EV Digest 4696
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Altrax 7245, palm OS porting
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Zilla Cooling
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Firefly and their longer lasting lead-acid battery/Lawn & Garden
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Firefly and their longer lasting lead-acid battery/Lawn & Garden
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Make an Aluminum Flywheel
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Solectria Charger Question
by Ken Olum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Zilla Cooling
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: electric motorcycle performance
by "Jack Knopf" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zilla Cooling
by "Christopher Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AGM battery measured capacity and ordering them for my S10!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
How many millions do you have to spend?
Some of the answers to this question show a distinct lack of thought.
You can't use a fully faired (i.e. streamliner) because, among other
reasons, they aren't legal in racing.
So you'll need to use something similar to current sport bikes. Because
of the poor aerodynamic, they require approx 35-40 hp to maintain 100 mph.
However, if your max power was only 40 hp, then it would take you a long
time to get to 100 mph. So you probably want something closer to 70 hp or
more.
I don't thin any of the suggested motors can produce that much power.
You are probably looking at a motor that weighs close to 100 lbs.
I'm not sure how much a 144V set of Kokums that can produce 600 amps is,
but that's about what you'd need to produce 70 hp. Perhaps a bit higher
voltage.
I'm not sure you can buld the bike within your weight/size limits. LiPol
battereies are light, but they are fairly bulky.
> I very recently got interested in ev, primarily electric motorcycles.
> as with ICE bikes, all I *really* care about is how to make them go
> around racetracks as fast as possible (ie www.roadracerx.com).
>
> I've started educating myself about fast electric vehicles (thanks
> mostly to google, roderick wilde, and this list...so far).
>
> I've got a short question with what I hope will be a long, complicated
> answer!
>
> given current readily available technology, what's the approximate
> performance potential (top speed, power, weight) of a motorcycle set
> up specifically for roadracing?
>
> what type of batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream" setup?
>
> the rolling chassis (no motor or batteries) would weigh 100 lbs or so.
> range would need to be at least 20mi to be practical.
> top speed of 100mph would be nice.
> 350lbs total weight would be nice (but 400 or even 500 would probably
> work)
>
> thanks!
>
>
--
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wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NO, your document didn't pass the EV list file protection, could you send it
directly to me ? i will make it available for direct download from my
webpages.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 8:23 AM
Subject: Altrax 7245, palm OS porting
> HI all,
>
> Has anyone managed to write some c++ program for the palm os to read off
the
> memory values of the alltrax controller. I think i have provided the comm
> spec sheet.
>
> Cheers
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan, Lawrence et al, what about the Bosch pump that Victor sells? 12V, OEM
quality, continuous duty, high quality, very quiet, purpose built. Here
are some others that I was looking at for another project:
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Bohm
Sent: September 10, 2005 10:08 PM
To: EV List
Subject: Re: Zilla Cooling
Hi Lawrence and Everyone,
Lawrence wrote:
> I was putting away my Aspire parts and I had some washer fluid left in
> my spare washer res. with pump. I tried poring it into the one in the
> Aspire and it didn't work well. Bright idea. I hooked 12v to it and
> it came out like a gusher. I was using a variable power supply and
> seems like 5v would be good for Zilla and other cooling jobs. What do
> you think?
> Lawrence Rhodes
This post hit home. I've been spending the last week trying to find a good
set of cooling products to sell on the EV Source site in the Top-Line Shop
that would work well with Zillas. I've looked at enough different pumps to
make my eyes go buggy. Your idea has crossed my mind. But I don't think
those little washer motors are meant to run continuously, and I don't think
they would meet the flow requirements (Otmar informs me that 2GPM as listed
in the Zilla manual is actually a bit high - 1/2GPM would suffice in most
circumstances). Pumps that are doing that sort of flow have 3/8" outputs or
larger. The small diameter tubing on the washer motors leads me to think
the flow is quite a bit lower than that.
Clyde Warman found a cool reservoir that comes with the Maxi-Jet pumps.
I'm most likely going to stock this item - will include the reservoir and
pump for around $50. The downside to the Maxi-Jets (aside to their great
benefits of longevity and silent operation) is that they run on 120VAC. So
you need a small inverter. Someone mentioned awhile back, why not just use
a 12V bilge pump? Well I bought a Rule bilge pump for testing. It was
quiet, had the flow, but needed to be submersed. No big deal, right? Well
try to find a decent reservoir for a pump this size that could easily be
mounted in your engine compartment. Not easy (if anyone has any
suggestions, I'm open to them). So, I'm going to run with this Maxi-Jet
setup. I'll try to put together something that can easily be integrated
into any design, and that will be very tempting to those considering their
own design due to its low cost. I'm not doing this pump thing to make money
- doing it to augment the Zilla controller line.
