EV Digest 4899
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
by Michael Berding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Subject: Re: Dune Buggy Weight - conversion-Dennis Berube buggy.
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Honda Insight DC-DC converter on Ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Honda Insight DC-DC converter on Ebay
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Series Motor Field / Alternate drive systems (long)
by Jim Husted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: odysseybatteries
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: odysseybatteries
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Pictures of the Saturn
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Stan Helton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Used charger - what to look for, what goes wrong
by Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Zilla manual
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Adapter Plate Methods
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Dave & Deb" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Pictures of the Saturn
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Racing Clutch (was RE: Adapter Plate Methods
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Dune Buggy Weight - Ametek-RotronFans
by Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another current sensor option
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Riddle me this (newbie)....Thanks for the replies
by Stan Helton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....
by "a.k. howard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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unsubscribe [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Sorry list and especially Dennis, that email was
supposed to be addressed to Dennis.
I thought the list stripped attachments?
Rod
--- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> sorry about that Dennis.
> I know those aren't desert tires, but what where you
> doing out there?
> Just shows how far you've come since the car.
> Here's the picture.
> Can I send it to Mike for the EVAlbum?
> Rod
>
> --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > In a message dated 11/11/05 6:57:27 PM Pacific
> > Standard Time,
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> > << Jimmy,
> > I noticed Ametek-Rotron as a sponser on your
> > vehicle.
> > Did they contribute a fan or blower? Just
> curious,
> > I
> > work at Ametek and would provide some free parts
> > for
> > other EV'rs. I also worked for GE when they
> where
> > providing 9" motors and EVT15 controls. I think
> > this
> > is what Dennis Berube had in his sand buggy, I
> > still
> > have the 8x10 picture he sent me when I worked at
> > GE.
> > Whatever happened to that EV Dennis (if your
> > reading).
> > Maybe I should scan the picture for the EValbulm
> if
> > it
> > isn't there already.
> >
> > --- Jimmy Argon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >>
> > >>>>Knife in my side SANDBUGGY?...That was the 1st
> > Current Eliminator
> > dragster.That 9inch GE was a great motor but I did
> > lift a bar at very hi speed.
> > Dennis Berube
> >
> >
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Correction 55amps. LR.......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: Honda Insight DC-DC converter on Ebay
55 watts, that 4.5 amps at 12 volts. That's not enough for the lights at
night much less the heaater blower etc. To me, not enough.
Mark Grasser
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: Honda Insight DC-DC converter on Ebay
I've noticed a lot of Iota powersupplies being used now. With the Iota
you get a warranty, can be used unmodified & you can get them with
55watts of power for 90 bucks. I've run the standard unit up to 180v(by
accident). This Insight unit is much heavier. I think the disadvantages
outweigh the advantages unless you can get one from the junkyard & they
don't know what it is. Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 11, 2005 8:15 PM
Subject: Re: Honda Insight DC-DC converter on Ebay
Hello to All.
Ricky Suiter wrote:
I believe these are about a 90 amp output. They have enough power to
power the rear windshield heater, headlight, wipers, electric windows,
stereo, the rest of the car, hvac blower motor etc. all at once with
some extra capacity. Perhaps John Wayland will chime in here, he knows
about what overhead they have beyone the stock loads for powering an
amp.
It's rated at 75 amps and is made by TDK. It's a pretty tough unit and
can withstand over currents well.
It weighs about 15 lbs.
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 120vac version has a max 190v spike protection and a 90v brownout
protection. That's why they work over a wide range of voltages. .
LR......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ricky Suiter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 10:22 AM
Subject: Re: Honda Insight DC-DC converter on Ebay
I think he ment 55 amps. The smallest one they make is 15 amps and they go
all the way on up to a 90 amp one. I am still woundering just what input
range the IOTA's can take. My 220vac version has been running for a few
months straight on my 144 volt pack and I've ran it down close to nominal,
plus drop it even more under load and it never seems to have let up. I keep
expecting it to break but it won't. We'll see what happens when I put some
decent stereo equipment to it.
Mark Grasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:55 watts, that 4.5 amps at 12
volts. That's not enough for the lights at
night much less the heaater blower etc. To me, not enough.
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
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Hello again
Both Lee and Tom are right. Some motors are filled to capacity with field
coils while others have almost no field coils to speak of. Three things
dictate how much coil mass one can stuff into a motor.
The first is pole shoe width and length.
