EV Digest 5041
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Range in Rudman, was Re: Units of EV merit
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Ampabout ... Dude, that's so Old School!
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site - voting
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Electron flows and heating
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Need to ask a general question about torque converters
by "Paul Compton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) About BRUSA chargers
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Valence (was: 24ah 240vdc Li Ion pack)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Need to ask a general question about torque converters
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Tax Credit for Conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site - voting
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) DragTimes Web Site, interesting 'other' link
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re:S10 reverse
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Old School Bruce!
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Need to ask a general question about torque converters
by "Mark Ward" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) DragTimes Video Page
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more power"
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) RE: Ampabout ... Dude, that's so Old School!
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Reverse for Direct Drive (was S10 reverse)
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) any online Video Clips of Clooney's Tango on TV
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: 2006 Elections
by "EAA-contact" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: If I build it, will it perform? Or, do I need to go with "more power"
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
No need to reinvent this.
Quite some years ago (I'm thinking it was in the 1980s) the SAE developed
rigorous tests for measuring EV range (J227a). Like fuel efficiency
standards, they specified conditions, speeds to be driven, number of stops
per unit of distance, etc. There were 3 or 4 different "cycles"
representing different types of driving.
These standard testing methods don't seem to have been much used. EV
manufacturers and converters have almost always stated their vehicles' range
under absurdly optimal conditions, leading to eternal owner annoyance and
disappontment. I hate to say it, but as with EPA MPG testing and home audio
gear power specifications, this isn't likely to change until the SAE range
standards have the force of law behind them.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On 30 Dec 2005 at 15:51, bruce parmenter wrote:
> Would it be nice to have a charger that you would set the pack
> voltage and it would adjust the finishing voltage for you depending
> on the pack temperature?
Sure. Most microprocessor controlled chargers do exactly that.
Brusa is one example. It has functions to provide temperature compensation
for the finish voltage, and you can set whatever compensation your battery
manufacturer specifies. The temperature sensor is external and is intended
to be mounted in the battery pack. I believe the current model supports as
many as three separate sensors.
I think the Delta-Q chargers also have temperature compensation. Even
Zivans do. These have single sensors.
The PFC chargers are not micro controlled, and I don't think they have any
kind of temperature compensation. I might be wrong about that.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Leafed through the Dragtimes site but could not find it.
Do you have the link page?
BTW: Matt can post his car also on http://www.drag240sx.com/
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Friday, December 30, 2005 8:01 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site - voting
Hello to All,
Rod Hower wrote:
>You can vote once per day, so I voted again today and
>also
>voted at my friends computer.
>Rod
>
>
>
Thanks everyone for voting, last count it was up to 123 votes, and an
electric car is # 57 of the top 100 favorite time slips! Let's do it
again tomorrow and build it up higher. Tell your friends with computers,
too.
I think we've gotten the attention of those who run the site, as I got a
nice email from Brooks, telling me he had put up links to a Zombie
video and the Plasma Boy racing site...cool!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hopefully this doesn't repeat an earlier point. My TIG welder manual
says if you reverse the polarity, the torch electrode will get much
hotter. Apparently reversing the current flow has a definite effect
on heating.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>You would waste A LOT of energy by using a torque converter.
It can't be a huge amount of energy difference or automatics would get a
hugely different fuel milage than they're stick couterparts.
You're ignoring some important facts. You have to do a SYSTEM efficiency
calculation and the efficiencies multiply. Combustion engines have a narrow
peak efficiency operating range. Even quite an inefficient transmission
capable of keeping the engine in or close to that operating range may well
improve AVERAGE efficiency. Electric motors have a wide efficiency range and
combining them with a torque converter will almost certainly result in a
loss in both peak and average efficiency.
This seams to be less difference in modern cars than older ones, did they
get better at building torque converters?
No, not really, they just put a clutch inside so the you can lock them up
when you don't need the torque multiplication. Some CVT transmissions can do
the same. A CVT is a friction drive device and as such won't beat around 70%
peak efficiency but it would be easy to be fooled by one claming 90% (in
lockup) which it won't achieve until nearly at top speed.
Given how badly most people drive, automatics often get better mileage than
the manual version in the real world.
Paul Compton
www.sciroccoev.co.uk
www.morini-mania.co.uk
www.compton.vispa.com/the_named
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Roden wrote:
On 30 Dec 2005 at 15:51, bruce parmenter wrote:
Would it be nice to have a charger that you would set the pack
voltage and it would adjust the finishing voltage for you depending
on the pack temperature?
