EV Digest 4948
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Inertia Switch
by lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
by "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Solectria Tilt bed lift
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Inertia Switch
by "Mark Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Inertia Switch
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Speed sensor on the Zilla
by "Joe Strubhar" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Ac vs Dc
by "george michals" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Inertia Switch
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: * RL * RE: Question about MK battery AGMs and Gel cells
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) 40 golfers in my work truck
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: 40 golfers in my work truck
by Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) EDTA Conference Vancouver BC - Comments - Questions
by Steven Lough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Ac vs Dc
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Inertia Switch
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) Re: 40 golfers in my work truck
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 40 golfers in my work truck
by "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: NAPA Floddies
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: NAPA Floddies
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Battery Beach Burnout Races!?
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Drilling/tapping hard steel shaft
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Switching Capacitor Circuit
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) batteries
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks.
--- Patrick Maston
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The inertia switch will only open after a 30+ G
> impact.
>
> Patrick
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: lyle sloan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:53:06
> To:[email protected]
> Subject: Re: Inertia Switch
>
> Or how about wire it to your regen so that when you
> stop, you arent wasting energy while your mechanical
> brakes are applied at full stop.
>
> --- Mark Grasser <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Almost all cars have them now. They are wired in
> > series with the electric
> > fuel pump. In a serious crash it is important that
> > power to the fuel pump is
> > stopped in case there is a break in the fuel
> system.
> > I am going to wire mine
> > into the contactor wiring so in a crash power to
> the
> > motor will not be
> > possible.
> > Mark Grasser
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jerry halstead" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:03 PM
> > Subject: Inertia Switch
> >
> >
> > > Hi folks,
> > >
> > > I apologize if this is old news, but while
> taking
> > Eve (1990 Ford Probe)
> > > apart I found an inertia switch behind the rear
> > wheel well, behind the
> > > plastic sidewall. The connectors were a bit
> > corroded but otherwise it is
> > > a perfectly serviceable unit.
> > >
> > > Do most cars have these now? I hadn't really
> > thought about but I suspect
> > > those with fuel injection probably do.
> > >
> > > For the first EV I purchased an inertia switch,
> > which turns out to be
> > > made by the same manufacturer: First Technology
> > out of the UK (they have
> > > other interesting products). Picture of the
> > switch and links to the
> > > manufacture here:
> > > http://www.evconvert.com/eve/smoke-test
> > >
> > > If anyone needs an inertia switch I have an
> extra
> > one.
> > >
> > > -Jerry
> > >
> > > http://www.evconvert.com/
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Music Unlimited
> Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.
> http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/
>
>
__________________________________
Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree. I do agree however that coming up with a tax just for alternative
fuel vehicles will hurt progress. That is why I was thinking that a
quarterly odometer/weight check would be a fair way to directly equate to
road use. That way whether or not you are an EV, Hybrid, biodeisel, or
other fuel vehicle you could pay for the roads as you use them.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul G. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
On Nov 27, 2005, at 5:00 PM, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> BUT, if you were to pay at the gas station for the miles you
> drove it could do it then based on your odometer readings.
>
And if you pay for the miles you drove by how much and how often you
had to fuel your vehicle - oh wait, that is the current system and it
works quite well.
People who drive more tend to burn more fuel. Heavier vehicles tend to
burn more fuel per mile. Some times its not perfectly fair. The 2700
lb. Prius has a slightly cheaper fuel bill than the 1750 lb. Metro. The
poor air cooled Beetle owner are paying way to much because their 1800
lb. vehicle only gets 28 mpg. Having owned all these vehicles I'll buy
into the slight perceived inequality for the simplicity of
implementation. I know I have to pay my share of road taxes; however,
I'd prefer to minimize the amount paid to useless bureaucracy.
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes that would be easier. The only problem I could see with that is that
all the pumps would have to be hooked to a system that keeps track of the
cars and what the last odometer reading was. I guess since the pumps can
all use the VISA credit card system maybe they could use the same data line
to talk to another server with that info on it.
-----Original Message-----
From: Marvin Campbell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 12:56 PM
To: EV Discussion
Subject: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
I'm no engineer, but wouldn't it be simpler to have an onboard transmitter
send your current odometer reading to a receiver at the pump (or charger!)?
