EV Digest 5045
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: If I build it, will it perform ... continued
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Still needing prof. battery advice. charging the lowest
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Reverseing a siamese motor
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Reverseing a siamese motor
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Still needing prof. battery advice. charging the lowest
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) MG Flywheel as bicycle sprocket.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Anti-parallel reverse, was: Reverse for Direct Drive
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Reverseing a siamese motor
by "Roy LeMeur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) The Big Guy, ready to ship
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: MG Flywheel as bicycle sprocket.
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
by "Richard Rau" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Maybe go back to the basics. I have an Electravan 750(Ford Courier). 120v
system. It will keep up with traffic. Has about a 40 mile range. You
would think the Omni would be about the same performance. YOu might want to
check your glider for easy rolling. You might have had bad tires or
dragging brakes. Every little bit helps. Synthetic oil in the tranny. Lrr
tires pumped up to max. Properly functinoning motor & controller. If any
of these are bum you will have a problem. Batteries could have been a
problem and you need to test each of them for capacity. Your Lester Charger
should have charged at 18amps for a while and then tapered off at end of
charge. I have no trouble going 70mph on level ground with the Electravan.
That's with Bias tires which were the orginal tires. I am planning on
putting on B381 tires soon. Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:14 AM
Subject: If I build it, will it perform ... continued
Sorry I didn't list what I am comparing it to. In response to ...
It's hard to say whether your project will outperform your earlier
ones
because you don't say what they were or how they performed.
My primary comparison (the one I have the most road time ~8 months of
regular
driving) with is the:
1980 Jet 007 (Plymouth Horizon TC3)
20 HP series wound Prestolite - stock motor (with 25,000 miles of
break in / wear and tear)
GE EV-1C controller - no 1A bypass. Pretty much limited to 275 A
max, ~150 A max continuous
120 V - 20 x 6 V - US2200 batteries - 1 year old, 2000 miles of
use
on them when I bought it
My top speed ever was 62 MPH on the flat
My real world range with stop and go and hills was about 25 miles
absolute maximum because the
performance dropped off to an unacceptable level beyond a
50% DOD.
My acceleration 0 - 45 MPH - did not keep up with traffic at all.
It was a serious
nuisance to the other drivers and very hard to make left
turns into traffic.
Charger Rusco 18-20 - It had a hard time charging the pack at more
than 10 A. Range was limited by the time to charge.
Basically I sold this car (about 18 months ago) for 4 reasons:
1. I could not accelerate well enough to keep up with traffic, and I could
not make left turns into traffic unless I drove around long enough to find
a
stop sign or red light. At the time, I was driving the car on a 6 - 12
mile trip
daily with many stops and a top speed of 40 MPH.
2. When I changed jobs, I needed a little more than 12 miles (closer to 15
max), and I needed to go 55 MPH for about a 1 mile stretch, and there was
a hill
involved. I tried to make the trip, but I couldn't hold the 55 MPH on the
way home due to the state of discharge of the pack, and the hill. Drivers
in
Metro Atlanta have no patience for slow moving Electric Vehicles and they
will
run you off the road!
3. The charger could not recharge the car fast enough in 12 hours to be
ready
for the next day. It was close, and may have been due to low line
voltage.
4. It was also hard to get parts because it was a 1980, and this was
becoming
more and more of an issue.
To resolve the issues with the 007, I figured, I needed:
1. Less weight. That means smaller car and less batteries or different
batteries with higher energy density.
2. Better controller - More power for acceleration. I think the 1A bypass
for acceleration could have done that. I am still working with my friend
who
bought the car from me to add that feature. That alone may make the car
road
worthy, or maybe it won't. But, maybe it needs a 1k PWM.
3. Better battery placement. The batteries in that thing were way too
high
up. The CG was very bad and the handling was unacceptable.
4. Better brakes - or less weight and better handling. That thing was a
nightmare to stop with the manual brakes. We have since added power
brakes and
properly adjusted them. It is now better, but still handles like a brick.
I
drove it about a month ago.
5. It needed to be built on a late model chassis.
My other primary comparison ... my first car.
1970 Saab Sonett III Fiberglass two seater - basically the size
and
weight of a shortened VW dune buggy
36 V - 6 x 6 - T105's - later used a set of US2200's for one day
that I borrowed for a road test
GE EV-1 out of a Yale lift (not sure which one) with 1A bypass
Pulled about 350 A without bypass and > 500 A with bypass
engaged - may have been 1000 A peak.
