EV Digest 4749
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re:Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
2) Re: Which Nedra class?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
by "John J Januszewski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re:Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
by James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: White Zombie Saturday Night Race Results at PIR, 9-17-05
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Re: Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Battery shunt
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Vicor PFC Mini as charger
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Heatsink and silicone
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Variac voltage no load vs. load.
by Rhett George <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles in
my EV
by "Rich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 mil
es in my EV
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles in my
EV
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Variac voltage no load vs. load.
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Western Sales auctions has at least 10 gould chargers ranging up to 200 volts
and 50 amps coming from APS.Probaly pennies on a dollar.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If a person had a pro street truck(NHRA)tube frame, fiber body fitted in such
a way as to be totaly street legal and driven on the street with a lic. and
insurance which class would it belong to in nedra?
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Roland,
Thank you for all the info. I have not yet built any part of the battery
tray for the EV yet. I plan on building it all of fiberglass/Kevlar and
epoxy. Most of the car will be composites so metal chassis problems
shouldn't happen. Do you think that running a vertical fiberglass wall down
the middle of the tray, between the batteries, will help the surface tracing
problem? They will all be touching each other via the common "floor" that
they will be sitting on in the tray. The top surfaces can be separated by
vertical walls and a small air gap. I'm trying to avoid having two really
long 2/0 cables coming from the back of the car all the way to the front.
Of course if I have to do it I will but if I can design the batt boxes to
avoid it I would like that.
Thanks again for all the info. I will save this message for when I actually
have something to test.
Regards,
John J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
Hello John,
The distance in free air is not the problem. Its when these string of
batteries end up with both ends of the strings are together that are
touching each other.
Do the following test using one battery:
Using a volt meter, measure the voltage of the battery.
Now keeping one lead on a post, move the other lead off the other post and
making contact on the plastic top next to this post. Read the voltage.
Slide the test lead across the top of the battery closer to the other
post. Notice that there will be a voltage change from maximum to a
minimum reading.
If the battery is new and has never been charge or the battery cells never
vent, you may not get a reading.
Do this test on a older battery that has been charge and cycle many times,
and you will get a voltage reading. The voltage is tracking across the
top of the battery.
If you get a reading in the middle of the battery along its edge that is
half the voltage of the battery, than its time to clean the batteries.
No matter how much you clean it, you will still get a small indication.
Looping the string of 12 volt batteries with 6 batteries per roll, you
will have 12 volts x 12 batteries = 144 volts between two adjacent
batteries, NOT GOOD.
Charging these batteries with the two end batteries in the string, will
increase the tracking from and will arc over.
Also, if your battery pack is in a uninsulated metal battery rack, the
charging voltage of 150 volts or more will be from any one of the
batteries to the frame of the battery rack.
The best layout for a string of batteries is to have all the batteries in
one roll. If that is not possible, than loop back with a air space
between the rolls.
In my battery pack, the maximum voltage difference is 72 volts between
only six batteries in the pack of 30. I space these at about 1/4 inch
inside a insulated battery box.
I used to have a 90 cell battery that was in a epoxy coated aluminum box.
One time I was charging these cells I notice arcing of the many cells to
the sides of the box when it was dark. You cannot see this faint small
arcing in the day light.
So even with my T-145's, they are space, I do the dark test once in a
while.
Battery Connection Test:
In one of my E-mails, I stated do not work on the batteries while it is
charging. There will be the maximum charger voltage from any one of the
battery post to the ground frame of the EV if it ground to the same ground
of a on board charger.
One exception to this, is to do a BATTERY CONNECTION TEST WHILE THE
CHARGER IS ON. This is very dangerous and you must take extra ordinary
cautions to do this test. You have to dress up the EV and your self in
insulation rubber blankets and rubber gloves to do this test. I used to
work high voltage live over 10,000 volts.
Drape a rubber mat over any metal part of the EV you may be contact in.
Place another rubber mat over the batteries, except the ones you are going
to test.
This test, is to check the continuity of the battery connections that go
from one battery to the next. You will perform a SHUNT TEST by placing
the test leads of a multimeter in parallel with the connection from one
battery to the next.
Place the test leads on the lead post of the battery, not the cable
terminal end. Using the millivolt or even the milliamp scale, a good
connection should read about 0.01 volts or less.