Sure. Most microprocessor controlled chargers do exactly that.
Brusa is one example. It has functions to provide temperature compensation
for the finish voltage, and you can set whatever compensation your battery
manufacturer specifies. The temperature sensor is external and is intended
to be mounted in the battery pack. I believe the current model supports as
many as three separate sensors.
Exactly right David, 3 sensors.
News from BRUSA about their chargers: pricing has changed and
for popular NLG511 and NLG513 has dropped about 25% - currently they are
less than $3k, so if some one is considering purchasing one, this is
good news. These will be main line of chargers and discounts are
available because of quantity manufacturing due to high demand.
Other models are higher price than it was as become custom built
units (unlike mass-produced ones).
Also, BRUSA has introduced new line of chargers - NLG50x lite.
The max power is 1.6kW and all other parameters and features are
identical to NLG51x line. Main target market - low capacity packs in
plug-in hybrid vehicles. These will be sold for <$2k (at today's
exchange rate). Of course they can be used to charge pure EV packs,
esp. for bicycles/scooters if overnight charging isn't a problem and
versatility is critical (LiIon/LiPo batteries for instance).
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yes 2000 cycles is possible with li-ion, there is no secret just well
informed/knowledgeable people who are aware of lithium technologie rules,
good point for Valence.
For their Overpriced li-ion Saft announce 2000 cycles too and when i asked
them if it was because they were limiting the CV at 4,1V and the low limit
voltage behond 3V i had no answer...
the way to go :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 7:27 AM
Subject: RE: Valence (was: 24ah 240vdc Li Ion pack)
> Thanks Osmo - very interesting "guaranteed for 2000 cycles" !!
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Osmo Sarin
> Sent: December 30, 2005 3:07 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Valence (was: 24ah 240vdc Li Ion pack)
>
> > 4) Valence batteries are half the energy density and approx 30% more
> > in cost than Kokam batteries. Their literature suggests 2000
> > lifecycles, but no hard data has been found for EVs - more
> > investigation is required.
>
> Here is a little piece of information about Valence I got from a canadian
> company called Les Industries Alternativ Inc. I´m sure they don´t mind
> sharing it.
>
> Osmo Sarin
>
> -----
> "We are using Valence li-ion batteries since july 2004. We do think those
> are the safest on the market and the least injurious for the environment.
>
> We also did our own tests in the safety department : we had a car crash in
> march with one of our converted vehicle. We hit a loader in a snow storm
and
> the result was great. The car was heavily damaged but the batteries did
> great. A few cells were damaged but there was no leak, fire, smoke or
> anything else. We just had to replace the damaged cells to make them work
> like before our little incident...and find a new vehicle to transfer the
> batteries in !!!!! The batteries reacted exactly like Valence
expectations.
>
> About the price issue, Valence batteries are expensive but we are truly
> satisfied with the product we have in hands. Their properties make them
> worth the extra money.
>
> ...the batteries we are using are guaranteed for 2000 cycles and yes they
> seems to be really realistic till now."
>
>
>
>
>
> 28.12.2005 kello 23:55, Don Cameron kirjoitti:
>
> Yes there are "bad" manufacturers of cheap Li-Ion cells. There are some
> > "good" ones too. I suggest that before implying that all LiIon
> > batteries are unsafe, shop around and investigate. Get to know the
> > safety standards and their limitations.
> >
> >
> > A few points to make:
> >
> > 1) Kokam batteries are lithium polymer.
> >
> > 2) Kokam batteries have passed six standardized tests for fire and
> > explosion under the standards SBA G1101 and UL1642. This includes
> > overcharge, heating, crush, impact, forced discharge.
> >
> > 3) Cliff at proev.com is currently evaluating Kokam batteries in
> > autocross racing applications. Although his information will largely
> > be anecdotal, it will be useful to see the battery lifetime under
> > these conditions.
> >
> > 3) You may be referring to Valance U-Charge using their "Saphion"
> > technology. These batteries, as well, passed the UL1642 tests.
> >
> > 4) Valence batteries are half the energy density and approx 30% more
> > in cost than Kokam batteries. Their literature suggests 2000
> > lifecycles, but no hard data has been found for EVs - more
> > investigation is required.
> >
> > 5) Valance states that UL1642 is a poor standard as small, liquid
> > lithium batteries can pass the test. Others suggest that this is a
> > difficult test for large cells to pass. Not sure if this is FUD from
> > Valence or factual information - more investigation is required.
