EV Digest 4718
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Metal cutting saws.. was Plasma Cutter
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: DC-DC for lights only?
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Supplier survey
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: pennsylvania
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
5) RE: Rear wheel recommendations
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Surplus EV motor as used by the evolks guys
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: The importance of tires?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of the
modern world.
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Coax
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Surplus EV motor as used by the evolks guys
by Andrew Sackville-West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Surplus EV motor as used by the evolks guys
by Andrew Sackville-West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: OT Troubles with nuclear, was Re: Practical payback???
by Fortunat Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: NEDRA race location change?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
14) Re: Help with motor rating
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Lithium Battery Users?
by Deven Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: GBP (was: Lithium Battery Users?)
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: NEDRA race location change?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
I have a no-name chop saw that I bought >20 years ago before the
chinese entered the scene. Other than a flimsy sheet metal base, it
works like a champ.
BTW, the blades that Northern sells are OK. Not like a Norton but OK.
The friction blades never seem to work for me. They cut too slowly and
the blades seem to wobble and cut inaccurately.. especially thru angle iron.
I had slighty better success with a bandsaw, but miter cuts can be a
pain even on a horizontal unit.
The TV programs always show people cutting steel with a toothed blade
(sometimes water cooled)... I am not sure what they are using. Wonder
if it works any better.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 08:20:24 -0400, James Jarrett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>I wouldn't personally. If it doesn't burnout immediately, it likely
>will fairly quickly.
Not at all. PWM'ing a low voltage bulb works great. There are
several brands of video/movie lighting that does just that to maintain
an absolutely constant color temperature over the battery's full life.
There's a guy on the net who sells a tiny (about half the size of a
postage stamp) PIC-based PWM board for caving and mining lights for
the same purpose. The board is about $25. I have one in my Petzl
Super Zoom headlamp. Four AAs and a 3 battery bulb work perfectly.
BTW, I talked to him a couple of years ago about making me a
down-converter for the lights on my 36 volt scooter. He told me that
his board could handle up to 8 amps and the voltage without any
problems. Sorry, I can't seem to find the URL, though google probably
can.
>In some states it is against the law for a
>motorcycle or bike to have more than one "main" head light. This is
>supposedly to let the drivers know that it is a motorcycle coming at
>them and not a car "really" far away.
Even though I support the notion, I doubt it, considering all the
OEM's that now put two lights on their bikes. That includes Harley
and at least Kawasaki. I just saw a Kaw go by, as a matter of fact.
I really dislike dual lights for precisely the reason you mentioned.
Before my diabetes was diagnosed, I had a large sugar buildup in my
eyes that resulted in vision similar to what is caused by cataracts.
Blurry vision and haloes around light sources. It made distinguishing
between a bike and a far away car VERY difficult. I can only imagine
what actual cataracts would be like. Having been on the other end,
I'd never put two lights on a bike. Three, maybe but not two.
>
>Personally, I don't understand this. But if it is *not* illegal where
>you are, you could get away with 4 12v bulbs in series. More light than
>you need if you use "big" ones but you could always use smaller ones.
That would work much less reliably than PWM'ing a low voltage bulb.
Whichever bulb has the highest cold resistance will come up first,
taking the brunt of the full battery voltage as the other bulbs come
up relatively leisurely. That's why Christmas tree bulbs have such
short lives. Operated individually on the rated voltage, these bulbs
last almost forever. I use 'em in my neon art and can confidently
glue them in place, knowing that they'll almost never need replacing.
I would run no more than two in series.
>
>One trick I saw a guy here do for his custom build motorcycle is he
>custom made a bell housing out of fiberglass and had the inside
>mirrored. He then put 3-4 (don't remember) superbright 12 bulbs in it
>(like tail light bulbs) and it did a pretty good job.
I sure hope he doesn't drive this thing on the street. Without the
proper lenses, I can only imagine the glare. Ever been behind someone
with a broken tail light lens at night? Made your eyes hurt, didn't
it? Multiply that by 4. No thanks!
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 15 Sep 2005 09:12:51 -0400, Stefano Landi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>Anyone have any experience with the following Supplier
>
>ElectroCraft Systems out of Toronto, Ontario
>
>http://www.interlog.com/~dgv/
>
>I just got a quote from them for a controller, pot box, DC to DC converter
>and a charger. Pretty good prices and would be much better for my
>budget-minded conversion given the exchange rate, shipping, duty and so
>forth. However, before I go that route I'd like to know if anyone has had
>any experience with them?
Nifty, though I wouldn't touch that accelerator pedal pot box. What
kind of prices?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Location: Denver, Colorado. I have my first EV on the road (72 volt of AGMs
stuffed into a Kawasaki Ninja). Designing the next one.
