EV Digest 5028
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Festiva or Metro
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: MG Challenge.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: MG Challenge.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for EV
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for EV
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) advanced dc motor
by "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: advanced dc motor (temp sensor)
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: EV acceptance idea
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: advanced dc motor (temp sensor)
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: EV acceptance idea
by Joel Shellman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Small car, Big heart
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Chris Buresh)
12) Re: Vs: Re: Cooling in cold climate
by Seppo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: advanced dc motor
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: EV acceptance idea
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV acceptance idea
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
We have been selling a bolt in Geo kit for the last 10 years. It fits
all Geo's from 1990 up to 2002.
http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/GeoKit/Geo-Kit.html
Our S-10 kit is much more popular though as it gives better range and
battery life.
http://www.canev.com/KitsComp/S10Kit/S10-Kit.html
BFN
Randy
Subject:
RE: Festiva or Metro
From:
Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Tue, 27 Dec 2005 05:29:45 -0800 (PST)
To:
[email protected]
To:
[email protected]
People refrain from making a kit around a car like
this, b/c it gets updated every 4 years. My point was
to say, "stick with the 92-95; don't worry that later
models may have different dimensions and not be so
easy to get batteries into. No, they (92-95) aren't
still in production, but 12 mos. x 20K cars per mo., x
4 model years =960,000 vehicles, they way I see it.
--- keith vansickle <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I'd still say the 92-95 Honda Civics are a far
superior candidate to either of the rigs
mentioned.
It simply has a huge spare tire well that shrieks,
"I'm MADE for flooded USBatts!" I also consider
it
a
safer roll cage in the event of accident, and the
fact
is, there were, and still are, 20-25,000 running
off
the line PER MONTH.
Are you implying that this vehicle is still in
production and for sale somewhere in the world??????
You will have spare parts,
aftermarket parts, etc. for a _very_ long time.
The biggest hassle (as is with other cars,
too),
is
yanking the heater core, and swapping the power
rack
for a manual one.
Newbies, if you're interested, inquire about the
DVD/VHS.
I'd start making a kit available, (contactor
mount,
controller mount, throttle mount, motor/vac. pump
mount, heater relay mount), but I'm just not
convinced
there is a market at the ready, yet. And I use
DCP
DCDC converter and controller, which don't quite
exist
anymore.
peace,
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Nothing wrong with blazing a new trail. My New
Beetle EV is only one of
three in the world.
What is nice about the Metro is that there is a
lot
more expertise available
if you want parts or advice. Before I did the
New
Beetle conversion, I
purchased a 96 Metro, and it has enough room to
accommodate a 9" ADC motor.
good luck.
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: December 26, 2005 1:36 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Festiva or Metro
If you were converting a "small car" today,
would
you rather used a late
model Ford Festiva or Geo Metro. I looked at
both
cars earlier today and I
believe the Festiva to be a superior conversion
candidate. But, I am
interested in what others have to say, and why
other
people aren't choosing
the Festiva.
In my opinion, advantages of the Festiva:
There is at least 2.75" more length to fit a
motor
which opens up a lot more
options than the 8" ADC.
- You could even easily fit a Warp 9"
for
some serious performance.
Battery mounting appears to be easier,
especially
if
you take out the rear
seat, which is very easy Currently, you may be
able
to get a donor car
pretty inexpensively
In my opinion, disadvantages of the Festiva:
No off the shelf kit, as far as I know
Few examples to work from
Parts availability - 5 years from now - is
questionable The cars are
generally older and more difficult to find in
low
mileage Stock brakes seem
a little small - from what I could tell from the
disassembled car
I would like to know what others think, and why
they
decided to go with the
Metro rather than the Festiva. I think the
Festiva
with the 9" motor and 14
x
12 V AGM batteries and a 1k Zilla controller
locked
in 2nd gear would make a
great car. I think better than a comparable
Metro
which would be limited to
a 8" ADC and 12 x 12 V batteries (I've heard
space
issues). Anyone need to
correct me?
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD
available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe
came
out of the steering wheel? Are you saving any gas
for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL - Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rather bright White blue I hear.