> >
> > You may want to investigate the archives. There was a great thread
> > between Jukka and David Lalonde about testing of Thundersky batteries
> > and these standards.
> >
> >
> > YMMV - investigate before committing.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Victoria, BC, Canada
> >
> > See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> > www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > On Behalf Of Danny Miller
> > Sent: December 28, 2005 11:14 AM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: Re: 24ah 240vdc Li Ion pack.
> >
> > Now keep in mind there's another issue than cost that keeps Li-Ion
> > down as a high capacity storage system.
> > Li-Ion is extremely flammable. That can occur through improper or
> > just nonideal charging procedures, mechanical damage
> > (collision/vibration), or mfg defects in cheapo cells. The problem
> > gets more severe as the battery size is scaled up. I don't think many
> > smaller cells are better either, the failure potential of any one cell
> > is of course multiplied by the number of cells. Not that this
> > necessarily means all the cells are on fire at that point but there is
> > a cell on fire in the middle of the pack. The bad part here is that
> > there's no good way to properly charge this many cells and a hokey
> > charge procedure is almost doomed to failure.
> >
> > There have been incidents of cell phone batteries bursting into flames
> > in normal duty, often for no apparent reason. The mfgs like to say
> > it's all due to cheaper aftermarket battery replacements.
> >
> > Of course there are big cells designed for EVs. There's that one mfg
> > mentioned here several months ago that modified the technology to be
> > nonflammable. That would make sense. Of course the problems of cost
> > or even availability are pretty bad.
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > Don Cameron wrote:
> >
> >> Lawrence, you had me going a bit crazy. The subject of the email
> >> said "240V" $4600 for 24Ah 240V would change the face of EVs
overnight!
> >>
> >> Don
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jeff, Seth and All,
I like this idea as it allows a higher
top end, more lower end power about 10 mph, probably less
below that, with it's torque multiplication. This will great
reduce the amps needed for starting so one could use a lower
amp controller.
By getting one with a lock up you avoid
most of the eff problems. Generally it's is about 90-95% eff
without lock up I think or it would overheat.
You would want to get one that locks up
as low rpm as possible so to stay in your motor high torque
band and/or have a high pack voltage that can force current
into it.
I believe the pumps were for powering
the servos and not needed for the torqoe converter.
And there are industrial ones though
pricy that come self contained.
Seth,
Isn't the Saturn automatic actually a
manual trans driven be servo's to increase eff using a
clutch? If so it's going to be more eff than other
automatics if you can arrange the shifting points to manual.
As it's all the same unit as the manual because they wanted
to save part numbers, you could get a manual shift kit for
it. As there are many built and long runs they are very
easy, cheap to get used parts, new for.
It should hold batteries better and
doesn't rust the body skin so it should be good looking for
yrs, important when it comes time to sell.
You can buy whole dead cars for $200 so
that's the way to get parts you might need, stripping it of
any you might need. And it's aero should be better than any
of the other except some models of the Civic.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Need to ask a general question about torque
converters
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:37:10 -0800
> If I was to place a torque converter in place of the
>clutch and use a standard transmission, how would that
>work/notwork?
>
>Could I set the controller for an idle rpm to run
>accessories and then just step on gas to accelerate from a
>stop. In this way leaveing it in say 3rd gear since the
>torque converter would give me some multiplication off line
>and then perhaps lock in the TCC if above x mph and < y
>throttle?
>
>Could I shift or would I get a bad whirrrr-bang?
Has anyone seen a good writeup on using an automatic
without the torque converter?
I heard a whisper that my father's Prius arrives
in the end of January....and then I hope to get
the 1996 Saturn...I would love to be "ready to run with
it"...
An Internet parts search found manual
transmissions from $150 to $450 for this car...?!
It might be worth $150 to save the effort,
it might not be worth $450.
(I probably do have a real mechanic on my team :-)
(Or just trade it for a {civic|metro|festiva} with a stick?
:-)
(Thanks for your patience :-)
Seth
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was just reviewing the federal tax form and found out that they are
reducing the tax credit for conversions. Conversions placed into service in
2005
(ending today) get a 10% credit. Starting tomorrow, the credit is only 2.5%.
That sure doesn't make me very happy. Also, I see that credits offered by my
home state (Georgia) are not what they used to be. They are offering a 10%
credit as well, but it used to be $2500 a few years ago. I seem to remember
people buying NEVs (basically golf carts) and getting them free after the tax
credit.