I am not alone. 130 active members in the local EV club (currently
unaffiliated with EAA) made up of commercial sponsors (e.g. 2 large electric
utilities, one battery distributor, solar energy supplier/installer),
individual
hobbyist types (like me) interested in BEVs, HEVs, PHEVs and renewable energy
(NREL is close by), and finally we have a number of political members (e.g.
clean
cities, state representatives, etc.)
What folks outside the state might not know. Two large local cities in
Colorado are big supporters of green technologies, Boulder and Fort Collins.
Want
a little diversion...look at what the New Belgian Brewing Company (famous
locally for Fat Tire beer) is up to at _http://www.newbelgium.com/story.php_
(http://www.newbelgium.com/story.php) and click on the sustainability link.
Did you know there are at least 2 RAV4-EVs located in Colorado? Did you know
that Hybrid Electric Vehicles are selling very well in Colorado? Did you
think that the only EVers were located on the left and right coasts?
Lots of Electrathon racing in Kansas, Colorado, Nebraska, and Iowa.
Side note: the people that ask me the most questions and show the most
enthusiasm about seeing my EV on the road are under 20 or over 45 years old.
Few
preconceived notions, open minds and the wisdom that comes with age.
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council
Boulder, Colorado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stu and All,
Stu or Jan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stu or Jan"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:54 PM
Subject: Rear wheel recommendations
> I want to convert a FWD to a trike. The single rear wheel will have to
> carry twice the load and a bit more if I add batteries in the trunk for a
> hybrid.
This has to be the dumbest thing I have heard recently. Has none of
my posts sunk in? Are you delibrately making statements to see yourself online
or piss people off?
Doing the above will mean it will be so squirrelly you may not even
get out of the driveway.
Repeat after me, Equal weight on each wheel, again? Just what about
that don't you understand?
Any weight over, around the single wheel makes you more likely to
flip. The single wheel can only have 1/3 of the vehicle weight !! Only weight
around the 2 wh axle helps stability.
Didn't we cover this before many times? Please stop trying to build
vehicles before you kill someone as you don't seem to be able to learn.
Sadly,
Jerry Dycus
>
> y question: Where can I find a wide 'motorcycle type' wheel that will
carry
> a 105 load index tire (or better) and which can be mounted in a swing arm
> fork with a bearing on both sides?
>
> BoyntonStu
>
>
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sep 14, 2005, at 10:53 AM, jerry dycus wrote:
Jim Husted may have some like this. I like GE as they usually
are fairly eff though only a little more. Some like the one you noted
and the Prestolites are only 75% eff vs others are 80-82% eff.
I'm not sure what Prestolite you are referring to. The one most often
used in conversions is the MTC-4001 type motor and its not
significantly less efficient that any other motor.
A 96 volt Presto is 75% (or more) efficient at 48 volts from 80 to 450
amps. At 48 volts it is 80% (or more) efficient from 120 to 270 amps.
At 96 volts the motor is 80% or more efficient from 100 to 500 amps.
Peak efficiency at 96 volts is a nearly flat area of the curve at 84%,
from around 160 to 300 amps.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Comments interspersed.
--- stu <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Yesterday I replaced the Goodyear 185/60/15 OEM tires on my 2001
> Ford ZX2 5
> speed coupe with Falken 195/60/15 Ziex ZE-512 tires.
> I never wore out a set of tires in 22,000 miles before and I was
> very disappointed with the original set.
The ZX2 was supposed to be a higher performance car, maybe these were
higher performance tires? An extreme example is race tires, they'll
last only 2000 miles of street use, but will corner, brake, and
accelerate very well. Here's an example with my car:
50,000 mile winter tires: Launch about 1500 rpm without wheelspin
20,000 mile BFG KD high performance street tires: Launch about 2500
2,000 mile Hoosiers: Launch about 3500 rpm without wheelspin
A friend graciously loaned me his Hoosier for the morning session of
an autocross, and I switched back to winter tires for the afternoon.
On a 55 second course, I was 4 seconds faster on the Hoosier race
tires! Here is an entertaining video showing how I had trouble
controlling the car after switching to the winter tires:
<http://www.geocities.com/david_dymaxion/RaceTiresvsWinterTires_med.wmv>
Geocities limits bandwidth, so if it doesn't work today try again the
next day.
> On the ride home I was amazed! The car was smoother, and much
> quieter. I
> could not believe that by just changing the tires I would get the
> feel of a
> different car.
>
> It is a real eye opener for me. Has this ever happened to you?