If one of the battery connections read higher than the others, keep the
test leads on that connection, tighten that connection until the voltage
reading is the same as all the others battery connections.
I used a In.Lb torque wrench on my first installation and torque to the
battery specifications. Then I do the shunt test to see what the voltage
reading is. I than used that as a reference for a quick check of all the
connections using the shunt test.
When installing a new set of batteries, record this reading so you can
used it as a reference for your next test.
After running a EV with new batteries for about 5 miles, it is recommended
to perform this test to see how much the battery connection shrinks back.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John J Januszewski<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:43 PM
Subject: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
Hello folks,
Sorry if this has been answered before. The search feature in the
archive
is tedius at best for finding answers. Type in battery connnections and
just about every post comes up because the word bettery is used in just
about every post. Anyways... The question. Preceded by a statment or
two.
I plan on having two 144V strings of batteries. Each will be two rows of
six positioned so the connections can run pos to neg down one side and up
the other with a disconncect at one end (to split the pack for servicing)
and the two cables coming out the other end to go to Zilla, via
contactors.
With the batts positioned right, the two cables and their connecting
bolts
will be two battery widths apart at the end closest to the controller.
I have read somewhere that this is not a good idea because of the voltage
potential at the one end could cause some kind of arcing problem. Yet,
the
cable connects on my Zilla for the B+ and B- are about an inch apart. If
there were to be a problem with arcing, I would think it would happen
there.
Am I missinterpreting the "potential" problem? Are there other
contributing
factors that I am missing?
Thank You
John J
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not familiar with these chargers. Could they handle charging a 36v
nominal pack or are they all much higher than that? I'd love to have a
good high speed charger for all my 36v loads (*LOTS* of 36v loads).
James
On Thu, 2005-09-22 at 15:44 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Western Sales auctions has at least 10 gould chargers ranging up to 200 volts
> and 50 amps coming from APS.Probaly pennies on a dollar.
> Dennis Berube
>
--
James Jarrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Charlotte Country Day School
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 9/22/05 8:22:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
<< 1.671 second 60-foot time? Like I said, this car should be
capable of high 11s. >>
Good 60ft.John,You would be waxing the CEs 60ft. now D.Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
There were 50v 75 amp chargers too.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm throwing in a PCB for a digital isolated battery shunt using the
EVil bus. It takes in 12v but uses an isolated DC/DC so the shunt
can be placed anywhere on an isolated pack, high or low, or to
measure motor current. The accuracy is down to a few mA, rejects
PWM frequencies, can have its address changed so more than one can
be on the system, and can be calibrated.
Is there any protocol spec though on how the EVil talks to the
devices? I haven't written the software for the protocol.
Hi Danny,
I'm glad you are making something for the bus!
Here is the most advanced description that I know of at the moment.
Things can and will still change.
http://www.aracnet.com/~rmerwin/bms/
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla.
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Meta Bus wrote:
> I have a Vicor-labeled PFC Mini that takes 115/230v AC and outputs
> 300v DC (10 amps). I intend to use it as an overnight charger for
> my 288v gel pack (48 Deka 8G31DT's paralleled pairs, providing
> 195.2 AH at C/20)
>
> Does anyone have info/experience on/with Vicor, or an URL to their
> site (I need docs)?
www.vicr.com
I've used Vicor modules, and they make very good stuff. It is extremely
reliable if used within its ratings.
But that 300v output makes me wonder. Vicor doesn't make any supplies
with outputs over 48vdc. What you have may be a HAM module "front end",
intended to drive external DC/DC modules for lower voltages.
The Vicor HAM module's output is not isolated, and only semi-voltage
regulated. You cannot use it as a battery charger by itself. The HAM
modules are boost converters. They rectify and boost the incoming AC to
approximately 230-400vdc (varies with input AC voltage and output load).
This DC is intended to drive one or more of their isolated DC/DC
modules.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ohnojoe wrote:
> I made a heatsink for my dc/dc converter out of some aluminum
> railing. Because the heatsink is not flush all the way across
> I want to fill in the low spot with some silicone. I have seen
> other components where the silicone is ¼ inch think.
>
> Is what I have seen really silicone or is it something else.
> If it is silicone what type e.g. GE silicone II or something
> completely different? If it is not silicone where do I get it
> band names etc.