Does anyone know the plans for these credits after 2006? It seems to me
(from the federal form at least) that it may just go away after 2006. I think
we
should all write congress and try to get this thing reversed and back to 10%.
It may not seem like much, but on $6000 worth of conversion parts, I could
have got a credit of $1200. If I can finish within a year, I can only get
$750.
Thats a pretty big deal to me. I was counting on the $1200.
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
John,
Leafed through the Dragtimes site but could not find it.
Do you have the link page?
You can go directly to the top 100 page here, then click on the one for
White Zombie, this morning now with 152 votes and at # 49 in the top 100:
http://www.dragtimes.com/top50.php
Keep those votes coming! Those who voted yesterday can vote again today.
Let's send the performance gas car crowd a message that EVs can be fun
and exciting.
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
If you peruse White Zombie's stat page, the page where folks have been
going to vote, click on the section 'track' for a link to Portland
International Raceway, and it takes you to that page of vehicles with
listed time slips from the track. There's a quick Toyota MR2 at the top
with a 12.029, followed by White Zombie with its 12.151, so it makes an
electric car look pretty good being so high up on this list. More
importantly, right 'under' White Zombie (read that 'not as quick') is a
2004 Corvette Z06 at 12.734....really puts an exclamation mark on electrics!
This is fun. Wait till Rod Wilde's 11 second RX7 shows up on the site today!
See Ya....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My conversion is coming along again at least 1-2k a large ge type motor
direct to a 9+in. ford air locker rear(no tranny).Reverse a must can go through
a
standard reversing contactor arangement or, Can I use a small starter motor
through a ring gear setup on my ge drive motor?This setup could be made very
easy,only adding 9lbs. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Bruce, loved your latest post! I feel like I was riding in the car with
you. For those who haven't met this crazed guy, I've posted an
'interesting' picture of him at the Plasma Boy web page. Go to:
http://www.plasmaboyracing.com
Then click the 'Photos' tab, then click on the highlight 'From Others'.
You can click on Bruce's picture for an enlarged view. I think I
captured the essence of Bruce!
bruce parmenter wrote:
When I stopped and parked at a store, while walking the parking lot
toward the entrance, a couple of teenage boys were back behind me
also heading in. Although my EV no longer has the “ELECTRIC” decals
in multiple places, one of the teenagers must have seen the HOW
sticker.
He yelled at “Hey is that Electric?” I nodded yes with smile and
turned back to head in. He then yelled, “Dude, that is so Old
School!” and began talking trash about how there are cars that when
you smell the exhaust it smells like French fries.
I am pretty sure that he no only was dissing my EV for being
old-fashioned, but I was also sure that he was not an authority on
any AFVs.
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually I am using a GM Hyundai 4 speed automatic "performance"
transmission in my Saab conversion. I have the option through the
transmission computer or directly by 4 solenoids to control the shift points
and lockup of the torque converter. Today's autos are a lot more efficient
than those of yesteryear when designers were not concerned about fuel
efficiency.
Practically the spring plate is easier to couple to the motor than a normal
flywheel. Since I control the shift points, the motor RPM is under my
control, not a preset level determined by pressures inside the valve body.
Also by using the automatic, my other power equipment will function
normally. I plan to keep the TC spinning at about 300 RPM, which will drive
my power steering, etc. The complexity of electronic controlled
transmissions I believe scares some people off from using them. To me it is
just another challenge. I have already overcome a lot of them in my
conversion.
Just my two cents worth.
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 4:52 AM
Subject: Re: Need to ask a general question about torque converters
Hi Jeff, Seth and All,
I like this idea as it allows a higher
top end, more lower end power about 10 mph, probably less
below that, with it's torque multiplication. This will great
reduce the amps needed for starting so one could use a lower
amp controller.
By getting one with a lock up you avoid
most of the eff problems. Generally it's is about 90-95% eff
without lock up I think or it would overheat.
You would want to get one that locks up
as low rpm as possible so to stay in your motor high torque
band and/or have a high pack voltage that can force current
into it.
I believe the pumps were for powering
the servos and not needed for the torqoe converter.
And there are industrial ones though
pricy that come self contained.
Seth,
Isn't the Saturn automatic actually a
manual trans driven be servo's to increase eff using a
clutch? If so it's going to be more eff than other
automatics if you can arrange the shifting points to manual.