Yale lift motor matched to the controller
4 speed transmission
2nd gear ~15 MPH
3rd gear ~30 MPH
4th gear ~ 40 MPH, but absolutely no power, so only on a
flat
Realistically, I shouldn't have driven the car on a road
with a speed limit > 25 MPH. It was more of an NEV.
But, I did take it on 45 MPH roads (going only about 30
MPH), and people around me were MAD!!!
I think if this car had an 84 V controller, it may have been road
worthy, but parts were no where to be found.
I sold it in 1998, and it was driven around the neighborhood here
and there for a few years and ultimately
dismantled and scrapped. The person I sold it to still has the
parts sitting in his garage.
My other car, the 1979 ETV-1 was a great car in its day, but impossible to
get parts for since it was a one of a kind. Also, it ran on a 20 HP GE
SepEX
motor that required a custom complex controller. When it quit, I rebuilt
it
with an 84 V EV-1B on the armature and a 36 / 24 V switched field. It
never did
perform well again on the street. Maybe it was my weak old battery pack.
Maybe it was the controller. The car was a nice piece of machinery and if
I ever
had the opportunity to purchase it again in its original condition, I'd do
it
all over again. But, I think its performance could be duplicated in a
small
late model car with readily available components. And that would make a
better car long term. It is nice though to have owned a piece of history.
I had
about 200 hours or restoration time in it before I even took it on the
street.
I ran it on stands in the garage for a few weeks while testing its various
systems. When I finally took it on the street, it was a disappointment
and
didn't perform as I expected. I sold it a few days later. I have no idea
what
became of it after that.
I guess my primary question regarding performance revolves around the EV-1
controllers (or any controller for that matter) when you use a bypass. If
I run
it up to ~78 V / 150 A (PWM style) and then switch over the bypass to a
full
unregulated 84 V at whatever the motor wants to pull, what will happen?
Will
I get neck snapping performance? Or, will it be a slug? Will is blow the
fuse? The only experience I have is with the 1970 Saab. That thing was a
rocket
from 0 - 15 MPH in 2nd gear at only 36 V. What I am talking about is
basically a contactor controller at 84 V with a soft start to protect the
motor. I
have no experience with this, but I am hoping that someone does. But,
that
would only be used for acceleration. For cruising, i would rely on the 84
V PWM
with about 150 A max current continuous, which is only enough for the
smallest
of cars.
The more and more I think about it, I think anything less thn a 9" motor
would be a waste of time to put in a car - at least given my requirements
and
driving conditions. I could still use the 84 V controller with bypass,
but I
think a small 7" x 15" motor won't do what I need. What do you think?
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Okay so
1) What model Wal-Mart charger are you using to get
the stragglers up? I have a Schauer charger that
turns off the moment I hook it to an 8V battery. But
it's only good for 6A.
2) Are you charging the stragglers _while_ the others
are on a charge (ie, in parallel?) so that the
straggler "sees" 12V while the rest see 183V?
Thanks,
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Peterson<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To:
> [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:54 AM
> Subject: Still needing prof. battery advice.
> Additives
>
>
> <
>
> Hello Tom,
>
> The Battery Additive - "Charge It" in one gallon
> by JC Whitney is Item No. SV133723. Is on page 187
> In there winter catalog No. 705F-12. Phone No:
> 1-800-529-4486.
>
> Roland
>
> The reason may, that I been adding a battery
> additive which you can get
> by the gallons from JC Whitney. I add this
> additive when the batteries
> where new and about every 4 years. It dissolves
> sulfation and prevent
> sulfation formation.
>
> Another reason, which I was told by my battery
> company if you want a long
> battery life, is not to discharge the batteries
> below 80%!!! and never
> charge it above 95% every day, except about once a
> month to 100% for equalization.
>
>
> I normally charge the battery between 75 to 80%
> because my driving range
> is very short. It takes about 4 days of driving
> to get down to 75%.
>
> HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL
>
> I bought a gallon of "Charge it" five years ago
> and put two ounces in each of my
> T-105's in my Citicar. I used the Lester plus
> intermittent charges with two
> K-Mart auto bat tree chargers and I used a multi
> meter to read the voltage of
> each bat tree.
