EV Digest 4917
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) White Zombie, Lost, in Dreamland
by "Chuck Hursch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
by "Dave" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: EV insurance
by "August Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: ACP twin motor setup
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: ACP twin motor setup
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Vanadium Redox battery
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Dual motor setup
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Range Extending
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
18) BB600 list
by Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Smart Car crash test video
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: BB600 list
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: unveiling the Gamera Nine
by Richard Bebbington <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: VW Passat for conversion?
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Hercules LT vs Bridgestone B381 on an Electavan.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Range Extending
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Range extending
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Range extending
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Range Extending
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: ACP twin motor setup
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Advice on motor brushes
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
32) EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by bruce bogusz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
33) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Segue to Dreamland... On a recent visit to the City of Portland,
John Wayland, the Plasma Boy himself, loaned me the one and only
White Zombie, for, shall we say, a Portland Ampabout ;>). Under
partly cloudy autumn northwest skies, it was a quick drive to
downtown, feeling underfoot that electric thrust delivered up by
that Go-Zilla Z2K and siamesed 8" motor. After leaving several
amp-hours burnt into the streets of Portland (shades of Streets
of San Francisco?), the time came for sating the ol' appetite at
one of the luscious eateries recommended by the Plasma Boy. Not
up to snuff on the downtown Portland scene, I amp-ed down the
Zombie into a parking lot, cruising silently and effortlessly
into a space in one of the back corners of downtown. I thought I
was close by to the Wayland eatery, but nooo, it took a bit of
effort and wondering around downtown on foot to find the place.
Eventually it was found, signaled by the hearty aromas flowing
down the street, and the loud music with its bass flowing out the
door and rockin' the street. It was filled to the gills with the
beautiful people of Portland. The manager was out on the floor,
and I asked him, "Do you know of Wayland, the Plasma Boy?". His
eyes lit up, and he nodded in acknowledgement. But this
establishment was so packed that I never did get an order placed,
and pretty soon that northwest fall sun was sinking fast towards
the horizon. I wanted to get John's car back to him before the
street scuz and underlife got a hold of the electric-mobile.
But oh nooo! I was walking, then running, up the streets and
aroun' the blocks (where is it?!), the wind blowin' down the
street canyons kicking up the trash and dust... Brrr, cold!
"I'll never find the Zombie down here at street level!" So I
jumped into a phonebooth and transformed into... Spiderman!
"Now I can speed up the side of the tallest downtown Portland
building and spy that car from afar!" Somehow I ended up
climbing up the side of a multi-story glassed-in restaurant with
flying ceilings and an attached levee, one of many, that somehow
guarded the City of Rivers (shades of 'Orleans and Katrina??). I
triggered something as everyone watched, for the wall started to
pull back and the water flowed forth, pouring into the city.
Yikes! Jump onto the next building, hands sticking like glue to
the side. We will find the Beast yet, but the sun is setting
fast and it's nowhere to be found! Just then...
Ka-boing! The alarm radio goes off. "It's KFOG..." The
Reality Check. Welcome back to San Francisco and the Bay Area.
I sit up in bed as the blood pressure settles down, the sweat
drying off my hands. The Plasma Boy's White Zombie is lost in
Dreamland... Will the Zombie make it back into John's hands to
run 11s and punch into the 10s next spring? Or will it go
underground and become the Zombie from Hell, replete with glowing
plasma ball, to terrorize John in all his further drag racing
efforts (Purple Phaze, et.al.)...?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just as an aside, if anyone is planning on using used oil from restaurants.
The grills are cleaned with abrasives that may find a way into the used oil
(Pumice, cleanser). These can play havoc with engines.
Dave, who sez:
"No matter how funny it may seem at the time, it is not a good career
move to suggest to your boss that his wife may like to sample the local
male prostitutes while holidaying in the Mediterranean"
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Range extending (Biodiesel in TDI???)
Hey, I use Biodiesel in my old Peugeot, but the local business that makes
it told me that using Biodiesel in a new VW TDI does NOT void the
warranty. He seems to have put a lot of research into it (he does sell the
stuff, after all) so is he grossly misinformed, or are there more
subtleties to the Biodiesel issue than just "yes it voids the warranty" or
"no it doesn't"???