By the way, I was looking into the Swiftech MCP350 pump. I had high hopes
for this pump. Otmar about made me cry when he mentioned his reservations
about this pump. It only has one bearing, and the magnets keep the other
side centered when rotating. Jarring can cause crashing inside. Server
racks don't get much jarring, but EVs do. I guess others have had luck
using this awesome little pump, but it wouldn't be any fun to ruin a $70
pump in a year of driving.
Keep your eye out for the Zilla cooling section in the Top-Line Shop.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq All at the best
prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html
Firefly has come up here a couple of times, most recently in June,
where the term "snake-oil" came up...
It appears they have updated their site since June, to announce an
investment by Electrolux. Some here will find the Elecrolux focus on
lawn and garden of interest (I'm referring to the lawnmower/etc
(flash?) videos on the Firefly site) - Steve C? - they do seem to have
some pretty good corporate interest and backing (they're a spinoff by
Caterpillar...)
Videos here:
http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy_video/video_library.html
It'd be nice to see a significant improvement to lead-acid, the devil
we know?
Lock
Toronto
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote on Fri Jun 24, 2005:
> While it is a neat advertisement it looks to be snake oil- "Look at
the oportunities and markets this can lead to" And then lots of
pictures and no technical information. Metallic Power did the same
thing. Now they are belly up. Sorry but no product is suggested just
market oportunities and some General's comment.
>
> Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html 1/10 the cost of advanced
batteries.
> Let's hope.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 415-821-3519
And bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 27 Oct 2004:
> EVLN(A longer lasting lead-acid battery)
> [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> --- {EVangel}
> http://week.com/morenews/morenews-read.asp?n=5962 Putting A
> Charge In Development Posted October 14, 2004 4:03pm
>
> The first start-up business under the Peoria NEXT economic
> development project is putting a charge in the world's battery
> market.
>
> Leaders from Firefly Energy Incorporated Thursday revealed their
> research plans for creating a longer lasting lead-acid battery.
>
> Firefly Energy was launched more than a year ago by Caterpillar
> and Peoria NEXT, a program that funds high-tech business
> projects.
>
> But now the company has raised $4 million from investors to
> accelerate their research and move closer to high-tech
> batteries.
>
> FireFly Energy CEO Edward Williams says the problem with current
> lead acid batteries is they don't last long and they easily
> corrode.
>
> The new batteries will replace lead metal with composite,
> enhancing their power and length of use. Williams projects they
> will cost 15 to 20 percent more than original batteries. But he
> says they'll be popular with hybrid cars.
>
> ''We would hope that in vehicles, hybrid electric vehicles and
> all the technology it may very well lower the cost for hybrid
> electric vehicle and make them more available for consumers,''
> said Williams.
>
> Currently the company has 11 employees but by next year, Williams
> says there'll be more than 20.
>
> Area leaders say the company will create opportunities and a
> knowledge based economy and industry.
>
> 18th District Congressman Ray LaHood said, ''Two years from now,
> 5 years from now and 10 years from now when the chapters are
> written on our community, it'll be written about innovation and
> creation and taking smart people and their ideas and using them
> to create new jobs and think outside of the box of our industrial
> base.''
>
> Firefly Energy hopes to market the new batteries within the next
> 3 years.
>
> Its research and innovation design will take place at Illinois
> Central College North campus. But it has partnered with existing
> manufacturers in the area for future production.
>
>
> =====
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> =====
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--- Begin Message ---
- Coal - Acid batteries !!!
So are their any chemists on the list that can explain the difference
between the Lead / Acid reaction and the Coal in a sponge / ?? reaction to
be able to store energy. I would guess they have Patents filed but I
wouldn't know how to see them.
This should allow us to make a decision as to whether the basic science adds
up and we can all look forward to Coal powered EV's in the near future or
whether we can dismiss it and get on with the proven technology we have.
I seem to remember using coal --AKA carbon in my batteries for toys when I
was a littl'un :-)))
Is it a reinvention of the Zinc carbon battery that is rechargeable - I know
in the UK people are recharging Zinc Carbon dry cells (low current) to eke
out the cost of replacements...