Or a pretty pink....in the Bunsen burner flame test.
What ever if We have flame, We run....like hell.
We jsut need to have it launch and not vaporize the battereis and feed
cables.
Still it would be fun to have the gas Guy...one of our most skilled Build
Team members, to have to do some last minute tuning just to keep up....
This I doubt.. Ron Jenkins looks to be a pretty good tuner...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: MG Challenge.
> Hey Rich,
>
> Don't forget the EV Scare. It has happen to me more than once or twice
> at the line. The pressure is so great on the ICE driver not to lose to
> something that runs on batteries that they redlight. When you add in
> the "legendary" power of the HEMI, the TV cameras, and the driver's
> personal ties to the ICE car, the race may be over before it starts. If
> not, I have this feeling we will still have something for them. I will
> be happy with 13.50 and I really don't care if the whole thing blows as
> long as it's past 1321 ft. What color does Lithium burn?
>
> SDL
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: [email protected]
> Sent: Mon, 26 Dec 2005 22:21:29 -0800
> Subject: MG Challenge.
>
> Hey listers
>
> Monster Garage followers!
>
> The Monster Garage Challenge will happen this Friday at the Bakersfield
> drag
> strip. In Bakersfield California.
>
> We will be running Bella Da Red against a 426 Hemi Car, that is being
> buildt
> this week.
>
> So... we should get our Butt kicked pretty hard.
>
> But... we will do the best we can...
>
> I get another week of running around with my tail on fire...in front of
> TV
> cameras. Hey I am getting good at this.
>
> I will be happy with 13s. And not breaking the car. OK.... Nuff said!
>
> 13s 14s 8s and 1400 hp.. yea right. A good clean run and no fireworks
> ,injuries
> or law suits is my goal.
>
> So... more fun to follow.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Madman
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bella Da Red is the Mg Car as I have named her.
She's Big Red and has Serious heart.
She should do OK... We need a lot of strip time to get the most out of her.
The Cameras will be on us, and we have never taken her down the strip.
This is NOT the best racing form...In fact it's a Sunday driver's type of
racing...
No we don't need help. I don't even know if an of the public will be allowed
on site..
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "keith vansickle" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 4:14 AM
Subject: Re: MG Challenge.
> hey rich
> what time???I am going to be in big bear and it is not
> too far from bakersfield. and what the 'ell is Bella
> Da Red...does it have any chance of even getting close
> to the hemi??? Is it open to spectators? Want some
> moral support???
> keith
>
> --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Hey listers
> >
> > Monster Garage followers!
> >
> > The Monster Garage Challenge will happen this Friday
> > at the Bakersfield drag strip. In Bakersfield
> > California.
> >
> > We will be running Bella Da Red against a 426 Hemi
> > Car, that is being buildt this week.
> >
> > So... we should get our Butt kicked pretty hard.
> >
> > But... we will do the best we can...
> >
> > I get another week of running around with my tail on
> > fire...in front of TV cameras. Hey I am getting
> > good at this.
> >
> > I will be happy with 13s. And not breaking the car.
> > OK.... Nuff said!
> >
> > 13s 14s 8s and 1400 hp.. yea right. A good clean run
> > and no fireworks ,injuries or law suits is my goal.
> >
> > So... more fun to follow.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Madman
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
> __________________________________
> Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
> http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have already changed my mind on the slipper clutch thing. During
normal-electric operation if you are cruising say 30 mph and you take your
foot out of the throttle the motor stops. When you step on it again it revs
up then slams. BAD IDEA. Sorry I brought it up! Other options would be a
clutch or band. I think the easiest might be parts from a lower unit of an
out drive or outboard motor. They are called "Shift Dogs" purely mechanical
and controlled by cable.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 11:51 AM
Subject: RE: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for EV
Mark,
That is my current thinking. Comet makes a CVT torque converter
that will handle 200 HP. I think it will work but spending $400 for
something that DOESNT work is kinda pointless. I have to do some serious
research before forking over the dough.