Nick
-------Original Message-------
From: David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Range extending
Sent: 18 Nov '05 19:50
On 18 Nov 2005 at 11:23, Doug Weathers wrote:
> No need to get an "old" diesel VW - VW sells them new that will run
> just fine on biodiesel (including a New Beetle model). Look for models
with
> "TDI" in the name.
Sorry, I should have explained the reason for that suggestion. VW will
void
the warranty if they're run on US soy bio. They only honor it if you use
European (rapeseed) biodiesel. This is straight from VW. That's why I
recommend running an old one that's out of warranty, but it's up to you.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK I threw my name in the hat for this build. I also
offered to get batteries from exide but they told me
that they already had a deal with a battery company. I
tried to find out who it was but they couldn't tell
me. so I said "if the company is not Exide, Optima or
Hawker the car would not perform well" she said, "oh
Optima, I just looked at their site". I hope that was
a clue.....
Gadget
visit my website at www.reverendgadget.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Geico had no problem insuring my converted 1988 Chevy Sprint.
August Johnson
-----Original Message-----
Behalf Of Jim Coate
Subject: EV insurance
I know this goes around semi-regularly, and I know that the outcome
depends a lot on who happens to answer the phone, but...
Has anyone has success insuring an EV specfically with either Geiko or
with Travelers? Anyone in NY state? (Both companies have said they can't
handle a Solectria Force...)
--
Jim Coate
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might I recommend a Dodge Charger Daytona/Plymouth
Superbird? It has a .28 coefficient of drag, which would
make this a very efficient vehicle, that could not only have
good top speed, but excellent range as well. The weight
would be a problem though, like with any musclecar.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John Westlund wrote:
> like with any musclecar.
The mid 60's cars weren't that bad weight wise. 64.5 - 68 Mustangs,
67-69 Camaro/Firebird, Chevy II Nova, a couple of the smaller Mopars.
It was the 70's models where they grew in size and weight. Upwards of
4,000 lbs, vs's 3,000 or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul Gooch wrote:
>Don't talk like that. You give me good feelings.
A Zilla 2k would give anyone good feelings...
...in the pants. <g>
>I already have a 1420 lb. EV buggy. Do you want to buy
>me a Z2k now? <G> Oh, just think about how fast I
>could be somewhere else...
If I could afford a Zilla 2k, my car would be electric and
on the road as we speak done sort of on the cheap... I do
eventually intend to have one powering my EV some day, but
this car would require many chassis modifications to
acomodate one. A Zilla 1k would be much easier given the
limitations of the installed Triumph TR6
transmission/differentials. Just re-build the motor to make
its peak power around 7,000-8,000 rpm and about 180-200
lb-ft up to that rpm from 0 rpm at the expense of peak
torque, and all will be well without the 2k...
I think a buggy would be a good choice for this show, but
even better yet, a vehicle built on a buggy platform with an
aero body placed over it. But I hear Jessie wants to do a
muscle type EV. I'm rather partial to the Plymouth Superbird
and Ford Talladega myself, both beause they have good aero.
Another bitchin' conversion would be an early Mustang
Fastback.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chip Gribben wrote:
> This will be the
> first muscle car he builds without headers or an exhaust system. What's
> he going to do with himself during the show?
Also the first time he's built something that didn't pollute the air
as a result!
He can help with the battery racks/boxes/hold downs, and battery
mounting in general. The adapter plate. Maybe some vehicle
aerodynamic improvements or restoration/customization if it needs it.
Have him TIG weld the battery racks... Or CNC the adapter plate..
I can't stress enough the weaknesses of the stock differential, drive
shaft, and transmission. People break that stuff with slightly
modified ICE engines. And if it's a heavy 70's muscle car, it's going
to be really hard on parts.
Chromoly drive shaft and a complete built differential from Moser or
Strange or Currie or someone. 12 bolt or 9" or even the "new" Dana 60
offering(stronger then the 12 bolt, equal to the 9").
The transmission and adapter plate situation is worrisome though.
What's the performance and top speed like with direct drive? Scout
out a local shop that can built the short drive shaft/coupler ahead of
time.
--- End Message ---
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Id rather send $50 to jim husted, I think he is currently more "into"
what these motors need to do the trick.
Also I am skeptical about the rpm's that a warp 9 can turn, not because
I blew mine up but becasue it offered me a view of the pieces that can't
be seen any other way. and it is just darn ole physics. A larger
diameter comm with smaller bars can't handle the rpm's. Maybe if we can
find a better comm?