The second is housing diameter and length.
The third is leaving enough room to fit a terminal connection. Some motors
have no room left in the housing and so the terminal is brought up into the
commentator end plate.
Now on to Jeffs question about modifying an ADC with sep-ex coils. I dont
see why you couldnt adapt the motor to run this way. Many golf cart and
forklift motors are being wound this way, and there is nothing special or
different in the way the armatures are wound. In fact many aspects of how a
motor runs are dictated by its field coils. Many Prestolite motors were either
12 / 24 or 24 / 36 volt with only a coils swap as the difference.
Wire size and turns are not the only things that effect coil / armature
relationships. How the fields are plumbed play a key role also. Jay Donnaways
motor is plumbed to be operated in either series or parallel.
In series the motor runs 1200 RPM @ 18 amps 12 volts, 0 load.
In parallel the motor runs 1850 RPM @ 30 amps @ 12 volts, 0 load.
Every EV motor Ive seen so far has been plumbed parallel, which gives you
higher speed, but less torque. Jays motor should put to rest whether going to
series will be beneficial or not. I believe that being able to switch the
fields to series would benefit those that face long or steep uphill drives.
Even if one could only get a 10 % improvement would that not be the same as
what some are getting out of regen? What I do know is that Prestolite used a
two speed motors (motors wired for both series and parallel) for years. If you
were going up a ramp the unit stayed in series as switching it over to parallel
would bog down the motor as torque dropped and the amps would skyrocket. I
believe this applies the same for anyone facing the same issues. Another
application example I could use would be someone who has a lower voltage motor
than what they would like. They could re-plumb the fields to series reducing
the motors RPM at X current resulting in a motor able to hand!
le the
higher voltage with improved torque. The biggest perks here would be it is a
lot cheaper to re-plumb than it is to wind new coils, anyways time will tell
and I look forward to seeing Jays results.
Jeff Shanab and John Westland have both posted about Siamese motor set ups. I
was able to hook up with Wayland as I posted earlier and he was able to share
with me his delight with how well the twins are holding up. John and I are way
passed needing to stroke each other, so it was great to hear the good report
card. He did let me know that there was some arcing with the new brush set I
replaced after the Woodburn zap, and that the new set has finished seating and
has developed a good patina and the arcing has gone away. Anyway we had some
time to talk about the twin vs. single vs. other multi-motor options. Ive
seen enough cars and their motors to see which motors are happy and which are
not. Bottom line is Waylands setup is hard to argue against.
One thing to consider for those looking at a dual setup is you better plan on
adding some batteries to feed that second half or its all for naught. Ive
had the pleasure of following (if you can call it that) Wayland to PIR twice
now. Lets just say those 16 miles are not driven at efficient speeds, lol. So
one could imagine that if the gearing was changed and amperes kept down a WZ
configured daily would see good range with double the punch when needed, hehehe.
Jeff gave me a call the other day and we were able to talk about a number of
things. The first thing concerning my next twin set-up is that the next set
will need to have some things addressed. The biggest improvement would be in
designing a splined shaft and broached armature setup. This would allow the
owner to change out the center bearing or repair an armature without major
issues, basically make it more user friendly. I questioned Jeff quite a bit
about his EV. His basic feeling was that the single motor delivered around ½
of what he wants. A dual motor set up would be a very viable option verses
going to a larger motor. By staying with smaller diameter motors you benefit
with quicker rotation. Larger comms seem to have an issue with higher RPMs
one could argue also. This leads me to the fact that Ive been contacted by a
number of those who have blown out their 9 inch comms. I had the idea of
using a comm. from an 8 inch armature on a 9 inch motor. If I ca!
n get a
smaller comm. with the same bar count this might allow a stronger comm. to be
used. Now you would lose some amp rating of the comm. but I feel that the pros
would out way the cons here. You would have to retro-fit a new brush ring in
addition but even this would save money vs. blowing your motor up. Again just
another idea Ive had as I learn from you all where the weak links lie with
real world applications.
I look forward to putting together a nice Warp vs. ADC post for you all, but it
will take me a day or two to put it all together and ready for a posting.
I guess thats it for now.