>
> Do you have the item number for the gallon of
> "Charge it" at JC Whitney?
>
> Tom
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
here might be a way to vote more than once per day... many of us have
multiple userids on our computers. I wonder if you logged off one id
and log in another ... if you couldn't vote again and have your vote
count??
dave
John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Wow, the power of the EVDL continues to amaze me. Keep those votes
coming. I just checked and White Zombie just displaced a 409 V8 power
Hudson hotrod to take the #20 place in the top 100.
I got a nice email back from the site owner, Brooks. He's pretty
pumped about EVs. He's going to list the car instead of 'White Zombie
Datsun 1200', as 'Electric Datsun 1200' when it inevitably hits the
top 15 and is then held on the opening page all month. He's doing
this, to where I don't have to send in an edit and shut the page down
for another 24 hours...cool.
Everyone who visits this site, now open for 6 years by the way, will
see the word 'Electric' associated with a fast machine...this helps
the EV cause, big time, as witnessed by the impact it's already had
with these two comments posted at the Zombie's Timeslip page:
**
(Richard in Corvallis)
No way John! Are you and Tim really running that fast? Simply amazing.
This is enough to get me to change careers!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Dave Davidson)
Looks like this proves that electric cars don't have to be slow. If a
person can do this with an old Datsun, why can't the automakers make a
fast electric car we can buy?
See Ya.....John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
How about if the brush rigging was adjustable enough, rotating the brush
rigging 90 degrees?
weight added <10 lbs! Just a lever, perhaps with a cable and a vernier
to dial in advance once in FWD position, and a couple of microswitches
to drop out main contactor if the lever is not in one of the 2 positions.
BTW, I voted again for our favorite drag vehicle :-); I wanted to see
what video but they buried the video inside a flash something or other
and I don't want to fuss with it (64Bit OS issue)
<gripe>
Having the right video codec is bad enough, why wrap it in flash.
</gripe>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
here might be a way to vote more than once per day... many of us
have multiple userids on our computers. I wonder if you logged off
one id and log in another ... if you couldn't vote again and have
your vote count??
I think it may track IP addresses.
I tried using different browsers in case it was a "Cookie" thing but
it did not work. I then logged into a neighbors wireless network and
was able to vote again.
Not that I recommend doing that, I think that our honest one vote per
day will succeed just as well and it feels better to do it that way.
btw: it might be good to list the link to the Zombie page on all the
posts that discuss it, that way those of use with hundreds of emails
a day can still find the link. Here it is:
http://www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html
Have fun!
--
-Otmar-
http://www.CafeElectric.com/ Home of the Zilla. Now in Corvallis Oregon!
http://www.evcl.com/914 My electric 914
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Otmar wrote:
here might be a way to vote more than once per day... many of us have
multiple userids on our computers. I wonder if you logged off one id
and log in another ... if you couldn't vote again and have your vote
count??
I think it may track IP addresses.
I tried using different browsers in case it was a "Cookie" thing but
it did not work. I then logged into a neighbors wireless network and
was able to vote again.
I vote at work, then at home every day ;)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
How about if the brush rigging was adjustable enough, rotating the brush
rigging 90 degrees?
weight added <10 lbs! Just a lever, perhaps with a cable and a vernier
to dial in advance once in FWD position, and a couple of microswitches
to drop out main contactor if the lever is not in one of the 2 positions.
On the Zombie's Siamese 8, against mild protests over how much work it
would be to do so, I had Jim stuff in twin parallel 4 gauge brush
interconnect leads at each brush end bell, to make sure all 2000 amps
got delivered to all the brushes :-) Because of this, the brush riggings
would be close to impossible to make rotateable (is that a word?). It's
pretty well stuffed at each end bell. It was difficult enough to do this
on the monster sized 13 inch 'Yellow Beast', and was only doable because
of how huge the spaces are inside this thing. Even with the bigger
spaces, the movable brush rigging and its multiple runs of flexible 4
gauge interconnects was difficult to pull off, thanks to Jim's artisan
talents though, he pulled it off.
BTW, I voted again for our favorite drag vehicle :-);
Thanks.
I wanted to see
what video but they buried the video inside a flash something or other
and I don't want to fuss with it (64Bit OS issue)
<gripe>
Having the right video codec is bad enough, why wrap it in flash.