So 2 8"ers that have had Jim's messageing and put the difference into
the controller.
or Put a z1k in it to protect the stock muscle car rear end, the
electric driver still won't have to shift and will still beat the muscle
car, THEN you tell him a Zilla 2k would really make it fast, but it
would need a stronger rear end.
p.s. 12 bolt chev rears are a pain to work on and the wheels come off if
an axle brakes, but they can handle more torque than a stock 9" and
almost as much as one with the pinion support improvement. It is
possible for them to choose a chev that has one and it should handle teh
EV torque.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Darn right....what was I thinking! Jim Husted and his Hi-Torque electric
would be my first choice too.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2005 5:27 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Monster Garage Show Looking for Ampheads
Id rather send $50 to jim husted, I think he is currently more "into"
what these motors need to do the trick.
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.4/175 - Release Date: 11/18/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First of all, I misread the weight of the power electronics unit, It is more
like 60 lbs. each instead of 30 lbs. each.
BTW, I did not mention in the original post that each ACP drive appears to
have a maximum battery current draw of 580A. Also minimum system operating
voltage appears to be 240V.
The discharge rate and voltage drop with a minimal amp hour capacity pack
would be borderline for sure to produce this power level for the required
number of seconds.
But... toss in a minimal chassis weight vehicle/increased efficiency
compared to DC/and the long and strong torque curve of an AC drive (0-12000
rpm with peak power between 7000-8000 rpm)/and extreme power density
batteries like TMF cells _or supercaps_, and you never can tell what the
real world results might be :^D
I don't work for and am not associated with ACP, but after spending
considerable time taking in all the info provided online, I am certainly
sold on the capabilities of the technology.
I even think the price is not outta line.
The previous versions of this drive were more expensive and considerably
less capable.
This one is not only plug and play with the grid (grid-intertie quality sine
wave AC power), you can also run you house off it, or a concert, or charge a
stranded EV with DC, or quick charge off any source AC or DC from 100-250V @
a max. of 20KW.
Also includes a 100A @ 13.5V DC to DC converter.
OK. Done. Starting to sould like a salesman here :^D
Check it out-
http://acpropulsion.com
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roy LeMeur wrote:
> I even think the price is not outta line.
"How much is the AC-150 Gen 2?"
"The AC-150 Gen 2 is $25,000"
"This includes the AC induction motor (150 kW peak, 50 kW continuous),
the motor drive inverter (150 kW peak, 50 kW continuous), the
integrated, Reductive, bi-directional charger (20 kW), and the 13.5V
DC power supply (100A max)."
25k is too much. I'd do it for $10k IF this setup would out perform a
Z2K and WarP 13". $12k tops.
http://acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_products.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mario wrote:
> I thought about designing one myself, but I haven't done enough
> research yet to figure out if its even feasible for a small vehicle size
> battery. Or where to get the Vanadium and if its toxic or not, etc.
Safety of it:
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts58.html
Seems like it might be easy enough to get:
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/elements/text/V/key.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am planning on going to a dual motor setup and I have some questions.
Contactors.
I was looking at the connection diagram on cafe-electric's site and
was wondering if that was 3 4pole double throw or if 6 2 pole double
throw are necessary. I assume these are different than the main
contactor in that we don't switch under load? and don't have to be as
"good" as the main disconnect.
What contactors are recommended?
Speed sensors
Will the zilla software handle only having one speed sensor? or do I
wire the one sensor into the 2 inputs?
The motors will share a common shaft like the siamese 8 so I won't be
able to mount 2 sensors.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pr_electric_sting-ray_launch.html
~$400 if anyone wants one..
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3599968
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Stefan, Phil, Chris and All,
"Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well, just in case anyone is interested:
I got all the numbers together and ran it through Uve's calculator.
Given ALL the factors (Cd, frontal area, weight, tires, gear ratios,
etc), it states a needed 30 ft-lbs of torque into the tranny at 2800 RPM
with a 2% incline at 50MPH. Going with a 84v pack, that gives a battery
draw of 212A (ouch!).
There is no place in the US where you can go at 2% grade for long!!
You would hit 10,000' before you ran out of batt.
You only need that kind of power for short times and why I said do
1% and flat for your average power.