Marv
> From: Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2005 20:00:59 -0800
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Extra TAX on High-Milage Hybrids ?? WHAT !!
>
> Nick Austin wrote:
>
>>
>> Also, GPS is very easy to block, won't that cause problems?
>
> Anything can be tampered with. Blocking a GPS obviously must
> block the engine from running. C'mon, much more challenging
> technical tasks than this one have been solved.
>
>> <..snip..>
>>
>>> Technical implementation is not difficult.
>>
>> It seems like it is.
>
> Again, technical side is trivial. I use a GPS module in
> EVision system, it is treated by a circuit as any other
> sensor.
>
> It's just instituting it that present problem. Exactly the
> same as with EVs themselves - everyone knows how to build it
> (and it is simpler technically than ICE) but no one does
> (I mean OEM).
>
>> Thanks!
>
> You're welcome, but for what?
>
> Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
S-10's converted following the EVA (Electric Vehicles of America, aka
Bob Batson out of NH) plans used helper lift struts. These are like what
you see on hatchbacks. The difference is that on a hatchback they do all
the lifting; on the truck they just help, so that a single person can
lift the bed without struggling (or finding a second person as helper).
Once opened the bed would stay up... unless a strong gust of wind came
along or on a slight downhill - so keeping that safety support is important.
The particular ones that EVA sells may or may not require that the hinge
be built to the EVA plans (which also required rigging the rear bumper
to hinge drop down first). In New England winters I had problems with
the struts having short life spans as they would corrode and seize up
(YMMV).
I never got around to adding any sort of catch to hold the bed down in
the closed position - a creative lister suggested using hood latch(es),
complete with the cable for releasing. I never had any problems with the
bed opening it self while driving around, although it did wiggle a
little from side to side... I'd wonder about it when carrying heavy
loads, but never seemed to hurt the hinges. I did dream of adding the
hydraulic lift, but there wasn't any space with the batteries under the bed.
arthur marquardt wrote:
Does anyone know where people get their tilt bed lifts that you see on
so many pickup truck EV's?
Did people buy them or did they build them themselves and if so how? I
am now the proud owner of a working Solectria E-10 and would like to
make it easier to get to the batteries in back. It is hard to lift the
bed up by myself it is already hinged and has a safety support to hold
it up once it gets there. The vehicle came without the four bolts
(metric) which hold down the bed in front. Also, is there any clever
quick disconnect latching scheme for an S-10 bed?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
But if the main contactor is opened everytime you release your foot off the
accel peddle it's not necessary unless it's rated 500A and can be placed in
series with the pack but as far as I know they aren't high current rated).
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Inertia Switch
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 06:23:05PM -0700, Rush wrote:
> > Is it recommended to have an inertia switch?
> >
>
> It lowers your odds of death after an accident.
>
> I think the first responders would like it more as well.
>
> Safety is always a good thing.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
lyle sloan wrote:
>> Or how about wire it to your regen so that when you stop, you aren't
>> wasting energy while your mechanical brakes are applied at full stop.
Paul G. wrote:
> Electric vehicles don't use any battery power as soon as you take your
> foot off the throttle (1). There is no power to save when stopped.
He may be thinking of the Toyota and Honda hybrids, which *do* use power even
at a dead stop. They felt it necessary to imitate the "creep" of an ICE with
automatic transmission.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> What were you getting for range just prior to replacing the pack?
I started talking about replacing the pack over a year ago, when a 16 mile trip
started went into crawl-home-mode for the last mile or so. But careful driving
made the normal 10 mile usage still viable, so ... I waited until 10 miles
became iffy.
> I know of one owner of a 97' Force who is over 18k miles. He says the
> pack that's in the car is the original gel cell pack. While his range
> isn't what it would be if the pack was new, the batts continue to work
> fine. He doesn't have a BMS.
The advantage of a BADICHEQ Battery Management System, and the like, is that it
collects the data for you, automatically and continuously, so it is possible to
see just how you are doing. Truth to tell, I only looked at the data once in
2001, '02 and '04 since it wasn't telling me anything new. There was no
obvious weakest-link and day-to-day driving felt fine. The BADICHEQ's
dashboard display told me all I wanted to know.