Jody
-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Grasser [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 10:23 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for
EV
Why not create... or buy, a slipper clutch and let the electric motor be
motionless when not being used. I don't know if they are comercially
available but I do know that most automatics have them, I think in the 1st
gear assembly. Don't worry they should be able to handle the torque, but
you
would have to design and build a suitable housing. Nice part about this is
you could then gear it for higher motor rpm.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:57 AM
Subject: Re: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for
EV
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: '[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:42 AM
Subject: RE: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for
EV
My question though is this:
My plan is to connect my electric motor to my rear end pumpkin directly
via
a gear and chain. The reason I am asking for max RPM is that I will be
running a gas motor at highway speeds. Right now it looks like my
driveshaft speeds will not exceed 5000 RPM but if I gear down the
electric
motor for good city driving the highway speeds will drive the electric
motor
to about 6 or 7,000 rpm. The electric motor will NOT be energized
during
this time but will be freewheeling. I just want to make sure the
electric
motor is not going to be damaged when in gas mode. I have thought about
using a comet torque converter. They have a model that can take 200 HP.
The only thought I have is can I adapt the driven pulley to have a
driveshaft connection on each end so I can bolt it to the pumpkin and
have a
PTO connection for the driveshaft of the gas engine.
Your electric motor rpm will be lower then the engine rpm.
Lets say the engine is at 4000 rpm and drive line is at 4000 rpm, if the
differential gear is 4 to 1 ratio, then the axle rpm is 1000 rpm.
If you connect a 3 inch sprocket on the drive line and a 9 inch sprocket
on the motor, this is a 3 to 1 ratio. For every 3 rpm that the driveline
rotates the motor will rotate 1 rpm.
The maximum rpm of the engine at 5000 rpm would be 5000/3:1 = 1666 rpm.
Therefore the overall gear ratio to the axles is 4:1 x 3:1 when motor is
running would be 12:1 ratio.
The formula for speed of vehicle:
RPM x Wheel Circumference
MPH = ---------------------------------
Overall Axle Ratio x 1056
RPM is the electric motor RPM
Wheel Circumference is the rolling circumference in inches by marking
the
tire and rotate it one revolution on a
flat grade.
Overall Axle Ratio is the transmission gear ratio or any other gear
reduction
ratio times the differential gear.
1056 is a constant to convert the axle rpm which is in inches per
minute
to
feet per minute and than to miles per hour or:
5280 ft per mile x 12 inches per ft.
1056 = ---------------------------------------
60 minutes per hour
Therefore the mph at 4000 electric motor rpm would be with a wheel
circumference of 85 inches using a 4:1 axle ratio and a sprocket ratio of
3:1 would be:
1000 RPM x 85 inches
MPH = ----------------------------- = 6.7 Mph
12:1 ratio x 1056
Therefore for every 1000 RPM, you have 6.7 Mph
At 7000 electric motor RPM than you will have 7 x 6.7 = 46.9 Mph.
In my EV, my 2nd gear ratio is about 13.5:1 which is about 35 Mph. I
therefore can shift from 19.5:1 1st gear to a 5.57:1 gear which gives me
about 92 MPH at 6000 Rpm with a 90 inch wheel circumference.
I normally have to stay in 2nd gear for any speed under 35 mph which
keeps the RPM up and motor amperes down to 150 amps and battery amps to
50.
If your EV weight is at 3000 lbs than a 3:1 sprocket gear ratio for a
overall ratio of 9:1 will work for about 100 motor amperes. For every
1000 lbs of weight its about a 3:1 ratio increase, so a 4000 lb EV should
be at 12:1 and 5000 lb at 15:1 and etc.
Roland
-----Original Message-----
From: James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:50 PM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for EV
At 06:23 AM 16/12/05 -0500, Jody wrote:
>What is the maximum RPM limit of the WarP 9" ???? Is the limit because
the
>brushes will pull away from the commutator or the bearings won't take
it?