Adding a stock Robin EX27 with a torque output of 13.74 ft-lbs @ 2700RPM
running at the recommended continuous 80% max output would yield an
electric motor demand of around 20ft-lbs. The calculator reports a
battery draw of about 130A at that torque/rpm level, and using 14 T125's
would net a potential highway cruise range of just over 30 miles instead
of 22.
Not cool :(
22 miles at 2% grade is not possible. Do the math. How many feet
will you rise at 2% in 20 miles?
So a 9-15 hp ICE will easily do you.
Recalulate at the lower 1% grade and flat for more real life
ratings.
I've started a CAD workup using the Robin EH41 + ADC 203-06-4001 + AXE
7245. This way I can try different clutch configurations as I get more
info on those. If I can fit it in this engine bay (50" front track), it
should fit in almost anyone's.
I'd go with an L91 or 2 A89's for less money, plenty of power, in
fact more cont with the 2 motor set up.
For cheaper batts, longer range, I'd stick with 48vdc. There are
inexpensive 1,000 amp controllers for series motors at that voltage.
Though I'd go with the 2 E teks and a Sevcon controller or 2 for
higher eff, regen and lower costs.
I can't wait to see your setup when it's about done Chris. Nice blog Jerry!
--
Stefan T. Peters
No matter what you do with a cheap, low-tech generator engine, you will
produce MANY times the polluting emmisions of a modern ICE car ( on a
per/mile basis).
Phil
This is misleading as many cars now have cleaner exhausts than
the air that goes into them so it is really getting past the point of reason.
So it's like saying if it pollutes 1 gram/mile which is very low
would still pollute 20x's more than a new car. But you also don't count when
the car is 10 yrs old and pollutes more than a well tuned, hotrodded Robin
would. I use to make gray market europeon cars to pass the EPA tests in order
to come into the country and with a Sun machine, it's wasn't that hard to do.
So lets get real here. Trees, people literally put out HC's too,
as long as it's a very small amount, the well tuned advanced motors like the
Robin are not bad. The pollution from building the second car will be many
times more.
With the larger motors, you would be better off with the Geo 3cyl
motor as it weighs less, lower polluting.
If I could lighten the car a good deal, I would be in much better
shape. I was
just looking at the frame and was thinking I could do an old school
pickup type
chassis conversion. If I cut it just behind the drivers seat at the
roof posts,
I could loose the whole back end of the car, keeping only the floor pan
and
suspension. I could make a jeepish snap on clear plastic back wall.
Chris
That's not a good idea as it's a unibody and will fold up with the
batt weight unless you do extensive reinforcement which defeats yoour weight
reduction efforts..
If you really want to lighten it, cut it off after the drivers
seat and put a single rear wheel suspension, one of it's rear wheels, behind it
to a rear bulkhead that ties the roof, lower body together. This will cut aero
drag too as wheelwells and the rear are about 40% of aero drag.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pr_electric_sting-ray_launch.html
~$400 if anyone wants one..
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3599968>>>
Does WalMart have an exclusive on these ($399 is the MSRP)?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Could somebody point me towards the BB600 NiCad battery list?
Thanks
Rush
Tucson AZ
www.ironandwood.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
NSFW due to ads on the page. For those who don't get the lingo, that's
Not Safe For Work.
The little silly-looking econo Smart Car smashes directly into a
concrete barrier at 70 mph and the cabin is still completely intact. Of
course the decelleration even into an airbag is quite dangerous, but the
safety cage is definitely doing the best job it could do.
http://www.muchosucko.com/viewlink10619.html
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/BB600/
--- Rush <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Could somebody point me towards the BB600 NiCad
> battery list?
> Thanks
>
> Rush
> Tucson AZ
> www.ironandwood.org
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Gadget,
I posted the Gadget flywheel adaptor 2.0 on my new
website. It might just work for you with no welding
required. I like this method ALOT. the whole process
to make the adaptor took less than 2 hours. (machine
shop required) check it out at
leftcoastconversions.com
That's such a simple way of doing it!
A nice peice of work, I think I may have to "steal" this idea
to do the adaptor on whatever EV I build next. ;-)
Thanks for putting it up on the web for us all to see.
Regards
Richard Bebbington
electric Mini pickup
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/electric.mini/
UK dealer for Netgain Warp motors!
www.supralectrix.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try getting a weight check on it. Do some web
research. Take a diabetic's styrofoam mail order
container, and see how many batteries you can position
around.
I'd gather Mike Brown has checked this model, as his
baby has been Volkswagen, so he might be a good
resource to tap...