But at the end, there are some interesting numbers over 10 years:
Number of cycles 5844
Number of complete charges 1809
Number of total discharges 25
DRIVING ATTITUDE
I-range
87..99% 1.5%
75..86% 1.4%
62..74% 12.5%
50..61% 6.3%
37..49% 11.3%
25..36% 14.1%
12..24% 52.9%
I take the ATTITUDE numbers to mean that indeed most of the driving was gentle.
We use the Force as a town-car, and there are not a lot of hills around here,
so a lot of driving is at 50 Amps or less. Maximum drive current is 220 Amps,
but we typically keep the 110 Amp limit ("Normal") turned on.
The data also shows that Block 3 was the one that was the weak one on that last
trip, getting to 1.5 V / cell (9 V / block) at the end of that drive. The
second weakest was Block 11: 1.9 V / cell (11.4 V / block).
What is interesting is that during the last dozen drives on the old pack, block
3 was _not_ routinely the one with lowest voltage at the end of the drive. It
was only occasionally in the bottom 5 blocks. In fact, during the last dozen
drives there was no obvious weakest link. I take this to mean that the
BADICHEQ did an excellent job of keeping all of the blocks "topped off".
Opinion: Clearly there are lots of cars that do fine without BMS. I still
think there is a strong case for using one. I did not even once open the
battery boxes after I replaced the one block in 1998. Joan was the principle
driver from 2003 on, and all she did was unplug it, go to work, run errands,
and plug it in; about 4-15 miles each workday. The _promise_ of an electric
car is on that requires minimum maintenance and attention. I see a BMS as an
essential element of achieving that promise, and I think this car has come
damn close, at least as far as batteries go. Check with me again in another 10
years.
PS: It's been 3 years since the last gearbox oil change. I plan to do that
this weekend.
Other maintenance: new tires; new brake pads; windshield wiper blades; car
wash.
Repairs: charger, 1997, 1999; collision, 2001
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
7,000 RPM is the max limit for ADC 9" motors. Mine has an alarm set for
6500, but I've never set it off.
Joseph H. Strubhar
E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web: www.gremcoinc.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "TiM M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:53 PM
Subject: Speed sensor on the Zilla
> I just got the speed sensor connected on my
> truck. I have an older ADC 9" motor that has a tail
> shaft that doesn't protrude outside the motor housing.
> I machined a small Al rod with a tapped hole through
> it. I put a set screw in the hole that engages the
> small counter sink in the tail shaft that centers the
> Al rod. JB weld holds it in place. I then used RTV to
> hold the outer plastic cup against the motor housing.
> I didn't want to pull the motor to add the speed
> sensor. So far it seems to me working well.
> What I don't know is what's the RPM limit for the
> ADC 9"? I've heard 5k bandied about. Is this a good
> number to set the limit to, or is this the max RPM the
> motor should see and the limit should be set lower for
> motor longevity?
>
> Thanks for the info,
>
> TiM
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! Mail - PC Magazine Editors' Choice 2005
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey folks,
Been lurking for a bit just wondering while looking through electro
automotives' site and at $4000 difference are the improvements of AC worth the
cash layout? Comparing the light weight AC system to the basic universal DC
system. Glider is a 1200lbs no batts, VW kit
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a crash your foot, leg, entire body may well be jammed under the dash on
top of the accelerator peddle.
_____________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wis.
At 07:19 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
But if the main contactor is opened everytime you release your foot off the
accel peddle it's not necessary unless it's rated 500A and can be placed in
series with the pack but as far as I know they aren't high current rated).
Mark
----- Original Message -----
From: "Nick Austin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: Inertia Switch
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 06:23:05PM -0700, Rush wrote:
> > Is it recommended to have an inertia switch?
> >
>
> It lowers your odds of death after an accident.
>
> I think the first responders would like it more as well.
>
> Safety is always a good thing.
>
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Tue, Nov 29, 2005 at 09:38:31AM -0500, Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3) wrote:
> Your batreg system is very interesting to me. I want to implement
> something like it for my car. Can you use them on floodeds?
Absolutely. But it is important to get the proper charging profile for the
specifics of the batteries you have. I dare say most lead-acid floodeds can be
treated the same, but what do I know. My BADICHEQ was programmed by the
factory.