My BFG KD tires were much noisier on concrete, rougher riding, but
the steering had much quicker response than the winter tires.
Surprisingly, the Hoosiers I raced with 20 psi less air, and seemed
more supple and smoother than the street tires.
The EV content: Tires can make a huge difference. I coastdown
measured the rolling resistance on 2 of my cars to be about 0.013,
which is about twice that published for good low rolling resistance
tires (0.006). This means your car would need only 1/2 the power to
roll at a steady speed at low speed with LRR tires, meaning
significantly better range. On the Salt Flats, a Corvette that
couldn't get above 128 mph for 3 years switched to narrower tires and
promptly went 139 mph. On the flip side, putting race tires on the
car is the number one speed improvement you can give a car (probably
about 95% of cars with race tires will beat 95% of cars without).
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, $2k savings per year doesn't sound unreasonable to me, depending on
where you live. I think you're in TN, right? I, however, live in UT, at
6000 ft. elevation. I have a 3300 sq. ft. home built in 1995, with 6-inch
exterior wall insulation, Tyvek, radiant floor heat, etc. So it's no energy
waster. In the winter, I spend well over $300 per month in gas to heat
it--probably over $400 this coming year with price increases. Utah is a
sunny place, though, even when the weather is cold, and my home faces SW. I
did some calculations on the amount of insolation we get per day, and I
don't think that $2000/year fuel cost savings would be out of line.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Neon John
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2005 1:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of
the modern world.
On Wed, 14 Sep 2005 15:06:33 -0400, "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Hi,
>I've been heating my hot tub, water and half my space heating and
>living in passive/active solar homes for the last 20 years in Colorado and
Virginia.
>If the house is pointed south, the 8 (4x8) panels I built & plumbing,
>$2k total paid back in one year.
How can you possibly claim a $2k payback in one year? What kind of wasteful
house do you have? Even in my ancient concrete block 6800 sq ft building,
gas heat has cost no more than $100/month max and that's only for a couple
of months of the year. Even if NG doubles this year and the sun shown most
of the time, I couldn't save $2k in a year. My mom's 30 year old 2400 sq ft
ranch costs only around $40/month to heat water and air in the winter. She
keeps her place a lot hotter than I do mine.
I covered my roof with solar water heater panels on my first house back in
the mid 70s. They worked great with hot water to burn when the sun shown.
That was spring, summer and part of fall. In the winter they sucked
bilgewater. In this part of the country, cloud cover socks in and remains
for weeks at a time. I'd have been showering in very cold water had I not
kept my gas backup heater.
>Also getting hydrogen from natural gas costs twice as much per energy
>stored as natural gas and wastes 30 in the process.
>This was from Air Corp at EVS-21 who makes H2 for NASA and now for the
>financial black hole "hydrogen economy".
You sound like that guy from IBM who predicted that there was a worldwide
demand for maybe 50 computers back in the 50s. His myopia was so severe
that he could not imagine anything beyond the present.
I have no idea (well, really I do but that's off topic here) what the
breakthroughs might be but I've observed some sort of Moore's Law at work in
just about every place there's been a national will (NOT government will.)
While of interest, end use efficiency takes a back seat to distribution
efficiency. Simple economics. If it can't be gotten to the consumer
efficiently, 100% end use efficiency is of no matter.
Arguing about it here won't change things.
I believe that the use of hydrogen as the energy transport mechanism will
come about simply because of infrastructure factors and because it is
scaleable to almost any size. I'm not enamored with the technology but
frankly I can't think of anything more viable.
Before you bleat "EVs", explain to me how you're going to make a BEV semi
tractor that meet the 40 ton weight limit, go 600 miles between refueling
(12 hours of service * 50 mph), refuel in 8 hours and still have any cargo
capacity. Then explain to me how you'd generate, transport and serve up the
electrical energy equivalent of the couple hundred thousand gallons of
diesel a typical truck stop pumps each day.
For that matter, tell me how you're going to make the family car go, say,
300 miles at 75 mph on a charge and "refuel" in the time it takes for a piss
break during my trip from here to the west coast. Then again, tell me how
you're going to serve up the energy equivalent of the gasoline a major
interstate gas station pumps in a day. (Something makes me think an average
of 50k gallons but I'm not sure and I'm not going to look it up.) I'd wait
15 minutes, maybe even 30 minutes every 300 miles but I'm not sure how many
others would.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have done this, but didn't have chance to get it to work
(software). But I've tested the idea, which is workable, but
picky to get right.
MAjor drawback is you're forced to use reflective boxes
for batteries. If you don't want to use them at all
(just racks) or make them of non-reflective material, you're out of
luck. LAminating everything with foil is poor choice.