</gripe>
That's weird, as on my Mac G4 laptop, it opens in about 5 seconds. In
fact, I was saying to myself as it opened so quickly and played in its
entirety, that I wished all web-posted videos opened and played so
quickly. The ones at my own web page aren't nearly as fast, and Brooks
got the video off my page!
Thanks every, for the support. Don't forget to vote for Matt's 240SX,
too. Keep your eyes on Matt and this car, as he's going to be getting
quicker and quicker, I promise he will! Though his car is considerably
heavier than mine, its got bigger and more powerful motors, and a bigger
and more powerful battery pack that sags less under high amp draws. With
the proper locking rear end, the proper gear ratio (this sometimes takes
a while to figure out), sticky drag radials (may I strongly suggest BF
Goodrich?), and front and rear suspension mods, I see 12's in the
future, and certainly mid to high 13's at this month's Beach drags in
Florida.
See Ya.....John Wayland
Zombie now standing at #18 with 289 votes..,just 3 more notches to hit
the top 15!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Bob Bath<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 1:43 PM
Subject: Re: Still needing prof. battery advice. charging the lowest
Okay so
1) What model Wal-Mart charger are you using to get
the stragglers up? I have a Schauer charger that
turns off the moment I hook it to an 8V battery. But
it's only good for 6A.
2) Are you charging the stragglers _while_ the others
are on a charge (ie, in parallel?) so that the
straggler "sees" 12V while the rest see 183V?
Thanks,
Hello Bob,
The charger I'm using is a Schumacher Model WM-1000A. It is a Smart charger
than can charge at 6 or 12 volt at 40 amp, 15 amp and 2 amp. It has settings
for a Regular battery, deep cell, AGM or GEL.
It has a digital voltage indicator that also shows percentage of charge.
You can used this unit as a tester to find the highest and lowest battery
voltage. I find it is best to drive the EV until your are down to about 75
percent so you has some room for charging the separate batteries.
First find the battery with the highest voltage and put on a short charge on
it which will indicated the charger voltage which will be higher than the
standing battery voltage. Then used this charger voltage as a reference for all
the other batteries you bring up to that reference voltage.
If I have a battery that is only 0.04 voltage difference than the highest
battery, it will take less than a minute to bring it up. So you will have to
be alert to switch the charger off. There is no power switch on these
chargers, you have to pull the wall plug anyway first, before installing the DC
charger clips on to the battery. I am going to install a switch on the top
portion of this charger which will be in the cable storage compartment.
Before I had this charger, I had a standard 12 volt charger of which I could
charge the 6 volt batteries, which the amperes would be double and I had to be
very quick to shut it down. I had to used a separate digital volt meter to
monitor the voltage.
If you get one of these chargers that have only 6 and 12 volt rating, I
would first test it out on your 8 volt batteries to see if it will work. If
not, than take it back. I think Schumacher makes a 6 - 8 - 12 volt battery
charger that you may have to special order. I always test out anything to see
if it will work.
Roland
--- Roland Wiench <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Thomas Peterson<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>>
> To:
>
[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>>
> Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 10:54 AM
> Subject: Still needing prof. battery advice.
> Additives
>
>
> <
>
> Hello Tom,
>
> The Battery Additive - "Charge It" in one gallon
> by JC Whitney is Item No. SV133723. Is on page 187
> In there winter catalog No. 705F-12. Phone No:
> 1-800-529-4486.
>
> Roland
>
> The reason may, that I been adding a battery
> additive which you can get
> by the gallons from JC Whitney. I add this
> additive when the batteries
> where new and about every 4 years. It dissolves
> sulfation and prevent
> sulfation formation.
>
> Another reason, which I was told by my battery
> company if you want a long
> battery life, is not to discharge the batteries
> below 80%!!! and never
> charge it above 95% every day, except about once a
> month to 100% for equalization.
>
>
> I normally charge the battery between 75 to 80%
> because my driving range
> is very short. It takes about 4 days of driving
> to get down to 75%.
>
> HAPPY NEW YEAR ALL
>
> I bought a gallon of "Charge it" five years ago
> and put two ounces in each of my
> T-105's in my Citicar. I used the Lester plus
> intermittent charges with two
> K-Mart auto bat tree chargers and I used a multi
> meter to read the voltage of
> each bat tree.