The most fundamental requirement for a heatsink is that it have a low
thermal resistance (low resistance to heat flow). If there's a gap
between the hot thing and the heatsink; then machine, file, or sand the
two surfaces to fit as closely together as possible. Anything conducts
heat better than an air gap!
The remaining gap, though smaller, will still have some air in it. Most
heatsink compounds are an attempt to fill this gap with something better
than air. Ideally, you want to fill it with a metal -- they are the best
conductors. Next best are metal oxides.
Silicone compounds by themselves are not very good conductors of heat,
so they are not good for this purpose. Silicone oil, silicone grease, or
silicone rubber are all the wrong materials!
Heatsink compounds are some kind of grease, oil, or glue with a powdered
material mixed in. The POWDER is the heat conductor! The grease, oil, or
glue is just there to keep it in place. The powder can be powdered metal
(if you don't mind it being conductive), a metal oxide, or even sand
(yep, road dust).
"Silicone" is a name trademarked by General Electric -- it does NOT
describe any one material, but rather anything whose sales they feel
would be improved by tacking that name on.
Silicones are basically ordinary hydrocarbon oils, greases, or compounds
in which some of the carbon atoms are replaced with silicon atoms. The
silicon bonds tighter, so the oil or grease or rubber holds together
better at high temperatures. Silicone grease thus gets used as the
binder for some heatsink compounds, but it is not the "active
ingredient".
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
> No matter how ridiculously cheap you make the product there is
> always someone who thinks that it still cost too much for his
> pocket and demand lower price. Even if sold for the cost of
> components alone, still too much.
I heard this described as the "mirror" axiom. Manufacturers and
customers each look in a mirror; they think they are seeing the other
party, but they are really seeing themselves.
The manufacturer thinks all customers are just like himself; very
knowledgeable, looking for the most features, highest performance, best
quality, and have plenty of money. They won't buy something cheap,
because they know it's a bad deal in the long run. They understand all
the products features and tradeoffs.
The customer thinks all suppliers are just like himself, too; looking
for the best "deal" possible. They don't understand all the technology
or features; the supplier is just a salesmen that could be hawking used
cars or toilet paper with equal ease. They buy/sell on price and the
advertised number of features because they don't understand any of the
technical jargon or specifications.
In the end, you get what you expect. Manufacturers only design for, and
sell to customers that fit their mindset of what the "ideal" customer is
like. Buyers only buy from suppliers that fit their mindset of what the
"ideal" supplier is like.
Most suppliers "aim high". They assume customers know more and can
afford more than they really can. They wind up selling small numbers of
high priced units to the upper end of the market.
Most customers "aim low". They expect every supplier is like a used car
dealer, and so buy the product with the most advertised features for the
lowest possible price. They expect it to be junk that barely works, and
will need to be thrown out and replaced in a few years. The few
suppliers that sell this way are rewarded with the largest sales volumes
(but low profit margins).
There's room for both. That's the way the world works. Customers and
suppliers each need to decide in which "camp" they want to operate, and
act accordingly. If you want good stuff, ignore price and concentrate on
performance. If you want it cheap, ignore performance and buy on price.
When Victor or Ed advertise a feature-rich high-quality product, maybe
10% of the list are potential customers. But they will also hear from
the 90% who are *not* likely to be their customers. This is where those
"why don't you make it cheaper?" inquiries come from. There's no sense
arguing with them; they aren't customers. Just tell them where they can
find the products they want.
When Phillipe or others describe "cheap John" methods of doing things,
they will hear complaints from high end suppliers or performance
afficionados. Again, these people aren't his "customers". They already
have better solutions, and don't need a cheaper, inferior way to do it.
But he *is* speaking to those who would rather spend 20% to do 80% of
the job.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
> Zener is only for monitoring battery voltage not for regulation.
> Picking right value and low ppm/°C model result in good precision
> for individual 12V monitoring task. Resistor, zener and LED in
> series is all you need.
>
> The TL431 is an ajustable shunt "precision" regulator...
If your goal is an expanded-scale voltmeter or other circuit that must
accurately measure voltage, a precision reference like the TL431 is
good. They are nominally 2% accurate, and 30ppm/deg.C drift.
If all you are doing is clamping excess battery voltage to promote
equalization, then a cheap old zener is good enough. They are 5% or 10%
accurate, and 500ppm/deg.C drift.
