EV Digest 4919
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Shawn Rutledge <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....Thanks for the replies
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: ACP twin motor setup
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $
at this!
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) EV - Motorcycle CROSSES the USA
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....Thanks for the replies
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV - Motorcycle CROSSES the USA
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Dual motor setup
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: EV production! Who's interested in figuring out how to make $ at this!
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: OT, Re: Range Extending
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Smart Car crash test video
by jerry dycus <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by "djsharpe" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) EV Warehouse in Aus
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Range Extending
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Range Extending
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: PFC-20/30 charger as a External Portable Charger?
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: EV Warehouse in Aus
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Motor mods and breaker mods
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well what kind of fabrication is this plant doing? Can you make auto
bodies? Or is it just a machine shop? or welding shop?
The two approaches that have been mentioned so far are conversions,
and using a fiberglas body. A third approach would be to build
conventional steel bodies using older techniques that can be scaled
down to small quantities and small shops. I'm not sure that it's a
viable approach but you probably know more about that from observing
the kind of work that was going on in these shops. Maybe you could
build something like an electric Messerschmitt; it would be kindof
cool.
As has been pointed out, for conversions not a lot has to be
fabricated - but there is the motor/transmission adapter. That's
machine shop work. You could maybe have a small business just selling
kits for lots of different conversions. There are some kits like that
already, but only for a few cars. I wonder how high demand would be
for that though; probably not enough to pay full-time salaries all by
itself.
And for fiberglas designs, again there is not a lot of metal
fabrication involved; suspension and steering components mostly, but
they don't necessarily have to be designed and manufactured from
scratch either.
And then there are the basic problems with starting any new car
company in this country - lots of red tape and expense regarding crash
testing and DOT compliance, and the workforce being too highly paid
and perhaps unionized. 3-wheelers and kit cars can slip under the
radar more easily than others.
BTW let me know if you have any surplus milling machines or lathes to
get rid of; I'd love to have one in my garage but they are going
kindof pricey on ebay.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thats no fun... Convert both 240zx's and swap.
starting with 240/1 at home charged and the 240/2 at work charging at
night slowly
drive 240/1 to work when you leave work plug in 240/1 and leave it there
and drive 240/2 home and plug it in.
Now if they won't let you charge at work, then since you are swaping,
the chargeing station doesn't have to be at work, perhaps an rv place a
few miles away or another EV'er or city recharge station.
I was thinking of 2 EV's so I can swap, since my house is rather central
to school and work, I could swap mid day just to keep each car at
shallower charges most the time and allow easily for those days that
include work,school,store,and multiple errands.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
$350 IS by truck(LTL), because of increased fuel costs, the LTL market
I guess went bonkers on small stuff.
spliting the motor into 2 pieces and shipping UPS is now cheaper, at
least for shorter distances. I don't know what UPS would charge from
california to michigan.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually I have been trying to look into this from a different
perspective. I have been somewhat reluctant to mention it because I
have trouble getting anyone to take me seriously. I am working on a
buisness proposal with the aim of getting investors.
What is the minum quantity of _________ that i need to produce to get a
price point of ___________.
Once I have that question filled in for each component and task, I'll
have something.
Can I work with only 10 million for an initial offering of 1000 units
that cost me 10K to make and I sell for around 15K?
or do I need to bump quantities up to 10K. I am fully aware that no one
answer exists, motors, controllers, body parts all will have their own
optimum purchase quantity.
I think maybe spending $ 500,000 on a prototype and coming up with 3 or
4 $80K models and waiting tell a few people who can buy those than
allowing you to make 6 or 8 more, is very noble but maybe getting 1000
sold at 15K can get a manufacturer over that initial hump.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Neon John wrote:
I find it interesting that none of the so-called celebrity True
Believers has seen fit to put up any of their money to help make a
production EV a reality.
Tom Hanks has invested in production EVs with AC Propulsion-
http://www.calcars.org/LivingOnEarth-CalCarsMay04.pdf
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/earthday_beverlyhills.html
Tom Hanks with David Letterman on 3/22/04-
http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/hanks_1.wmv
Production cars are mentioned on this page-
http://acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_cars.htm
I think that George Clooney purchasing the first production Tango qualifies
as putting in his money to help make a production EV a reality-
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/ClooneyTango.html
http://commutercars.com/specifications.html
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just came across ( by accident ) on the UPN Network ( Chanel 11 Seattle)
a program called "COOLFUEL Roadtrip Across USA"
Obviously narrated by a bunch of Aussies, or English. Two Guys, a Gal
and a Jack Russle Terrior traveling cross the Desert from Wind Turbin
site to wind turbin site. With side trips in wind-driven gliders, and
other Alt.Fuel sites.
