EV Digest 4725
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Microturbine generator on eBay
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Microturbine generator on eBay
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Cheap, light taildragger (was 'Re: Rear wheel recommendations')
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electricity stored in batteries. The biggest dissapointment of the
modern world.
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Cheap, light taildragger (was 'Re: Rear wheel recommendations')
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Help with motor rating
by "Philip Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Microturbine generator on eBay
by Meta Bus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Solectria Force cars for sale in New Jersey
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) regs to pfc
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Need Fuses
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Deka Batteries
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
12) Re: baldor motor
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Wire and connector sizing
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EVILBUSQuestions
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) White Zombie Range & Hunting the 11s
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EVILBUSQuestions
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: voltage = speed? (newbie)
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Wire and connector sizing
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Capstone Microturbine on eBay for running a hybrid EV. In fact it came
out of an EV.
Comes with a generator and controller, puts out 30KW of electricity. Neat!
http://cgi.ebay.com/CAPSTONE-MICROTURBINE-30KW-GENERATOR-W-CONTROLLER_W0QQitemZ4405164771QQcategoryZ46412QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sadly I don't have $6k to blow on this sort of thing right now.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yaaa right. I might think about giving $500 for it. That's the
microturbine that nailed the final nail in AVS's coffin. About as
reliable as a wet match. It's set up to run on compressed natural
gas, not terribly useful for an conventional car at this point.
You'd have to be a pretty clever dood to use the output of the
generator. It's a three phase PM alternator, 4 pole I think. At
96,000 RPM, that's 3200 hz. that will require some rather expensive
high speed, high voltage semiconductors to use. I'd not expect to be
able to do anything with the controller unless you're repairing an AVS
hybrid bus.
Of course, it might be fun just to fire off to make your neighbors
think you're driving a turbine car :-)
The seller is this guy in Ooltewah, TN a couple miles away from me who
ended up with all the AVS junk when they cleaned out the building to
sell it. He keeps listing this stuff for outrageous prices that never
sells. You'd think he'd learn. I need to stop down and have a chat
with him :-)
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:34:35 -0500, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Capstone Microturbine on eBay for running a hybrid EV. In fact it came
>out of an EV.
>Comes with a generator and controller, puts out 30KW of electricity. Neat!
>http://cgi.ebay.com/CAPSTONE-MICROTURBINE-30KW-GENERATOR-W-CONTROLLER_W0QQitemZ4405164771QQcategoryZ46412QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
>Sadly I don't have $6k to blow on this sort of thing right now.
>
>Danny
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> I was thinking (for example) of using the front end of a SuperBeetle - see
> http://www.cbperformance.com/catalogimages/superbeetle.jpg - I need
> *something* with a title for licensing,
No you don't. Just title it as a "Self Constructed Vehicle",
"Reconstructed Vehicle", or whatever they call it in your state.
With as many modifications as you are making, it won't be a "Super Beetle"
anymore anyway and will have to be retitled as one of the above, so it
doesn't make any difference if you start with a titled vehicle or not.
Make sure to keep detailed documentation on your work and receipts, etc.
for ALL of the parts you use.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 9/16/05, Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This is very easily done by overhangs that are calculated so that the angle
> of the sun hits
> them in the summer when the sun is high in the sky and goes under them in the
> winter
> when the sun is low in the sky.
>
> That is the concept of passive solar - to use the heat of the sun in the cold
> times of the
> year to heat the house, and shade the house during the hot times of the
> year. A very
> easy concept to implement.
Sure is. Have a look at this graph:
http://www.sci-scotland.org.uk/monitor.html
Temperatures are in Centigrade.
That's for the small demo earthship we built in Scotland - heated by
passive solar energy, in summer and winter.
See www.sci-scotland.org.uk/earthship.html for more info..
Sorry for off topic.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Today's plan is to make a rollcage with a swing-arm driven rear wheel,
-snip-
> level. Most imporantly, however, I need to have a title for the "frame"
> to
> present to our DMV in order to call this a real car (speed is important
If it only has three wheels then it is NOT!!! a car. Cars by legal
definition in most (all?) states must have four or more wheels. Though I
believe there are some states that make exceptions for antique vehicles.
At any rate, if it has three wheels then, depending on your state, it is
probably a motorcycle. I say depending because some states do not allow
you to title three wheeled motorcycles and some states have really wierd
restrictions/definitions of three wheeled motorcycles.
For example, Ohio (used to?) only permit three wheeled motorcycles with
two rear wheels. Vehicles with two front wheels did not meet their
definition of a motorcycle and by definition were not a car so it couldn't
be titled.
Texas had a requirement that the rider "Straddle the seat".
It's best to check the laws in your state.