Interesting times...........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2005 12:23 PM
Subject: Firefly and their longer lasting lead-acid battery/Lawn & Garden
> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html
>
> Firefly has come up here a couple of times, most recently in June,
> where the term "snake-oil" came up...
>
> It appears they have updated their site since June, to announce an
> investment by Electrolux. Some here will find the Elecrolux focus on
> lawn and garden of interest (I'm referring to the lawnmower/etc
> (flash?) videos on the Firefly site) - Steve C? - they do seem to have
> some pretty good corporate interest and backing (they're a spinoff by
> Caterpillar...)
>
> Videos here:
> http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy_video/video_library.html
>
> It'd be nice to see a significant improvement to lead-acid, the devil
> we know?
>
> Lock
> Toronto
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote on Fri Jun 24, 2005:
> > While it is a neat advertisement it looks to be snake oil- "Look at
> the oportunities and markets this can lead to" And then lots of
> pictures and no technical information. Metallic Power did the same
> thing. Now they are belly up. Sorry but no product is suggested just
> market oportunities and some General's comment.
> >
> > Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:http://www.fireflyenergy.com/ffy.html 1/10 the cost of advanced
> batteries.
> > Let's hope.
> > Lawrence Rhodes
> > Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> > Reedmaker
> > Book 4/5 doubler
> > Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > 415-821-3519
>
> And bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 27 Oct 2004:
> > EVLN(A longer lasting lead-acid battery)
> > [The Internet Electric Vehicle List News. For Public EV
> > informational purposes. Contact publication for reprint rights.]
> > --- {EVangel}
> > http://week.com/morenews/morenews-read.asp?n=5962 Putting A
> > Charge In Development Posted October 14, 2004 4:03pm
> >
> > The first start-up business under the Peoria NEXT economic
> > development project is putting a charge in the world's battery
> > market.
> >
> > Leaders from Firefly Energy Incorporated Thursday revealed their
> > research plans for creating a longer lasting lead-acid battery.
> >
> > Firefly Energy was launched more than a year ago by Caterpillar
> > and Peoria NEXT, a program that funds high-tech business
> > projects.
> >
> > But now the company has raised $4 million from investors to
> > accelerate their research and move closer to high-tech
> > batteries.
> >
> > FireFly Energy CEO Edward Williams says the problem with current
> > lead acid batteries is they don't last long and they easily
> > corrode.
> >
> > The new batteries will replace lead metal with composite,
> > enhancing their power and length of use. Williams projects they
> > will cost 15 to 20 percent more than original batteries. But he
> > says they'll be popular with hybrid cars.
> >
> > ''We would hope that in vehicles, hybrid electric vehicles and
> > all the technology it may very well lower the cost for hybrid
> > electric vehicle and make them more available for consumers,''
> > said Williams.
> >
> > Currently the company has 11 employees but by next year, Williams
> > says there'll be more than 20.
> >
> > Area leaders say the company will create opportunities and a
> > knowledge based economy and industry.
> >
> > 18th District Congressman Ray LaHood said, ''Two years from now,
> > 5 years from now and 10 years from now when the chapters are
> > written on our community, it'll be written about innovation and
> > creation and taking smart people and their ideas and using them
> > to create new jobs and think outside of the box of our industrial
> > base.''
> >
> > Firefly Energy hopes to market the new batteries within the next
> > 3 years.
> >
> > Its research and innovation design will take place at Illinois
> > Central College North campus. But it has partnered with existing
> > manufacturers in the area for future production.
> >
> >
> > =====
> > Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
> >
> > ' ____
> > ~/__|o\__
> > '@----- @'---(=
> > . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> > . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> > . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> > =====
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Make an Aluminum Flywheel
Date: Sun, 11 Sep 2005 01:46:39 +0000
More important than the weight of a flywheel is it's product of
inertia. Go to tilton's site and check out the difference between
product of inertia and weight.
Jeff -You're right - the inertia is generally more important for a flywheel
than the weight.
But, the term you're looking for is " moment of inertia".
The "product of inertia" is a measure of the unbalance of a rotor. You
always ( except for unusual cases, like rotary vibrators) want the product
of inertia (about the axis of rotation) to be zero.