Guess the POINT of the show, is to go cross the whole country, without
using any petrolium fuel. ( too bad their gigantic 2 ton GMC Motorhome
is their support vehicle... They did not mention it, but perhaps it is
bio-diesel fueled...)
The electric motor cycle looks like the "electric Hog" A converted
Harley Davidson, I have seen on the EVDL.
Can any one give detail on this series ?? Looks like it plays every
Saturday afternoon (1 pm to 2 pm ) in Seattle. Chan.11 We will LOOK FOR
IT next week.
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nah....The gas 240 is quite a nice little car and will come in handy when I
have used up the charge on the Electric and need to go somewhere when I need
more than one passsenger. The funny thing is I paid $1000 for both cars and
only needed $500 more to get the gas car totally reliable (I have put 7,000
miles on it since I bought it). Now if I can get the electric built the way
I want. I was thinking of this setup:
Netgain 11 inch motor
Electro Automotive motor to tranny adapter
20 Hawkers for acceleration (460 pounds)
20 Trojan T105 for cruise
Zilla controller
I was thinking I can have both battery packs and use the hawkers for off the
line acceleration, switching to the T105s with a selector switch once I am
up to speed. That way I can have blistering acceleration AND pretty decent
range. If I feel like a leasurly drive around town I can stick with the
T105s. Has anyone ever tried a dual purpose battery pack arrangement?
-----Original Message-----
From: Jeff Shanab [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2005 4:21 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: RE: Riddle me this (newbie)....Thanks for the replies
Thats no fun... Convert both 240zx's and swap.
starting with 240/1 at home charged and the 240/2 at work charging at
night slowly
drive 240/1 to work when you leave work plug in 240/1 and leave it there
and drive 240/2 home and plug it in.
Now if they won't let you charge at work, then since you are swaping,
the chargeing station doesn't have to be at work, perhaps an rv place a
few miles away or another EV'er or city recharge station.
I was thinking of 2 EV's so I can swap, since my house is rather central
to school and work, I could swap mid day just to keep each car at
shallower charges most the time and allow easily for those days that
include work,school,store,and multiple errands.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Steven,
I got an email from them back in September and posted some links
about it:
http://www.evconvert.com/article/coolfuel-roadtrip
-Jerry
On Nov 19, 2005, at 5:08 PM, Steven Lough wrote:
Just came across ( by accident ) on the UPN Network ( Chanel 11
Seattle) a program called "COOLFUEL Roadtrip Across USA"
Obviously narrated by a bunch of Aussies, or English. Two Guys, a
Gal and a Jack Russle Terrior traveling cross the Desert from Wind
Turbin site to wind turbin site. With side trips in wind-driven
gliders, and other Alt.Fuel sites.
Guess the POINT of the show, is to go cross the whole country,
without using any petrolium fuel. ( too bad their gigantic 2 ton
GMC Motorhome is their support vehicle... They did not mention it,
but perhaps it is bio-diesel fueled...)
The electric motor cycle looks like the "electric Hog" A converted
Harley Davidson, I have seen on the EVDL.
Can any one give detail on this series ?? Looks like it plays
every Saturday afternoon (1 pm to 2 pm ) in Seattle. Chan.11 We
will LOOK FOR IT next week.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Hanson wrote:
> I was curious on a direct drive 1400lb 72V vehicle whether it would be
> better for a 7" or 8" motor.
If it's direct drive, start by specifying the required top speed and
accelleration. For instance, it's gotta go 60 mph, and gotta accellerate from
0-30 mph in 10 seconds.
Then look at motor specs to find a motor big enough to do this. While
accellerating, the controller will probably be in current limit. So motor
current is fixed; thus the torque it makes is fixed. See what gear ratio is
needed with this motor torque to get the required wheel torque for your
desired accelleration.
Now see what top speed that gear ratio produces. Look at the motor curves to
see what rpm it is at when running at your pack voltage and cruising current.
For intance, it might be the rpm at 72v and 100a.