> Right now my
> initial plan is to use Hawkers (I have 40 of them) but my ultimate goal is
> to install T-145s. What is the website for your system so I can learn more
> about them?
The BADICHEQ is made by Mentzer Electronic GmbH. I don't know if they have any
representation in the US.
http://Mentzer.de
Click on english
Battery-Management
There are 3 models of BADICHEQ. Also useful:
http://www.mentzer.de/Sample_Battery_Management.117.0.html?&L=1
http://www.mentzer.de/uploads/media/General_Description_BADICHEQ3000_EN.pdf
And if you ask Google about "battery management system" you'll find many
variations on the theme.
And, as I said earlier, the PowerCheq from PowerDesigners.com looks like a very
scalable balancing technology. They also make chargers.
And this looks interesting ...
http://www.acpropulsion.com/Products/Battery_mgt.htm
Basically, the message is "study up" before making any decision.
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before hearing the stories about excides golf cart batteries , I bought 40
of them for my work truck. With the electric mower using 1500 kwh ( about 10
ah for each /yard form the truck's 150v pack) the mower being charged form
my work truck , the 25 bats where not up to par . The lawn bis has slowed
down , but I'm still doing 5 a day , so the mower can easy use 1/2 the packs
ah. I have some other reasons for packing those golfers in there. My mower
has 8 orbitals and I'd like to be able to dump charge to get a fast 10 min
charge , for places where I have a few yards together like the bad @ss 4 I
wrote about before. Got them in and all in all the truck doesn't feel that
bad . I can't really tell how much of a difference the weight makes as I've
dropped my voltage for 150 to 120 so its going to use more amps because of
this also . Now I'm running 2 120 strings . I haven't yet tried a dump
charge , but I think the 120v truck into the 96 v mower is about right .
I'll have some kind of resistance on the first try . Any comments on this
please let me know :-) . I don't think I'll kill the golfers with the lawn
mower :-) but with 40 of them swinging at my mower their won't be much of a
voltage drop as the charge so I'll have to watch this . The last 3 weeks
have been a lot of fun , Yes I'm enjoying my job like never before , Still
after 3 week , but then I'm still enjoying driving my electric truck after
10 years . One thing that has surprised me is that I really don't need a
long run time on the mower , just a fast recharge time . Most of the time
the mower is charged back up by the time I pull up to the next yard.
a few days ago I had a day where I didn't get to plug in , had charged the
mower batteries up before the last yard which used 15 ah or about 1/2 the
mower pack . The truck was low and on the way home and the voltage started
to fall fast . I have a dryer outlet on the mower in which I plug my
electric edger in . So I plugged the truck charger pfc 30 into the mower and
started pumping 10 amp into the truck , and made it home .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 11/29/05, STEVE CLUNN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So I plugged the truck charger pfc 30 into the mower and
> started pumping 10 amp into the truck , and made it home .
Can you charge the mower back off the truck and keep driving forever? :-)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have committed to attend the EDTA Conference in Vancouver BC Dec. 6-8
with a little $$ help from SEVA, and well... it's a day after my Birthday.
Want to POSE a few questions to SEVA members and EVDL readers:
1: Who are planning to attend. (Always nice to meet in person folks you
have been chatting with for years...)
2: What questions would you like to see addressed, i.e. possible answers
I could bring back to you all.
3: Comments on the usefulness of the Conference in General.
(I know in advance, I am going to HIT HARD the Fuel Cell folks with
tough questions about economic viability, energy-in-energy-out
efficiency, and COST and complexity of FCV's and cost of servicing... )
If you need a little INPUT to create questions, check out the EDTA Web
site at: www.edtaconference.com/agenda.html
Many Thanks to all who would respond....
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi George
Welcome to the EVDL.
This is an old debate, and you will get a wide variety of opinions.
Series-wound DC is much cheaper, and dumber, and less reliable, but you can
make a lot of power with it fairly easily. Most use it and it is easy to
work with and understand.
OTOH, I believe that the Siemens systems sold by Victor at Metric Mind
www.metricmind.com have a zero failure rate and are more efficient, and
totally programmable. AC systems generally run at substantially higher
voltages than DC.