Phil Marino
_________________________________________________________________
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--- Begin Message ---
It's kind of a coincidence that the BC3300/NLG412 works on lower
voltages. The charger is a rectifier and a DC/DC converter that
converts the instantaneous input voltage into whatever is needed on
the output. It is designed to draw current proportional to voltage,
so as to give unit power factor. So if you connect it to 110V it just
thinks that you're on the lower parts of the 220V waveform. So it
charges fine, and won't do your batteries any harm, but it charges at
1/4 the rate that it would at 220V.
It also shortens the life of the charger, for reasons that I think are
not well understood, but doubtless have to do is the fact that this
device was not at all designed for this use.
An entertaining solution to having a 220V source is this
phase-combining unit: http://quick220.com/.
Ken Olum
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You can't use a fully faired (i.e. streamliner) because, among other
reasons, they aren't legal in racing.
Did anyone suggest this?? If they did, I missed it. What I said was that
aero was important. That's all.
So you probably want something closer to 70 hp or more. I don't thin
any of the suggested motors can produce that much power.
Dual Lemco motors can. Dual ETEKs can too, though it is pushing them
quite hard. I've already cited an example.
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just used a remote fill tank that is used on some ICE's that have the radiator
mounted lower than the engine. I am using a GM type that has a pressure cap on
it, a 3/4 inch outlet and a 3/8 inch inlet. It has a over flow line coming off
the cap, but I do not used this because my coolant never gets above 99 degrees.
The Maxi-Jet with its 3/4 inlet is connected right to the 3/4 inch outlet with
a 2 inch length of hose. I ran the 3/8 hose through a transmission or oil
cooler that is place in front of the A/C radiator and electric fan.
A standard 1/2 inch brass drain plug comes off the this oil cooler and install
a Stewart Warner coolant sender on the outlet side. This runs a standard
Stewart Warner Temperature gage.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Bohm<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: EV List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:08 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla Cooling
Hi Lawrence and Everyone,
Lawrence wrote:
> I was putting away my Aspire parts and I had some washer fluid left in
> my spare washer res. with pump. I tried poring it into the one in the
> Aspire and it didn't work well. Bright idea. I hooked 12v to it and
> it came out like a gusher. I was using a variable power supply and
> seems like 5v would be good for Zilla and other cooling jobs. What do
> you think?
> Lawrence Rhodes
This post hit home. I've been spending the last week trying to find a
good set of cooling products to sell on the EV Source site in the
Top-Line Shop that would work well with Zillas. I've looked at enough
different pumps to make my eyes go buggy. Your idea has crossed my
mind. But I don't think those little washer motors are meant to run
continuously, and I don't think they would meet the flow requirements
(Otmar informs me that 2GPM as listed in the Zilla manual is actually a
bit high - 1/2GPM would suffice in most circumstances). Pumps that are
doing that sort of flow have 3/8" outputs or larger. The small diameter
tubing on the washer motors leads me to think the flow is quite a bit
lower than that.
Clyde Warman found a cool reservoir that comes with the Maxi-Jet pumps.
I'm most likely going to stock this item - will include the reservoir
and pump for around $50. The downside to the Maxi-Jets (aside to their
great benefits of longevity and silent operation) is that they run on
120VAC. So you need a small inverter. Someone mentioned awhile back,
why not just use a 12V bilge pump? Well I bought a Rule bilge pump for
testing. It was quiet, had the flow, but needed to be submersed. No
big deal, right? Well try to find a decent reservoir for a pump this
size that could easily be mounted in your engine compartment. Not easy
(if anyone has any suggestions, I'm open to them). So, I'm going to run
with this Maxi-Jet setup. I'll try to put together something that can
easily be integrated into any design, and that will be very tempting to
those considering their own design due to its low cost. I'm not doing
this pump thing to make money - doing it to augment the Zilla controller
line.
By the way, I was looking into the Swiftech MCP350 pump. I had high
hopes for this pump. Otmar about made me cry when he mentioned his
reservations about this pump. It only has one bearing, and the magnets
keep the other side centered when rotating. Jarring can cause crashing
inside. Server racks don't get much jarring, but EVs do. I guess
others have had luck using this awesome little pump, but it wouldn't be
any fun to ruin a $70 pump in a year of driving.