Suppose you picked a motor that is too small. Then the gear ratio that gives
you the necessary torque is so low that you can't reach the desired speed
without motor rpm going too high. You need a bigger motor.
In a 1400 lbs vehicle, I'd guess that either a 6.7" or 8" motor has a good
chance of working direct drive.
The other factor is that you can go to a bigger controller with a higher
current limit. This gives you more motor torque, allowing a higher gear
ratio, and thus a higher top speed. The downside is that higher current
overheats the motor sooner. At (say) 1000 amps, the 6.7" and 8" motors might
both provide enough torque; but the 6.7" motor overheats in 5 seconds while
the 8" can survive 10 seconds.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
> I am planning on going to a dual motor setup and I have some questions.
>
> Contactors.
> I was looking at the connection diagram on cafe-electric's site and
> was wondering if that was 3 4pole double throw or if 6 2 pole double
> throw are necessary. I assume these are different than the main
> contactor in that we don't switch under load? and don't have to be as
> "good" as the main disconnect. What contactors are recommended?
On the Tango, we used six Albright SW200's for the twin motor series/parallel
and reversing, and a separate SPST Kilovac as the main disconnect. The
Kilovac is the only one that should ever have to operate under load (and then
only if something goes wrong).
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice publicity stunts, I guess. I am, of course, talking about real
money - $$millions$$. After all, if the world is about to end as they
contend, what's a few million here and there to save the planet? (I
can't believe I actually typed that.)
I'll know when they're interested in more than talking and stunting
when a few of them come up with, say, $20mil to start actual
production of cars that can be made and sold in even tiny volumes.
After all, that's how Panoz started up. They didn't build a car as a
stunt and then go begging for money. Mr. Panoz and his son opened
their pocketbooks and got some friendly "qualified investors" to do
the same. The result was that the first car they showed to the public
was a production model that could be purchased by anyone with the
jack.
The difference is Panoz identified a market (a lightweight topless
sportscar for [then] less than $50,000) and filled it.
Regardless of the sloganeering and chanting, the somewhat sad fact is,
there simply is not a market for BEVs, not even a tiny one that
cottage fabricators could fill. Nobody except for a few of us
oddballs want 'em.
That there is no market is further confirmed by there being no venture
capital available. VC will literally flood a startup with money if
there is even a slight possibility of making money. I know, I've been
involved with 3 electronics startups. (Having more money than one
knows what to do with is a curse, as it makes one sloppy.)
If there was ANY market then some VC fund of some size would be
willing to put up some cash. AC Propulsion is the existence proof of
that. They've had the T-zero out there what? 3-4 years now? Yet no
capital of any significance has been forthcoming. One can safely
conclude that the people with the cash have concluded that it won't
work.
John
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:05:23 -0800, "Roy LeMeur"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>>I find it interesting that none of the so-called celebrity True
>>Believers has seen fit to put up any of their money to help make a
>>production EV a reality.
>
>Tom Hanks has invested in production EVs with AC Propulsion-
>
>http://www.calcars.org/LivingOnEarth-CalCarsMay04.pdf
>http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/earthday_beverlyhills.html
>Tom Hanks with David Letterman on 3/22/04-
>http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/hanks_1.wmv
>Production cars are mentioned on this page-
>http://acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_cars.htm
>
>I think that George Clooney purchasing the first production Tango qualifies
>as putting in his money to help make a production EV a reality-
>http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/ClooneyTango.html
>http://commutercars.com/specifications.html
>
>.
>
>
>
>
>Roy LeMeur
>Olympia WA
>
>My Electric Vehicle Pages:
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
>Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
>http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
>EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
>http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John and All,
Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Nice publicity stunts, I guess. I am,
of course, talking about real
money - $$millions$$.
Lets see, you ask if any have put up money then redicule when
people show who did that proves you wrong? Way to go !!
To add to that , Don Johnson and an actress on his show put up
much of the money for the Tropica so another one you want to laugh at for doing
what you proposed below?
They made the fatal mistake of backing an EV that didn't have
doors or a top which just isn't going to fly. It must be a functional EV, not
just a toy.
After all, if the world is about to end as they
contend, what's a few million here and there to save the planet? (I
can't believe I actually typed that.)
The rest of us can :^D
I'll know when they're interested in more than talking and stunting
when a few of them come up with, say, $20mil to start actual
production of cars that can be made and sold in even tiny volumes.