There is no precise clamp voltage for a lead-acid battery; you can use
anything from the gassing threshold (2.37v/cell) to the maximum
equalizing voltage (2.58v/cell). That's a range of 14.2v to 15.5v for a
12v battery.
Very simple battery regulators like Philippe's and mine are useful
because they are cheap, and better than nothing. Expensive systems like
my Battery Balancer and Ed Ang's Early Warning System also have their
place; they do a much better job, and provide better user feedback and
can provide more aggressive corrective measures.
--
Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
reasons.
-- R. Buckminster Fuller
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Got an IP address for the auction? I can't find it.
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:45 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re:Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
Western Sales auctions has at least 10 gould chargers ranging up to 200
volts
and 50 amps coming from APS.Probaly pennies on a dollar.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
- Greetings -
A good discussion wass begun by Lawrence on measuring ac volts and dc volts.
There is a little pesky math that must be included for the dc voltmeter.
If one gets 288 vac using the 10% at each end taps found on some Variacs
from a 240 vac line, there is more voltage to send to the bridge rectifier.
Discounting the voltage drop in the diodes, the rectified and unfiltered
vdc has an rms voltage of 288 volts. Lee has pointed out that the peak is
over 400 volts. However, most dc voltmeters read average voltage. The recti-
fied and unfiltered 288 volt sinusoid (remember it is rectified) has an
average value of 0.90 * 288 = 259 vdc. This is what persuades the ordinary
dc voltmeter.
Hope this helps.
Rhett George
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Lynn,
What type motor and controller are you using?
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:11 PM
Subject: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles in my
EV
> Well I've been meaning to post my emperical battery data for a while,
> and the recent resurgence of the 8V/6V debate pushed me over the edge...
>
> I now have over 47,000 miles in my converted Civic. Car normally uses
> 18 8 volt golf cart batteries for 144 volts. My second set was the US
> 8VGC-HC where I installed two additioal batteries in battery boxes
> behind the front seats, concluded the extra batteries were not worth it.
> Third set was T875's and the fourth (currrent) set the T890's
>
> Below is a summary from actual data taken on my 43 miles commute to
> work, recharge at work, and 43 miles home. 86 miles a day every day
> speeds from stop and go to 65 mph. Battery pack end of life was defined
> as "limping into work with barely enough energy and hoping I can get
> home one more time..." Near the end of each pack life, bad batterys
> were removed, leaving a bigger load on the ones remaining, but could
> usually get 300 to 500 more miles by doing this. Of course if I had a
> shorter distance between charges probabally could have gone a lot more
> miles.
>
> Here is the data summary:
>
> Type US8V-GC US8V-GCHC T875 T890
> Year 2002 2003 2004 2005
> miles 12200 14200 16203 5000 so far
> Average WH/M 215 227 224 205
> Range to 80% 51.4 60 54 57.3
> Initial end trip voltage at 15A 142.5 151 143.5 144
> Final end trip voltage at 15A 136.5 144 138 143 so
> far
> Number of batteries 18 20 18 18
> pounds 1161 1380 1134 1242
> cost 940 1098 1168 1494
> miles per pound 10.51 10.29 14.29 ?
> Miles per dollar (US) 12.98 12.93 13.87 ?
> Cents per mile (US) 0.077 0.077 0.072 ?
>
>
> I've been very happy with all the batteries so far except the
> US8V-GC-HC's. The higher level of plates and acid resulted in greater
> acid leaking from the battery during use. They had a significtly
> stonger oder and acid residue than any of the others.
>
>
> When I get to 50,000 miles I'd write a longer piece telling all the
> interesting incidents.
>
> Happy EV'ing
>
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date: 9/20/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
...
Most suppliers "aim high". They assume customers know more and can
afford more than they really can. They wind up selling small numbers of
high priced units to the upper end of the market.
This is how SAFT operates. Actually, volume is quite high but
no retail customers - all OEMs (Philippe can correct me, but
I don't believe there is a store chain with "SAFT" billboard
you can walk into anf buy couple of STM NiCd modules).
You and I can dislike their pricing policy as much as we want, they
couldn't care less and are alive and well without us.
There's room for both. That's the way the world works. Customers and
suppliers each need to decide in which "camp" they want to operate, and
act accordingly.