If you have big bucks, the systems offered by AC Propulsion are
state-of-the-art.
http://acpropulsion.com/Products/AC_150.htm
Since there are more players now getting into EV production, I suspect the
price of AC systems will eventually come down.
george michals wrote:
Hey folks,
Been lurking for a bit just wondering while looking through electro
automotives' site and at $4000 difference are the improvements of AC worth
the cash layout? Comparing the light weight AC system to the basic
universal DC system. Glider is a 1200lbs no batts, VW kit
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
<<<He may be thinking of the Toyota and Honda hybrids, which *do* use power even
at a dead stop. They felt it necessary to imitate the "creep" of an ICE with
automatic transmission.>>>
The Ranger does this, too. I hate it, shifting to N at nearly every long stop. I
wish there was a way to change the programming - anyone know how?
Of course, if you could take out the creep, you could also up the peak current
to where Ford started, about the performance of a small V8 rather than the
current 4-banger level (the ICE drivers couldn't help putting their feet into
it to get their own EV grins at the cost of bad range).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cheap and dirty controller for dump charging.
With the alternator field current at zero close the switch, after the motor
and alternator are up to speed only a small current will be flowing.
Now turn up the field current on the alternator this loads the motor, the
current into the pack being charged is the sum of the motor current and the
alternator output.
SWITCH
SOURCE ___
PACK ____* *____ ___________
| _|__|_ |
_|_ |PERM. | |
| + | |MAGNET| |
| | |MOTOR | |
|___| |______| |
_|_ || |
| + | __||__ |
| | | ALT. | |
|___| |______| |
_|_ | |___________|
| + | | |
| | | |
|___| | |
_|_ | _|_
| + | | | + | PACK BEING
| | | | | CHARGED
|___| | |___|
_|_ | _|_
| + | | | + |
| | | | |
|___| | |___|
_|_ | _|_
| + | | | + |
| | | | |
|___| | |___|
_|_ | _|_
| + | | | + |
| | | | |
|___| | |___|
_|_ | _|_
| + | | | + |
| | | | |
|___| | |___|
|___________|______________|
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
At 09:44 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
Before hearing the stories about excides golf cart batteries , I bought 40
of them for my work truck. With the electric mower using 1500 kwh ( about
10 ah for each /yard form the truck's 150v pack) the mower being charged
form my work truck , the 25 bats where not up to par . The lawn bis has
slowed down , but I'm still doing 5 a day , so the mower can easy use 1/2
the packs ah. I have some other reasons for packing those golfers in
there. My mower has 8 orbitals and I'd like to be able to dump charge to
get a fast 10 min charge , for places where I have a few yards together
like the bad @ss 4 I wrote about before. Got them in and all in all the
truck doesn't feel that bad . I can't really tell how much of a difference
the weight makes as I've dropped my voltage for 150 to 120 so its going to
use more amps because of this also . Now I'm running 2 120 strings . I
haven't yet tried a dump charge , but I think the 120v truck into the 96 v
mower is about right . I'll have some kind of resistance on the first try
. Any comments on this please let me know :-) . I don't think I'll kill
the golfers with the lawn mower :-) but with 40 of them swinging at my
mower their won't be much of a voltage drop as the charge so I'll have to
watch this . The last 3 weeks have been a lot of fun , Yes I'm enjoying my
job like never before , Still after 3 week , but then I'm still enjoying
driving my electric truck after 10 years . One thing that has surprised me
is that I really don't need a long run time on the mower , just a fast
recharge time . Most of the time the mower is charged back up by the time
I pull up to the next yard.
a few days ago I had a day where I didn't get to plug in , had charged the
mower batteries up before the last yard which used 15 ah or about 1/2 the
mower pack . The truck was low and on the way home and the voltage started
to fall fast . I have a dryer outlet on the mower in which I plug my
electric edger in . So I plugged the truck charger pfc 30 into the mower
and started pumping 10 amp into the truck , and made it home .
Steve Clunn
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 11:12 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
Rewired for case where source pack is only a little higher voltage then the
pack being charged. I am not real sure how well this would work in practice.