Most did it that way and didn't succeed so just why do you think
it's a viable idea now?
After all, that's how Panoz started up. They didn't build a car as a
stunt and then go begging for money. Mr. Panoz and his son opened
their pocketbooks and got some friendly "qualified investors" to do
the same. The result was that the first car they showed to the public
was a production model that could be purchased by anyone with the
jack.
That's just what most of the EV companies did but they went in
too big, not the right way to do a start up so far in debt.
The difference is Panoz identified a market (a lightweight topless
sportscar for [then] less than $50,000) and filled it.
That's correct, first they identified the market and went for that
with a good product. They had also been building race cars for yrs before they
went into production. Experience counts, No?
Notice that's the same market I suggested, high end sportscars.
Regardless of the sloganeering and chanting, the somewhat sad fact is,
there simply is not a market for BEVs, not even a tiny one that
cottage fabricators could fill. Nobody except for a few of us
oddballs want 'em.
I guess all those people, 200,000 probably, running around in golf
carts and NEV's for most of their transport here in Fla are not a market? It's
such a market that some homes come standard with them. And I guess all those
begging for me to get mine into production are not there either?
The only reason people don't buy EV's is there are not any to buy.
No? Didn't Ford, GM, Honda, Toyota sell or lease every one they made? Even at
their high prices? Are those that were sold not reselling for $35- 53k even 4+
yrs old ?
That there is no market is further confirmed by there being no venture
capital available.
The EV-1 , the Sparrow, Rav 4 EV, EV+ prove that statement wrong.
I'm on the Sparrow list and every couple days someone else comes on wanting to
buy one.
VC will literally flood a startup with money if
there is even a slight possibility of making money. I know, I've been
involved with 3 electronics startups. (Having more money than one
knows what to do with is a curse, as it makes one sloppy.)
VC's don't like things they don't know. And smart EV builders
wouldn't want them as they want too much of the profit, business.
If there was ANY market then some VC fund of some size would be
willing to put up some cash. AC Propulsion is the existence proof of
that. They've had the T-zero out there what? 3-4 years now? Yet no
capital of any significance has been forthcoming. One can safely
conclude that the people with the cash have concluded that it won't
work.
The T zero wasn't a finished EV by any means and way too
expensive for what it was..
The way to be sucessful at building EV's is keeping the costs
very low so you can be profitable on the first few EV's. You say you need
millions yet I'm putting one into production for under $15k start up costs.
Of course I have most of the skills needed being both an EVer of
12 yrs and a boat designer, builder of low unit production where 5 units is a
sucessful run.
. But they can be hired fairly inexpensively if one knows what they
are doing or willing to listen to those that do.. But one can't follow Detroit
that can't do anything in under 50,000/yr quanties profitably. Mostly because
they refuse to use anything but steel for their bodies, chassis.
The kit based sportscar EV I talked about could be done by most
anyone fairly mechanicly inclined. The kitcars are widely available as are the
EV drives, batts would be a great way to get started in EV production for about
$20k and profitable on the first one selling for $40-50k, No?. One could do a
start up in a 2 car garage !! And probably the best way as it will be
profitable very early before capital runs out from being wasted by all the big
idea people, parasites, sucking it dry.
You are good at knocking things down John, Why? You especially enjoy
it, it seems, Why? Especially when you have no idea what you are talking
about. Stick to motors, electronics where you actually know something. Leave
the production advice to those of us who have actually produced vehicles
profitably.
If we want EV's, we must build our own as EV's are very different
than ICE's and by far the best way is starting small without debt and work up
from there. Not throwing money at it.
KISS,
Jerry Dycus
John
On Sat, 19 Nov 2005 14:05:23 -0800, "Roy LeMeur"
wrote:
>Neon John wrote:
>>I find it interesting that none of the so-called celebrity True
>>Believers has seen fit to put up any of their money to help make a
>>production EV a reality.
>
>Tom Hanks has invested in production EVs with AC Propulsion-
>
>http://www.calcars.org/LivingOnEarth-CalCarsMay04.pdf
>http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/earthday_beverlyhills.html
>Tom Hanks with David Letterman on 3/22/04-
>http://www.evchargernews.com/miscfiles/hanks_1.wmv
>Production cars are mentioned on this page-
>http://acpropulsion.com/ACP_FAQs/FAQ_cars.htm
>
>I think that George Clooney purchasing the first production Tango qualifies
>as putting in his money to help make a production EV a reality-
>http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/ClooneyTango.html
>http://commutercars.com/specifications.html
>
>.