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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Bob and Steve and all, Oh, my arm is being twisted! Yes, the Odyssey's
look good on the website, and so far I cannot find any reason why I
shouldn't use them in my Honda. The model pc1200t is even more attractive
than the date I had last night. www.odysseybatteries.com I would guess
that rating of 44ah is not far off from the *actual* capacity of the Orbital
34’s listed at 55ah. Plus they are said to be happier at greater DOD than
the spiral cell optima or orbitals. From what I read in odyssey’s Charging
Recommendations my PFC20B could do okay with them. The timing is right, my
next door neighbor is a dealer, and my battery compartments are under
construction. If nobody advises otherwise I am ready.
I welcome feedback! Thanks, Richard
> Don who just got a 13" net gain motor is now looking at batteries for his
> s-10 project . I've never used these but they sure look good for the web
> page , and a 36 mo free replacement . up to this point I have been
> advising the excide orbitals steve clunn
>
>> Oh I forgot to ask if you found out anything on www.odysseybatteries.com
> model pc1200t .
> 44ah , 78 res, 38.2lbs. $119.52, free shipping for 25 or more.
>
> peukert number 1.0822 , pc1200t , 500-80% dod cycles, 36 mo replacement
> free. 8 to 12 year design life.
> '' '' '' '' 1.101 exide 34xcd
> '' '' '' '' 1.1085 optima d750s
> Hi Steve an' All;
Talked to Don the other day. The Oddesies sound like an EVers dream?
THREE year gaurantee?Bet that won't last long when the first murdered packs
start coming back<g>!Are they orbital style?
OK who's gunna take the plunge? Seeya Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
They look like regular starting batteries, not deep cycle, which means they
will not last long in standard EV use. Even if you can get them replaced
under warranty, that seems like a bit of a pain. Maybe I'm missing
something though.
damon
From: "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: odysseybatteries
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:05:11 -0800
Bob and Steve and all, Oh, my arm is being twisted! Yes, the Odyssey's
look good on the website, and so far I cannot find any reason why I
shouldn't use them in my Honda. The model pc1200t is even more attractive
than the date I had last night. www.odysseybatteries.com I would guess
that rating of 44ah is not far off from the *actual* capacity of the
Orbital
34s listed at 55ah. Plus they are said to be happier at greater DOD than
the spiral cell optima or orbitals. From what I read in odysseys Charging
Recommendations my PFC20B could do okay with them. The timing is right, my
next door neighbor is a dealer, and my battery compartments are under
construction. If nobody advises otherwise I am ready.
I welcome feedback! Thanks, Richard
> Don who just got a 13" net gain motor is now looking at batteries for
his
> s-10 project . I've never used these but they sure look good for the web
> page , and a 36 mo free replacement . up to this point I have been
> advising the excide orbitals steve clunn
>
>> Oh I forgot to ask if you found out anything on
www.odysseybatteries.com
> model pc1200t .
> 44ah , 78 res, 38.2lbs. $119.52, free shipping for 25 or more.
>
> peukert number 1.0822 , pc1200t , 500-80% dod cycles, 36 mo replacement
> free. 8 to 12 year design life.
> '' '' '' '' 1.101 exide 34xcd
> '' '' '' '' 1.1085 optima d750s
> Hi Steve an' All;
Talked to Don the other day. The Oddesies sound like an EVers dream?
THREE year gaurantee?Bet that won't last long when the first murdered packs
start coming back<g>!Are they orbital style?
OK who's gunna take the plunge? Seeya Bob
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--- Begin Message ---
Beautiful job Ricky! Please tell me about your underhood aluminum component
box. Did you have it made or is it off the shelf?
Thanks, Richard
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--- Begin Message ---
OK, so I am new to this EV thing, but have wanted to get into it for a long
time. Most of the discussion on this list is over my head, but I'm gaining
slowly...
So here's a stupid question...(and I realize my example is painted with broad
strokes)
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery pack
needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a month on
fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my Honda Civic, I'd
be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand that
there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs with ICEs
(oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly speaking, I'm better
off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
longer?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
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I have an opportunity to buy a used Russco charger. Is
it a bad idea to buy a used charger? What goes wrong
with them? What should I look for?
Thanks, Ken
1986 Scirocco... soon
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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Hi Jody,
Otmar already has the manual online in both PDF and HTML.
See the Installation Manual section of
http://cafeelectric.com/products/zilla/index.html
The problem is not so much the accessibility of the manual, but the
ability for the users of the Zilla to expand the manual as they uncover
more detailed information.
A case in point is the recent discussion about cooling your Zilla.