As it's all the same unit as the manual because they wanted
to save part numbers, you could get a manual shift kit for
it. As there are many built and long runs they are very
easy, cheap to get used parts, new for.
It should hold batteries better and
doesn't rust the body skin so it should be good looking for
yrs, important when it comes time to sell.
You can buy whole dead cars for $200 so
that's the way to get parts you might need, stripping it of
any you might need. And it's aero should be better than any
of the other except some models of the Civic.
HTH's,
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
Subject: Need to ask a general question about torque
converters
Date: Thu, 29 Dec 2005 18:37:10 -0800
If I was to place a torque converter in place of the
clutch and use a standard transmission, how would that
work/notwork?
Could I set the controller for an idle rpm to run
accessories and then just step on gas to accelerate from a
stop. In this way leaveing it in say 3rd gear since the
torque converter would give me some multiplication off line
and then perhaps lock in the TCC if above x mph and < y
throttle?
Could I shift or would I get a bad whirrrr-bang?
Has anyone seen a good writeup on using an automatic
without the torque converter?
I heard a whisper that my father's Prius arrives
in the end of January....and then I hope to get
the 1996 Saturn...I would love to be "ready to run with
it"...
An Internet parts search found manual
transmissions from $150 to $450 for this car...?!
It might be worth $150 to save the effort,
it might not be worth $450.
(I probably do have a real mechanic on my team :-)
(Or just trade it for a {civic|metro|festiva} with a stick?
:-)
(Thanks for your patience :-)
Seth
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
It just keeps getting better! If you go to the DragTimes.com home page,
then at the top, click on the 'videos' link, it takes you to a page with
pictures of featured drag car videos. White Zombie's photo and a link
for a wheel lifting video, is currently right at the top. Thanks to
Brook (I assume he's the site owner) for doing this, looks like he's
pretty interested in EVs!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm considering my options on the "small car" commuter EV that I was planning
on building. Having owned 3 "poor performing" EVs in the past 6 years, I
don't want to repeat that situation. If if won't perform, I won't build it.
My
goals have been and still are:
1. Good acceleration - 0 - 45 MPH in ~15 sec or less (faster is better!)
2. Speed - Capable of 55 MPH, even though I don't plan to take it over 45 MPH
3. Hill climbing - We have them, and it needs to be able to make it up a
"decent grade" at 35 MPH
4. Range - 15 miles round trip - same route every day 25 - 45 MPH city
traffic. Stop signs about every 0.75 - 1 miles. Actual mileage = 6.2 miles
each
way, but 15 miles gives me a buffer for stopping at a store on the way home.
5. Late model - parts still available for at least the next 5 years.
I already have the following parts:
1. Series wound 7.2" x 15" fork lift motor
2. GE EV-1B controller - 84 V with 1A bypass (I have no idea what the
continuous rating on the controller is, but I am guessing about 150 A). I
wanted to
build my own 144 V / 600 A controller, but I have been talked out of it.
3. Main contactor
4. Other misc parts left over from my other cars
Two options:
First option - "The less expensive car"
1992 Ford Festiva - I actually like the way is looks and low curb weight
manual trans - retain clutch - use 2nd and 3rd gear only
EV-1B controller (150 A cruise, 84 V / 500 A full power for acceleration /
steep hill climbing)
- I realize this controller will reduce battery life because of the 300
Hz SCR switching speed, but maybe I can help it with some caps.
84 V - 14 x 6 V golf cart batteries (Sams Club)
- Dispersed around the car
- 4 in far rear - sunk low through cut out in floor
- 4 center of car behind front seats (remove rear seats) - floor level
- 2 where front pass seat was - floor level
- 4 in front where radiator was - sunk low
- Not the best batteries, but usable. Maybe I'd spring for some T-125's.
Charger
- www.northerntool.com, 72 V / 10 A charger + 1 12 V deep cycle 10 A
charger
Modifications
- I didn't plan to modify the suspension or brakes with only 800 lb of
batteries dispersed around the car, sunk low front and rear, I think it will be
OK with stock suspension and brakes.
Cost (parts only):
$500 - donor car - 1992 Festiva - 130,000 miles - running condition
$200 - batt boxes - home made
$140 - controller + two main disconnect contactors one on the +ve and one
on the -ve (already have them)
$50 - pot box (used)
$50 - main fuse and contactor drivers + other spare parts (salvage lift
parts)
$160 - motor (I already have it)
$265 - motor coupler and mounting plate - my design - material only -
labor not included
$200 - Charger #1
$40 - Charger #2
$125 - 2/0 welding cable + terminals (I'm not sure about this cost)
$770 - batteries - ~$55 / ea including tax
$65 - aux battery
$2565 Total
-$320 Tax credit (12.5% - 10% State of GA + 2.5% Federal for 2006)
$2245 Net cost
Notes:
- NO DC - DC convertor
- Little to no instrumentation (although I can get current reading off the
EV-1, and voltage off the pack)
With all that said and detailed out, I have several concerns.