Hi Jody
Your question reveals a misconception or a misunderstanding you seem to
have with brush/commutator assembly. If the commutator is not perfectly
round, or not 'true' to the rotation of the rotor, the brushes will
bounce
at speed, arc and die. This will happen very quickly, so a great deal of
effort is placed in making sure that the brushes do not bounce, i.e. the
commutator is truly round.
Once the brushes are running on a round commutator, sheer speed cannot
harm
them, there is no centrifical or other forces being put onto the to the
brushes from the comutator. There comes a point where with enough volts
and
enough amps, the gaps between the commutator bars cannot clear the
energy
and then an arc occurrs that goes brush-to-brush over the surface of the
commutator.
The commutator itself is the weakest link. It IS affected by centrifical
force, so that high RPMs are trying very hard to throw the commutator
(and
the windings, but they are held in a different, stronger, manner) away
from
the rotor.
The voltage and power requirements of the commutator prevents the
commutator from being made in really small diameters, so we will always
have this limitation, one way or another.
The limits to a commutators' RPMs are due to the material that it is
constructed from. In ye olde days of double-breasted sandshoes and
leather
flywheels (as my electronics instructor of 20-odd years ago used to put
it)
commutators were constructed mechanically. The commutator bars were
insulated with mica sheet and held in place by steel rings each end. The
limit on RPMs with this method is when the copper of the bar 'bows out'
enough to allow the mica to come loose or cause brush problems, or the
copper bar breaks.
In more recent decades, commutator bars are held in by a hard plastic of
some description - generally 'bakelite' or a similar product. If this
gets
too hot, or exceeds its' mechanical strength, a single bar is loosened
first, and nothing is there to stop it flying out, so EVERYTHING gets
smashed, brush gear, all the other comm bars (which as soon as the first
bar is loose quickly follow).
Madman pointed out on-list a couple of years ago that racer-EVers had
placed kevlar banding onto their commutators to prevent this wholesale
destruction in the event of comm failiure. I don't know how common this
method is, or how effective it is, so if anyone (Rich?) knows, please
post
it. Until Jim Husted recognised my commutator for a steel-ring type, I
had
planned on Kevlar banding my commutator, but there would be no benefit.
Hope this helps
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: '[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:48 AM
Subject: RE: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for EV
Rolan you are the other way around on the driveshaft to motor relationship.
If the electric motor has a 1 inch sprocket and the driveshaft has a 3 inch
sprocket when the driveshaft rotates one turn the motor has done 3. That
means if the gas engine is driving the driveshaft at 3000 RPM in 1:1 (4th
gear) then the electric motor will be freewheeling at 9,000 rpm!
Ok, your right, my mind went blank there for a moment. Roland
Now, if the motors bearings can handle that I will be OK with it. I am
actually thinking of using a comet torque converter so that the electric
drive will have a CVT axle and the gas portion will have its regular 5
speed. Comet makes a CVT torque converter rated for 200 hp. It is meant
for snowmobiles and cushman type carts. The only thing that I am wrapped
around the axle about now is I would need to make a shaft for the driven
pulley of the torque converter that had a flange for the rear end pumpkin
and another one for bolting on the driveshaft. As I understand it while I
am in gas mode the driven pulley would just freewheel keeping parasitic
losses to a minimum and also safeguarding the electric motor from being over
rev'd.
-----Original Message-----
From: Roland Wiench [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 9:57 AM
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Subject: Re: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for
EV
----- Original Message -----
From: Dewey, Jody R ATC (CVN75 IM3)<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL
PROTECTED]>>
To:
'[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'<mailto:'[email protected]'>>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 5:42 AM
Subject: RE: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for
EV
My question though is this:
My plan is to connect my electric motor to my rear end pumpkin directly
via
a gear and chain. The reason I am asking for max RPM is that I will be
running a gas motor at highway speeds. Right now it looks like my
driveshaft speeds will not exceed 5000 RPM but if I gear down the electric
motor for good city driving the highway speeds will drive the electric
motor
to about 6 or 7,000 rpm. The electric motor will NOT be energized during
this time but will be freewheeling. I just want to make sure the electric
motor is not going to be damaged when in gas mode. I have thought about
using a comet torque converter. They have a model that can take 200 HP.