>
>
>
>
>Roy LeMeur
>Olympia WA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, Nov 19, 2005 at 10:31:35AM -0800, jerry dycus wrote:
> Hi David and All,
>
> David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 18 Nov 2005 at 19:30, jerry
> dycus wrote:
>
> > This is misleading as many cars now have cleaner exhausts than
> > the air that goes into them
>
> I hear this a lot. It's actually been advanced as a reason to AVOID
> developing EVs! I find it difficult to believe.
>
<..snip..>
>
> These are facts and they can't be rationalized away.
I've noted that if you do not provide supporting evidence in the way of links
to other sites, then you are more likely to get a useless argument in response
to an otherwise well thought out and researched post.
>
> You seem to be rationalizing much more than I do. I try to
> stick to facts, actual emissions based on EPA tests, my experience passing
> them, manufacturing emissions for the second car and it's costs, emissions
> of the money needed to buy, maintain it..
You did not include any links to arguments or evadence backing you up.
Here is one fact reguarding auto emissions:
http://www.ucsusa.org/news/press_release/automakers-spread-false-information-in-attempt-to-hide-vehicle-pollution.html
"Today's typical auto actually releases more global warming emissions than
they did 20 years ago."
>
> Just because you don't understand true and total emissions output,
Ad hominem arguments are counterproductive.
> I try to stick to facts, actual emissions based on EPA tests, my experience
> passing them, manufacturing emissions for the second car and it's costs,
> emissions of the money needed to buy, maintain it..
Anecdotal evidence is also suspect (ie sounds like a testimonial).
If you cite your sources, we can have a more productive discussion.
> I've made my points and this is my last post on this as it's getting OT.
You are correct this is off topic.
> I'd like to hear your answers to my questions though, it should be
> entertaining.
So much fighting among friends :(
If we can not come to agreement or understanding in a community of mostly
like minded EV drivers, what chance do we have of winning anybody else over?
Just a few thoughs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Ryan, David and All,
David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 19 Nov 2005 at 11:16, Ryan Stotts
wrote:
> Situation and reality is though: even with the
> body strapped in place and even if the person had a helmet on and it
> was restrained to the seat as to not move forward; the brain can't be
> restrained.
As John said correctly, the body can stand many g's if correctly
restrained..
>
I'm convinced that a ^well designed^ small car can protect its occupants as
well as or better than ^SOME^ large vehicles, particularly older trucks with
rigid frames not designed for energy absorption. (Note that I'm not arguing
that ^every^ small car is safer than ^every^ truck.)
However, the tiny Smart just hasn't much crush zone. There's not a lot of
time or space in front of the cabin for absorbing the enormous forces
involved in a 70mph crash. Yes, the cabin itself remained intact, but
imagine the force on the occupants when the cabin boundary hit the barrier.
I don't think a dummy would have fared well in that car (to say nothing of a
human). But I would love to see dummy tests prove me wrong.
That's the reason my Freedom EV is so big, for crush space. And
why I'll use a 4 point seat belt.
Other safety features are great handling, built in skin roll cage,
energy absorbsion zones, safety seats, ect
For another composite EV crash check out this Horlacher website.
Just checked and they no longer have it but they crashed head on an Audi 100
into a Think sized composite EV and the Audi lost !!
That said, I'm all for making Smart EVs. Remember that the car was
originally intended to be an EV! One might play the odds, realizing that
especially as an EV these cars will seldom be driven at speeds over 45 mph
so in many cases collision forces will be lower than this spectacular crash.
But make sure that you as a converter carry plenty of liability insurance!
Not all of us want to go slow in our EV's, I'm set up for long
distance at 65mph. But then I'm the size of a compact car, not as small as a
Smart.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
---------------------------------
Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:36 PM 19/11/05 -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
Mark Hanson wrote:
> I was curious on a direct drive 1400lb 72V vehicle whether it would be
> better for a 7" or 8" motor.
<snip> In a 1400 lbs vehicle, I'd guess that either a 6.7" or 8" motor has
a good
chance of working direct drive.