Keep your eye out for the Zilla cooling section in the Top-Line Shop.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com<http://www.evsource.com/>> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim, are you sure that changing the fields within a motor from series to
parallel will work without messing up the magnetic fields? My motor in my 64
Chevelle has dual fields(S1,S2, S3,S4) and I experimented with this a
little when I was bench testing the motor and found that when I went to
parallel the current increased a lot with no rpm change with no load. I do
have field weakening set up from S1 to S4 at the same resistance as S1 to S4
through a contactor and that is awesome. I am just in the test driving
stages of my conversion and am looking for some tricks to try and experiment
with.
Jack.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 11:49 PM
Subject: Re: electric motorcycle performance
I've been thinking about a motorcycle motor for some time. My
brother-in-law was, just tonight, asking what it would take to build him
one. Not sure I'd call it a dream motor but I feel an MNE series
Prestolite or Advance's version of it would make a good donor motor. This
motor I believe is a 9 inch diameter motor but is only ½ + the length of
what you all know as an ADC 9". The drawback to this motor is it has only
a single brush set up, instead of the dual brush the larger ones have.
This single brush is a little larger than the A89-012 brush the dual style
uses, but not by much. If one wanted to beef the comm. up you could wind
the armature with a longer comm. and install the dual brush set up to this
motor. A larger C.E. plate and shaft would need to be fitted to complete
the upgrade. The dual comm. would increase the brush shunt capacity and
commutation two fold while maintaining a stout but short 10 to 12 inch
length.
The motor was originally rated as a 36-volt drive motor with a one-hour
duty cycle. So if you were to say run it the 3 to 4 times the original
rating that seems to be a norm here, I believe these motors would sing.
Now let's break the field coils apart so that they can be run both in
series or series parallel for a possible electric shift like John Wayland,
but with only one motor. Now you set it up with a variable timed brush
ring so that you can time it to optimize the motors to the batteries,
load, RPM's of what you want. If the type of track you are planning for
has a lot of turns then the jump you get on low end might just make up for
in loses on the top. Someone posted a need for 8000 Rpm's, but if out of
the corners you were faster than them just as Wayland is then maybe 6700
might keep pace, or as in the story of the turtle and the hare might win.
Father Time is running a pair of these stock ADC's at the tongue-in-cheek
Lazy-Boy race coming up soon. I'll be curious as to how the motors
perform and will be picking his brain as to their output. These motors
have a good amount of copper mass with a nice amount of turns. If you had
the room for a pair of these and batteries to push them I think you would
come close to where I think, you are wishing for. For an average cycle
builder these would be ideal. I think they are around 80 to 90 lbs., not
to heavy but real stout.
Wish I could add more details but I haven't built one yet, hehehe. As to
the other areas of your post I'd do what these guy say : )
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> what type of
batteries/motor/controller/etc would be the "dream"
setup?
The Kokam Li-Po for your pack or try to get a hold of Compact Power's
cells (out of colorado). Compact Power also has excellent BMS.
A Zilla controller will give you high power control lots of race
parameters to tune and series parallel switching stock, not to mention a
full data set to analyze.
As for motor, I think that a dual ETEK or Lemco setup would give the
best power to weight ratio. Trying to go 100mph on one ETEK is
definitely pushing it. Two is much better and a drag bike named ReVolt
with two ETEKs and a Zilla controller holds a couple of world records
using that setup at 144V (13.634 sec 1/4 mile at 93.81mph) and at 192V
(12.958 sec 1/4 mile at 98.06mph). The ETEK and Lemco motors provide an
outstanding power to weight ratio.
If you want to push around 100mph of course aero is critical as well.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
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--- Begin Message ---
The next quest, is to run a EV across the country. Running at highway speeds
and charging at the same range of ICE's. This has already been done by some
proto type EV's.
The next step, which is now being work on, is to run a EV completely across the
country on one charge.
My first EV which was call TRANSFORMER I, was tested in Detroit to prove that a
EV can travel 1000 miles in one day.
On several road courses and around a test track, this EV ran 1056 miles in 24
hours with stops that range from 90 miles to 40 miles to charge the 300 AH
Cobalt Batteries in 20 to 40 minutes to 80 percent. Was allow to discharge to
10 percent.
The motor is a GE Traction motor of 165 volt and 175 amp at 6000 RPM. Has a
service factor of over 4:1 where the motor, controller and batteries can pull
over 600 amps for 6 minutes, before the overloads would trip.