There was some excellent info about the physics behind cooling, the
effect of coolant flow rate, size of radiator, size of reservoir, which
12v DC pumps are suitable and why.
This information is stored in the EV list archive, but it is not
particularly accessible to newbies (or even oldbies who are considering
changing to a Zilla). It is in the form of a couple of threads of
discussion mixed in with dozens of other threads about all sorts of
different things.
Now if Otmar had a wiki for the manual, those who are interested (i.e.
one of the participants in the discussion) could update it with whatever
results.
E.g. Such-and-such tried this pump from a computer cooling system - it
only lasted this long because the bearings can't handle bouncing in a
car. Somebody else has been successfully using this other 12V pump for a
long time now - it's a bit noisy but very reliable.
This info would now be readily available to anyone that needs it.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)
Sent: Friday, 11 November 2005 11:03 PM
To: '[email protected]'
Subject: RE: Zilla manual
Why not just put each chapter in PDF format? There are plenty of
software
available to do it in pdf format and everyone has the ability to print
them
exactly as shown on the screen.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Nov 12, 2005, at 12:45 PM, Stan Helton wrote:
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the
battery pack needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending
around $140 a month on fuel, not including what it costs to charge.
Compared to my Honda Civic, I'd be spending much more on an EV than I
would on gas, no?
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I
understand that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions)
and other costs with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $
standpoint, roughly speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic.
Until gas prices hit the break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they
last longer?
I don't think you will not find the cost of batteries to be that high,
unless you are talking about a fairly large pack of AGMs. The
economical route for EVs is a pack of flooded 6v lead - say 20 of them.
They can last 15k miles pretty reliably if cared for. That is about 9
cents per mile in battery life (28mpg +/-.) Then you have to consider
the electricity at the wall to charge them.
With the ICE you have to look at the regular oil changes and scheduled
service costs, plus fuel.
I would guess that if you are the type that makes lots of 2 to 4 mile
trips the EV is likely cheaper. Since I live in the middle of a city of
100,000 people that describes me. I cringe when I start up my Pickup to
drive to work (3.5 miles) only to let it sit for 9 hours to give it
another cold start and a short trip home. I change the oil because 6
months is up, never because of the miles driven. I know that type of
use is bad for it and will increase life costs, where an EV loves that
type of duty.
For both the ICE and EV I have left out engine/ motor rebuild costs.
The EV motor will be much cheaper; but few people keep a vehicle that
long.
I don't think that very many of us here drive an EV to save money.
There are lots of other differing reasons, but that could quickly
become off topic.
Paul "neon" G.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00020.jpg
>
Great elec motor mount!
If I understand it correctly it is just two pieces of alum that are joined by
two hex bolts, threads are in the bottom part. The wings on the bottom part
connect to the motor mounts on the frame. Correct?
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
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Stan,
I'm new to this too but I do have an EV now and just yesterday I bought
new batteries, seven at $90 each, $630. This is a small pack, my car is
small and it's range will be quite short maybe 12-15 miles between
charges. But it suits my needs.
Sure you can spend $5000 for a battery pack it depends on the number and
type of batteries. I am probably at the extreme opposite end of the
scale.
But this might give you an idea how broad the scale is.
You are right you won't necessarily save $$. But no one I know who drives
an electric car does it just for $$ savings. There's a coolness factor
that may take a change of attitude/perception to fully appreciate.
If you are indeed serious about going electric first take a good look at
your driving needs and be open to changing some habits and conceptions.
Once you know your needs you can put a more accurate and appropriate $$
figure on your driving cost.
My needs are back and forth to the carpool lot, the grocery store, the
hardware store, the library, and various other errands all within 5 miles
of home. For that I don't need Ferarri or a Suburban. So I have a 2
seater Honda that tops out at 50mph.
Dave
> OK, so I am new to this EV thing, but have wanted to get into it for a
> long time. Most of the discussion on this list is over my head, but I'm
> gaining slowly...
>
> So here's a stupid question...(and I realize my example is painted with
> broad strokes)
>
> If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery
> pack needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a
> month on fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my
> Honda Civic, I'd be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
>
> IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand
> that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs
> with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly
> speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the
> break-even point...
>
> Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
> longer?