Sure. Just don't go to the other camp and complain.
If you want good stuff, ignore price and concentrate on
performance. If you want it cheap, ignore performance and buy on price.
Fair enough.
When Victor or Ed advertise a feature-rich high-quality product, maybe
10% of the list are potential customers. But they will also hear from
the 90% who are *not* likely to be their customers. This is where those
"why don't you make it cheaper?" inquiries come from. There's no sense
arguing with them; they aren't customers. Just tell them where they can
find the products they want.
This always beats me. People who shop for Jaguars and Ferrari's probably
don't ever complain why they are so expensive. By the nature of the
product the price isn't discussed, it is assumed and well understood by
seller and buyer that the cost isn't priority and even bad taste to
haggle.
But People from the "other camp" don't even walk in there, because
obviously they won't buy, but will only complain. In a free world
they can't be disallowed to walk in and you can't make them shut up.
BEst you can do is ignore them and keep your standards for "your"
camp, hoping other customers will finally learn not to bother.
SAFT instituted policy of qualifying customers before selling
their product - this is how they ensure intelligence they hope
for without legal discrimination by jsut arbitrary selecting customers
they like. After all, *anyone* is eligible to be smart or can elect
to learn enough to qualify, right? If people don't it's their
problem then, not SAFT's.
When Phillipe or others describe "cheap John" methods of doing things,
they will hear complaints from high end suppliers or performance
afficionados. Again, these people aren't his "customers". They already
have better solutions, and don't need a cheaper, inferior way to do it.
But he *is* speaking to those who would rather spend 20% to do 80% of
the job.
I understand that. Trouble is, it is rarely that clear cut (20/80),
in the field we're in it is closer to linear. Not quite, but closer.
THere is always customers for 20% of the cost for 20% of performance,
30/30, 50/50 and 99/99. IF it would be 20/80 everywhere, the buying
decision woulf be so much easier and anyone but largest OEMs who
makes >80% performance gadgets would go belly up pretty darn quick
if 80% performing product will always be in the next store for 20% cost.
It is not that simple.
Finally, famous 20%/80% rule makes no sense unless you define 100%/100%
reference point. So saying that $5 node does 80% of the job is
meaningless - we don't know what the 100% of the job is. If it is just
to please customers - $5 is ridiculously high.
--
Victor
'91 ACRX - something different
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow! That is great data to see. What is your total weight with batteries?
-----Original Message-----
From: Rich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000
miles in my EV
Hello Lynn,
What type motor and controller are you using?
Rich
----- Original Message -----
From: "Adams, Lynn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:11 PM
Subject: Real world data on 8 Volt Golf Cart Batteries - or 47,000 miles in
my EV
> Well I've been meaning to post my emperical battery data for a while,
> and the recent resurgence of the 8V/6V debate pushed me over the edge...
>
> I now have over 47,000 miles in my converted Civic. Car normally uses
> 18 8 volt golf cart batteries for 144 volts. My second set was the US
> 8VGC-HC where I installed two additioal batteries in battery boxes
> behind the front seats, concluded the extra batteries were not worth it.
> Third set was T875's and the fourth (currrent) set the T890's
>
> Below is a summary from actual data taken on my 43 miles commute to
> work, recharge at work, and 43 miles home. 86 miles a day every day
> speeds from stop and go to 65 mph. Battery pack end of life was defined
> as "limping into work with barely enough energy and hoping I can get
> home one more time..." Near the end of each pack life, bad batterys
> were removed, leaving a bigger load on the ones remaining, but could
> usually get 300 to 500 more miles by doing this. Of course if I had a
> shorter distance between charges probabally could have gone a lot more
> miles.
>
> Here is the data summary:
>
> Type US8V-GC US8V-GCHC T875 T890
> Year 2002 2003 2004 2005
> miles 12200 14200 16203 5000 so far
> Average WH/M 215 227 224 205
> Range to 80% 51.4 60 54 57.3
> Initial end trip voltage at 15A 142.5 151 143.5 144
> Final end trip voltage at 15A 136.5 144 138 143 so
> far
> Number of batteries 18 20 18 18
> pounds 1161 1380 1134 1242
> cost 940 1098 1168 1494
> miles per pound 10.51 10.29 14.29 ?