SWITCH
SOURCE ___
PACK ____* *____ ___________
| _|__|_ |
_|_ |PERM. | |
| + | |MAGNET| |
| | |MOTOR | |
|___| |______| |
_|_ || |
| + | __||__ |
| | | ALT. | |
|___| |_+__-_| |
_|_ | |___________|
| + | |
| | |______________
|___| |
_|_ _|_
| + | | + | PACK BEING
| | | | CHARGED
|___| |___|
_|_ _|_
| + | | + |
| | | |
|___| |___|
_|_ _|_
| + | | + |
| | | |
|___| |___|
_|_ _|_
| + | | + |
| | | |
|___| |___|
_|_ _|_
| + | | + |
| | | |
|___| |___|
|__________________________|
__________
Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
At 09:44 AM 11/29/2005, you wrote:
Before hearing the stories about excides golf cart batteries , I bought
40 of them for my work truck. With the electric mower using 1500 kwh (
about 10 ah for each /yard form the truck's 150v pack) the mower being
charged form my work truck , the 25 bats where not up to par . The lawn
bis has slowed down , but I'm still doing 5 a day , so the mower can easy
use 1/2 the packs ah. I have some other reasons for packing those golfers
in there. My mower has 8 orbitals and I'd like to be able to dump charge
to get a fast 10 min charge , for places where I have a few yards
together like the bad @ss 4 I wrote about before. Got them in and all in
all the truck doesn't feel that bad . I can't really tell how much of a
difference the weight makes as I've dropped my voltage for 150 to 120 so
its going to use more amps because of this also . Now I'm running 2 120
strings . I haven't yet tried a dump charge , but I think the 120v truck
into the 96 v mower is about right . I'll have some kind of resistance on
the first try . Any comments on this please let me know :-) . I don't
think I'll kill the golfers with the lawn mower :-) but with 40 of them
swinging at my mower their won't be much of a voltage drop as the charge
so I'll have to watch this . The last 3 weeks have been a lot of fun ,
Yes I'm enjoying my job like never before , Still after 3 week , but then
I'm still enjoying driving my electric truck after 10 years . One thing
that has surprised me is that I really don't need a long run time on the
mower , just a fast recharge time . Most of the time the mower is charged
back up by the time I pull up to the next yard.
a few days ago I had a day where I didn't get to plug in , had charged
the mower batteries up before the last yard which used 15 ah or about
1/2 the mower pack . The truck was low and on the way home and the
voltage started to fall fast . I have a dryer outlet on the mower in
which I plug my electric edger in . So I plugged the truck charger pfc 30
into the mower and started pumping 10 amp into the truck , and made it home .
Steve Clunn
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Christopher Zach wrote:
> When batteries get cold, the internal resistance seems to go up.
It doesn't just seem to; it *does* go up!
> Is it possible to reverse a cell on a fully charged battery just
> because it's cold and you're drawing hard? How can that happen if
> the cell is not "dead"?
What you're probably seeing is just excessive voltage sag due to the higher
internal resistance when cold. No one cell is actually going negative.
But yes, you *can* reverse a cell that still has charge in it. Think of each
cell as a perfect 2v cell with a resistor in series. The more deeply
discharged the cell gets, the higher that resistor's value. The colder it
gets, the higher that resistor's value.
Suppose you short a cell. The short-circuit current is set by that internal
resistance. If the cell is warm and fully charged, the resistance is so low
that you could see 1000 amps or more. Keep this up for more than a few
seconds, and the lead will melt or the electrolyte will boil. Kaboom!
Destroyed battery.
If the battery is mostly dead, its internal resistance is higher. Shorting it
won't produce the enormous current, so it won't be destroyed immediately
(though you shorten its life from an excessively deep discharge).
Likewise, if it is cold, its resistance is high enough to limit the current.
However, think about where the heat being produced by the internal resistance
is going -- it is heating up the battery! So a cold but fully charged battery
initially delivers a low current, but the current rapidly rises as the
battery heats itself. There will be a short warmup period -- and then comes
the Kaboom!
All this describes what happens to a single cell. You can't reverse a single
cell, so there's little danger of immediate damage. But you CAN reverse a
cell when there are multiple cells in series! The stronger cells force
current to keep flowing thru the weaker cells, and so reverse the voltage
across them.
Forcing the voltage negative on a lead-acid battery causes it to "charge" in
the reverse direction. It isn't built to do this, and will suffer a
significant loss in capacity and life if you try.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Myles Twete wrote:
> Regarding pulling more energy out of batteries at lower rates after
> delivering Peukert capacity, I'd be curious to know how much (e.g. %) of
> the reduced Peukert capacity actually translates into lost energy as a
> function of the current drain vs energy that is recoverable.