The out board charging system, is something else. It involves a 100 KVA
125/250 VAC 3 phase Delta that runs threw a 900 amp 3 phase rectifiers that
produces 280 VDC at 300 amps. I took a run from the Detroit Airport to the my
Hotel to the EV research center and we plug it into one of these charger
stations. The ampere peak to 300 amps and quickly came down to 150 amps and in
with 10 minutes it was charge to 80 percent.
The uninterested are the ones, who always ask, in this order:
How far will it go?
How fast will it go?
How long does it take to charge?
How much does it cost?
How long does the batteries last?
They get answers like this:
60 miles
60 mph
8 hours or overnight
$10,000 or more
2 to 4 years.
The correct answers should be like this:
The distance depends on your driving needs. If you are only driving 2 miles to
work and back for over 85 percent of your driving, you do not need batteries to
take you over 100 miles.
Its like putting in a 500 hp engine, if you are only used the car for city
driving.
The speed also depends on your driving needs. If you install batteries that
will take you 4 or 10 miles a day, and need only to charge them once a week,
they will last twice the life.
Using the correct battery charger systems that are design for the batteries, it
will charge in less than a hour to 80 percent. For long life its best to
charge to 80 percent under bulk charging and discharge to 50 percent. If I
used 50 ampere-hour batteries, than I could get only one run a day before I
would have to charge. So I am using 260 ampere-hour batteries, so I can get at
least 3 to 4 days of runs down to 50 percent, before I charge.
I have already gone 4 years with my batteries and plan to get another 6 years.
The cost of a EV system, also depends what you driving needs are. If you are
only going 2 miles a day at 25 mph, driving it only in the summer, when its not
raining or snowing, or when its not too cold or too hot, than you can get by
with a small town type EV which could cost between $10,000 to $15,000.
If you need to go at highway speeds at 75 mph and 300 to 400 miles, it can cost
over $100,000.
And Lastly, the length of time the EV will last, which normally they do not
ask. It's is assumed that the EV will last as long as a ICE. The EV
mechanical is built to a heavy-duty, super-reinforced, industrial grade
specifications. At least my is. My EV with very heavy duty RACING
COMPONENTS!!! is still going now for 20 years and I plan to go another 30 years
with it with updates and upgrading.
A friend of mind, a super master mechanic, said if the standard ICE would be
built to at least to the specifications of Semi-Tractors they would last about
500,000 miles. He was told by a factory engineer, ohh we can't have that, we
would not be able to sell as many cars that we do now.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John Westlund<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: No Interest in Electric Drag Racing?
To those who say people are uninterested, hear this:
Yesterday in the Microprocessors lab at my University, I
showed a group of students a video of Wayland's electric
Datsun kicking a red Corvette's ass. There were the usual
few who denied the car could be electric, but there were
others who were outright impressed that a little Datsun
powered by batteries, a box of silicon, and two derivations
of a forklift motor could outright RAPE a Corvette. They
aren't racing fanatics, but they do understand what a 12.6 @
104 mph means. This is the territory of $200,000 exotics
like Lamborghini Murceilagos or Ferrari 575 Maranellos. To
see an electric car with ~$25k in parts(perhaps
significantly less) achieve this is very telling about the
progress this technology has made. To see this on the track
must obviously be more than a casual bemusement, especially
judging from the crowds I hear about that always form around
Wayland's car, and the sheer interest people have in the car
thousands of miles away in a University lab.
Again, these are not hardcore racing fanatics, by no means,
who saw this video. Simply college students sharing my major
that were concerned about high gas prices. After seeing what
this car did, a few are interested in building one now, even
if they may not know where to start.
I talked to a few of my professors, Dr. Roobik Gharabagi,
Dr. Habib Rhamin, and others, and they are extremely
interested in how far electric car technology has
progressed. Seeing microprocessor controllers, series wound
DC motors, and AGM batteries push a 2,000 pound car down the
track faster than a Corvette has them asking about the
numbers: how much power is the controller delivering, how
was a controller that powerful built in such a compact
package for so cheap, how do those batteries take such
repeated abuse and continue to last, how does such a small
motor withstand such unbelievable loads for the duration of
time requested, ect. These are people that work with big
numbers in big areas, like transformers, power plants, ect.
They aren't used to seeing 2,000 amps and 170+ volts in
motors that weigh about 120 pounds each.
Some here may be correct that EVs aren't currently pulling
300 mph in the 1/4 in 4 seconds, or that street EVs aren't
pulling 9 second 1/4 miles at 150 mph. So what? Whether it
is possible or not has little bearing on the interest in the
sport as a whole.