> Miles per dollar (US) 12.98 12.93 13.87 ?
> Cents per mile (US) 0.077 0.077 0.072 ?
>
>
> I've been very happy with all the batteries so far except the
> US8V-GC-HC's. The higher level of plates and acid resulted in greater
> acid leaking from the battery during use. They had a significtly
> stonger oder and acid residue than any of the others.
>
>
> When I get to 50,000 miles I'd write a longer piece telling all the
> interesting incidents.
>
> Happy EV'ing
>
>
> Lynn
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.11.3/107 - Release Date: 9/20/2005
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan Stotts wrote:
> Costs me $30 a week to fill it up at $2.xx/gal
>
> 52 weeks in a year = $1,560
Just filled up the truck today. Cost $35 @ $2.59/gal.
A $35 tank per week = $1,820...
$3/gal fuel = ~$40 tank... = $2,080
$4/gal = $54.80 tank(13.7 gal today) = ~$2,850/year..
AGM's will soon be cost competitive with gasoline!
I wonder if people would still balk at the conversion cost if there
was no gasoline available?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello John,
A fiberglass divider between the two long rolls will work great. Have the
divider stick up the height of the fill caps or any venting holes. Could make
them higher the better.
Epoxy paint the fiberglass. I painted my battery boxes, covers and one divider
with gloss white. Sometimes I can see a yellowing above one battery vent or
cap, meaning that battery is venting more than the others. Can see this better
on a white color. Its cleans up very easy.
One time I used 1/4 thick Lexon glass as a divider on all the sides of all the
batteries. The batteries were tight against. I only ran 1/4 inch above the
battery tops and the current track right up and over the Lexon glass dividers.
I use a epoxy coated fiberglass divider in the middle of my battery box, mainly
for supporting the battery box sides together. Instead of the divider edge
ending up only 1/4 inch wide. I attach a 1 inch wide fiberglass flange on top
to act as a barrier like a high voltage porcelain insulation does.
Or you could used a 1/4 to 1/2 inch spacer at the bottoms of divider to keep
the battery about 1/4 to 1/2 inch a way. I used Lexon cauking to put these in.
If you change battery size, you can change these a lot easier. This is what I
did on my batteries that is against the battery box sides.
This made a tight fit. I have a top cover that hinges and clamps down. The
only way these batteries will ever come out, is that if the car is upside down,
the battery cover came off, the pickup box cover would come off it, which I
used in my EV.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: John J Januszewski<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:51 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
Hello Roland,
Thank you for all the info. I have not yet built any part of the battery
tray for the EV yet. I plan on building it all of fiberglass/Kevlar and
epoxy. Most of the car will be composites so metal chassis problems
shouldn't happen. Do you think that running a vertical fiberglass wall down
the middle of the tray, between the batteries, will help the surface tracing
problem? They will all be touching each other via the common "floor" that
they will be sitting on in the tray. The top surfaces can be separated by
vertical walls and a small air gap. I'm trying to avoid having two really
long 2/0 cables coming from the back of the car all the way to the front.
Of course if I have to do it I will but if I can design the batt boxes to
avoid it I would like that.
Thanks again for all the info. I will save this message for when I actually
have something to test.
Regards,
John J
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
To: <[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 10:56 PM
Subject: Re: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
> Hello John,
>
> The distance in free air is not the problem. Its when these string of
> batteries end up with both ends of the strings are together that are
> touching each other.
>
> Do the following test using one battery:
>
> Using a volt meter, measure the voltage of the battery.
>
> Now keeping one lead on a post, move the other lead off the other post and
> making contact on the plastic top next to this post. Read the voltage.
>
> Slide the test lead across the top of the battery closer to the other
> post. Notice that there will be a voltage change from maximum to a
> minimum reading.
>
> If the battery is new and has never been charge or the battery cells never
> vent, you may not get a reading.
>
> Do this test on a older battery that has been charge and cycle many times,
> and you will get a voltage reading. The voltage is tracking across the
> top of the battery.
>
> If you get a reading in the middle of the battery along its edge that is
> half the voltage of the battery, than its time to clean the batteries.
>
> No matter how much you clean it, you will still get a small indication.
>
> Looping the string of 12 volt batteries with 6 batteries per roll, you
> will have 12 volts x 12 batteries = 144 volts between two adjacent
> batteries, NOT GOOD.