My gut tells me that a Passat is one step up from a
Jetta. (read: _heavy_), so there would be better
candidates out there. (Honda Civic!!? Shameless plug)
(;-p
Good luck with your search.
Sincerely,
--- Sean Taylor <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I have the chance to buy a 2000 (or something around
> there) passat in
> decent condition for really cheap just because the
> ICE is blown (no need
> for that anyway!!). I was just wondering what
> people thought of this as a
> car for conversion. I don't have a whole lot of
> information about it
> right now, I'll be finding out more tomorrow. I'm
> guessing it's just the
> FWD version, and had the 1.8L inline 4. I'd rather
> have a car with RWD,
> but you take what you can get, right? :)
>
> Any opinions/expertise/advice appreciated!
>
> Sean Taylor
> Urbana, IL
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
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--- Begin Message ---
The Bridgestone is 16 pounds the Hercules LT is 25 pounds. Max pressure for
the Hercules is 50 vs 44 for the Bridgestone. The Hercules carries 1700
pounds vs 1200 for the Bridgstone. Rolling resistance is not known for the
Hercules. It is well know that the Bridgestone is one of the best off the
rack for rolling resistance. The tire I have on now (orginal equiptment
6.00 x 14 LT.bias)is 25.25 inches in diameter. The Bridgestone is 24.3 and
the Hercules is 25.7. I'm thinking the Bridgestone will meet the needs of
the Electravan 750. It probably weighs 3700 pounds. That's 1100 pounds
cushion.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 18 Nov 2005 at 19:30, jerry dycus wrote:
> This is misleading as many cars now have cleaner exhausts than
> the air that goes into them
I hear this a lot. It's actually been advanced as a reason to AVOID
developing EVs! I find it difficult to believe.
I'm not a chemist or physicist, but it seems to me that much depends on how
one defines "cleaner." If the definition is limited to, say, CO and HC,
maybe. I can see how a catalytic converter could actually reduce the CO
and/or HC content in extremely contaminated air, though I have yet to see
concrete proof that such really happens.
Besides, even if it is so, look what it's turning them into: CO + O2 = CO2;
HC + O2 = H2O + CO2. True, CO2 is an atmospheric gas. But should the
exhaust of a vehicle be considered cleaner than ambient air when it has a
much higher than normal proportion of CO2? Again, it's a matter of
definition.
What about NOx? How are these reduced when air in which they are
significant components is used for ICE combustion? (I'm asking: I just
don't know.) Then there are the unregulated compounds, such as
formaldehydes, hydrogen sulfide, sulfuric acid vapor, and many others.
These can make a "clean" exhaust (by EPA definition) pretty darn dirty. Go
stand behind an ICE, especially during warmup. There's definitely SOMETHING
coming out of that tailpipe with a distinctive, sharp odor.
I would invite anyone who believes that ICEs clean the air to shut his
garage door and have a nice, comfy seat next to his idling car while it's
cleaning the air in his garage. ;-)
> Trees, people literally put out HC's too ...
Sure, but what's the point? Does that make it OK for vehicles to emit them
in larger than necessary quantities? If modern ICE emission controls can
reduce them to level X, how is it progress to fit a hybrid vehicle with an
engine that emits at 3X or 5X or 10X?
I really think that we hamper the argument for EVs when we allow these kinds
of rationalizations to creep into the discussion.
An ICEV is not, cannot be, a zero emission vehicle. (Forgive me, but the
"PZEV" designation for certain "hybrids" is literally laughable.)
Furthermore, a motorcycle or industrial engine is not as well controlled for
emissions as a modern automobile engine. How the MC or industrial engine is
tuned is immaterial. It will never attain the same level of emissions
reduction as a modern ICE automobile, because it just isn't designed to do
so. Designing a vehicle drivetrain - it's a mater of integrated design, not
just engine design - for low emissions is not trivial.
These are facts and they can't be rationalized away.
No matter how much one wants to think that some hybrid design based on an
industrial or motorcycle engine is "clean," without extensive engine
redesign it is not, cannot be, as clean as a normal production ICE-based
vehicle. And it is clearly much dirtier than a pure EV. IMO, to suggest
otherwise is disingenuous - particularly when one is offering such a vehicle
for sale.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
>
> On Nov 18, 2005, at 1:20 AM, David Roden wrote:
>
>> Or you might do as some other Deep Green folks
>> I know do, get an old Rabbit diesel and convert it to run on vegetable
>> oil
>> as your long distance vehicle.