The only thought I have is can I adapt the driven pulley to have a
driveshaft connection on each end so I can bolt it to the pumpkin and have
a
PTO connection for the driveshaft of the gas engine.
Your electric motor rpm will be lower then the engine rpm.
Lets say the engine is at 4000 rpm and drive line is at 4000 rpm, if the
differential gear is 4 to 1 ratio, then the axle rpm is 1000 rpm.
If you connect a 3 inch sprocket on the drive line and a 9 inch sprocket
on the motor, this is a 3 to 1 ratio. For every 3 rpm that the driveline
rotates the motor will rotate 1 rpm.
The maximum rpm of the engine at 5000 rpm would be 5000/3:1 = 1666 rpm.
Therefore the overall gear ratio to the axles is 4:1 x 3:1 when motor is
running would be 12:1 ratio.
The formula for speed of vehicle:
RPM x Wheel Circumference
MPH = ---------------------------------
Overall Axle Ratio x 1056
RPM is the electric motor RPM
Wheel Circumference is the rolling circumference in inches by marking
the
tire and rotate it one revolution on a
flat grade.
Overall Axle Ratio is the transmission gear ratio or any other gear
reduction
ratio times the differential gear.
1056 is a constant to convert the axle rpm which is in inches per minute
to
feet per minute and than to miles per hour or:
5280 ft per mile x 12 inches per ft.
1056 = ---------------------------------------
60 minutes per hour
Therefore the mph at 4000 electric motor rpm would be with a wheel
circumference of 85 inches using a 4:1 axle ratio and a sprocket ratio of
3:1 would be:
1000 RPM x 85 inches
MPH = ----------------------------- = 6.7 Mph
12:1 ratio x 1056
Therefore for every 1000 RPM, you have 6.7 Mph
At 7000 electric motor RPM than you will have 7 x 6.7 = 46.9 Mph.
In my EV, my 2nd gear ratio is about 13.5:1 which is about 35 Mph. I
therefore can shift from 19.5:1 1st gear to a 5.57:1 gear which gives me
about 92 MPH at 6000 Rpm with a 90 inch wheel circumference.
I normally have to stay in 2nd gear for any speed under 35 mph which keeps
the RPM up and motor amperes down to 150 amps and battery amps to 50.
If your EV weight is at 3000 lbs than a 3:1 sprocket gear ratio for a
overall ratio of 9:1 will work for about 100 motor amperes. For every 1000
lbs of weight its about a 3:1 ratio increase, so a 4000 lb EV should be at
12:1 and 5000 lb at 15:1 and etc.
Roland
-----Original Message-----
From: James Massey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, December 16, 2005 5:50 PM
To:
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
Subject: RPM, brushes and commutators, was: RE: CVT transmission for EV
At 06:23 AM 16/12/05 -0500, Jody wrote:
>What is the maximum RPM limit of the WarP 9" ???? Is the limit because
the
>brushes will pull away from the commutator or the bearings won't take it?
Hi Jody
Your question reveals a misconception or a misunderstanding you seem to
have with brush/commutator assembly. If the commutator is not perfectly
round, or not 'true' to the rotation of the rotor, the brushes will bounce
at speed, arc and die. This will happen very quickly, so a great deal of
effort is placed in making sure that the brushes do not bounce, i.e. the
commutator is truly round.
Once the brushes are running on a round commutator, sheer speed cannot
harm
them, there is no centrifical or other forces being put onto the to the
brushes from the comutator. There comes a point where with enough volts
and
enough amps, the gaps between the commutator bars cannot clear the energy
and then an arc occurrs that goes brush-to-brush over the surface of the
commutator.
The commutator itself is the weakest link. It IS affected by centrifical
force, so that high RPMs are trying very hard to throw the commutator (and
the windings, but they are held in a different, stronger, manner) away
from
the rotor.
The voltage and power requirements of the commutator prevents the
commutator from being made in really small diameters, so we will always
have this limitation, one way or another.