>
> Charging these batteries with the two end batteries in the string, will
> increase the tracking from and will arc over.
>
> Also, if your battery pack is in a uninsulated metal battery rack, the
> charging voltage of 150 volts or more will be from any one of the
> batteries to the frame of the battery rack.
>
> The best layout for a string of batteries is to have all the batteries in
> one roll. If that is not possible, than loop back with a air space
> between the rolls.
>
> In my battery pack, the maximum voltage difference is 72 volts between
> only six batteries in the pack of 30. I space these at about 1/4 inch
> inside a insulated battery box.
>
> I used to have a 90 cell battery that was in a epoxy coated aluminum box.
> One time I was charging these cells I notice arcing of the many cells to
> the sides of the box when it was dark. You cannot see this faint small
> arcing in the day light.
>
> So even with my T-145's, they are space, I do the dark test once in a
> while.
>
>
> Battery Connection Test:
>
> In one of my E-mails, I stated do not work on the batteries while it is
> charging. There will be the maximum charger voltage from any one of the
> battery post to the ground frame of the EV if it ground to the same ground
> of a on board charger.
>
> One exception to this, is to do a BATTERY CONNECTION TEST WHILE THE
> CHARGER IS ON. This is very dangerous and you must take extra ordinary
> cautions to do this test. You have to dress up the EV and your self in
> insulation rubber blankets and rubber gloves to do this test. I used to
> work high voltage live over 10,000 volts.
>
> Drape a rubber mat over any metal part of the EV you may be contact in.
> Place another rubber mat over the batteries, except the ones you are going
> to test.
>
> This test, is to check the continuity of the battery connections that go
> from one battery to the next. You will perform a SHUNT TEST by placing
> the test leads of a multimeter in parallel with the connection from one
> battery to the next.
>
> Place the test leads on the lead post of the battery, not the cable
> terminal end. Using the millivolt or even the milliamp scale, a good
> connection should read about 0.01 volts or less.
>
> If one of the battery connections read higher than the others, keep the
> test leads on that connection, tighten that connection until the voltage
> reading is the same as all the others battery connections.
>
> I used a In.Lb torque wrench on my first installation and torque to the
> battery specifications. Then I do the shunt test to see what the voltage
> reading is. I than used that as a reference for a quick check of all the
> connections using the shunt test.
>
> When installing a new set of batteries, record this reading so you can
> used it as a reference for your next test.
>
> After running a EV with new batteries for about 5 miles, it is recommended
> to perform this test to see how much the battery connection shrinks back.
>
> Roland
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: John J Januszewski<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>>
> To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Wednesday, September 21, 2005 5:43 PM
> Subject: Battery Hookup Question (Am I missing something?)
>
>
> Hello folks,
>
> Sorry if this has been answered before. The search feature in the
> archive
> is tedius at best for finding answers. Type in battery connnections and
> just about every post comes up because the word bettery is used in just
> about every post. Anyways... The question. Preceded by a statment or
> two.
>
> I plan on having two 144V strings of batteries. Each will be two rows of
> six positioned so the connections can run pos to neg down one side and up
> the other with a disconncect at one end (to split the pack for servicing)
> and the two cables coming out the other end to go to Zilla, via
> contactors.
> With the batts positioned right, the two cables and their connecting
> bolts
> will be two battery widths apart at the end closest to the controller.
>
> I have read somewhere that this is not a good idea because of the voltage
> potential at the one end could cause some kind of arcing problem. Yet,
> the
> cable connects on my Zilla for the B+ and B- are about an inch apart. If
> there were to be a problem with arcing, I would think it would happen
> there.
>
> Am I missinterpreting the "potential" problem? Are there other
> contributing
> factors that I am missing?
>
> Thank You
>
> John J
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://wsmauctioneers.com/
Good auction. Lots of fleet cars/trucks that work well and are 'cheap'. Lots of
heavy equipment that seems to go for good money. I find the metal getting
expensive, but since the price of fuel is getting high, I don't go up that
often. Get there early for a good parking spot.
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 1:25 PM
Subject: RE: Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
> Got an IP address for the auction? I can't find it.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 12:45 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re:Chargers at Oct.7 auction in Phoenix
>
> Western Sales auctions has at least 10 gould chargers ranging up to 200
> volts
> and 50 amps coming from APS.Probaly pennies on a dollar.