Finally, usually people have more than one box, so you'd
need repeaters.
IT's one of those things - one can make it work, but it's not worth
the trouble if a plail fiber can be used. Reinventilg a wheel
can be rewarding, but most of the time it isn't.
It pays to learn existing solutions well and come up with your
own only if none of them are satisfactory for your goal.
Harris, Lawrence wrote:
Arggggh...
Gets me thinking. How about an I/R receive at each battery and one I/R
transmitter that broadcasts to the whole box and can send commands like
'send voltage' or whatever. Then we have a visible light receiver that
monitors an LED on each battery monitor. If there is a problem the LED
lights giving the visual indicator of who has the problem and signaling via
the receiver that there is a problem. Then poll the battery monitors using
the I/R sender. The poll command would cause all the LED's to shut off and
then the requested one re-lights flashing an RS-232 encoded data stream to
the optical receiver. If no I/R commands are sent in some time period the
LED's relight as a status indicator.
No mess of little wires, no electric noise issues (at least in the battery
box).
If heat interferes with the I/R system then I suspect you could do the same
thing with an ultraviolet LED or even just different colours.
Lawrence Harris
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee -- thanks for the VERY informative post and I echo the sentiments in
another thread here. I've only been on this list for a few days and I
already recognize the value of old (no reference to age) hands and
appreciate the input of all of you folks out there.
Lee Hart wrote:
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
Okay, I'm beginning to understand... A contactor controller steps
up the voltage in discrete amounts instead of a smooth progression
as you'd get form a PWM type controller, right?
So with a couple of voltage levels through the contactor controller
and a few gears in the tranny you can dial in the speed you want.
Correct.
What about wear and tear on the contactor and motor parts from sudden
jumps in voltage? not to mention shock to the drivetrain (and your
neck?) from this?
Contactor controllers have been used for over 100 years, and are still
used today because they are simple, inexpensive, and they work. Built
and used right, you don't get excessive wear and tear on things and the
"lurch" between speeds is quite small.
gotcha
When the contactors are sized properly for the currents and voltages
involved, they last for 100,000 cycles or so. That's generally many
years. Contactors for this service also have replaceable contacts; you
just replace them every 10 years or so.
Contactor controllers work best with wound-field motors (series, shunt,
sepex) because these motors don't change speed abruptly when the voltage
changes. For example, a series motor changes its *torque* 2:1 when the
voltage is changed 2:1. In normal driving, a 2:1 change in torque is
barely noticeable -- it causes you to gradually accellerate. If you use
a PM motor with a contactor controller, it tries to double its *speed*
when you double the voltage -- this can produce a big current surge and
"lurch" that is hard on the contactors, motor, and drive train.
gotcha again.
if its a resistor thing, what about using potentiometers?
Contactor controllers are essentially 100% efficient. Resistor
controllers have very poor efficiency -- at half speed they are burning
up half your power as heat!
thats no good
One more thing. The surplus "motor" being discussed is really a shunt
generator. I had one slightly larger than it (Jack & Heinz 30v 500amp)
in my first EV, a 1974 Datsun pickup. I used it with a contactor
controller, and it worked out quite well.
Because it has a shunt field, you can put a small rheostat in series
with the field to control the speed. Operate this rheostat with your
accellerator pedal. You get nice smooth speed variation over about a 4:1
range (1000-4000 rpm) without a controller. Letting up the accellerator
also gives you substantial "engine braking". The motor acts as a
generator and charges the batteries (called regenerative braking).
I found a reference on this in a post back in 1998 and was just going to
email you about this when your post turned up. do you have any
schematics for this puppy? I think I understand it, but am only mostly
ignorant of things electrical and pictures help... ;)
A 4:1 speed range isn't quite enough for all driving; it's kind of fast
for "idling", and not fast enough for high speeds. To extend the range
further, I used a 3-step contactor controller. The first step applied
36v thru a big resistor to the armature -- this got the motor started
from zero speed without a "lurch". The next step applied 36v directly to
the armature for a "low" speed range (1000-4000 rpm). The next step
applied 72v directly to the armature for a "high" speed range (2000-8000
rpm). Within each of these ranges, the field rheostat controlled the
speed.