1. I don't want to build an "electric jalopy". I've owned 3, and have no
need for another.
2. Is the motor at 7.2" undersized to much?
3. Only 84 V ? Can I meet my acceleration requirements with the EV-1B and 1A
bypass?
4. The charger - really may be too slow to recharge 12 miles of range over a
12 hour period. It may not work for that reason.
5. Handling if I don't modify the suspension / brakes.
Second Option:
- 1993 Ford Festiva (last year made), Chevy Metro 2 door (last year
made), Honda Civic hatchback (early 90's)
- 9" Warp or ADC
- 14 x 12 V = 168 V Optima batteries
- 1k Zilla controller
- PFC 20 Charger
- DC - DC convertor
- power steering off aux motor
- bower brakes off vac booster
- retain two front seats - remove others
- sink batts low for low CG center, front and rear - that's a lot of
cutting through the floor.
- e-meter with instrumentation
- some type of suspension and handling upgrades dependent on donor car
Projections:
Acceleration - FAST! - And I would look forward to that!
Top Speed - 80+ MPH
Range - >30 miles
Cost - Parts ~$7500 (Please correct me if I am way off)
The question becomes, what direction should I take? One option is to build
with the 9" motor, but still use the 84 V controller with bypass and 14 x 6 V
batteries and inexpensive charger. Later upgrade if "used parts" become
available.
But, if the first option can give me decent acceleration, it may work just
fine for meeting my original needs. So, my question is: Does anyone have any
experience using the EV-1 with bypass at 84 V with a 7" x 15", 36 V lift motor?
It may work just fine. But, if I build it, I'd sure like to be sure it will
work.
Suggestions?
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich and Joe have an experimental reg that does temperature compensation via
the regbus.
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David Roden
Sent: December 30, 2005 10:40 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Ampabout ... Dude, that's so Old School!
On 30 Dec 2005 at 15:51, bruce parmenter wrote:
> Would it be nice to have a charger that you would set the pack voltage
> and it would adjust the finishing voltage for you depending on the
> pack temperature?
Sure. Most microprocessor controlled chargers do exactly that.
Brusa is one example. It has functions to provide temperature compensation
for the finish voltage, and you can set whatever compensation your battery
manufacturer specifies. The temperature sensor is external and is intended
to be mounted in the battery pack. I believe the current model supports as
many as three separate sensors.
I think the Delta-Q chargers also have temperature compensation. Even
Zivans do. These have single sensors.
The PFC chargers are not micro controlled, and I don't think they have any
kind of temperature compensation. I might be wrong about that.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to All,
Interesting post, Dennis. The new rules NEDRA has been formulating for
the SC class and another yet-to-be-announced class, will require a
working reverse, so the Zombie's going to have to have it soon. In
addition, it's a pain not having reverse. Currently, if I park the
Zombie nose first into my backyard EV shop, I have to use the Heavy
Metal Garden Tractor and a tow rope to pull it up and out my EV shop's
long, sloping driveway to get it out to the street. It's also a bit
embarrassing to have the track guys push your car backwards if you
over-shoot the staging lights :-( Finally, keeping the everyday
streetability theme going makes having reverse a no-brainer. It's no
easy task though, when your electric motor draws 2000 amps, it's all
interconnected with beefy 4/0 cables, and losses through contactor tips
are to be kept at a minimum.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My conversion is coming along again at least 1-2k a large ge type motor
direct to a 9+in. ford air locker rear(no tranny).Reverse a must can go through a
standard reversing contactor arangement
I am working on several ideas for adding a simple reverse to White
Zombie, but using a reversing contactor set is not one of the options
for me. The reversing sets rely on spring pressure to keep the normal
motor circuit connected, and use the magnetic pull of the contactor
coils to engage reverse. Passing 2000 amps through spring pressure
contact pads is nonsense, wasteful of power, and is a prescription for
welded contacts. When I'm scratching and clawing for precious 10ths of a
second, adding a reversing contactor set that 'will' detract from the
2000 amp motor loop circuit, is out of the question.