Hi Lee and all
Has anyone done a Mira conversion? I did a quick search, but could only
find specs on 2005 model year, but it is small and light.
Having not yet finished my first vehicle (Daihatsu 1300kg truck) I have the
option of geting a Daihatsu Mira - going, useable with its' infernal
combustion engine as a 'round town' gopher vehicle. Has a spare engine and
gearbox, so I can mate up a motor and a bunch of other prep before pulling
the vehicle down for conversion.
I have a 72V GE-EV1 with contactors, DC/DC and other stuff, probably put it
with a 36 or 48V ex-forklift motor.
Any comments about a Mira?
Thanks
James
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Miras were converted by Huntingdon in Sydney (Les Polluski) as were
early 90s Charades (I've one of these).
D
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2005 1:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
At 04:36 PM 19/11/05 -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
>Mark Hanson wrote:
> > I was curious on a direct drive 1400lb 72V vehicle whether it would
be
> > better for a 7" or 8" motor.
>
><snip> In a 1400 lbs vehicle, I'd guess that either a 6.7" or 8" motor
has
>a good
>chance of working direct drive.
Hi Lee and all
Has anyone done a Mira conversion? I did a quick search, but could only
find specs on 2005 model year, but it is small and light.
Having not yet finished my first vehicle (Daihatsu 1300kg truck) I have
the
option of geting a Daihatsu Mira - going, useable with its' infernal
combustion engine as a 'round town' gopher vehicle. Has a spare engine
and
gearbox, so I can mate up a motor and a bunch of other prep before
pulling
the vehicle down for conversion.
I have a 72V GE-EV1 with contactors, DC/DC and other stuff, probably put
it
with a 36 or 48V ex-forklift motor.
Any comments about a Mira?
Thanks
James
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There's a guy in Sydney that's done a Daihatsu Handivan - early 80's
model, which is essentially what a Mira is these days.
(Alan something - a friend of Doc Symons)
In petrol form, the Handivan weighed about 550kg.
This car weighed over 1000kg.
Here's a photo of it -
http://www.thefowlers.homeip.net/OrangeBlossom/target15.html
(The blue one)
He had to upgrade the wheels and suspension as you can probably see from
the photo.
I think he was running a 9" ADC, Curtis controller and 144v of
batteries.
I'm sure that it could go very fast with that sort of gear on board.
I am very dubious of its ability to stop or go around corners quickly,
however.
Personally, I think a Charade is a far better candidate for conversion.
Mark
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of James Massey
Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2005 1:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Daihatsu Mira, was: Re: 8" vs 7" motor
At 04:36 PM 19/11/05 -0500, Lee Hart wrote:
>Mark Hanson wrote:
> > I was curious on a direct drive 1400lb 72V vehicle whether it would
be
> > better for a 7" or 8" motor.
>
><snip> In a 1400 lbs vehicle, I'd guess that either a 6.7" or 8" motor
has
>a good
>chance of working direct drive.
Hi Lee and all
Has anyone done a Mira conversion? I did a quick search, but could only
find specs on 2005 model year, but it is small and light.
Having not yet finished my first vehicle (Daihatsu 1300kg truck) I have
the
option of geting a Daihatsu Mira - going, useable with its' infernal
combustion engine as a 'round town' gopher vehicle. Has a spare engine
and
gearbox, so I can mate up a motor and a bunch of other prep before
pulling
the vehicle down for conversion.
I have a 72V GE-EV1 with contactors, DC/DC and other stuff, probably put
it
with a 36 or 48V ex-forklift motor.
Any comments about a Mira?
Thanks
James
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Hi all,
FYI - just got a mail from Richard Tait.
He's setting up a bit of an EV supply business in Australia.
http://www.evwarehouse.com.au/
His basic packages consist of an ADC Motor, Curtis controller and a
Woods charger of various sizes.
(No idea on the charger)
I think he was the guy that had the EV Suzuki Mighty Boy for sale on
EBay a while back.
Mark
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There is no place in the US where you can go at 2% grade for long!!
Yeah, yeah... I am just doing the old-fashion "conservative" calculations
approach. I'm not quite sure how accurate that form is, and I'd rather build for 50
miles, be wrong and end up getting 70 ;)
For cheaper batts, longer range, I'd stick with 48vdc. There are inexpensive
1,000 amp controllers for series motors at that voltage.
