple
>>>> > Mods
>>>> let
>>>> > them run off of DC also.
>>>> >
>>>> > A PFC50B(your appliaction is less than 150 volts ..so I HIGHLY
>>>> recomend
>>>> > the
>>>> > Buck option).
>>>> > This charger can deliver 75 amps of charge current at these
>>>> > voltage levels.
>>>> >
>>>> > Not quite fire and forget. Tune it once, do it right then Forget it.
>>> check
>>>> > your results about every 4 months.
>>>> > The big feature is that you CAN adjust my chargers....From 12 to
>>>> > 450
>>> volts
>>>> > output. The power levels adjust from Zero to full advertised line
>>> current.
>>>> >
>>>> > Rich Rudman
>>>> > Manzanita Micro
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> > ----- Original Message -----
>>>> > From: "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>> > To: <[email protected]>
>>>> > Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:25 PM
>>>> > Subject: Re: What charger to use?
>>>> >
>>>> >
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Hey John and others:
>>>> >>
>>>> >> > At 07:09 PM 9/9/2005, Michaela Merz wrote:
>>>> >> >>Question about a charger: I have two EVs, one with a 120 V
>>>> >> >>system,
>>> the
>>>> >> >>other with 132 V. I am looking for a charger that would be able
>>>> >> >>to provide both voltages, run off 110 and 220 Volts and
>>>> >> >>provide fully
>>>> automatic
>>>> >> >>charging ('fire and forget').
>>>> >> >>
>>>> >> >>What system would the list suggest and where to get it?
>>>> >> >
>>>> >> > http://www.manzanitamicro.com
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Thank you. From what I understand, the PFC-50 would be able to be
>>>> >> run off a 110 V 'normal' outlet with its throttle (kind of a
>>>> >> worst case
>>>> >> scenario) adjusted ?
>>>> >>
>>>> >> Anybody here able (willing?) to sell me a charger asap (my Zivan
>>>> >> just died I need my car back :)
>>>> >>
>>>> >> mm.
>>>> >>
>>>> >
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I in fact, am shipping him a mod'ed item of his design out monday. I'm sure
that when he has completed his (I have ways of making you talk) testing and is
satisfied, will post a report. Untill then it's shhh, shhhhh so don't tell him
I said anything. Oh and by the way, I'll be seeking his advise, as well as
the other main members here as to how best get all the juice out of these
motors we can.
Just couldnt stand to let you worry about Goldie, and or Rich. Okay so we all
worry about Rich, but, hopefully this helps ; P
Just a little secret FYI, oh damn did that go to the list?
Hey Rich let me know when you get it
CYA
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Rich Rudman wrote:
> I suspect that I could be over 80 mph and in the 16s RIGHT now....In 10 more
> >cycles I expect a 15 mile range, and tire smoke at will.
Get it into the 13's and it would dust nearly any street car.. What
would it take? A bigger motor? A Zilla?
Doesn't Jim have any motors?
Put something stout in it and make that thing a terror! ;)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim, I find your posts on motors quite valuable. I've been
posting here since 2003 and lurking before that, but never
having built a conversion I still consider myself a newbie
to this. I learn something new each day on this list,
especially from those that delve into the technical aspects
of motors, controllers, batteries, ect.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Reverend Gadget wrote:
> I've seen the motors close up and the shaft is hollow.
Aha! Could a new shaft be machined to shrink-fit inside the existing
hollow shaft? This new shaft could accept some kind of "normal" coupler.
Heat the motor in an oven, chill the shaft in dry ice, and push it in
QUICK!
--
The two most common elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity.
-- Harlan Ellison
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was able to shuffle some stuff around and head out to Speedworld to
support and cheer on Dennis and CE last night and I thought I would pass
along what I can remember and decypher from my hastily scrawled notes. Sorry
if some data appears missing or is incorrect and any errors are definately
on my part.
I arrived just as Dennis was making his first run of the night, he turned in
a 12.08 with 100.1 deg batts. 480 battery amps, 880 motor amps. 360V system,
btw. Dennis wanted to get into the 11.99s so he tweaked up the motor amps by
8 amps while the batts were getting a drink.
Run 2 - 12.06, reaction time .018, batts showed 102.6 (after the run)
Dialed in another 8 motor amps and had a soda.
Run 3 - 12.036, reaction time .026, batt temp "soared" to 105.0
Another twiddle on the screw for 8 more motor amps, pee break to get rid of
last soda. Get lane and competitor assignment for next round at the booth.