>
> Do you have the item number for the gallon of
> "Charge it" at JC Whitney?
>
> Tom
>
>
'92 Honda Civic sedan, 144V (video or DVD available)!
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html<http://www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html>
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________
Yahoo! for Good - Make a difference this year.
http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/<http://brand.yahoo.com/cybergivingweek2005/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bassoonii/album?.dir=/bb22 I was in a
neighbor's garage helping charge a battery when I spied on the wall a 72
tooth sprocket. By chance it seemed to match up with bicycle chain. I got
my adapter in the mail. What is the chance of that being the right ratio?
Millions to one. The part number is on a couple of the pictures. My
neighbor gave me the sprocket.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Yup - starter motor way do the trick with automatic
disengage "clutch".
Alternative is a lightweight DC/DC converter that
generates a "negative" voltage (opposite of the
main battery bank) and with a little contactor
(50 Amp?) can run its output through ONE motor,
you won't go racing backwards, would you?
The extra contactor (and light 2 AWG cable) hooks
up to one side of the series contactor; all 3 main
contactors (series + 2x parallel) must be disengaged
so only the other side of the motor is connected to
the main battery bank and the return of the extra
DC/DC converter.
Talking about DC/DC converters:
if you plan to use an additional 12V motor (like the
starter motor) then any decent size battery should be
sufficient, as the DC/DC will recharge it between the
moments of using it to reverse.
This likely requires a smaller DC/DC than the first idea
but the additional weight is in the 12V motor.
All the above share one common problem: you cannot control
the reverse speed, you have a fixed power reverse.
May be very tricky to operate in a safe way!
Anti-parallel reverse idea:
This idea does not change the number of contactors or
resistance of your main drive setup but depends on
you having two motors and external access to the
connection between field and armture winding and will
use the series motors in a much less efficient parallel
motor setup, but since you won't be racing backwards,
this setup may work for you, in particular when you have
the two motors with the field coils attached to the
series contactor (note: you can randomly select in which
order the Field and Armature windings are connected, as
long as the current runs the same direction through both
then the motor will run identical).
The usual setup for a series connection (omitting the
two parallel-switching contactors for clarity) is:
+ motor1 series motor2 -
with + and - the controller's motor outputs and
with "series" the series contactor.
Now lets split each motor in its Armature and Field
windings:
+ Armature1 Field1 series Field2 Armature2 -
We see that as soon as the "series" contactor closes,
the same current runs through all of the windings.
Now assume that we add two extra contactors, each
running from the connection between a motor's Field
and Armature winding to the opposite motor-output
of the controller: (X1 and X2 are the contactors)
+ Armature1 \ Field1 series Field2 / Armature2 -
\ X1 - + X2 /
You can see that when the contactors close the
connections and voltages on the windings are reversed
for the two Field windings:
+ Armature1 - Field1 series Field2 + Armature2 -
In other words: when both X1, X2 as well as the series
contactor are closed, the two motors are running in
reverse, with the two Armature windings parallel across
the controller and the series of the two Field windings
also parallel to the two Armature windings, but with
current in the opposite direction.
This means that a lot of current will be drawn, mostly
by the low resistance Field windings (that's why they
better be in series to double the resistance and allow
twice as much current through the Armature) but still
it will need a good current-limiter in the controller!
The beauty is that you do not need to add motors, only
2 very short cables and 2 contactors, bolting right
onto the motors themselves. In addition, you can
control the "reverse" drive with the accelerator pedal,
through the controller.
If you are not sure if the parallel-switched motor
setup will deliver enough power (ie not short the
controller before moving the car) then you can
easily rig it up with 2 short cables WITHOUT even
bothering about the contactors and test the reverse
drive to see if you have some power.
My guess is that you have only about 10% of the
forward power in reverse, due to the unbalanced
current, mostly flowing through the Field windings.
You would have a very clean setup though, no need
for big cables into the cabin, only one additional
control line to the two additional contactors.
Hope you like this idea of the "anti-parallel reverse",
Happy Newyear to everybody!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Saturday, December 31, 2005 5:54 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Reverse for Direct Drive (was S10 reverse)
Hello to All,
Doug Weathers wrote:
>
> On Dec 31, 2005, at 9:28 AM, John Wayland wrote:
>
>> Hey list folks, any creative but light weight reverse ideas for a
>> high powered direct drive drag - street car?