It's also a good idea to check the requirements in your state on
registering /titling a vehicle. Having an existing title to a vehicle
will probably not help you if the vehicle is substantially modified from
the original titled vehicle.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like you'd be better off with gearing that's about a factor of 2
lower.
Do you have room for an intermediate shaft? ( A shaft with two different
size sprockets that is driven by the motor and drives the rear wheel) That
would allow you much lower overall gearing.
The parts would be pretty cheap - a couple of pillow block bearings from a
place like grainger ( or Ebay) and two sprockets. That would also allow you
to use a larger sprocket on the motor for a smoother drive and less wear -
an 11 tooth sprocket is never a good choice.
If you do this - the motor-to-shaft chain (and sprockets, of course) will
see less tension than the shaft-to-wheel chain and could be smaller. That
would save some weight and money compared to having both chains the same.
Phil Marino
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: Help with motor rating Date: Thu, 15 Sep 2005 22:53:25 -0700
OK, I was able to get some measurements running the motor today.
@5.5 volts I got 1165 RPM, and about 30 amps but it took quite some time to
get to that speed (20-30 Secs.)
@11.67 volts I got 2455 RPM without the ability to get an amp reading and
the ramp up was quick (~2 Secs.)
Don't have a convienient higher voltage source and am leery of the
"runaway"
speeds sometimes mentioned on the list.
For those who missed the original post, I am planning on making a commuter
vehicle out of an old Harley 3-wheeler. I am hoping to use this motor with
or without the existing transmission (preferably without for weight). I
don't have a curb weight on the glider but am estimating the finished GVW
at
~1000 Lbs. including my large behind and the batteries etc.
The rear wheels are 80" per revolution and the rear end has a 37 tooth
sprocket. I think the smallest sproket I can fit to the motor shaft is 11
tooth and my math says that would put 65 mph @ 2886 RPM. I don't know if
this motor can pull that hard. If not, then I need to figure out how fast
the motor can go without self destructing. Also the front chain into the
transmission would be harder to adapt to the electric motor.
The inside of the existing "box" on the back is 26"x33.5"x13" which is the
simplest place to put the batteries. I have some relays off of the donor
lift truck to create the Fwd/Rev and main power contactors as well as a
Nativas (SRE brand) solid state control good for 325 amp continuous and
1000
amp intermittent.
Any suggestions or comments are welcome.
For the record I am in northern Calif. and on the flatlands.
Thanks,
John Neiswanger
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:13 AM
Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
> Your MKU motor is wound series in the field coils. For a faster motor
at
X current you could replumb the coils to flow series parallel. 550 foot
pound = 1 HP don't add up here as John Wayland says he is pushing around
that amount at 348 volt with two motors. The Corvette he raced last race
was stated to have 410 HP and over 400 foot pounds. Use the free spin data
to see where you stand as at least you will know that all is working per
factory. The rest will be up to you (and group) to determine what that
motor will carry and the voltage needed for your speed / range goals.
> Hope this helps
> Jim
>
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Thank-you for the info, so now I am confused (still), I haven't got a
clue
> to the 5 lb load. Is that 5 ft/lbs of torque and how do I get that
> amplified to any usable power? As I read all the things it takes 550
> ft/lbs for 1 HP. Also @24V and 20A that works out to 480 watts or
> 480/746=.64HP and @36V and 75A works out to 3.6HP.
>
> The controller I have is rated 24-48V and I may be able to get to 36 or
48
> if I use 12V batteries. I know there is not enough room to put 8 ea 6s
in
> there.
>
> I have made a heroic assumption that this is a series field motor, is
that
> true? The Prime Mover had a GE EV-1 control and I am not fully clear on
> what I ended up taking out of the unit. I have traced the wiring, but
the
> EV-1 is an unknown "black box" on my sketch with too many power wires
for
my
> simple logic. (A1,P,A2,T1,N possibly not in that order)
>
> I'll try cross posting this onto the list as well in case it can help
anyone
> else.
>
> Thanks,
> John
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Husted
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2005 7:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
>
>
> Hey John
> Thought I'd get you those test specs for the MKU. The L600 manual says
that
> motor should run at these specs.
> 24 volts @ 20 amps @ 4400 RPM's @ no load
> 36 volts @ 75 amps @ 2500 to 2760 RPM's @ 5 lbs load
> These motors had an OEM volt rating of 24 to 48 volts
> so if you were to run it at 12 volts @ no load you should be around 2500
to
> 3000 RPMs and still around 20 amps + -.
>
> Hope this helps
> Jim Husted
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> I was able to get in a few hours this weekend on the motor and have
gotten
> it back together. I had to take the shaft down about .018" and the end
bell
> out to 55mm and also make the pocket .060" deeper. Sorry for the mixed
> measurements, but I didn't keep the notes over the several work
sessions.