What seems to draw people's interest? Lots of things.
Electric drag racing is an area where new advances are
literally being made each week. The engineers here are very
interested just in how this technology has progressed to the
point it is today, and the fact that even 20 years ago no
one would have ever dreamed of this occuring. They want to
know what parts the car has, how they work, just how many
amps, how many runs the car can make before the batteries
are depleted, whether the motors can handle the abuse
repeatedly with little or no wear, how much they cost, the
processes involved in building the car, ect.
Then there's that portion who like the concept of
challenging current stereotypes or defying current cultural
norms. To see a street legal electric car come so far is an
absolute shock to them. Many accounts on this list have been
thrown about in which individuals who have dumped $20k or
more under the hoods of their gas guzzlers(Or have spent
even more buying a high performance car from the showroom
floor instead of building it) have been embarassed to have
been beaten in a race by an EV that cost about the same as
or even less to build. EVs fit the mold of the 'sleeper'.
People think electric motors are only good for powering golf
carts, and then get spanked when they decide to show off
what their gasser can do that the EV supposedly can't. For
those who's car makes up for certain inadequacies, having
your $80k Dodge Viper get beat by a ~$25k electric Datsun
1200 has got to be even worse than being beaten in a race by
a Yugo. The shock value and the prospect of humiliating
people thus draws in another type who has some interest in
this sport.
Some are interested in the mere fact that it is possible to
build a street EV that can kill Vipers and Corvettes,
repeatedly, for less money than it takes to buy one of those
cars. Sure, you can take a Datsun Z car and shove a V8 into
it for about $10k(or less if careful), but it is basically
another Z car with a V8 shoved in it, a fairly common
modification, especially if you're looking for a bargain.
Nothing wrong with it, but it's still going to cost a lot to
keep fueled and may not even be practical for a daily driver
in some circumstances. To have a Civic do the same, one
might be throwing $20k or more under the hood of their car
and said car might need constant attention if it is also a
daily driver. Many a racer have had their engine go out on
them after a few thousand miles because the air/fuel mixture
was not right or the engne simply could not handle what was
thrown at it or perhaps the turbo charger was running too
lean. You can give someone $10k to build an EV, and if they
choose the right chassis and parts, not only could they get
around the high gas prices with a cheap to operate
vehicle(in the case they care for their batteries and use
regs), but it will also still be able to hold its own
against those $35k+ 'sports cars' that prowl the streets
today. Put $20k into an EV, and now you've got a Corvette
killer competitive in price to build with those riced out
cars, perhaps even cheaper to build, with a comparably lower
operating cost. This may draw a few people in, although one
could argue the work and labor involved in building the EV
is worth quite a chunk of cash.
Some are interested just because they are concerned about
certain political issues pertaining to automobile use and
see the electric vehicle as a step in the right direction.
To see an electric achieve the same performance as a high
performance ICE-powered car gives them hope for both the
present and the future.
Whatever the case may be, this sport has attained so much
interest that its participants can't keep up with all the
attention sometimes garnered upon them by the media, curious
onlookers, others who want to build their own, ect. High
School kids are even getting involved and setting their own
records, and sufficient interest exists that people are
granting them thousands of dollars worth of sponsorship.
Thyere is plenty of interest on the part of various small
businesses and even large battery makers that want to
showcase their product because they know the car will be
observed by the virtue of its rarity and shock value.
Back when drag racing was in its infancy, with the likes of
the Green Monster and other curiousities from the 40s and
50s, there was plenty of interest, but little in the way of
participation. Electric drag racing today is in this state.
Few participants, many onlookers all with questions and
comments.
But no interest in electric drag racing? That's a bunch of
horseshit!
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Bohm said:
> different pumps to make my eyes go buggy. Your idea has crossed my
> mind. But I don't think those little washer motors are meant to run
> continuously, and I don't think they would meet the flow requirements
> (Otmar informs me that 2GPM as listed in the Zilla manual is actually a
> bit high - 1/2GPM would suffice in most circumstances). Pumps that are
> doing that sort of flow have 3/8" outputs or larger. The small diameter
> tubing on the washer motors leads me to think the flow is quite a bit
> lower than that.