so you essentially have three "speed" controls: 1) the rheostat to the
field, 2) the three step contactor 3) the tranny. sounds complicated to
operate, at least initially. my wife will be a common driver of my
vehicle, when it gets done. She expects things to just work (though she
loves driving a stick). What is you opinion of the learning curve of
this sort of arrangement? (in our house we call it a "learning curb" in
reference to a missed driveway several years ago...). In your opinion
cost/versus ease of operation, how does this compare to a PWM
controller? And regarding the paragraph below, how well would it work
with a regular series wound motor? (I have no knowledge of what a series
vs shunt motor but will find out, I promise)
thanks
Andrew
While the system works well and is cheap, it has its drawbacks. These
old motor/generators are about 10% less efficient than a modern series
motor. That means they produce a lot of heat (you need a BIG blower!)
and range is lower. They are also noisy; it makes a strong
vacuum-cleaner-like whine. Finally, the special aircraft splined shaft
is a big pain to connect to. The shaft you see is not the real shaft of
the motor; the real shaft is hollow with splines inside and does not
extend outside the case. The external shaft you see is a loose piece
that slides into it. There is no support bearing on this external shaft;
it wobbles freely side-to-side, so you need to support it externally
with a bearing.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
follow-up to previous post
I did some reading and now understand the difference between shunt and
series wound motors.
this brings up some other questions which are probably just for my
edumacation more than anything, but...
is it possible to turn a shunt wound motor into a series wound by
connecting the field and armature coils in series? what happens?
likewise can a series be converted to shunt by just cutting the field to
armature connection and wiring them seperately? again what happens?
interesting phenomenon with shunt wound motors is that the motor will
"run-away" is you kill the current to the field coil as the armature
induces the field coil. is this of any use in ev applications? f.e. can
you get the thing going and then lower or cut the current to the field
and have it still run? what are the implications of this?
I realize this is probably all OT, but I'm a curious bugger...
A
Lee Hart wrote:
Andrew Sackville-West wrote:
Okay, I'm beginning to understand... A contactor controller steps
up the voltage in discrete amounts instead of a smooth progression
as you'd get form a PWM type controller, right?
So with a couple of voltage levels through the contactor controller
and a few gears in the tranny you can dial in the speed you want.
Correct.
What about wear and tear on the contactor and motor parts from sudden
jumps in voltage? not to mention shock to the drivetrain (and your
neck?) from this?
Contactor controllers have been used for over 100 years, and are still
used today because they are simple, inexpensive, and they work. Built
and used right, you don't get excessive wear and tear on things and the
"lurch" between speeds is quite small.
When the contactors are sized properly for the currents and voltages
involved, they last for 100,000 cycles or so. That's generally many
years. Contactors for this service also have replaceable contacts; you
just replace them every 10 years or so.
Contactor controllers work best with wound-field motors (series, shunt,
sepex) because these motors don't change speed abruptly when the voltage
changes. For example, a series motor changes its *torque* 2:1 when the
voltage is changed 2:1. In normal driving, a 2:1 change in torque is
barely noticeable -- it causes you to gradually accellerate. If you use
a PM motor with a contactor controller, it tries to double its *speed*
when you double the voltage -- this can produce a big current surge and
"lurch" that is hard on the contactors, motor, and drive train.
if its a resistor thing, what about using potentiometers?
Contactor controllers are essentially 100% efficient. Resistor
controllers have very poor efficiency -- at half speed they are burning
up half your power as heat!
One more thing. The surplus "motor" being discussed is really a shunt
generator. I had one slightly larger than it (Jack & Heinz 30v 500amp)
in my first EV, a 1974 Datsun pickup. I used it with a contactor
controller, and it worked out quite well.
Because it has a shunt field, you can put a small rheostat in series
with the field to control the speed. Operate this rheostat with your
accellerator pedal. You get nice smooth speed variation over about a 4:1
range (1000-4000 rpm) without a controller. Letting up the accellerator
also gives you substantial "engine braking". The motor acts as a
generator and charges the batteries (called regenerative braking).
A 4:1 speed range isn't quite enough for all driving; it's kind of fast
for "idling", and not fast enough for high speeds. To extend the range
further, I used a 3-step contactor controller. The first step applied
36v thru a big resistor to the armature -- this got the motor started
from zero speed without a "lurch". The next step applied 36v directly to
the armature for a "low" speed range (1000-4000 rpm). The next step
applied 72v directly to the armature for a "high" speed range (2000-8000
rpm). Within each of these ranges, the field rheostat controlled the
speed.
While the system works well and is cheap, it has its drawbacks. These
old motor/generators are about 10% less efficient than a modern series
motor. That means they produce a lot of heat (you need a BIG blower!)
and range is lower. They are also noisy; it makes a strong
vacuum-cleaner-like whine. Finally, the special aircraft splined shaft
is a big pain to connect to. The shaft you see is not the real shaft of
the motor; the real shaft is hollow with splines inside and does not
extend outside the case. The external shaft you see is a loose piece
that slides into it. There is no support bearing on this external shaft;
it wobbles freely side-to-side, so you need to support it externally
with a bearing.