I
> am pleased with the result as it spins by hand very easily with the
brushes
> lifted.
>
> I hooked it up to my old Snap-on charger and the shaft actually turned
some.
> I didn't check the voltage or speed as I didn't want to let it run too
long
> as the charger is in need of some work. I just replaced the selenium
> rectifier in it (fried) with a selenium stack that I had laying around
and
> the voltage is some where down around 11 volts due to the multiple diode
> drops.
>
> As for the shaft I think if all else fails, I can try making a sprocket
or
> hub with 6 keyways in it. Just start with the minor diameter of the
spline
> and space the keyways around the circle.
>
> I have good intentions like everyone else to create a diary of the
> conversion to put it up on my website, we'll just have to see if time
and
> desire keep up. At least so far I have been taking pictures of anything
I
> think might be of interest to anyone else.
>
> John Neiswanger
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Jim Husted
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, September 09, 2005 10:45 PM
> Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
>
>
> Hey John
> Good to talk to you
> MKU I know them well and will look up what prestolite says it should
run.
> It should power that rig pretty nicely. That looks like a pretty nice
ride
> and I would like to see pics as you go through developement to finished.
If
> you are unable to get that plate to work, I have some good salvage
plates
> that might work well as candidates. Second, if you can not find a shaft
I
> could install a more user friendly shaft into that armature for you to
tap
> into. What you have in mind sound good though,just thought I'd offer you
> some options if all does not go as planned, as there are many way you
can
> skin that cat so to speak. I thought your motor had no numbers on it so
I
> thought pic. Although it took you effort, we got to meet and I got to
see
> yet another EV. Way cool good luck and I'll try to get to you what I can
> find out to you. My general feel is that although it may not be the
fastest
> EV out there that motor should do well and you will be turning heads in
no
> time. Good luck. And thank you for your kind words.
>
> Jim
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Hi Jim,
>
> Thank-you for the offer. Attached is a picture of the motor, the end
bell
> and just for fun the proposed donor vehicle. I do have a part number on
the
> motor of MKU-4005 which Prestolite reports as an "out of production
model"
> with no info available. It was removed from a Prime Mover stock picker
as
> the main drive motor and the front bearing is in the gearbox and was on
the
> outside of a helical gear that slipped onto the motor shaft. I was able
to
> get a bearing at the local bearing house 55mm X 30mm which is just 3mm
> larger OD than the Oil seal that was in the end bell. I am intending to
> turn the end bell out to take the bearing which should get the front of
the
> armature supported. The shaft is a 6 spline by 1" which I haven't tried
to
> locate a sprocket/hub/connector for yet.
>
> In response to your post to the list this evening, I for one, appreciate
all
> of your input and would have thought you were one of the charter members
if
> not told otherwise.
>
> Thank-you for any information you are able to provide on this motor or
> project.
> respectfully,
> John
> John Neiswanger
> Industrial Electronics
> Gridley, CA
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jim Husted"
> To:
> Sent: Thursday, September 08, 2005 9:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Help with motor rating
>
>
> > If you can get a pic forwarded to me I would probably recognizes it.
If
I
> do I can look some spec's up from the prestolite L600 service book.
> >
> > Jim Husted
> > Hi_Torque Electric
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > Hi All,
> >
> > I have a Prestolite 24 volt motor and am unable to get any information
> from
> > them as it is so old. Is there some safe and hopefully simple way to
find
> > the RPM and power capabilities of this motor. I want to use it in a
> > motorcycle conversion at either 24 or 36 volts. It is 7&1/4" diameter
and
> > 11" long if that gives any clues.
> >
> > respectfully,
> > John Neiswanger
> >
> >
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> >
> >
>
>
>
> Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
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Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One pulled Capstone sold for that 6K asking price, previously,
apparently. It was originally listed at 9999, then relisted at 7999,
listed again at 5999, and after one more re-listing, it sold.
Capstone originally had HEV's in mind when they started up. Although
they still seem to be in start-up mode (not profitable yet) they do sell
those as remote stationary power generators, and new retail is around
$30k. I've seen used stationary units advertised for $16,500.
I am not authoritative on AVS or Capstone, but most of the news articles
and test reports I've read have pointed to a wide variety of general
problems with the buses (like "swimming" in the front suspension, or
leakage through the windshield), and fleets had plenty of other reasons
to reject AVS, besides the microturbine.
Capstones are still being built into hybrid buses (eBus in Cali).
I have one of those in the back of my AVS bus, of the diesel variety. I
have a parts bus that has an empty spot where the turbine used to be.
Mmmm...
John, if you stop by to see him, offer $600 for me.
Yes the Capstone Digital Power Controller is an interesting piece of
electrical engineering. I haven't opened the box yet, to get a look
inside, but I am curious as to how the variable voltage and variable
frequency are corralled and taken to a steady 60 hz.