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>
>
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Custom made. I got extremely lucky, there is an industrial air conditioning
shop around the corner from the shop where I was working on the car and we
happened to know them. One of the head guys there is a freakin master sheet
metal guy. The battery boxes in the rear are alluminum as well, the rear most
being 1/8" thick. I drew out what I wanted and took the metal to him and he
cut, bent and welded them for me. They have huge hydraulic sheet metal shears
and brakes plus all sorts of nice welders (including one that was hard wired in
to some serious 3 phase power). The box under the hood has the lid that just
sets right on top and just latches on one side.
So, think I should polish that box?
Richard Rau <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Beautiful job Ricky! Please tell me about your underhood aluminum component
box. Did you have it made or is it off the shelf?
Thanks, Richard
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--- Begin Message ---
At 12:45 PM 12/11/05 -0800, Stan Helton wrote:
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery
pack needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a
month on fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my
Honda Civic, I'd be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand
that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs
with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly
speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the
break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
longer?
Hi Stan.
Yes, you are missing something, several things. Before the fuel price hikes
recently the situation seemed to be as follows:
USA, cheap fuel, not-so-cheap electricity, seems to be best world price for
batteries (even those not made in the USA), need to be smart in your EV use
to do much better than break even.
Australia (where I am), fuel twice the price of USA, electricity cheaper,
batteries more expensive (about 1/3 more)
Europe and UK, expensive fuel (twice that of USA), expensive electricity,
batteries about on par with Australia.
Now the fuel prices have hiked, as long as the battery prices have not
hiked with it, then with an EV you should be ahead in the USA.
Price of batteries - My truck has 20 Orbital batteries, at 18kg each
(39lbs). This is 360kg, or 792lbs of batteries. In the USA they are around
$100 each, in Australia equivalent to $140US is a good price. So if you
spent US$5000 on batteries, you'd have 50 Orbitals weighing 900kg/1980lbs,
and need a substantial vehicle to put them in.
You are currently spending $1680 per year on fuel, plus oil, radiator
coolant, mechanics wages, filters, and as the vehicle gets older will be
cam belts, exhaust, radiator re-core, oops it cracked the head...
For you $1680 per year you could be running an 192V orbital-powered car and
replace the batteries every year for the same money as your current fuel
bill - although your consumption of tyres may increase ;^)
With a wet-cell powered vehicle you'd have less available zip but (provided
you didn't abuse them) more range and longer life for the same money.
Pros of an EV:
No stink after you drive away (we no longer park our ICE cars inside, as
the stink of start-up drifts through the house from the garage downstairs -
which gives me space to work on the EV).
No visits to fuel suppliers
Much reduced maintenance
Often simple systems that most people should be able to learn to maintain
If it attracts you - better off-the-line acceleration
Can have an instant heater for cabin heat/defrost
Cons of an EV
Not as much range as an ICE without bleeding edge batteries and a price tag
to suit
Having to remember to plug it in as you get out (gee that's hard - just ask
anyone who suffers to plug in their 'phone or lap-top..)
Almost unavailable as a manufactured and manufacturer-supported vehicle
Fewer people who understand them - so there are bad conversions out there
by people who knew enough to make one go, but not be a good one. Also few
people who understand them so you often are forced to do your own maintenance.
So it is a trade-off of what you need to do with the vehice, and can you do
your own maintenance (and a good conversion in the first place). If you can
claim full depreciation for a new vehicle and not as much for a conversion
then there is a powerful incentive to not have an EV, since you will be
hard pressed to find a new EV.
Hope this helps
James
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--- Begin Message ---
One can easily spend more for owning and operating an EV than for a
gasoline or diesel powered vehicle. I believe that very few people ever
save a dime by owning and operating an EV. Forget about saving
money; find other reasons to justify having an EV
Your estimate that your battery pack will cost $5000 and need replacing
every three years may or may not be accurate. Battery cost and life can
and do vary widely.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Helton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2005 12:45 PM
Subject: Riddle me this (newbie)....
OK, so I am new to this EV thing, but have wanted to get into it for a
long time. Most of the discussion on this list is over my head, but I'm
gaining slowly...
So here's a stupid question...(and I realize my example is painted with
broad strokes)
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery
pack needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a
month on fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my
Honda Civic, I'd be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand
that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs
with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly
speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the
break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
longer?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I must have benn told 100 times that this is not a street clutch, that
it can't be slipped. Road racers slip the tires then back off the gas to
let the tires "hook-up". I figured I wouldn't need to slip the clutch
off the line in an EV so I would be ok.
well....