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While I'm thinking about it. Fuel cells remind me
> of solar cells. A
> chemical reaction or conversion taking place in each
> of them? Look at
> the power outputs of both of them. Don't fuel cells
> put out like 1/2
> a volt or 3/4 volt each and about the same or less
> for amps? You
> could stack them up to 300+ volts, but you'd always
> be hurting for
> more amps no matter what voltage you ran.
Ryan,
you are misinformed. right on voltage; wrong on
current.
a single cell PEM fuel cell has an open circuit
voltage just around 1 V. As you draw current, the
voltage changes according to the polarization (V-i)
curve. The shape of the curve is driven by a number of
factors including electrical resistance, proton
conductivity of the membrane, mass transport to the
catalyst layer etc. In this way a single fuel cell is
extremely similar to a single battery cell.
Like a battery cell, the current that can be drawn
from the cell is some function of active area
(basically the cross sectional area of the fuel cell
stack). It is common today to see fuel cells with peak
current capabilities of 1-1.2 A/cm^2. This means that
a typical fuel cell with a cross section of 12 by 18
inches can source about 1500 Amps. That is pretty
solid.
like batteries, the individual cells are stacked in
series (electrically) to give you higher voltage.
Typically the fuel cell stacks used in cars are about
300-450 cells (also ~300-450 V at no load).
so, in conclusion....there is plenty of potential
power there...even for you.
~fortunat
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--- Begin Message ---
First let me say that side by side EV drag races really capture my interest.
I think that Joe and Chip have made excellent points, so I'll comment. The
keys for boosting attendance at EV related events in 2006 are...
Actions Needed (admittedly restating some of what has already been said on
this subject):
1) Set a firm race schedule for all 2006 EVents early (December 2005) and
publish it widely.
2) I too would vote for choosing race dates that are not on major holidays
(Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor day).
3) Race locations should always be held near major population centers with a
large EV, Sustainable Energy audience.
4) Joe hit the nail on the head and I'll rephrase his point a bit.
Attendance for any event is driven by how well it is advertised, how well we
get the
word out in each locale. Consider this a marketing problem. We need a person
to volunteer to serve as the National Marketing Manager (NEDRA) and folks
specifically assigned and energetic at each location to get the word out for
each
regional / local area event. A local marketing person might knock on doors
to get a local electric utility to sponsor an advertisement in their
newsletter or in the local newspaper prior to the event. As a concrete example
Omaha
(Nebraska) Public Power District (OPPD) puts and advert in local papers as
part of their support for Electrathon racing each year. This model might work
well for us. Then "encourage" the local track owner to put some muscle into
advertising the EV subset at each event. My local drag track (Bandimere Raceway
in Morrison Colorado) sends me an events newsletter and updated race schedule
3 or 4 times each year. This is one place where the EV subset of the race
needs to be highlighted. Think about synergies and who benefits directly from
the gate receipts.
Mike Bachand
DEVC
Colorado
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your MKU motor is wound series in the field coils. For a faster motor at X
current you could replumb the coils to flow series parallel. 550 foot pound =
1 HP don't add up here as John Wayland says he is pushing around that amount at
348 volt with two motors. The Corvette he raced last race was stated to have
410 HP and over 400 foot pounds. Use the free spin data to see where you stand
as at least you will know that all is working per factory. The rest will be up
to you (and group) to determine what that motor will carry and the voltage
needed for your speed / range goals.
Hope this helps
Jim
Hi Jim,
Thank-you for the info, so now I am confused (still), I haven't got a clue
to the 5 lb load. Is that 5 ft/lbs of torque and how do I get that
amplified to any usable power? As I read all the things it takes 550
ft/lbs for 1 HP. Also @24V and 20A that works out to 480 watts or
480/746=.64HP and @36V and 75A works out to 3.6HP.
The controller I have is rated 24-48V and I may be able to get to 36 or 48
if I use 12V batteries. I know there is not enough room to put 8 ea 6s in
there.
I have made a heroic assumption that this is a series field motor, is that
true? The Prime Mover had a GE EV-1 control and I am not fully clear on
what I ended up taking out of the unit. I have traced the wiring, but the
EV-1 is an unknown "black box" on my sketch with too many power wires for my
simple logic. (A1,P,A2,T1,N possibly not in that order)
I'll try cross posting this onto the list as well in case it can help anyone
else.
Thanks,
John
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Husted
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:35 PM
Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
Hey John
Thought I'd get you those test specs for the MKU. The L600 manual says that
motor should run at these specs.