Neon John wrote:
Yaaa right. I might think about giving $500 for it. That's the
microturbine that nailed the final nail in AVS's coffin. About as
reliable as a wet match. It's set up to run on compressed natural
gas, not terribly useful for an conventional car at this point.
You'd have to be a pretty clever dood to use the output of the
generator. It's a three phase PM alternator, 4 pole I think. At
96,000 RPM, that's 3200 hz. that will require some rather expensive
high speed, high voltage semiconductors to use. I'd not expect to be
able to do anything with the controller unless you're repairing an AVS
hybrid bus.
Of course, it might be fun just to fire off to make your neighbors
think you're driving a turbine car :-)
The seller is this guy in Ooltewah, TN a couple miles away from me who
ended up with all the AVS junk when they cleaned out the building to
sell it. He keeps listing this stuff for outrageous prices that never
sells. You'd think he'd learn. I need to stop down and have a chat
with him :-)
On Fri, 16 Sep 2005 03:34:35 -0500, Danny Miller
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Capstone Microturbine on eBay for running a hybrid EV. In fact it came
out of an EV.
Comes with a generator and controller, puts out 30KW of electricity. Neat!
http://cgi.ebay.com/CAPSTONE-MICROTURBINE-30KW-GENERATOR-W-CONTROLLER_W0QQitemZ4405164771QQcategoryZ46412QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Sadly I don't have $6k to blow on this sort of thing right now.
Danny
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Station Car Sale
TransOptions will be offering Solectrica Force Electric Vehicles for sale.
The Electric cars were driven by groups of commuters from the Morristown Train
Station to participating work locations. At the end of each work day commuters
drive the station car back to the train station for overnight parking and
charging.
Vehicles have been professionally maintained, all have low mileage, under 14000
miles. ICS 200 charging units are included with sale. All vehicles have
decals on them, and are being sold in "as is" condition.
Cars are available for pick up at the Morristown train station, Morristown, NJ.
The project vehicles are 1997 Chevrolet Geo Metro Solectria Force 4-door sedans
(converted GEO Metros). A total of six cars are being offered for sale. Noted
below are conditions and asking prices for the vehicles.
If interested contact:
John Fiore
973-267-7600 x 101
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Or
Don Watt
973-267-7600 x 109
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Call for details.
Vehicle #
Vehicle ID #
Asking Price
Repairs Needed
___________________________________________________________________________
1-86
2C1MR5292V6715227
$6700
A/C Inoperable; Air Bag & Horn not operational;
Needs multi switch in steering column
___________________________________________________________________________
2-87
2C1MR5291V6729961
$6500
A/C Inoperable; Needs new charger plug
___________________________________________________________________________
3-43
2C1MR5290V6750137
$5800
Needs Tires
Needs Motor Controller
___________________________________________________________________________
4-E54
2C1MR5290V6750056
$5500
Needs Tires & Batteries
___________________________________________________________________________
5-D54
2C1MR5298V6720352
$6000
Problems Trans or Motor Controller (call for details)
___________________________________________________________________________
6-55
2C1MR5294V6739870
$7800
Needs outside mirror on driver's side of vehicle
--
Mike Bianchi
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--- Begin Message ---
Nick in Naples fl. is getting ready to hook his Reg and PFC 50 together ,
dose he have to set these little switches or just pulg in cable form reg to
charger? These are the regs that Rich is selling,,,, Mark 2 maybe , where
bought 6 months ago .
Steve Clunn
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--- Begin Message ---
On 9/16/05, Jeff Wilson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> To Victor and all others that responded to my aid...
>
> The reason I was concerned about the amps listed on the fuse is because
> Solectria was very specific regarding the fuse in the traction pack as
> listed in the E-10 manual. However, I finally received a call from them
> late this afternoon and they indicated that the fuse could be a 200amp if I
> couldn't find 180. The only reason given for the specific fuse in the
> manual was "arbitrary". As described by the tech I talked with, the only
> reason for the fuse is to blow in case of a short in the pack on the frame
> or other part of the truck. He said if I had enough of a short to blow a
> 180, it would certainly blow a 200. Any short in the pack is going to be
> well in excess of that figure.
Yes, the fuse is chosen so it's the lowest value that won't (often)
blow unintentionally.
For example, my factory made EV has several "170A" fuses throughout
the pack. However, the motor controller can draw over 180A! Even so,
in practice it's not possible to do that for long enough to blow the
fuse - the batteries run out or the motor will overheat first.
I'm sure the manufacturers are concerned about choosing the lowest
current and fastest opening fuse that they can. In the event of the
pack being almost flat when a short circuit happens, it might not be
able to produce enough current for long enough to blow the fuse,
especially if it's too big. In that case you might set the wiring or
a battery on fire first!