>
> No need to get an "old" diesel VW - VW sells them new that will run
> just fine on biodiesel (including a New Beetle model). Look for models
> with "TDI" in the name.
He said "Vegetable Oil" not Biodeisel. Many of the older Indirect
Injection diesels (like the old rabbits) will run on straight vegetable
oil with minimum modifications. In fact I've seen some reports of old
Rabbits and Mercedes running on straight veggy with NO modifications.
However, this generally causes problems and is not recommended.
There are also a couple companies now offering kits and modified injectors
that will allow you to run straight veggy on modern turbo charged diesels.
Of course biodiesel is gaining popularity, I recall reading about some
service station in Phoenix or Tucson selling pure biodiesel (not 20%).
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
>
>
>
>>From: Chris Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>>
>>Well, I'm very curious what the emissions would be like. If I was to go
>>that
>>route, I intended to hook the exhaust through the original system. I'd
>>move the
>>cat up much closer to keep it hot, and it would take care of any unburnt
>>fuel.
>
> If you do that you will likely destroy the CC in short order. I'm
> assuming
> that your generator engine will not have been designed for use with a CC,
> and will not have the necessary sensors ( oxygen sensor, in particular) so
> that it's computer can continually adjust the mixture to reduce unburned
> hydrocarbons to the absolute minimum. That is what the CC requires to
> survive. Is the engine even computer controlled?
>
Not to mention the that the CC must be properly sized for the engine. They
need to get up to a particular temperature to work properly. Their size
is calculated taking exhuast temperature and flow into account. You can't
just slap any old CC on any old engine and expect it to work.
> All that complexity and sophistication ( as well as being designed from
> the
> ground up for minimum emissions) is necessary in a modern ICE car engine,
> partly to keep from murdering the CC.
>
> No matter what you do with a cheap, low-tech generator engine, you will
> produce MANY times the polluting emmisions of a modern ICE car ( on a
> per/mile basis).
Yeah, but some people are convinced that because they vaguely remember
something they read a long time ago, that they can do better than the auto
companies that hire teams of experts and spend millions of dollars in R&D.
Who knows, maybe they are right. I seriously doubt it though.
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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--- Begin Message ---
> Well, just in case anyone is interested:
>
> I got all the numbers together and ran it through Uve's calculator.
> Given ALL the factors (Cd, frontal area, weight, tires, gear ratios,
> etc), it states a needed 30 ft-lbs of torque into the tranny at 2800 RPM
> with a 2% incline at 50MPH. Going with a 84v pack, that gives a battery
> draw of 212A (ouch!).
Hmm, that seems a little on the low side, did you take battery sag into
account?
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If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
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When comparing pricing he probably means between A/C
systems such as Siemens, Brusa and Solectra. A/C
systems are a bit higher priced but look what you
loose. Transmission- on Some systems D/C to D/C, And
on Most other systems there is no Charger, less
contactors. And the pricing point is nearly the same
between AC systems. The Other advantage here is it
(the A/C system) is made in U.S. with no shipping
oversea to get it fixed (No offense meant to our World
wide members). Same can be said with the favored PFC's
and Zilla controllers and Warp Motors. But this is a n
AC to AC comparison. Also if you look at the General
John Q Public as a good portion of the Vehicle are now
automatic. Walked in to a show room the other day and
I would have to guess that 90% of the displayed
vehicles with Automatic.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Roy LeMeur wrote:
>
> > I even think the price is not outta line.
>
> "How much is the AC-150 Gen 2?"
>
> "The AC-150 Gen 2 is $25,000"
>
> "This includes the AC induction motor (150 kW peak,
> 50 kW continuous),
> the motor drive inverter (150 kW peak, 50 kW
> continuous), the
> integrated, Reductive, bi-directional charger (20
> kW), and the 13.5V
> DC power supply (100A max)."
>
> 25k is too much. I'd do it for $10k IF this setup
> would out perform a
> Z2K and WarP 13". $12k tops.
>
> http://acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_products.htm
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Not to put a damper on anyones ideas here but this is
a little kids bike. 8-12 year olds. It is suppose to
be a motorcyle replica similar to the pedal cars. It
will not hold a 150 lbs plus person without bending
the frame.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
> >
>
http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pr_electric_sting-ray_launch.html
>
> ~$400 if anyone wants one..