>
> Dennis Berube
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
So I have to ask, is this EWS based on using optocouplers in analog mode
like that schematic shown earlier?
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Lawrence
At 10:05 AM 22/09/05 -0700, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
So far on all combinations of all 5 output screws I get a high of around
200 vac. I'll see later if the range of movement is complete. The two
220vac variacs are exactly synced. Both produce dc through the
bridges. I haven't put them together for added amps yet. trying to
figure out why I'm not getting maximum voltage. Lawrence Rhodes...
OK, 5 taps most likely means you have a variac with two end connections,
two connections a little in from the ends plus a wiper that can go from one
end to the other:
1 2 4 5
| | | |
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@ (windings)
^\
3
If you apply 240VAC (it is a 240V rated varic?) between 1 and 5, and take
the voltage off between 1 and 3, you will be able to get between 0 and
240VAC output (or whatever the input voltage is).
If you apply 240VAC between 1 and 4, and take the voltage off between 1 and
3, you will be able to get between 0 and probably 260VAC output (240VAC
will occur when the wiper of 3 is sitting right on the 4 tap winding).
If you apply 240VAC between 1 and 2, or 4 and 5, you will let the magic
smoke out unless the fuse goes first. If you apply voltage between anywhere
and 3, when you get them close together, you will have a similar situation.
When you full-wave (4-diodes in this instance) rectify AC onto a battery,
you end up with the peak voltage of the waveform, less the voltage drop
across the rectifier - others have described this.
Hope this helps
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In fact no it's not another LED voltmeter or it will become complexe and too
costy, add "complexe to read" for the task, all opposite to what i want.
It's just an idiot LED trio with 14,8V level indicator (green= well charged
and playing in equalizing zone) 12,2V (orange color =charge needed at rest,
50% discharged level if in use ) and 11V (red blinking LED "you are near
hurting me stop immediatly and charge" alarm).
I fast designed this for rental use on a rapid charge slots/rapid swap
battery system i invented.
Max 5 sec swap time between vehicle to charger slots and "vice et versa"
including walking 2meters between them :^)
For convenience the batteries boxes needed a small cheap monitor and an
effective (10Amax) clamping voltage circuit,
i charge AGM type at 2C with high power supply in a fixed voltage/constant
current mode so i choose to clamp at 14,2V not hurting them during
balancing.
Slow equalizing full charge is made during night with individual smart
charger.
Just to let you know i first started with an expensive micro based volt/amp
/hour counter with 2X 16 lines LCD which turn to be...unreadable :^)
3leds was better solution here and opto not needed either because of low
voltage...
Sure i love the 90/10 rule: 90% goal results with 10% work :^)
No offense, keep the good job Ed, you find your market place, a good price
is just a mind's vision but please don't forget 80% people preocupation.
friendly,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 12:08 AM
Subject: Re: AIR Lab's Early Warning System
> Philippe Borges wrote:
> > Zener is only for monitoring battery voltage not for regulation.
> > Picking right value and low ppm/°C model result in good precision
> > for individual 12V monitoring task. Resistor, zener and LED in
> > series is all you need.
> >
> > The TL431 is an ajustable shunt "precision" regulator...
>
> If your goal is an expanded-scale voltmeter or other circuit that must
> accurately measure voltage, a precision reference like the TL431 is
> good. They are nominally 2% accurate, and 30ppm/deg.C drift.
>
> If all you are doing is clamping excess battery voltage to promote
> equalization, then a cheap old zener is good enough. They are 5% or 10%
> accurate, and 500ppm/deg.C drift.
>
> There is no precise clamp voltage for a lead-acid battery; you can use
> anything from the gassing threshold (2.37v/cell) to the maximum
> equalizing voltage (2.58v/cell). That's a range of 14.2v to 15.5v for a
> 12v battery.
>
> Very simple battery regulators like Philippe's and mine are useful
> because they are cheap, and better than nothing. Expensive systems like
> my Battery Balancer and Ed Ang's Early Warning System also have their
> place; they do a much better job, and provide better user feedback and
> can provide more aggressive corrective measures.
> --
> Humanity is acquiring all the right technology for all the wrong
> reasons.
> -- R. Buckminster Fuller
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