--
EVan
http://www.tuer.co.uk/evs2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John and Ryan,
I was just at my local Deka outlet here in Nashville and the manager there
gave me a copy of the article. (I'll type it up later) It was a really nice
write-up on his use of the Intimidators. Also, the manager said that Deka
is probably going to increase the ratings on the Intimidator because they
are seeing much better performance than the specs show. I asked why the
increase in price recently and he said it was due to the cost of lead. The
Chinese have been buying up all the excess lead in the US and we should be
seeing it coming back into the US as finished batteries soon. I guess we
can start looking for the price of all batteries to be going up soon. He
also indicated that shipping costs were going to increase and that would be
passed on to consumers as well. We may be able to get away from the pumps
directly, but they are still effecting us indirectly!
Incidentally, he said that when the company was trying to figure out a name
for them, he won the prize when he submitted the Intimidator name.
Jeff Wilson
USA(Ret)
-----Original Message-----
From: Ryan Stotts [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 9:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Deka Batteries
John Bisby wrote:
> Does anyone on this list have experience with Deka Intimidator
This is the only vehicle I know of currently using those batteries:
http://www.coate.org/tom/escort/escort.html
This person was on this list at one time.
He said Deka contacted him and was going to do a story on him and his
car in their company newsletter. I never heard the results of that..
I really liked those batteries before the price went up. Now they are
the same price as Exide Orbitals.. :/
They used to be like $88 each and the Orbitals were $99 each, and the
Optimas as expensive as ever..
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim, Rich and All,
Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Baldors seem to me to have small brushes compaired to ADC and Prestolites
designs. I've always found the parts harder to find with a bit more bite on
costs. On a pro side it should have a variable time brush ring built in. My
feeling is you might have brush issues. What size, diameter is this?
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
Rich wrote:
what do you folks think a baldor forklift 2 HP 36 volt 53 amp 2800 rpm motor
would do in a volkswagen beetle with gears?
Rich
This motor is just too small for anything other than a Mc or
small trike of limited top speed. Though would be ok in a aero cabin MC or
other under 1,000 total weight EV with good aero if you want more than 45mph.
With a Beetle you may get 35 mph in first on 72vdc if you are
lucky. Better would be use 2 of them for about 50 mph hich with the Bugs aero
is about all you'll get. But using 2 would make it an excellent errand, slow
commuter EV at a very low cost .
HTH's
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
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Under Engineering Supervision, conductor ampacities shall be permitted to be
calculated for design lengths. This depends on conductor temperature, ambient
temperature, dc resistance of conductor and thermal resistance between other
conductors and surroundings.
Lets, take this to the extreme. A engineering for a factory assemble device
that draws 4000 amps for 0.1 second on and 15 second off only required a No. 2
Awg copper stranded wire with a 90 degree C. rating!!!!
In there testing, this conductor never went above 60 degrees C. So the blue
prints for installation to commercial power show a 2 inch conduit with 4 No. 2
AWG 90 degree C. for a run of 100 feet from the mains.
At the mains, was a 3 pole 480 volt LIMITRON circuit breaker that has a CURRENT
REGULATOR attach to it which is adjusted for 125 AMPS.
A Fuse Disconnect switch is required next to this machine. This switch has 200
amp LIMITRON fuses in it that has a interrupting rate of 250,000 amps.
This was put out for bid to electrical contractors, and only one contractor bid
on it. Others said, that it is not according to NEC and did not understand the
Engineering In Field Designs that ARE PERMITTED by the NEC. They said you need
conductors for 4000 amps.
So a Engineer like Otmar can design the conductor sizes for his motor
controllers.
The NEC is now getting into the EV conductor sizes and type required for EV's
for different voltages. These conductors are mark with EV and other
specifications as to voltage and temperature.
I ran all my motor interconnects to the Zilla and battery interconnects with
the new reduce size 2/0 multi strand copper cable, that is not a welding cable
type with the very fine wires, but is similar with a larger strands that still
ran into the hundreds or strands.
I ran between my battery back to the Zilla with 4/0 cable because it became a
25 ft run. In looking at ampere tables for conductors, I could have run two
No. 2 AWG in parallel that would have the same ampere capacity of the 4/0 cable.
The following ratings are for a 100 foot run for a maximum of 3 percent voltage
drop at 90 degree C. insulation rating in a Conduit or Raceway.
The ampere rating can be increase as the distances are reduce without
increasing the temperature rating.
4/0 AWG - 260 amperes
2/0 AWG - 195 amperes
2 AWG - 130 amperes
I went back to the shop, and I found I can insert three No. 2 AWG into a 4/0
wire terminal. That would give 390 amperes and the wire should run cooler too
and would have been easier to install.