The first time I shifted, i forgot it was in there, and the driveline
rang like I had hit a bad pothole. With onlo .100 throw I had to learn
to let it out a little softer and it was ok.
but...
my warp 9 is out and has been sent to jim at hi-torque electric. I
over revved it during a shift and exploded the comm.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00022.jpg
Lots of things may of contributed to my blowing it up, it happened so
fast that i am still in disbelief. I am researching the following.
1) stupidity of installer who thought he could wait tell next month
to buy speed sensor.
2) The assumtion that it had a steel com in there because the claims
made about the motor sounded so good, there are mainly 2 manufacures who
build comms and the term "industrial" means steel comm to them. A chnge
in market that took the once common steel comms and replaced them with
cheaper molded comms, thus makeing steel comms into rare, expensive, beasts.
3) not enough banding in the riser area for even 1 slight over-rev
4) 2nd gear @60mph is 6000 rpm in that car, I may have been there
before the shift
5 no power steering or alternator or flywheel to slow the climb in
rpm, allowing it to blow during the shift when the throttle hesitated
it's return.
6 Curtis potbox is not suffient to return the throttle if there is
sticktion on the cable.
7 new 288V battery pack and a zilla 1k with a n00b and no load, Not
enough time to react, let alone thing about how to react.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> From: Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> Jimmy,
> I noticed Ametek-Rotron as a sponser on your
> vehicle.
> Did they contribute a fan or blower? Just curious,
> I
> work at Ametek and would provide some free parts for
> other EV'rs. I also worked for GE when they where
> providing 9" motors and EVT15 controls.
Rod,
I did get EG&G Rotron to sponsor some fans - actually
for the
CoolFuel Roadtrip. They gave me (2) C011067 12vdc fans
back in 2003. They were just merging with
Ametek and it was either these fans or (1) c-011339
blower. They told me these were the only 12v they had
at the time and I needed them quick.
EG&G also sponsored some 28vdc fans back in '94 or '95
(they had no 12vdc at the time). I use
these fans in the ghia with a Lambda 28v power supply
I use as a dc to dc converter. In both applications I
use a plenum. The BLDC blowers you mentioned in an
earlier list look really good and I may try to get one
for my '81 Jet Electrica rebuild. Were these blowers
originally designed by Ametek before they merged with
EG&G?
Ametek-Rotron was really helpful and it is great that
they will sponsor EV'rs, slapping a sticker on the car
is a small price to pay, I am glad to do it.
The "Voltbuggy" is in the "Cool Fuel Roadtrip" episode
12, whistling EVT15 and all.
http://www.ecotrekker.com/
Jimmy Argon
"mario"
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--- Begin Message ---
I believe that very few people ever save a dime by owning and
operating an EV.
Respectfully Tom, that's nonsense. I have saved thousands, and many
others have too. EV cars, trucks and vans CAN be expensive IF your
requirements include high speed and long range, but smaller EV bikes,
scooters, and so forth can provide excellent short range car replacement
duties and will save you tons of money, not to mention the fact that an
EV/human hybrid like an electric bicycle provides healthy benefits as
well.
While I personally champion the smaller EVs, I know of many people who
do short range EV cars on a budget in order to save $$. I think perhaps
the best example of this is Lawrence Rhodes. He keeps a keen eye on the
surplus markets and picks up his EV components for a song, building a
number of very cost effective cars, vans, and so forth.
Serious drag racers typically invest serious money into their EVs. These
guys are not looking for something cost effective. They are looking for
higher power levels, stronger components, and faster launches. All of
these are factors that you don't HAVE to have in a townie/short trip
EV.
You are doing exactly the right thing. Ask around, watch for deals, and
educate yourself to the possibilities and you can build a cost
effective, money saving EV.
Hope this helps!
-Ken Trough
Admin - V is for Voltage Magazine
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Off the top of my head, $5000 sounds way too high. I'd expect less than
$3000, easily.
Stan Helton wrote:
OK, so I am new to this EV thing, but have wanted to get into it for a long
time. Most of the discussion on this list is over my head, but I'm gaining
slowly...
So here's a stupid question...(and I realize my example is painted with broad
strokes)
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery pack
needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a month on
fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my Honda Civic, I'd
be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand that
there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs with ICEs
(oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly speaking, I'm better
off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the break-even point...
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
longer?