Peukert only describes what happens to the AMPhours; not the WATThours.
> 1) Can we estimate the fraction of non-recoverable loss vs recoverable
> capacity as the current increases?
Yes. You have the right idea, by looking at the power lost to the internal
resistance. The difficulty is that the internal resistance is highly variable
depending on state of charge, temperature, age of the battery, recent
charge/discharge history, and other factors.
> 2) Is the non-recoverable loss a function of the Peukert coefficient?
No, in general. Suppose you load a battery at the C/100 rate until it falls to
1.75v/cell and get (say) 100 amphours. Recharge, and load it at the 1C rate
until it reaches 1.75v/cell, and you only get (say) 50 amphours due to the
Peukert effect. But continue loading that "dead" battery at the C/100 rate;
you will get another 50 amphours out of it by the time it reaches 1.75v/cell
again. In other words, the total capacity was still 100 amphours total. The
load current did not affect the amphour capacity.
But it did affect the ENERGY you get out, because the higher current causes
more voltage sag.
> Using Rint ~.004ohm (nominal) for a T-105 battery, at 75amps, we should
> expect an unrecoverable power loss of about 22-23 watts. So, in the
> 115 minutes of rated capacity at 75amps, non-recoverable loss could be
> estimated to be 43watt-hr, or perhaps 7amp-hr.
Rint = 0.004 ohms is a typical value when new, warm, and fully charged. It
rises considerably as the battery discharges.
> we expect Peukert capacities of:
> 404ah at 1amp
> 225ah at 11amps
> 144ah at 75amps
> 121ah at 150amps
> 102ah at 300amps
>
> For constant Rbatt, the heat loss (Rbatt*I^2)*time, respective losses are:
> .004watt * 404hr = 1.62w-hr ( ~ 0.25amp-hr)
> .484watt * 20hr = 9.68w-hr ( ~ 1.6 amp-hr)
> 22.5watt * 1.9hr = 43.1 w-hr ( ~ 7. amp-hr)
> 90watt * 0.81hr = 73. w-hr ( ~ 12. amp-hr)
> 360watt * 0.34hr = 122. w-hr ( ~ 20. amp-hr)
But internal resistance is not even close to constant. We can make a better
guess by calculating the internal resistance from the voltage sag between
no-load and under-load. Suppose it is 6.3v at 0 amps, and 5.9v at 100 amps.
Then Rint = (6.3v-5.9v)/100a = 0.004 ohms.
At the end of a discharge test, the voltage under load is (by definition)
1.75v/cell=5.25v. Its no-load voltage is a function of absolute state of
charge. The absolute capacity is about 400 amphours (the rate at 1 amp):
100% = -0ah = 2.10v/cell = 6.30v
75% = -100ah = 2.06v/cell = 6.18v
50% = -200ah = 2.03v/cell = 6.09v
25% = -300ah = 1.99v/cell = 5.97v
0% = -400ah = 1.90v/cell = 5.70v
Adding the internal resistance at the END of a discharge test to your charts:
0% = -404ah at 1amp Rint = (5.70v-5.25v)/1a = 0.45 ohms
55% = -225ah at 11amps Rint = (6.09v-5.25v)/11a = 0.076 ohms
64% = -144ah at 75amps Rint = (6.12v-5.25v)/75a = 0.012 ohms
70% = -121ah at 150amps Rint = (6.16v-5.25v)/150a = 0.006 ohms
75% = -102ah at 300amps Rint = (6.18v-5.25v)/300a = 0.003 ohms
To do this "right" we need a graph of the internal resistance as a function of
load current and state of charge. That's hard to come by. But we could
approximate it by taking the average of its initial and ending values the
above chart shows. Not as good as a graph, but better than assuming Rint is
constant. Your chart becomes:
For constant Rbatt, the heat loss (Rbatt*I^2)*time, respective losses are:
amps^2 x (Rhi+Rlo)/2ohm x ah/a = watthours
1^2 x (0.450+0.003)/2 x 404/1 = 91.5wh (~15.2ah)
11^2 x (0.076+0.003)/2 x 225/11 = 97.7wh (~16.3ah)
75^2 x (0.012+0.003)/2 x 144/75 = 81.0wh (~13.5ah)
150^2 x (0.006+0.003)/2 x 121/150 = 81.7wh (~13.6ah)
300^2 x (0.003+0.003)/2 x 102/300 = 91.8wh (~15.3ah)
Interestingly... this says the watthours consumed by internal heating is
constant, regardless of discharge current. The reduced discharge time
compensates for the higher wattage.