24 volts @ 20 amps @ 4400 RPM's @ no load
36 volts @ 75 amps @ 2500 to 2760 RPM's @ 5 lbs load
These motors had an OEM volt rating of 24 to 48 volts
so if you were to run it at 12 volts @ no load you should be around 2500 to
3000 RPMs and still around 20 amps + -.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Jim,
I was able to get in a few hours this weekend on the motor and have gotten
it back together. I had to take the shaft down about .018" and the end bell
out to 55mm and also make the pocket .060" deeper. Sorry for the mixed
measurements, but I didn't keep the notes over the several work sessions. I
am pleased with the result as it spins by hand very easily with the brushes
lifted.
I hooked it up to my old Snap-on charger and the shaft actually turned some.
I didn't check the voltage or speed as I didn't want to let it run too long
as the charger is in need of some work. I just replaced the selenium
rectifier in it (fried) with a selenium stack that I had laying around and
the voltage is some where down around 11 volts due to the multiple diode
drops.
As for the shaft I think if all else fails, I can try making a sprocket or
hub with 6 keyways in it. Just start with the minor diameter of the spline
and space the keyways around the circle.
I have good intentions like everyone else to create a diary of the
conversion to put it up on my website, we'll just have to see if time and
desire keep up. At least so far I have been taking pictures of anything I
think might be of interest to anyone else.
John Neiswanger
----- Original Message -----
From: Jim Husted
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:45 PM
Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
Hey John
Good to talk to you
MKU I know them well and will look up what prestolite says it should run.
It should power that rig pretty nicely. That looks like a pretty nice ride
and I would like to see pics as you go through developement to finished. If
you are unable to get that plate to work, I have some good salvage plates
that might work well as candidates. Second, if you can not find a shaft I
could install a more user friendly shaft into that armature for you to tap
into. What you have in mind sound good though,just thought I'd offer you
some options if all does not go as planned, as there are many way you can
skin that cat so to speak. I thought your motor had no numbers on it so I
thought pic. Although it took you effort, we got to meet and I got to see
yet another EV. Way cool good luck and I'll try to get to you what I can
find out to you. My general feel is that although it may not be the fastest
EV out there that motor should do well and you will be turning heads in no
time. Good luck. And thank you for your kind words.
Jim
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Jim,
Thank-you for the offer. Attached is a picture of the motor, the end bell
and just for fun the proposed donor vehicle. I do have a part number on the
motor of MKU-4005 which Prestolite reports as an "out of production model"
with no info available. It was removed from a Prime Mover stock picker as
the main drive motor and the front bearing is in the gearbox and was on the
outside of a helical gear that slipped onto the motor shaft. I was able to
get a bearing at the local bearing house 55mm X 30mm which is just 3mm
larger OD than the Oil seal that was in the end bell. I am intending to
turn the end bell out to take the bearing which should get the front of the
armature supported. The shaft is a 6 spline by 1" which I haven't tried to
locate a sprocket/hub/connector for yet.
In response to your post to the list this evening, I for one, appreciate all
of your input and would have thought you were one of the charter members if
not told otherwise.
Thank-you for any information you are able to provide on this motor or
project.
respectfully,
John
John Neiswanger
Industrial Electronics
Gridley, CA
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:46 PM
Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
> If you can get a pic forwarded to me I would probably recognizes it. If I
do I can look some spec's up from the prestolite L600 service book.
>
> Jim Husted
> Hi_Torque Electric
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I have a Prestolite 24 volt motor and am unable to get any information
from
> them as it is so old. Is there some safe and hopefully simple way to find
> the RPM and power capabilities of this motor. I want to use it in a
> motorcycle conversion at either 24 or 36 volts. It is 7&1/4" diameter and
> 11" long if that gives any clues.
>
> respectfully,
> John Neiswanger
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
>
>
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
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--- Begin Message ---
Sorry here it is in plain text
The difference between the two is not just greater complexity of putting
together the pack (cooling and such). the price difference would likely
be astronomical. For comparison take the Optima yellow top model D34/78
(12 volts, 55 amp hours, 45 pounds) at a cost of US160. Now a 11.1v
(individual Li Ion cells have a fixed voltage so you cant get exactly
12v) 2.45AH lithium ion batery is US 100. so to equal one yellow top
you would have to plunk down 2200. thats not just a littl extra thats
an order of magnintude. on the other hand the Li ion batter back would
wiegh about 1/4 what the SLA battery weighs still most people don't have
pocketbooks that deep.