Its is a required by the NEC, that parallel conductor runs shall end up to a
single terminal. This is because if one becomes loose, that the one remaining
cable goes into a fault.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Ryan Bohm<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; EV
List<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:32 PM
Subject: Re: Wire and connector sizing
Hi Jeff and Everyone:
I think this page will answer most of your questions as to what is
available:
http://www.evsource.com/tls_lugs.php<http://www.evsource.com/tls_lugs.php>
A wise EV expert (Otmar) told me once that 2/0 will be sufficient for
most EV applications in the battery loop. Short 2/0 runs will suffice
in the motor loop for a Z1K. Use 4/0 cable to the motor with the Z2K.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com<http://www.evsource.com/>> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
All at the best prices available!
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 07:49 PM 9/15/2005, Eric Poulsen wrote:
That diagram says that it's the "non-echo" version, but as drawn,
wouldn't the current flow through T2, R4 (10 Ohms), and pins 1,2 of
IC1 during TX?
Hmm, Looks like it to me to. (Though R4 is shown as 15 Ohms, not 10)
I was just adding comments made by Lee, so Lee, which is it?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
John Westlund wrote:
>Now I have a few questions about White Zombie now. The
>Hawker Aerobatteries and a significant reduction in battery
>weight have got to be bad on the range. What has that figure?
>changed to, about? I know Zombie was not built for range,
>but it is supposed to be street legal, so I'd expect it to
>at least have some utility as a commuter.
Admittedly, we had to trailer the car to Woodburn as it's 45 miles from
my house. Even if the batteries had been better broken in, that's beyond
the range of the car. PIR however, is much closer at about 16 miles from
my house and I plan on having Tim drive it to the track this weekend,
just as I did when it was powered by 800 lbs. of Exides at 240V.
From David Thompson:
>Hmmm. How much do those pups weigh?
Yes, there's less weight in batteries compared to the Exide version.
Instead of 20, 40 lb. 12V batteries, there's now 29, 24 lb. 12V
batteries that make up its 348V, 696 lb. pack, or about 100 lbs. less
weight in batteries.
The plus side, is that the car lost more than that 100 lbs. of batteries
in this latest version...as in 13 lbs. lost by switching to an aluminum
driveline, 25 lbs. lost by switching to the new Siamese 8 motor over the
old twin motors with their heavy bracket and shaft - to - shaft coupler,
about 40 lbs. of weight shaved off by pulling out all those heavy 4/0
cables with their heavy 4/0 battery terminal clamps that used to
interconnect each Exide battery (the Hawkers have stubby 2-3 inch solid
copper bus bar interconnects), about 10 lbs. of weight shaved off by
replacing the four lengths of 1/0 power cable (2 black cables in
parallel for the negative pack lead and 2 red cables in parallel for the
positive pack lead) with two 4/0 cables with one negative and one
positive, two less contactors under the hood for another 5 lbs. gone,
and more weight removed here and there. I plan on taking the car to the
local weight scale this week, but it should weigh between 2250-2300 lbs.
now. So, even though the pack is 100 lbs. lighter, and, should have less
watt hours of energy available for range, that same pack has a lighter
car to move. There's also a pinch more efficiency in running at 348V
compared to 240V.
Here' a good comparison to make. Blue Meanie weighs about the same as
White Zombie now weighs, at 2340 lbs. With 100 lbs. 'less' weight in
batteries than White Zombie, and by rolling on skinny LRR tires, the
Meanie's 13 Optimas at 585 lbs. can take that car 25 miles per charge
when the batteries are in top shape. It's therefore reasonable to assume
the with 100 lbs. more in pack weight, better efficiency due to running
high voltage with very low amps for cruise speeds and because of less
spinning mass (no dual motor shaft coupler and that aluminum driveline),
but with more rolling resistance due to its fat drag tires in back, I'm
thinking with the rear tires inflated up to 35 psi instead of their
usual race pressure in the 15-18 lb. area, that White Zombie will do
about 25-30 miles per charge.
From John Westlund:
>I await to see what this car does in the future. With a
>proper change in overall gearing, and with proper traction,
>there shouldn't be one damn thing keeping this car out of
>the 11s.