Hmm... sounds good as long as I can get good efficiency around town without the
ICE running. I hope to use an Alltrax because it's the cheapest I've seen that
has a RS232 output for the current PWM ratio. I am working up a throttle
proportioning algorithm from the output graphs of the electric and ICE motors.
I would read just throttle input (inductive), but I would like to know when the
controller is in current limit mode (100% PWM).
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Well, just in case anyone is interested:
I got all the numbers together and ran it through Uve's calculator.
Given ALL the factors (Cd, frontal area, weight, tires, gear ratios,
etc), it states a needed 30 ft-lbs of torque into the tranny at 2800 RPM
with a 2% incline at 50MPH. Going with a 84v pack, that gives a battery
draw of 212A (ouch!).
Hmm, that seems a little on the low side, did you take battery sag into
account?
I thought the calculator on Uve's site did that? (the 212A draw was at a
battery voltage of around 77V, according to the calc)
Do I have to add this into the calc results myself? This is with the ADC 4001 motor dropdown, and numbers received from Alltrax (they claim a pretty darn good efficiency level, at least a couple points higher then the Curtis). Is this claim just the icky smoke of a salesman?
Now one thing I noticed is how much changes in frontal area effect that figure.
This car may have only a 0.45 Cd, but with that itty bitty frontal area figure,
it comes out to a Cd*ft2 drag rating close to a 90's Porche or Civic?!? (go fig)
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You can charge a lower voltage pack with a PFC charger without making any
adjustments to the trim pot, you just have to manually turn the current down
and shut the charger off at the appropriate times or you will cook the
batteries. I have charged my motorcycle with other people's PFCs several
times. When the voltage rises past the bulk phase limit I either shut the
charger off or manually hold a constant voltage using the current knob just
like you do with a variac.
damon
From: Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: PFC-20/30 charger as a External Portable Charger?
Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2005 06:32:22 -0800 (PST)
It has gotten to the point that I need 3 chargers for different voltages
and I have a pretty poor selection of outlets with no room to add a
circuit. ($1200 is the lowest price for a new subpanel and new outlets)
With that in mind I was dreaming of a PFC charger instead as it may save
money in the long run. I have a russco with a boost converter which treats
me well enough but is too weak to equalize my 126volt pack with my electric
service. I have a 5amp variac for charging my 48volt mower by hand which I
guess I could use for my 72+ volt motorcycle when it gets done.
On http://www.manzanitamicro.com/chargers3.htm it says "The charger output
can be adjusted for any charging voltage from 12 volts to 450 volts with
the twist of a 20 turn trimmer pot"
I know it is more meants for when you change voltage on the vehicle it is
mounted in but could this be used to charge 3 different voltages routinely?
126 volts, 72 volts, 48 volts?
It would mostly be 126 or 72 depending on what I was driving that week.
Once a week during mowing season it would be 48volts. I can really only use
one charger at a time due to only having one outlet. Has anyone used the
PFC with multiple packs? Is it an easy thing to do on an ongoing basis? Any
tricks to making it more foolproof so I don't roast my packs by turning the
dial wrong. I know powerwise I won't get all the PFC could put out but at
least I can get all I can out of the outlet with it.
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
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On Nov 19, 2005, at 6:25 PM, James Massey wrote:
Hi Lee and all
Has anyone done a Mira conversion? I did a quick search, but could
only find specs on 2005 model year, but it is small and light.
Having not yet finished my first vehicle (Daihatsu 1300kg truck) I
have the option of geting a Daihatsu Mira - going, useable with its'
infernal combustion engine as a 'round town' gopher vehicle. Has a
spare engine and gearbox, so I can mate up a motor and a bunch of
other prep before pulling the vehicle down for conversion.
I have a 72V GE-EV1 with contactors, DC/DC and other stuff, probably
put it with a 36 or 48V ex-forklift motor.
Any comments about a Mira?
Well, it's cute, and I wish it was available in the US, but I don't
suppose that's terribly helpful to you. Sorry.