>
>
> Instead of a reversing contactor, how about a big beefy reversing
> knife switch? Would that provide less loss than the reversing
> contactors?
Yes, it would. However....One such knife switch would have to have 4
sets of single pole knives to reverse just one motor section. The
Siamese 8 has dual motor sections, thus, we're now looking at 8 sets of
beefy knife switches. Then, you have to consider that to wire these up,
you'd have to run six fairly long lengths of massive (heavy and bulky)
4/0 cable under the car, then into the car to the switcher. We labored
hours, just getting two 4/0 cables to fit through the tunnel, up into
the stainless steel emergency disconnect mount, and mounted secure to
where they would not be scraped by the fat aluminum driveline...it was
super tight fit that had Tim ready to throw things. Another version
could mount the 8 pole knife switch atop the motor, and use buss bar
connections, then have a rod actuator that would pass through the
firewall to a lever to operate things. This would eliminate all the BIG
cables running from the motor sections and into the car and back, but it
would still be a pretty heavy device, and quite frankly, it would ruin
the present super simple and clean motor install.
>
> Or instead of the knife switch, how about another one of those
> emergency disconnects you've got in the cabin? Take it out, turn it
> around, and plug it back in, and you've got reverse (assuming
> everything was wired up correctly). This idea would remove all the
> bare metal of the knife switch.
Again, two motor sections to deal with, and lots of bulky and heavy 4/0
cables with next to zero room to rout them.
>
> How about having a small idler wheel on a hydraulic strut in front of
> each rear tire? Extend the strut, and the idler wheel is forced under
> the tire. Now when the rear wheels turn, the idler wheels turn the
> opposite direction and move the car backwards.
Now this is getting over the top...but it's fun to consider :-)
>
> Is there a way to make the rear end reverse, perhaps with a yank on a
> cable?
I wish.
Hey, I appreciate the ideas, keep 'em coming, but consider my
requirements of a clean and sano install that won't obscure the view of
the motor, very heavy current handling capacity, limited room to run
cables through the tunnel (call this next to none), high reliability,
and lastly but very important, low weight.
The rear mounted, 12V reverse motor idea sounds the best so far. Using a
nice, small sized import type starter motor, most of which use aluminum
for the head section, employ quality-made series wound motors, and use a
higher revving motor that's already gear reduced to lower current draw,
along with a gear that mounts to the rear end input flange, seems like
the best way so far.
See Ya....John Wayland
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Hello to John and all and Happy New Year to all EV listers! :^D
All the talk about a simple and lightweight reversing setup for the Zombie
made me think of the way a PM hubmotor is constructed.
How about a PM motor built as part of the driveline?
Like right at the front flange where there is no up and down movement?
You could make it a series-wound motor, with lots more torque in a small
package.
Cosmetically it is a no-brainer because it is not visible except from
underneath :^D
It only has to operate for a few seconds at a time right? High current at
low voltage no problem for a few seconds. (Though I could see it being an
issue backing uphill at very low speeds)
This sounds like a job for Jim Husted/Hi-Torque Electric :^D
.
Roy LeMeur
Olympia WA
My Electric Vehicle Pages:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evpage.html
Informative Electric Vehicle Links:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/renewables/evlinks.html
EV Parts/Gone Postal Photo Galleries:
http://www.casadelgato.com/RoyLemeur/page01.htm
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On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 12:43:55 -0800, Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>here might be a way to vote more than once per day... many of us have
>multiple userids on our computers. I wonder if you logged off one id
>and log in another ... if you couldn't vote again and have your vote
>count??
They probably log IP addresses. If so and if you're on dialup, just
hang up and dial back in. You'll probably get a different IP address.
That said, does it not bother anyone else that this "stuffing the
ballot box" is cheating? As they say in Louisiana, if everyone "votes
early and votes often", what does it accomplish?
I'm not even sure what this "raise awareness" really means. I'm sure
most every car guy has heard of EVs one way or another. Does that
other built Datsun raise awareness of, oh, turbochargers? Did Don
Garlits' steam and air powered dragsters raise awareness of those
energy sources? I have a photo here in my collection of a drag bike
powered with about 36 chainsaws. Chainsaw awareness?