It certainly won't be a slam dunk by any means, but yes, after my
experience of trying to control the car at a full 2000 amps from rest at
the Wayland Invitational races (I had to turn the Zilla's current
limit down to 1500 amps to make it stay on the road) and after Tim's
runs at the Woodburn Drag races, we both feel the car is capable of a
high 11. It just bristles with power and 'feels' like an 11 second
machine. To get it to actually turn that kind of time though, is no
small task. We'll have to do lots of tweaking and a mild gear ratio
change from its present super low 4:57 to maybe a slightly 'taller'
4:30. A taller gear set would normally slow down the hole shot, but
since we have to presently turn down the Zilla's amps during series mode
to keep from having too wild a launch anyway, we should be able to
simply crank it back up to make up for any lost torque off the line and
hopefully, we'll be able to preserve the car's current 60 ft. time and
terrific sub 8 second 1/8 mile performance. If that all works out, the
taller set would really help at the far end of the track where the motor
now, is getting perilously close to that 170V range at 104 mph. Check
out the motor voltage at the end of the run at 104 mph here:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com/graphics/plots/zombie-woodburn-2005-run6.png
Pulling against the taller ratio, the motor rpm will be lower, thus the
volts at the motor will also be lower while the amps will be a little
higher. This ratio change 'could' push the car over the 110 mph barrier,
too, providing there's enough horsepower to get the job done.
For the immediate future, we're looking at keeping everything the same
except for four changes. The first, is to build and install new longer
traction bars to reduce spring wind-up, as the current ones have their
snubber hitting about 3 inches behind the leading spring eye. The new
ones will place the snubber (fitted with a poly skateboard wheel instead
of the soft rubber cushion it presently has) right at the spring eye
pivot. The second, is to slightly turn up the battery current limit from
900 amps to 1000 amps. Higher battery amps will extend the run time in
series mode, and in the parallel mode will give a bit more push at the
end of the track, too. With just these two changes and knowing that the
pack is still gaining strength, with any luck we'll go deeper into the
12s with maybe a 12.4 @ 105 mph or maybe even a 12.3 @ 106 mph :-) The
third, is to immediately replace the front rotors and install more
aggressive pads....those decelerations from 100+ mph speeds at the end
of the track finished off what was left of the pads and scored the
rotors :-( I should have been paying attention to slowing down as much
as I did to going faster! The fourth, is to get all the Rudman Regs
installed.
It's supposed to rain today through tonight, Friday, as Summer's going
away and we're heading into Oregon's Fall rainy season now. Still, both
September and October have their share of warmer dry days...after that,
from November through Spring, its gets cooler and rains a lot. PIR shuts
down usually after the first weekend in November through April and opens
agin in May. Saturday is forecast to dry back up, so we're planning on
racing at PIR on Saturday night. Both Tim and I have lots of overtime in
this week, so we're both getting off work very early today.....lots of
car mods to get done in two days!
See Ya.....John 'Plasma Boy' Wayland
Plasma Boy Racing...
'We Blow things up, so you don't have to'
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
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--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
Eric Poulsen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Actually, you could use something like the DS2436 Battery ID/Monitor
<http://www.maxim-ic.com/quick_view2.cfm/qv_pk/2917/ln/>. This one-wire
device monitors both voltage and temperature. Of course, its supply
range (2.4-10V) does not extend high enough for it to run directly off a
12V battery, so you'd need to operate it off a voltage divider and scale
the voltage readings accordingly.
Yeah, I saw these ... they could probably be made to work.
The challenge with isolating the 1-wire interface is that you need to
split the 1-wire into distinct transmit and receive paths and isolate
each of them. It is not impossible, but it largely negates the
advantages of the 1-wire scheme.
Yes & no ... You have more circuitry on the battery, but the wiring in
the batt box is still really simple. You could use an RJ11 jack to pass
the 1 wire & power for the circuitry -- the convenience comes with all
the software and whatnot already available.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee,
About a year ago, someone on the EVDL asked if it would be possible to use
a single TS 10000Ah cells in an EV instead of a series string of smaller Ah
cells. You may have been the one who replied, but I couldn't find it in
the archives. Do you think a DC motor could be wound for 3.6V and still
drive an EV? To reach 10kW in normal driving, you'd have to pull about
3000A continuous. Lots of thick wire for that baby. Would such a high
amperage waste too much power?
If you think such a motor is possible, then hey, Jim Husted, want a
challenge? :)
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 8:03 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: voltage = speed? (newbie)
>> So why can´t I get the same speed with a low voltage+high amp system
>> that I get with a high voltage + low amp?
STEVE CLUNN wrote:
> Well this could be done, would need a bigger motor, or one not
> being used by anyone on the list :-)
No, not quite. A motor can be rewound for almost any voltage. Basically,
there is a certain amount of room for the windings. You can fill it with
many turns of small wire for high voltage, or a few turns of heavy wire
for low voltage.
The motor works exactly the same regardless of the voltage/current you
wind it for. Same torque, same speed, same horsepower, same efficiency
-- all that matters is the *power* that goes in.
There are a few limitations. First, you can't go below the voltage at
which the winding becomes a single turn. This is only likely to be a
limitation for very low voltages like 12v. Second, you can't go to such
a high voltage that the wire size gets impractically small or the
insulation needed gets impractically thick. This is only a problem over
1000 volts.