...or, Can I use a small starter motor
through a ring gear setup on my ge drive motor? This setup could be made very
easy,only adding 9lbs. Dennis Berube
I'm thinking of a belt drive idea that would use a pulley mounted to the
Ford nine inch's input flange and a light weight 12V DC motor with a
de-clutching drive pulley at the motor shaft. This setup would protect
the reversing motor from being force-revved at super high rpm, but the
pulley of the motor clutch would still be spinning at ~21,000 rpm due to
the ~ 3:1 ratio needed!
A gear-on-gear thing, where the reversing motor is pulled into a larger
gear mounted to the Ford nine inch's input flange, via a strong solenoid
or by simply using a starter motor, is another idea I have, very similar
to your ring gear on the electric motor idea. This last version has the
advantage in that when not in reverse, the 12V drive motor and its drive
gear, are not forced to spin at all.
Dennis, your 'other idea' you didn't mention, the super cool idea of
using the flyback diodes of the Zilla controller and a 12V battery to
turn the drive motors into a shunt wound that reverses direction can
work, but man, 700-800 amps from the little 12V, 16 ahr Hawker Genesis
would drain it pretty fast, and the extra contactor and multiple BIG
cables isn't something I want to add to the now sano looking under-hood
area. I could, add an extra 24 lb. Hawker Aerobattery and dedicate it
to this use, and 700-800 amps from it would be no big deal, but along
with the big cabling, large contactor, and battery bracketry, this would
add 40 lbs. to my EV....not good for racing.
Hey list folks, any creative but light weight reverse ideas for a high
powered direct drive drag - street car?
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
I just got a note from the editor of EV UK www.evuk.co.uk/ and she would
like to know if anone knows if there is any online footage of George
Clooney's Tango when it was shown on the December 8th Tonight Show with Jay
Leno. Please contact me off list.
Roderick Wilde
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.371 / Virus Database: 267.14.9/217 - Release Date: 12/30/2005
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EAA members, Due to these problems with mail delivery, you *should not* worry
about mailing your ballots after Ded 31st. Best to respond as soon as possible
and your vote will be counted. Besides the snail mail taking too long to get
regular 1st class postage out, there have been other challenges with getting
the election material out to members on time. Also, some mailings might have
gotten mixed up. Mine arrived early, but without a response postcard. If you
are a member and haven't received a ballot, or have other questions, please
contact me directly for assistance. -Ed ThorpeEAA appointee and past board
member"Spare the air everyday, drive electric."Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Fri
12/30, Doc Kennedy < [EMAIL PROTECTED] > wrote:From: Doc Kennedy [mailto:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Fri, 30 Dec 2005 16:39:55 -0400Subject:
2006 ElectionsFellow EAA members,Am I the only one to get my ballot for the new
Board of Directors on Fridaythe
30th of Dec.and have to have it postmarked , not later than Dec.31 a saturday
and theP.O.s in mycounty are closed! Gee, wouldn't an earlier mailing or a
later deadlinehave been moreappropriate?Sorry for the rant, Doc Kennedy SW
Virginia
_______________________________________________
Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com
The most personalized portal on the Web!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In either case, ask yourself if the batteries are 1/3
of the weight. Personally, I wouldn't go with
anything under 128V system, but that's just me. I'd
never think of going without a DCDC converter. Once
you've had a fuse blow and been down to just the aux.
battery, you'll know why. Please check out my
website, and look at the costs and info I have posted.
Sincerely,
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I'm considering my options on the "small car"
> commuter EV that I was planning
> on building. Having owned 3 "poor performing" EVs
> in the past 6 years, I
> don't want to repeat that situation. If if won't
> perform, I won't build it. My
> goals have been and still are:
>
> 1. Good acceleration - 0 - 45 MPH in ~15 sec or less
> (faster is better!)
> 2. Speed - Capable of 55 MPH, even though I don't
> plan to take it over 45 MPH
> 3. Hill climbing - We have them, and it needs to be
> able to make it up a
> "decent grade" at 35 MPH
> 4. Range - 15 miles round trip - same route every
> day 25 - 45 MPH city
> traffic. Stop signs about every 0.75 - 1 miles.
> Actual mileage = 6.2 miles each
> way, but 15 miles gives me a buffer for stopping at
> a store on the way home.
> 5. Late model - parts still available for at least
> the next 5 years.