The limits to a commutators' RPMs are due to the material that it is
constructed from. In ye olde days of double-breasted sandshoes and leather
flywheels (as my electronics instructor of 20-odd years ago used to put
it)
commutators were constructed mechanically. The commutator bars were
insulated with mica sheet and held in place by steel rings each end. The
limit on RPMs with this method is when the copper of the bar 'bows out'
enough to allow the mica to come loose or cause brush problems, or the
copper bar breaks.
In more recent decades, commutator bars are held in by a hard plastic of
some description - generally 'bakelite' or a similar product. If this gets
too hot, or exceeds its' mechanical strength, a single bar is loosened
first, and nothing is there to stop it flying out, so EVERYTHING gets
smashed, brush gear, all the other comm bars (which as soon as the first
bar is loose quickly follow).
Madman pointed out on-list a couple of years ago that racer-EVers had
placed kevlar banding onto their commutators to prevent this wholesale
destruction in the event of comm failiure. I don't know how common this
method is, or how effective it is, so if anyone (Rich?) knows, please post
it. Until Jim Husted recognised my commutator for a steel-ring type, I had
planned on Kevlar banding my commutator, but there would be no benefit.
Hope this helps
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would like to put a temperature sensor on the motor,
would like to know location and what is normal and extreme reading .
9 inch fb1-4001-a
s/n 319
class h
2-2-93
120 dc
running on 144 volt dc with a auburn water cooled
mpwc600-144 controler
thanks
marshfield MO
jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Lockwood wrote:
I would like to put a temperature sensor on the motor,
would like to know location and what is normal and extreme reading .
9 inch fb1-4001-a
s/n 319
class h
2-2-93
120 dc
running on 144 volt dc with a auburn water cooled
mpwc600-144 controler
thanks
marshfield MO
jim
The best indicator that I am aware of is installed directly into one of the
brushes-
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=446&product_id=1497
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=446&product_id=1491
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 27 Dec 2005 at 10:50, jerryd wrote:
> one thing I won't be targeting is economy as it is a
> loser conjuring up cheap images and lowering the sellability
> of the Freedom EV.
Hmm, you seem to have changed your tune, Jerry. Earlier, you were
interested in producing an "EV for the masses" (my phrase). Back in April
you said :
"... I can build 2 seat EV's that go about 100mile range and 75mph, though
not at the same time, on lead batteries! And sell it at $13k base price
making a nice profit at that by good design, engineering and KIS."
Then on the 17th of August you wrote :
"And if we are to put EV's on the road without subsidies, we must give value
in EV's. The best way to give value is thru good design for eff,
lightweight, low drag so the material, EV drive, batt pack can be reasonably
priced so Joe Average can afford it and still give excellent range, speed,
acceleration.
"My most enthusiastic customers are joe and amazingly jane sixpacks!!!
"I use proven industral EV componants that have a low cost, high
reliability, value. Should I use overpriced compontants like [Victor's
Siemens drives] so it's price would have to be twice as much, about $26k vs
$13k for my proven EV componants, whole EV? Isn't that why earlier EV's
have failed by being overpriced so few can afford them?
"I get low cost, high value from good design with manufacturing in mind
using proven parts. I believe that's the only real way we will get many EV's
on the road."
= = = = =
Perhaps I'm misapprehending your objectives, Jerry, but it appears that you
now think that you shouldn't pursue "ordinary folks" as customers after all.
Am I wrong about that?
If you did change your target customer, why?
Do you no longer believe that earlier EVs "failed by being overpriced"? If
not for high price, why DID they fail?
Do you no longer believe that "low cost, high value" is the "only real way
we will get many EVs on the road"? If not, what is? Does that even matter?
Is it correct to say that you no longer intend to price the Freedom EV at
around $13k? If so, how much do you expect it to cost?
Who do you think will buy it, if not "joe and amazingly jane sixpack"?
Please suggest demographics and/or psychographics of your target buyer.
What annual household income do you expect your typical customer to have?
Have you conducted formal market research to determine what your target
customer is willing and able to pay for an EV?