For refrence i got the Data for these batteries from these(Li-Ion :
http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=1222
and Optima : http://www.batterymart.com/battery.mv?p=D34%2F78-950 )
sources if I am grossly erroneous in my explanations pleas let me know.
as an aside I think that NiMH batteries would be a better in between
they behave more like NiCads and are about 1/6 the cost per Watt of
LiIon even if they are 2x the wieght it seems like a good medium.
BTW this is my first post in this mailing if my coments are completely
wrong lemmie know and Ill shut up... at least till I really know what
I'm saying. :)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, I was at Sam's batteries for lunch (didn't eat any batteries) but I
noticed that there were marine Exide Orbitals for $130ea STX34DP Blue top
and same size XDT34 black top's in the auto section for $100. I assume the
black top batteries are not as good as the blue top one's?. There were also
12V Stowaway, Exide ST27DC 180 at 105ah 61 lbs for $52.57 but in the past I
didn't get much longevity out of them (compared to the golf cart floodies)
in my Electro Metro back in the early 90's.
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Osmo Sarin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 7:22 AM
Subject: Re: GBP (was: Lithium Battery Users?)
> Don´t know anything about this GBP, but take a look at the picture of
> the building in the "Company profile" page: I think the letters GBP
> were added to the picture afterwards...
>
> Osmo
>
> 15.9.2005 kello 12:34, Lawrie, Robin kirjoitti:
>
> Another link to a lithium battery supplier:
> >
> > Http://www.gbp-battery.com
> >
> > Hadnt heard of them till a couple of days ago, and have mailed them.
> > Got a quote back of $130 for a 40 ah cell. Im waiting for
> > clarification
> > on the performance of these cells, since they include a simple bms like
> > device on each cell.
> >
> > Trouble is I saw this post on the thundersky users group by Sam
> > Thurber:
> >
> >
> > "We've purchased a sample order from this company with
> > very bad results. The company is a scam / shell
> > operation. The chinese portion is just a reseller of
> > someone elses product. They will want you to wire
> > money to a Hong Kong shell company whose phone number
> > is an answering service. Then they will request full
> > payment before shipment and will not accept a Letter
> > of Credit but may accept a local inspection (at a
> > hotel). If you do attempt to do business with them.
> > Make sure you meet them in person and take possesion
> > of all the product in person before payment. We
> > ordered 60AH cells and were sent 18AH cells and do not
> > expect to get the matter resolved. Local police do not
> > know of the company in China. It is likely a transient
> > backyard operation."
> >
> >
> > If that's the case then people should be made aware here too..
> >
> >
> > Anyone else know anything of these guys?
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One more thought -- All things being equal, higher altitude and hot
temperatures helps EVs but hurts ICEs. Here at Salt Lake's 4200 feet,
an ICE drag racer loses about 0.8 seconds due to the altitude. It's
an "unfair advantage" electrics have for putting the hurt on ICE
racers.
Is the dragstrip near Denver a mile high?
What is the nation's highest altitude drag race track?
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> First let me say that side by side EV drag races really capture my
> interest.
>
> I think that Joe and Chip have made excellent points, so I'll
> comment. The
> keys for boosting attendance at EV related events in 2006 are...
>
> Actions Needed (admittedly restating some of what has already been
> said on
> this subject):
>
> 1) Set a firm race schedule for all 2006 EVents early (December
> 2005) and
> publish it widely.
>
> 2) I too would vote for choosing race dates that are not on major
> holidays
> (Memorial Day, 4th of July, and Labor day).
>
> 3) Race locations should always be held near major population
> centers with a
> large EV, Sustainable Energy audience.
>
> 4) Joe hit the nail on the head and I'll rephrase his point a bit.
>
> Attendance for any event is driven by how well it is advertised,
> how well we get the
> word out in each locale. Consider this a marketing problem. We need
> a person
> to volunteer to serve as the National Marketing Manager (NEDRA) and
> folks
> specifically assigned and energetic at each location to get the
> word out for each
> regional / local area event. A local marketing person might knock
> on doors
> to get a local electric utility to sponsor an advertisement in
> their
> newsletter or in the local newspaper prior to the event. As a
> concrete example Omaha
> (Nebraska) Public Power District (OPPD) puts and advert in local
> papers as
> part of their support for Electrathon racing each year. This model
> might work
> well for us. Then "encourage" the local track owner to put some
> muscle into
> advertising the EV subset at each event. My local drag track
> (Bandimere Raceway
> in Morrison Colorado) sends me an events newsletter and updated
> race schedule
> 3 or 4 times each year. This is one place where the EV subset of
> the race
> needs to be highlighted. Think about synergies and who benefits
> directly from
> the gate receipts.
__________________________________
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http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