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Sure; this can work. It's one of several approaches. The challenges to
building a shunt amplifier are:
1. The voltage from the shunt is very low. A 500amp 50mv shunt only
produces 100 microvolts per amp. Most opamps have input offset
voltage errors considerably larger than this. So, you have to
use an opamp with an ultra low input offset voltage.
Use an AD8551 as pre-amp:
Offset: 1uV (10 uV, max) Thats 10mA resolution WRT to your example.
Drift: 5nV/C (yes, nano)
Digikey: $2.32 for qty 1
2. Noise levels in an EV are very high. The "DC" current flowing
from the batteries actually has a considerable amount of high
frequency noise that is quite large. So the amplifier needs a
very high resistance to noise.
Assuming you're referring to CMRR: 130dB for AD8551.
3. The automotive environment is pretty harsh. There are large
temperature variations, water, dirt, shock and vibration, etc.
Unless you use very stable and accurate parts, the readings will
drift all over the place.
Temperature drift is very low for AD8551. Water and dirt can be kept
out with a decent enclosure. Shock and vibration can be dealt with
using conformal coating or even potting. Couple the output of this to a
high-quality A/D as Mr. Miller pointed out if floating is a concern.
4. We expect stuff in cars to last 10 years or more. You can't build
a shunt amplifier like most "throw-away" consumer electroncs; it
needs to keep working and be stable and accurate for a long time.
That's especially difficult in such a harsh environment.
I'm not building consumer electronics. I'm building stuff that I want
to use. I'm merely offering this as a suggestion to the more
technically inclined on the list.
5. Isolation is just another problem to deal with. It's hard to
transfer an analog voltage across an isolation barrier, so most
designers convert to digital, and then transfer this across the
isolation barrier.
Hence an isolation amplifier. Best of both worlds: isolated, analog,
and can be used to drive a meter and/or routed to an ADC for data capture.
If all you're doing is data capture, then by all means, do A/D on the HV
side of the isolation and send serial digital.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks to all who replied to my post...
A little more info about my specific scenario... My daily commute is 20 miles
each way. I have no place to plug in at work. Other than that, an EV would be
suitable for all my around town needs. I'd only need the ICE for trips to the
in-laws, etc.
I'm thinking about converting my 1998 Honda Civic hatchback. I'm not sure it
can be done and fit my commuter needs. But, best case scenario I can somehow
fit 144v-worth of batteries to ensure I can get back and forth to work (big
hill too). I have gathered that 6v batteries provide more range than the
equivalent in 12v, true? Anyway, I was looking around online and noticing that
6v AGM batteries at some places were more than $200 a piece. So, anyway $5000
was another worst-case estimate. I really have no solid idea how long
batteries last, so...
As far as maintainence on my current vehicle, I've had it since '98 and it's
got 103,000 miles on it. Had it tuned twice, maybe? Maybe only once. Other
than that oil change is $30 probably every 3 months. Never had anything else
done. Oh yeah, new tires. I'll spend probably $60/mo on gas.
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: Stan Helton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Riddle me this (newbie)....
Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:45:08 -0800 (PST)
OK, so I am new to this EV thing, but have wanted to get into it for a long
time. Most of the discussion on this list is over my head, but I'm gaining
slowly...
Greetings,
So here's a stupid question...(and I realize my example is painted with
broad strokes)
There is no such thing as a stupid question.
If I get an EV, and the battery pack runs around $5000, and the battery
pack needs to be replaced every 3 years, then I am spending around $140 a
month on fuel, not including what it costs to charge. Compared to my Honda
Civic, I'd be spending much more on an EV than I would on gas, no?
I would say about $1500 for a good starter pack of flooded cells, t-125
or even t-145 equivalent.
IOW, no one is actually saving money by owning an EV, yet. I understand
that there are other reasons go electric (zero emissions) and other costs
with ICEs (oil changes, etc.) but from a pure $ standpoint, roughly
speaking, I'm better off with the Honda Civic. Until gas prices hit the
break-even point...
I cant' say for sure whether your situation will save you money. There
are many ways to spin the numbers. There are many reasons I like EVs. My
number one reason? Theyre fun.
Am I missing something? Are batteries cheaper than I think? Do they last
longer?
It depends on the type of batteries you buy, the temperature, how well you
take care of them.
Regards, A.K. Howard, Las Vegas, NV.
--- End Message ---