Change dial in to 11.97 "just in case". Get hit up for $40 for a "Dennis
Kilowatt" brick on the Speedworld "ADRA walk of fame" by a busty gal. Dennis
being the gentleman he is coughed up the $40 bucks. LOL, SUCKER!! I would
like to try this next time I want to redo my driveway but I don't think I
have the "build" for it. This was an interesting honor as you couldn't just
buy a brick, had to be chosen for it on merits and performance, but the
honoree still has to pay for it.
Back to the pits to look at Dennis' charging setup. Very interesting, a
LARGE gutted ICE welder, large variac and what looked like a shop air
circulator fan. Saw it pump 31 amps into the 360 V pack, charged his car in
around 7 minutes. And it charged my Makita drill simultaneously. Dennis said
it will go around 28-30 amps up to 480 volts. Hmm. HMMMMM. Too bad its about
the size of like 20 PFCs.
A couple ICE doorslammer guys came by and were looking at CE and obviously
trying to figure out where the engine was when I let them off the hook and
told them it was totally electric. Then one of them saw Dennis checking the
data log and controller settings with the palm pilot and asked "what that
was for"? I couldn't resist. I told him that electric drag cars were so
simple and trouble free that it was so Dennis could relieve boredom and hone
his reflexes between rounds by playing Donkey Kong on it. When he said
"cool" I almost handed him his sign but instead I quickly laughed and told
him that I was just joking, that while evs are really that simple the palm
pilot was actually the way Dennis could set the cars electronic motor
controller for the next race and view the last runs data. From his glazed
look when he walked away I think he liked my first answer better.
Run 4 - 11.98 on an 11.97 dial in, reaction time .036 (getting tired old man
:-)? )sheesh I wish I was that "slow", I probably couldn't cut a .500 these
days). Totally thrashed the guy he was racing as I posted earlier, Dennis
had him so rattled that not only did he red light by like .001 he broke out
pretty badly as well.
Interesting thing, immediately after this run the battery temp was only
100.4
While we were waiting for the final run against Nick Alejandre for all the
nuggets, some 14-16 second doorslammer turned turtle at half track right
across from CE's pit, landed on its wheels and then headed across the track
and climbed to a stop halfway on top of the track railing and facing the
pits. By the time Dennis and I got to the fence I was kinda chilled as I
knew that from the slower class of the car it probably didn't have much
safety eq and I was just praying that the driver had a decent set of belts
and a good helmet on. He certainly wasn't moving. EMTs were right on it tho
and they got the driver out, he was OK!! Shaken but not stirred I guess. Mad
as heck. Hope it wasn't his dads car, LOL. They had to get it off the
railing with a Ford bucket loader. I told the loader operator to at least
blindfold the driver first! But not too much more damage.
Round 5 - Dennis won the coin toss and took the right hand lane. We knocked
the gravel off the tires (this track is the only NHRA track I have ever seen
that you need mudflaps for) and Dennis belted up, ready to battle for the
hand of the fair maiden and the $100,000 first place money. Ok, it was
actually like 200 bucks and she wasn't thaaat fair, but you understand the
tension. Nick is the current points leader and Dennis is either right behind
him in second or very close behind him in third. I think there are only like
a couple of points seperating the top 3 right now. Anyway Nick pre-staged,
Dennis pre-staged and then staged. Nicks staged light flickered but didn't
light, Dennis looked over and then Nick staged, got the tree and Dennis was
distracted enough that he cut a .193 to Nicks also dismal but better .103 .
Bottom line, CE lost with a 11.999 on a 11.97 dial (112.902 MPH). The race
was essentially decided by the reaction time. Man talk about splitting
hairs. Dennis lost by .033 differance! I had a guy pull this same move on me
once at Pomona years ago (Dennis the gentleman he is doesn't think it was
deliberate, me I do) and I actually thought this was long ruled illegal. All
in all an exciting night for all concerned. BTW Dennis, somehow that last
time slip ended up in MY pocket. Would you care to PURCHASE it? After all a
losing timeslip for CE IS kinda collectable, LOL. Seriously I would advise
anyone in the Phx area that can to make the time, get to Speedworld and
watch CE run for the ADRA crown. Well worth the 10 bucks for a pit pass. And
I know that Dennis is certainly instilling a lot of respect if not fear for
EVs in the ICE racers ranks. I just wish Bob had made it from CA in time to
come with. Bob, wheeeeereee arrreee youuu? Steaks getting mighty cold.
David Chapman
Arizona Electropulsion / Fine-Junque
http://stores.ebay.com/theworldoffinejunque
--- End Message ---