>
>
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3599968
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
The Currie version of this bike is called the I-Zip
http://www.currietech.com/html/izipCatalog/2005CTI_izipChopper.html It has
the same 4 inch wide rear wheel but with a different drive. It uses a chain
drive to the rear as opposed to a hub motor. I am quite sure it is the same
size frame, too short and bunchy for an adult but it is plenty strong. I
owned one a rode one for a very short time then sold it. I am over 200
pounds. Some of the downsides. The chain drive makes quite a bit of noise
and it has rear brakes only. I like the removable battery pack. It is a
"cool" beginner electric for a kid. Currie has a great new electric moto
cross type bike coming out with front and rear suspension and a front disc
brake. It looks fun. Still in a kids size though I believe.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bruce Weisenberger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 3:46 AM
Subject: Re: The new Sting-Ray Electric
Not to put a damper on anyones ideas here but this is
a little kids bike. 8-12 year olds. It is suppose to
be a motorcyle replica similar to the pedal cars. It
will not hold a 150 lbs plus person without bending
the frame.
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
>
http://www.schwinnstingray.com/pr_electric_sting-ray_launch.html
~$400 if anyone wants one..
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3599968
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--- Begin Message ---
Could I ask the collective wisdom of the EV list about carbon brushes.
In my EV I have a 4 pole DC motor that has two 1'' x 1/2'' brushes per pole.
These brushes have the connecting wire embedded in them for about the first
half an inch of their total 1.25 inch length when new.
Is it O.K to run the brushes when the ends of the copper are visible at the
end of the brush that is in contact with the comm ?. Or should I cease use
immediately until I can get replacements.
Otherwise it seems a bit rough that a brush is only useable for about 2/3rds
of its length.
John
www.bedfordev.flyer.co.uk
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it possible to start and run a small EV production line and at least eck out
a small profit at it?
I just inherited a 2 plant metal fabricating business that we are in the
process of selling off or closing down. It however struck me that maybe I
should use one plant to produce a low-cost EV. Anyone have any interest or
thoughts on this?
Plant that would be used is located in Clarksville Iowa, just northwest of
Cedar Falls/Waterloo. Not looking for any investment from potential partners,
but would need one or more individuals knowledgeable in EV's. I just bought my
first electric car and am learning about them on the fly so to speak.
Please respond either in this public list or you may private email me.
Think about it. Am in the process of developing a rough business plan and
would like to explore any ideas that are feasible.
Bruce
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Bruce,
This has been kicked around on the list more times
than you can imagine. During '97-04, the traffic on
the list came to the conclusion that after one paid
for the EV electronics (8K), and the "glider" (shell
of a car with a blown engine, 3K), and some labor,
(3-4K) that the cars are out of the reach of people
without a big heart for doing "the right thing". The
uptick in oil prices changed all of that for four
months, and now we're back in the doldrums for awhile,
waiting for prices to tick up. Evidence the
discussion about a RAV-4EV selling for $53K, and
personally, I received a call regarding my Civic,
which isn't even for sale.
Peripheral issues:
-all that needs "fabricating" on an EV are the battery
racks, and the adapter plate. Because each model has
a different trunk and a different body style, you
either need to have to be willing to build on a
variety of primarily subcompact, manual transmission
vehicles, or stick to just one model.
-how many people can insure a 3rd party conversion?
Feel free to check out Wikipedia, (electric vehicles),
or my webpage (below). And welcome to the list!
--- bruce bogusz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is it possible to start and run a small EV
> production line and at least eck out a small profit
> at it?
>
> I just inherited a 2 plant metal fabricating
> business that we are in the process of selling off
> or closing down. It however struck me that maybe I
> should use one plant to produce a low-cost EV.
> Anyone have any interest or thoughts on this?
>
> Plant that would be used is located in Clarksville
> Iowa, just northwest of Cedar Falls/Waterloo. Not
> looking for any investment from potential partners,
> but would need one or more individuals knowledgeable
> in EV's. I just bought my first electric car and am
> learning about them on the fly so to speak.
>
> Please respond either in this public list or you
> may private email me.
>
> Think about it. Am in the process of developing a
> rough business plan and would like to explore any
> ideas that are feasible.
>
> Bruce
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in
> one click.
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
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'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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