> I.E. a significant percentage of the Peukert Capacity reduction is actually
> LOST energy and not recoverable, despite the valid sponge or beer
> analogies.
You are correct that energy is lost; but it's not coming from the Peukert
effect, nor is it predicted by Peukert. It's coming primarily from the
VOLTAGE sag due to the internal resistance, which Peukert does not address.
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Hi All;
Well, My Jet Blue tix are ready, to Jet away from cold an' snow for a few
daze. Anybody else goin"? Any of you FLA guyz know the area? Do I REALLY hafta
pay over 100 bux a nite for lodgings?I'm just guessing that the " Strip" there,
if there IS one there, would be cheepie Ma an' Pa places, along the way.Where
is EVerybody else staying?
Maybe a bit early for now, but I thought I'd bring it up.
Seeya There!
Bob
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When I drill the motor shafts for the pilot shaft I
use a cobalt bit dry. It cuts like butter and since
there is no cuting fluid, it's easy to blow the chips
away without contaminating the bearing. The trick with
cobalts is they like twice the speed and twice the
feed of high speed steel bits. The chips coming off
the bit should be shiny metal not heat discolored. if
they become discolored just back off a bit or slow
down till they are shiny again.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
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Somehow, I'm guessing this one has gone around before, but the last
thread I found in the archives was 2001, so here goes...
Is it possible to set up a bank of capacitors to equalize to the main
traction pack voltage (e.g. 2 parallel strings of 120v) and then become
isolated during the acceleration phase and switched into a higher
voltage (e.g. setting two parallel 120v banks to a series bank - 240v)
for acceleration improvement without diminishing the life of the
batteries.
In total, if this is possible, it may be a great solution for longevity
+ performance. I expect the enclosure for the caps would be critical
(safety), and have yet to calculate to see if the required capacitance
would yeild a trailer to haul the circuit...or if caps are made to pass
400+ amps within a reasonable budget. I did run across the following
regarding 'Ultra Capacitors'...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra-capacitor
The article mentions "sophisticated electronic control and switching
equipment" - which may be the reason we don't hear of this more in
practical applications (EE's - please explain if this is true). In my
simplified ideal, I figure a soft-start circuit current limited to X
amps is all that's needed with a couple micro switches and
contactors...making a 'merge circuit' and leaving the fine speed control
to the standard controller.
Thanks in advance!
Craig
Electric Daytona
http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
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Hey all:
Well, I am trying to outfit an S-10 conversion designed for T-105's.
Trojan, in its infinate wisdom, has decided to change the type posts
they make available on its batteries and I question if it is designed to
allow for higher amp flow - not enough surface contact between the
cable and the post. Please see the link:
http://www.trojan-battery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=T-105
for a better view of their "new" posts. Even the battery dealer has
problems with this design but Trojan will not respond to them.
I am now faced with three options:
1. Have the dealer weld an acceptable (what I have always been
taught to call an SAE) post on 20 batteries. Both the dealer and a fellow
customer of the dealer (a golf cart company) would not recommend this.
2. Go with a Johnson Battery with the same foot print as a T-105 and
a one year warantee (their web page sucks, all I have found out from
the dealer is that the battery is an A1055 and the web page indicates
that it is made in Mexico)
www.gesbatterysystems.com
3. Go with a Crown Battery with the same foot print as a T-105 and a
two year warantee (a CR255)
http://www.crownbattery.com/en/products/sli/dc_battery_spec%27s.htm
I am sure that on paper and via the salespeople, both batteries are
great and would provide years and miles of extreme pleasure (just the
Exide was supposed to do years ago on a different car - it did not). My
question: Is any one familiar with the Johnson or Crown battery and
rather or not they can accept the load requirements of an EV?
Jim
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