Third, if there is a commutator, it needs to be correct for the basic
voltage and current. The total area of the brushes limits the maximum
current; the number of commutator bars and the spacing between them
limits the voltage.
The commutator is hard to change; so it sets a real-world limit to how
far you can change the voltage of a motor. You can probably leave it
as-is for a 2:1 change in voltage up/down; but would have to change it
to get outside this range.
But for a manufacturer, anything is possible. Low-voltage high-current
motors have long commutators to get enough brush area. High-voltage
low-current motors have large-diameter commutators with lots of bars to
get the voltage between bars low enough.
AC motors don't have commutator, so these limitations don't apply. Thus
you can get anything from 1 volt to 10,000 volt AC motors!
--
If you would not be forgotten
When your body's dead and rotten
Then write of great deeds worth the reading
Or do the great deeds worth repeating
-- Ben Franklin, Poor Richard's Almanac
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
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Roland,
I'm not sure I understand you - are you saying that I can substitute 3 - 2 AWG
runs for a #2/0 run? And at the same time end up with a better amp rating than
a #4/0 run?
If yes, then all I have to do is make the 3 runs into one, I can wrap them with
elec tape (orange) and then put them inside a pipe/sleeve of some sort.
Would using 3 - #2AWG runs instead of #2/0 cable be an acceptable solution?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 16, 2005 7:17 AM
Subject: Re: Wire and connector sizing
> Under Engineering Supervision, conductor ampacities shall be permitted to be
> calculated for design lengths. This depends on conductor temperature,
> ambient temperature, dc resistance of conductor and thermal resistance
> between other conductors and surroundings.
>
> Lets, take this to the extreme. A engineering for a factory assemble device
> that draws 4000 amps for 0.1 second on and 15 second off only required a No.
> 2 Awg copper stranded wire with a 90 degree C. rating!!!!
> In there testing, this conductor never went above 60 degrees C. So the blue
> prints for installation to commercial power show a 2 inch conduit with 4 No.
> 2 AWG 90 degree C. for a run of 100 feet from the mains.
>
> At the mains, was a 3 pole 480 volt LIMITRON circuit breaker that has a
> CURRENT REGULATOR attach to it which is adjusted for 125 AMPS.
>
> A Fuse Disconnect switch is required next to this machine. This switch has
> 200 amp LIMITRON fuses in it that has a interrupting rate of 250,000 amps.
>
> This was put out for bid to electrical contractors, and only one contractor
> bid on it. Others said, that it is not according to NEC and did not
> understand the Engineering In Field Designs that ARE PERMITTED by the NEC.
> They said you need conductors for 4000 amps.
>
> So a Engineer like Otmar can design the conductor sizes for his motor
> controllers.
>
> The NEC is now getting into the EV conductor sizes and type required for EV's
> for different voltages. These conductors are mark with EV and other
> specifications as to voltage and temperature.
>
> I ran all my motor interconnects to the Zilla and battery interconnects with
> the new reduce size 2/0 multi strand copper cable, that is not a welding
> cable type with the very fine wires, but is similar with a larger strands
> that still ran into the hundreds or strands.
>
> I ran between my battery back to the Zilla with 4/0 cable because it became a
> 25 ft run. In looking at ampere tables for conductors, I could have run two
> No. 2 AWG in parallel that would have the same ampere capacity of the 4/0
> cable.
>
> The following ratings are for a 100 foot run for a maximum of 3 percent
> voltage drop at 90 degree C. insulation rating in a Conduit or Raceway.
>
> The ampere rating can be increase as the distances are reduce without
> increasing the temperature rating.
>
> 4/0 AWG - 260 amperes
> 2/0 AWG - 195 amperes
> 2 AWG - 130 amperes
>
> I went back to the shop, and I found I can insert three No. 2 AWG into a 4/0
> wire terminal. That would give 390 amperes and the wire should run cooler
> too and would have been easier to install.
>
> Its is a required by the NEC, that parallel conductor runs shall end up to a
> single terminal. This is because if one becomes loose, that the one
> remaining cable goes into a fault.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Ryan Bohm<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: Jeff Shanab<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ; EV
> List<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, September 15, 2005 10:32 PM
> Subject: Re: Wire and connector sizing
>
>
> Hi Jeff and Everyone:
>
> I think this page will answer most of your questions as to what is
> available:
>
> http://www.evsource.com/tls_lugs.php<http://www.evsource.com/tls_lugs.php>
>
> A wise EV expert (Otmar) told me once that 2/0 will be sufficient for
> most EV applications in the battery loop. Short 2/0 runs will suffice
> in the motor loop for a Z1K. Use 4/0 cable to the motor with the Z2K.
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com<http://www.evsource.com/>> -
> Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, WarP, and PowerCheq
> All at the best prices available!
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
--- End Message ---