I'm just wondering. I've been keeping a coworker posted on this project and
he seemed quite interested in a practical commuter EV that would cost under
$15k. I don't think he'd care to spend much more than that, though. But
then perhaps he's not your target customer.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm glad this is being brought up; I've been wanting to know about this as
well. My motor will have the usual 150C snap switch (I think it's
installed at one of the field shoes?), but I guess I'd like a little more
warning than that.
Is the brush temperature an accurate reflection of the motor's overall
temperature? I guess the important thing is -- are there any situations
in which the winding temperature could approach a dangerous level (say, in
the event of an external blower failure, or during high-current low-rpm
hill climbs with an internal fan) while the brushes are still at a
reasonable temperature?
Or are the brushes pretty much guaranteed to be the hottest thing in the
motor? It seems like the temperature of the brushes isn't really what you
should be interested in though -- carbon will withstand temperatures
orders of magnitude higher than the 180C rating on the winding insulation.
Might it be a good idea to have a sensor installed both on the brush and
on the field? What about motor types other than series DC?
Maybe an IR phototransistor somewhere inside the can to measure average
radiant heat?
--chris
On Tue, December 27, 2005 1:46 pm, Roy LeMeur said:
> Jim Lockwood wrote:
>>I would like to put a temperature sensor on the motor,
>>would like to know location and what is normal and extreme reading .
>>9 inch fb1-4001-a
>>s/n 319
>>class h
>>2-2-93
>>120 dc
>>running on 144 volt dc with a auburn water cooled
>>mpwc600-144 controler
>>thanks
>>marshfield MO
>>jim
>
> The best indicator that I am aware of is installed directly into one of
> the
> brushes-
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=446&product_id=1497
> http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=446&product_id=1491
>
>
> ..
>
>
>
>
> Roy LeMeur
> Olympia WA
>
> My Electric Vehicle Pages:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
>
> Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
> http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
>
> EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
> http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 12/27/05, David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 27 Dec 2005 at 10:50, jerryd wrote:
>
> > one thing I won't be targeting is economy as it is a
> > loser conjuring up cheap images and lowering the sellability
> > of the Freedom EV.
>
> Hmm, you seem to have changed your tune, Jerry. Earlier, you were
> interested in producing an "EV for the masses" (my phrase). Back in April
> you said :
I look forward to his response, however, I interpreted his comments
far differently than you did. It sounded like he was simply referring
to the negative impressions caused by "budget" marketing messages.
"We're the cheapest thing on 4 wheels"
is not going to engender trust in your consumers. A brand name like
"Best Value", at least to me and many others, almost automatically
means low quality.
I took his comments to mean just that it wouldn't be the biggest part
of his marketing message--which I would agree is a good idea.
By the way,
"I can build 2 seat EV's that go about 100mile range and 75mph, though
not at the same time, "
I find statements like these very frustrating. What you're telling me
is that both of those numbers are meaningless. I need to know both
numbers together or it doesn't mean much. And to me (though I know not
everyone looks at it this way), I only care about the range when I
might be going 75 mph. In other words, we need some kind of "worse
case range" or "full highway use range" so we can have a good idea of
what the range means when used as a typical car might be used.
-joel shellman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been trying to assess different vehicles to convert into a fun car with
surprising performance. Recently, the idea of a Metro, Festiva, Aspire, etc.
type vehicle loaded with excessive power has caught my fancy. Range is not too
big of a concern - 25 miles without having to baby it would be fine. I could
see upto 300V of AGMs using a Z1k and Warp 9. Obviously, this setup may be
overkill. I would tame it down (but not much) to fit the application into the
small donor. Loads of aftermarket detailling and mods are options to get one of
these ordinary rollerskates turning heads.
My question to the list:
Which car would be a good platform for this outcome? I know nothing about the
frame or suspension of these vehicles. Would I need to beef them up to hold
the battery weight and handle the power?
--
Chris Buresh
St. Paul, MN
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I also suspect both but think that the tires play a bigger role.