I just don't get it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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Well, what can ya do but laugh sometimes... Only a few months after I
decide I'm going to build a compact pickup truck with a thirteen-inch
motor, none other than the owner of the quickest [and most skillfully
built] street-legal electric dragster informs me he's already doing the
same thing. Not only with a lighter, stronger truck, but with a
beautiful 13" Allis Chalmers motor salvaged, tweaked and blueprinted by
the fastest rising star in high-performance EV motor wizardry, Jim
Husted. To answer my nebulous plans of eventually adding variable brush
timing, he tells me he's already done it, and in September I got to see
how well it works, effortlessly varying speed with a shift of a lever
under a constant 24V bench demonstration in the Wayland garage.
And then a few months later I find out that the owner, driver and
builder of the quickest [and most financially successful?] electric rail
dragster in history is also doing the same thing, and has who knows how
many artful tricks up his sleeve. Certainly a far cry from just throwing
a motor into a truck, which is all I can afford for now, and all I have
the experience to attempt.
While the ego-buzzkill here might be a bit of a disappointment, these
developments are just too darned awesome to get me down... I know in
both cases we'll not only see a finished product that looks good and
goes like stink, but they'll be built *right*. I for one can't wait for
pictures. And videos... and timeslips! :o)
But for those who might still be following my big-motor-in-a-truck, I
got a long-awaited phone call on Friday .. after nearly eleven months of
development (and that's only since I got involved). My motor is finally
finished and ready to ship. The folks at Netgain were nice enough to
take some pictures for me, a few of which I've posted in my gallery
here:
http://ohmbre.org/gallery/motor
Latest weblog post on the subject is here:
http://ohmbre.org/blog/2006/01/01/getting-close/
Weblog itelf of course, here:
http://ohmbre.org
The motor has several customizations, including the custom Dutchman
hardened chrome-moly shaft, a super-lightweight plastic fan, and banding
around the armature, commutator, and "knuckles" (where the comm bars are
attached to the windings).
I just hope it runs as well as it looks! :o) I'll get some more
close-up shots when the motor arrives, in about a week or so.
--chris
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That is one awesome sprocket. OR is it a cog?
:)
---------------------------------
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less
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Hello to All,
Neon John wrote:
They probably log IP addresses. If so and if you're on dialup, just
hang up and dial back in. You'll probably get a different IP address.
That said, does it not bother anyone else that this "stuffing the
ballot box" is cheating?
It's not cheating, this from the mouth of the guy who started, runs, and
owns the site. In fact, he encourages it. The more hits he receives, the
better it is for his advertisers. The other vehicles that have also
received heavy votes, have also gotten most of them due to club
memberships voting for the vehicle of their choice, too. How did the
Subaru SVX, a car that was poorly received by the general public and
didn't even have reasonable performance to back up its sudo-sporting
nature, get to be the December car of the month, especially with a
sluggish 15.7 second ET? And why is the highest current contender also
one of these SVX's? The answer, is the Subaru SVX clubs. The current car
that won the January slot is indeed, a very quick Corvette, but it more
than likely got most its votes from the myriad of organized Corvette
clubs on the Internet...there's certainly nothing unique or ground
breaking about another Corvette running 1/4 mile drags.
I'm not even sure what this "raise awareness" really means....I just don't get
it.
Based on your comments, I'd have to agree with you...you really don't
get it, do you? Let my try to help you out, then :-) ....Once White
Zombie hits the opening page and is listed as an 'Electric' Datsun 1200
for all who visit this site to see, instead of having to purposefully be
seeking out a Datsun 1200 (a now very old economy car that I doubt many
today regularly seek out) in order to even see and vote for my car, what
will happen instead is this:
The regular gear head V8 muscle car guys, or the tweaked turbo V6 crowd,
or the high power ricers, will spot that word 'electric' and at first,
will probably chuckle over predisposed assumptions that they will be
looking at a 20 second ET....their curiosity will get the best of
them...they'll go take a look...they'll see a very respectable low 12
second ET...they'll more than likely run the video and be amazed at the
launch...then they'll go back and peruse the listed specs, the specs
that are largely listed as 'none' and will absolutely blow their
minds...no pistons, no cylinders, no carburetor, no spark plugs, etc.,
etc.....then, they'll come away with a completely different view of
electrics and more than likely, will cast a favorable vote...this my
friend, is how you dramatically and emphaticly 'raise awareness'.