Here's the same car, called the Cuore in Europe:
<http://www.daihatsu.com/catalogue/cuore/index.html>
Wikipedia article:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daihatsu_Mira>
It looks like there are a lot of Mira-derived vehicles in Japan:
<http://english.auto.vl.ru/catalog/daihatsu/mira/1989_4/photo/15137/>
I also found this picture, which shows a Mira with the words "Electric
Vehicle" painted on the side:
<http://carpictures.duble.com/picturesphotospics/
daihatsumirapicturesphotospics.htm>
Anyone know anything more about this? Wait, here it is. A University
of Queensland student's thesis project, a 400V 200A three-phase motor
controller using a Mitsubishi IPM and a TI DSP:
<http://innovexpo.itee.uq.edu.au/2003/exhibits/s354264/>
The thesis linked to from that page shows the picture of the Mira EV
and says it's SIMILAR to the UQ's test vehicle. Still no info on the
car in the picture, though.
Thanks
James
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
http://learn-something.blogsite.org
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At 04:21 PM 20/11/05 +1100, Mark wrote:
Hi all,
FYI - just got a mail from Richard Tait.
He's setting up a bit of an EV supply business in Australia.
http://www.evwarehouse.com.au/
His basic packages consist of an ADC Motor, Curtis controller and a
Woods charger of various sizes. (No idea on the charger)
Hi All
All of the Woods chargers I've seen are dumb-as-a-brick tapped transformer
and rectifier. If they are run too high/too long they tell you by letting
the smoke out ;^)
If that's what he is looking at dealing he's after the low end of the
market. I wonder what the Curtis importer thinks? (retorical question,
don't answer).
I'd also think he's not likely to have much stock.
James
(in Tasmania, with 7 or 8 motors, a couple of DC/DCs, low-voltage
controllers & contactors, meters, current shunts, chargers...)
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Hi All
A bit more progress this weekend - beefier cross-bars in place inside the
motor (between brush holders). The cable bolt-on points are only on with
45% silver/solder (may add a bolt back in if needed). Need to get some of
Jim Husteds' Fusa-Fab to insulate the cross bars - and something to
increase the insulation between the holders and the end plate.
Got a couple of 3-phase breakers during the week with 250VDC rating, one
400A, one 225A, inspected the inside and since the contact size is the
same, cut the 225A one down to 1-pole (mostly with an angle grinder). Added
a trip button to the overload trip for red-button tripping (low force -
maybe 3% of the force needed to turn the lever off). Should have left the
ganging axle longer one side to add a microswitch for breaker-off warning
light.
As usual, pics at: http://jcmassey.gallery.netspace.net.au/Daihatsu-pics-01
and all comments welcome.
Regards
James
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At 04:14 PM 20/11/05 +1100, Mark wrote:
There's a guy in Sydney <snip>
In petrol form, the Handivan weighed about 550kg.
This car weighed over 1000kg.
Empty? <aack> That kind of overload is what I'd want to avoid. That's also
why I tacked it into the 1400lbs thread (630kg).
Here's a photo of it -
http://www.thefowlers.homeip.net/OrangeBlossom/target15.html
(The blue one)
Yep, that's about it. The one I'm looking at is a 4-seater, I'd be happy to
pull it back to a 2-seater. That'd be about 250kgs of capacity freed up,
T-105's would be 336kg @ 72V, or 261kgs of T-875s, so probably OK. I'd be
pulling the fuel tank, back seats, engine & 5-speed, going to a DC motor
and a 4-speed.
He had to upgrade the wheels and suspension as you can probably see from
the photo.
Can't really see, apart from the aftermarket wheels.
I think he was running a 9" ADC, Curtis controller and 144v of
batteries.
Well a 9" ADC is a fair lump of a motor, so there must be a bit of space in
the engine bay. That's a useful datapoint.
I'm sure that it could go very fast with that sort of gear on board.
I'd recon so too!
I am very dubious of its ability to stop or go around corners quickly,
however.
Another thing to avoid, I'd want to have something pretty nimble for around
town.
Personally, I think a Charade is a far better candidate for conversion.
Maybe, but as a work 'gopher' within 20kms (each way) of the workshop it'd
do, but I'm still thinking. The fact that this one has almost no rust, only
cosmetic 'dings', is cheap and will do the immediate job of gopher vehicle.
I may get it anyway, and review it along the way.
David Sharpe replied, the fact that some Miras' were convered in Sydney. I
wonder if any of those are still in use?
Doug Weathers also replied, with some links:
http://carpictures.duble.com/picturesphotospics/daihatsumirapicturesphotospics.htm
is also pretty much the vehicle I'm looking at, white, too (good for the
signwriting).
Thanks, and regards
James
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