>
Ryan, you're right. I bought a window washer pump from an auto parts store
several years ago when I was trying to make an ice water air conditioner
(you know, ice chest full of ice water running through an oil cooler with
fans strapped to it -- hasn't everyone tried this?). Though the packaging
on the pump clearly stated "intermittent duty only" I figured "heck, this
thing's going to be running in ice water, it couldn't possibly overheat".
I put it in a ziplock bag with the leads and tubes sticking out the top,
and hung the bag into the ice water.
The motor ran briskly for about 3 minutes, putting out an impressive flow
for its little 1/8" ports. Then it siezed. I checked the motor afterward,
and it was very hot. The ice water kept it from melting the bag, but
didn't protect the motor.
I don't know what it would have done on 5V, but I doubt it would have
moved enough water to cool a Zilla. (It may not have been, even at 12V). I
ended up using a 12V marine bilge pump, which worked well.
I totally agree with Bill Dube on this one though -- I'll be using a
MaxiJet on my Zilla. We did this with Mark Farver's MR2, and all you can
hear is the water moving.
--chris
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--- Begin Message ---
I thought a flywheel had to be heavy - why have a flywheel at all? I don't
have one; I also don't have a clutch, and don't need one!
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, September 10, 2005 6:36 PM
Subject: Make an Aluminium Flywheel
> Has anyone made an aluminium flywheel for their car? I figure I can lathe
&
> mill 6061 T6 or 2024 T3 to the appropriate shape and then install a
surface
> ring of 1060 high strength carbon steel for a clutch face. The face would
> be held on with high shear load aircraft bolts. Not sure what fastener
> adhesive I would use on the bolts.
>
>
> Thoughts? Comments? (Jerry have you done this before?)
>
>
> Don
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
>
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Tom Shay Said.
People
I talk to seem to already know most of the basics. They know batteries
are heavy, slow to recharge, and won't go very far between charges.
They do know that EVs are quiet and non-polluting. About all that's
left for me to tell them is that EVs are a lot faster than golf carts and
technical details.
I think this is exactly the thing that the race crowd dispells. Certainly
you car doesn't have to be slow or take a long time charging. If you have
enough money you also won't have to not go very far. Maybe you're not the
guy that should be talkiing to people about EV's. Maybe 10 years ago but
not now.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cor and All,
Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi list,
I want to update you all on my progress testing AGM batteries,
in particular two UB121100 (110Ah 12V) under repeated 75A load.
The second battery has just finished its 7th cycle and it took
66 minutes with a 0.16 Ohm load to take it down to 10.5V, after
charging it for 8 hours at max 13A and max 14.1V (lab supply).
Taking the voltage (and thus current) taper-off into account
I see that the battery has provided slightly over its rated 80Ah
at the 1-hour 80A discharge spec.
Thanks for testing these as it will be interesting on how well they
do in an EV.
That is not bad, especially with a guilty conscience as I have,
because in the previous cycle I forgot I was testing and it ran
down to 4V (!) after 100 min of 0.16 Ohm load. Ooops. Don't tell
the guy I borrowed this battery from - I was mightily scared
that I reversed a cell and destroyed the battery, but it came
back all by itself to well over 10V by simply removing the load,
so no cell was permanently reversed and putting the current into
it resulted in the full capacity.
FYI:
The S10 USE has a double battery box that will fit 2x 7+4 of
these batteries on their side, the car is setup for 312V = 26
batteries so I will have 4 more in a box right behind the rear
axle. I will see if the design my friend is making for this box
can be shared on this list, in case others also want to equip a
312V S-10 with these batteries - I have not found a better type
of battery that is maintenance free, has so much usable power
and for this price.
I'm not sure that that would be wise putting them on their sides as
they seem to have weak pressure caps based on their losing capacity.
Also charging them in a string because of this may not be good unless
you have regulators like Madman's to keep them inline with each other and keep
them from gassing to death one at a time.
Try to get them all made on the same day if possible as more likely to
be equal, important in a high voltage string.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
After killing the first battery (well, reducing its capacity by
20Ah) when charging it to 14.9V, I was real careful with the
second battery and took it only up to 14.1V at 25 - 40 deg C
ambient temp to avoid over-charging it. I know I did not under-
charge it because it delivered rated amphours and also because
the charge current became almost independent from the voltage
at the end phase of charging: going from 14.1V to 14.5V for a
few moments only raised the current by less than 1 Amp, going
from 6 to 7A at some point in time.
Anyway - stay charged!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3673 eFAX: +31-84-717-9972
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
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