Lately I believe I have noticed a slight increase in range (even
though the temperature has stayed the same or gotten colder). I
believe this is due to tires and studs getting broken in and losing
the original roughness. Peugeot has NiCd batteries which are not so
sensitive to the cold as lead batteries.
Seppo
Victor Tikhonov kirjoitti 22.12.2005 kello 0.58:
I suspect both. At -5'C rolling resistance of studded tires
on a packed snow or even asphalt is probably higher than for smooth
tires. How much higher can be easily measured (spring scale pull
test).
But from +5'C to -5'C is quite a change for the batteries too, so they
have less capacity (aside more per mile consumption due to the
tires). Again, this can be measured as well.
Victor
Seppo wrote:
Hello Evan
I had quite a large efffect on range when I changed from old worn-
out summer tires to brand-new spiked winter tires. I had expected
some change but was surprised to see that I got 20% reduction in
range. Simultaneously the temperature dropped 10 degrees C from
+5 to -5 so I don't know if the main reason was the temperature
change or the new tires.
Seppo
Evan Tuer kirjoitti 20.12.2005 kello 15.46:
Hi Seppo,
My range suffers a little bit with temperatures <0 degrees C.
But my
battery is quite old and high milage so maybe that's why.
Regards
Evan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim, The best place to monitor motor temperature is at the brushes as the
commutator is the first thing to heat up and it does so very quickly. You
can watch the meter go up as you increase motor amps. We at EV Parts,
www.evparts.com sell a brush temperature gauge that uses a fast acting "J"
type thermocouple. It has a read line at 450 degrees F. You do not want to
exceed this temperature. These are a track proven product.
Roderick Wilde
President, EV Parts, Inc.
www.evparts.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, December 27, 2005 11:01 AM
Subject: advanced dc motor
I would like to put a temperature sensor on the motor,
would like to know location and what is normal and extreme reading .
9 inch fb1-4001-a
s/n 319
class h
2-2-93
120 dc
running on 144 volt dc with a auburn water cooled
mpwc600-144 controler
thanks
marshfield MO
jim
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Shellman wrote:
And to me (though I know not
everyone looks at it this way), I only care about the range when I
might be going 75 mph. In other words, we need some kind of "worse
case range" or "full highway use range" so we can have a good idea of
what the range means when used as a typical car might be used.
-joel shellman
Typical? That can't be right... if the typical car was "full highway
use", they would all be parking lots. Since comments like these pop up
regularly, I think our little EV community is slanted towards those who
are not suburban (am I right?). Please realize that the vast majority of
people in this country live in a large city, close to work and services.
I haven't been on a highway (besides the in-laws for thanksgiving) for
over three years now. And I live outside of town.
My point is that saying "this car gets a 30 mile range" will only hurt
sales, and is meaningless when only a small fraction of the users will
ever see range that low. Typical car use is 20-45MPH with occasional
hills (over 2% grade), since that is the majority of the roads in most
major cities. If the typical person will see 50 miles on a full charge
during their typical days, for gosh sakes say that. ICE mileage can be
less then half of the stated mileage depending on "driving patterns" and
"road conditions". I think people are generally used to that concept.
I don't like the "max range" thing though. I think "average range" would
be better. Take the typical minimum range (65MPH, light grade), and the
typical maximum range (35MPH, level ground), and use the number in the
middle.
And please stop speeding, at the minimum it wears out your car faster. ;)
--
Stefan T. Peters
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 27 Dec 2005 at 15:09, Joel Shellman wrote:
> It sounded like he was simply referring
> to the negative impressions caused by "budget" marketing messages.
I didn't read it that way, but you might be right. In any case I'm not
criticizing - product marketing is a complex issue and I'm hardly an expert.
I'm just wondering what's up with Jerry's project because the rhetoric I
read here seems to have changed, and it appears to be a fairly significant
change in targeting.
I'm not a member of Jerry's internet group. I heard you have to pay, and
I'm not ready to do that. So I might have missed something.
I don't agree 100% with Jerry's approach (again as it's documented on this
list), but who ever does? Regardless, I applaud his effort to get a real
BEV on the market.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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