I'm sure most every car guy has heard of EVs one way or another.
Perhaps, but the majority of them still think they're slow, dull, and
boring....I will again, list the following posted comment brought about
solely from having the car at this site:
>(Dave Davidson)
>Looks like this proves that electric cars don't have to be slow. If a
person can do this with an old Datsun, why can't the automakers >make a
fast electric car we can buy?
Does that other built Datsun raise awareness of, oh, turbochargers?
It just might. It certainly shows what a whopping 40 lbs. of turbo boost
can do to a small 1800 cc 4-banger!
Actually, I must return to your own words 'I just don't get
it'.....because even this, non EV thing seems to have gone right over
your head.
I was one of the early turbo-import guys, way back when the whole
import-ricer thing wasn't even around yet, back in the early 70's. I
knew back then, that someday, hot 4 bangers would be rock'n the drag
strip in large numbers someday, running neck and neck with built
V8s....today, we have a 6 second 4 banger in a street bodied car, and
factory turbo 4 bangers you can walk into a showroom and buy, that out
of the box, do 0-60 in the mid four second range! Back then, the V8
muscle head guys 'just didn't get it', and they'd laugh at me and my 4
cylinder Datsun....then I'd meet up with them and blow their V8 doors
off....then, they got it! Today, though more and more folks now know all
about the hot import scene, there are still guys dragging their knuckles
saying dumb things like 'My '67 Goat can beat any 4 cylinder'...then
they show up to a drag strip for the first time in 20 years, run a 14.4
and get blown off by a stock Subaru!
No John, it doesn't raise awareness of turbochargers, it raises
awareness that there are now 4 cylinder cars that run 9 seconds flat!
Sorry you've missed the point of this exercise. The rest of us do 'get
it', and we know that having a strong performing EV recognized and
featured at this site, will indeed, raise EV awareness...big time! I
have no doubts at all, that more than a few new EVers will be born from
their exposure to this, and that's the way we do it for now, one convert
at a time.
See Ya.....John 'I get it' Wayland
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....made it into the top 15! Featured on the main page - yes!
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-501-641-8576
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of John Wayland
Sent: Sunday, January 01, 2006 12:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Zombie at DragTimes Web Site
Hello to All,
Wow, the power of the EVDL continues to amaze me. Keep those votes
coming. I just checked and White Zombie just displaced a 409 V8 power
Hudson hotrod to take the #20 place in the top 100.
I got a nice email back from the site owner, Brooks. He's pretty pumped
about EVs. He's going to list the car instead of 'White Zombie Datsun
1200', as 'Electric Datsun 1200' when it inevitably hits the top 15 and
is then held on the opening page all month. He's doing this, to where I
don't have to send in an edit and shut the page down for another 24
hours...cool.
Everyone who visits this site, now open for 6 years by the way, will see
the word 'Electric' associated with a fast machine...this helps the EV
cause, big time, as witnessed by the impact it's already had with these
two comments posted at the Zombie's Timeslip page:
**
(Richard in Corvallis)
No way John! Are you and Tim really running that fast? Simply amazing.
This is enough to get me to change careers!!
------------------------------------------------------------------------
(Dave Davidson)
Looks like this proves that electric cars don't have to be slow. If a
person can do this with an old Datsun, why can't the automakers make a
fast electric car we can buy?
See Ya.....John Wayland
>
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John Wayland wrote:
Hello to All,
Neon John wrote:
They probably log IP addresses. If so and if you're on dialup, just
hang up and dial back in. You'll probably get a different IP address.
That said, does it not bother anyone else that this "stuffing the
ballot box" is cheating?
It's not cheating, this from the mouth of the guy who started, runs,
and owns the site. In fact, he encourages it. The more hits he
receives, the better it is for his advertisers.
So that would be actual hits, right? If you want to "stuff the box", ya
could do right... I do have access to 72 IP addresses and a bunch of
idle servers. There are others on the list with similar resources. Add
some scripting and wala - hundreds of votes every day from now till the
moon turns blue. But that might just be overdoing things a bit, eh?
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Well said John. You go guy!
Wishing a happy and successful '06 for everyone...including those who 'just
don't get it.'
Richard in Corvallis
--
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