>
> I already have the following parts:
> 1. Series wound 7.2" x 15" fork lift motor
> 2. GE EV-1B controller - 84 V with 1A bypass (I have
> no idea what the
> continuous rating on the controller is, but I am
> guessing about 150 A). I wanted to
> build my own 144 V / 600 A controller, but I have
> been talked out of it.
> 3. Main contactor
> 4. Other misc parts left over from my other cars
>
>
> Two options:
>
> First option - "The less expensive car"
> 1992 Ford Festiva - I actually like the way is looks
> and low curb weight
> manual trans - retain clutch - use 2nd and 3rd gear
> only
> EV-1B controller (150 A cruise, 84 V / 500 A full
> power for acceleration /
> steep hill climbing)
> - I realize this controller will reduce battery
> life because of the 300
> Hz SCR switching speed, but maybe I can help it with
> some caps.
> 84 V - 14 x 6 V golf cart batteries (Sams Club)
> - Dispersed around the car
> - 4 in far rear - sunk low through cut out
> in floor
> - 4 center of car behind front seats (remove
> rear seats) - floor level
> - 2 where front pass seat was - floor level
> - 4 in front where radiator was - sunk low
> - Not the best batteries, but usable. Maybe I'd
> spring for some T-125's.
>
> Charger
> - www.northerntool.com, 72 V / 10 A charger + 1
> 12 V deep cycle 10 A
> charger
> Modifications
> - I didn't plan to modify the suspension or
> brakes with only 800 lb of
> batteries dispersed around the car, sunk low front
> and rear, I think it will be
> OK with stock suspension and brakes.
> Cost (parts only):
> $500 - donor car - 1992 Festiva - 130,000 miles
> - running condition
> $200 - batt boxes - home made
> $140 - controller + two main disconnect
> contactors one on the +ve and one
> on the -ve (already have them)
> $50 - pot box (used)
> $50 - main fuse and contactor drivers + other
> spare parts (salvage lift
> parts)
> $160 - motor (I already have it)
> $265 - motor coupler and mounting plate - my
> design - material only -
> labor not included
> $200 - Charger #1
> $40 - Charger #2
> $125 - 2/0 welding cable + terminals (I'm not
> sure about this cost)
> $770 - batteries - ~$55 / ea including tax
> $65 - aux battery
>
> $2565 Total
> -$320 Tax credit (12.5% - 10% State of GA + 2.5%
> Federal for 2006)
> $2245 Net cost
>
> Notes:
> - NO DC - DC convertor
> - Little to no instrumentation (although I can get
> current reading off the
> EV-1, and voltage off the pack)
>
>
> With all that said and detailed out, I have several
> concerns.
> 1. I don't want to build an "electric jalopy". I've
> owned 3, and have no
> need for another.
> 2. Is the motor at 7.2" undersized to much?
> 3. Only 84 V ? Can I meet my acceleration
> requirements with the EV-1B and 1A
> bypass?
> 4. The charger - really may be too slow to recharge
> 12 miles of range over a
> 12 hour period. It may not work for that reason.
> 5. Handling if I don't modify the suspension /
> brakes.
>
>
> Second Option:
> - 1993 Ford Festiva (last year made), Chevy
> Metro 2 door (last year
> made), Honda Civic hatchback (early 90's)
> - 9" Warp or ADC
> - 14 x 12 V = 168 V Optima batteries
> - 1k Zilla controller
> - PFC 20 Charger
> - DC - DC convertor
> - power steering off aux motor
> - bower brakes off vac booster
> - retain two front seats - remove others
> - sink batts low for low CG center, front and
> rear - that's a lot of
> cutting through the floor.
> - e-meter with instrumentation
> - some type of suspension and handling upgrades
> dependent on donor car
>
> Projections:
> Acceleration - FAST! - And I would look forward
> to that!
> Top Speed - 80+ MPH
> Range - >30 miles
> Cost - Parts ~$7500 (Please correct me if I am
> way off)
>
> The question becomes, what direction should I take?
> One option is to build
> with the 9" motor, but still use the 84 V controller
> with bypass and 14 x 6 V
> batteries and inexpensive charger. Later upgrade if
> "used parts" become
> available.
>
> But, if the first option can give me decent
> acceleration, it may work just
> fine for meeting my original needs. So, my question
> is: Does anyone have any
> experience using the EV-1 with bypass at 84 V with a
> 7" x 15", 36 V lift motor?
> It may work just fine. But, if I build it, I'd sure
> like to be sure it will
> work.
>
> Suggestions?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
