EV Digest 5065
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Federal EV tax credit
by Green VW <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: New to the group
by "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Federal EV tax credit
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by Tim <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: New to the group
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Cold Weather Correction - Depth of Discharge
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Federal EV tax credit
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) re: New to the group
by Jimmy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Refractometer vs. Hydrometer
by Dave <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
by "Roy Nutter" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: New to the group
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Am I murdering my pack?
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) New NEDRA rules coming soon
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Federal EV tax credit
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Federal EV tax credit (Russian Glider)
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Neg supply for E-meter
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I want to build a PWM DC motor controller
by Stefan Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Fw: Geo Metro EV on a budget
by bruce bogusz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Federal EV tax credit
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Federal EV tax credit (Russian Glider)
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> It's slow to regain lost Peukert capacity but equally slow to
> lose it in the first place.
I seriously doubt the "equally" part, although I agree that the loss is
not instantaneous.
When the battery is being discharged there are strong electromotive
forces present to force the ions in the electrolyte to move in a given
direction, but when it is resting there are much weaker forces available
to move the ions around into a more uniform distribution.
I expect, and it seems to be borne out by empirical evidence, that the
electrolyte depletion is a much more rapid process than the diffusion
that restores it, and so the net effect is much closer to continuous
discharge at the high rate as the diffusion process is unable to fully
restore the ion distribution between each discharge pulse and so the
electrolyte becomes more and more depleted with each subsequent pulse.
In any event, we may debate the exact mechanism at work, but the
undebatable end result is already well-established by EVers in the 70's
and 80's: a low-frequency controller that subjects the batteries to high
current discharge pulses results in greatly reduced capacity (precisely
as predicted by Peukert) and reduced cycle life compared to a
high-frequency controller (with bus caps) that subjects the batteries to
the average current instead.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting possibilities on the deduction of conversion costs can be
found in IRS pub 535 chapter 12, pp44-45 (particularly the last
paragraph on p 44 and on p45 middle column paragraph 2 and 2a)
On Jan 6, 2006, at 1:41 PM, Danny Miller wrote:
Reclaimed title? You could argue it's not the same vehicle, the
original was just "parts".
Danny
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
According to the following page, only new EVs that "have never been
used as a non-electric vehicle" are eligible for the tax credit.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_afv.shtml#ev
Does anybody have a defensible way of claiming the credit for a
conversion?
Cheers, Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 6, 2006, at 4:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
First time I joined a discussion group.
About 3/4 of the way through a conversion and I'm having a great time.
I forgot how much I loved to work on this stuff.
Sounds like you are making good progress. Welcome to the EV list. You
sure chose a busy list to make your first :-)
I guess I'm working on what you would call a garden variety conversion
-
- a 9" ADC motor, 18 Pba's and a Zilla.
The really creative part is pulling it all together.
Oh, it's a 1998 New Beetle.
The electric car thing goes back to 1970 when I was a junior in
highschool.
Gasp! 36 years ago! A couple of false starts, but I finally got around
to it.
I was introduced to, and interested in, EVs as a child myself. I didn't
do anything about it until about 1999, when I found this list. About 20
years between my exposure and my action. Now I've built 2 EVs and own
one (sold the other after driving it for awhile.)
Anyway, what the heck are the two small red wires for that are
sticking out of the ADC motor?
Temperature sensor or something?
I think you are right. The temp wires stick out of the side of the
motor, under one of the field poles. Its generally on of/off switch,
and not in the spot that heats up first (brushes are first but not as
easy.) I would use it to run a light (I like the old oil pressure
light) but I would not rely on it to warn you before motor damage. If
the motor gets overheated by prolonged modest overload it will operate
before motor damage. If EV amp abuse (like driving around in too high a
gear) overheats the motor it will not warn you in time.
Feel free to ask questions and enjoy the personalities here :-)
Paul "neon" G.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It sounds like you have to get a new car from a mfg without the ICE
installed, trailer it home and commence with the conversion. Somehow, I
almost guess they'd charge extra to leave the ICE out...or give some
small credit at best (has anyone on the list tried it?)
I suppose the basis of the question is to learn what sorts of tax
credits or governments sponsored incentives are available for EV users.
I noticed the following website is useful for determining if there are
any state resources available (Connecticut sounds like the place to
be!).
http://www.eere.energy.gov/cleancities/vbg/progs/laws.cgi
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 06, 2006 5:35 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Federal EV tax credit
> * It has never been used as a nonelectric vehicle.
So where does that leave coversions?
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> From the page:
>
> What is a qualifying electric vehicle?
>
> To be eligible for the tax credit, a vehicle must meet the following
> requirements
>
> * It must be powered primarily by an electric motor drawing current
> from rechargeable batteries, fuel cells, or other portable
sources
> of electrical current.
> * It must have at least four wheels and be manufactured primarily
> for use on public streets, roads, and highways (vehicles
> exclusively used on rail or rails do not qualify).
> * It must meet all federal and state emissions requirements.
> * It has never been used as a nonelectric vehicle.
> * You must purchase the vehicle new and for your own use, not for
> resale
> * You must drive it mostly in the United States.
> * Government agencies, tax exempt organizations, and foreign
> entities are not eligible.
>
>
> Must be "purchased new." Translation: no home-built or conversion.
>
> Also, no from-scratch motorcycles (in theory easier than a
> from-scratch car), as they don't have four wheels.
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>> According to the following page, only new EVs that "have never been
>> used as a non-electric vehicle" are eligible for the tax credit.
>> http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_afv.shtml#ev
>> Does anybody have a defensible way of claiming the credit for a
>> conversion?
>>
>> Cheers, Jay Donnaway
>> www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think 60 vdc is too high for a 48 volt pack. Adding the rectifiers
drops the voltage.
Tim
kluge wrote:
Bridge rectifiers in series? Why?
Jerry Halstead posted:
http://www.evconvert.com/article/yugo-greg
Greg converted his Yugo for $800. He bought pretty much everything
from Ebay and did his own machining work.
-------------------------------------------------------
On the website there's this explanation of how Greg built his battery charger:
"I took a small Sears arc welder that puts out 48 volts when fitted with a full wave bridge rectifier. It wouldn’t bring the pack up quick enough so
I added a 12 volt transformer and another full wave bridge rectifier on the side of the original case. Now I get almost 60 volts and charges at
10 amps.
Latest Update 8/26/05: I did have to add 2 bridge rectifiers in series for EACH transformer but now it charges well."
Bridge rectifiers in series? Why?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for the welcome, Paul and Jim.
It's very odd to me that there are so many seriously interested in electric
vehicles.
Honestly, I've never met one.
I've only seen one electric in person and that was in 1978.
We do have a local chapter of the EVA - I guess I should go to a meeting.
There must be electric cars around here somewhere.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> On Jan 6, 2006, at 4:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > First time I joined a discussion group.
> > About 3/4 of the way through a conversion and I'm having a great time.
> > I forgot how much I loved to work on this stuff.
>
> Sounds like you are making good progress. Welcome to the EV list. You
> sure chose a busy list to make your first :-)
>
> > I guess I'm working on what you would call a garden variety conversion
> > -
> > - a 9" ADC motor, 18 Pba's and a Zilla.
> > The really creative part is pulling it all together.
> > Oh, it's a 1998 New Beetle.
> >
> > The electric car thing goes back to 1970 when I was a junior in
> > highschool.
> > Gasp! 36 years ago! A couple of false starts, but I finally got around
> > to it.
>
> I was introduced to, and interested in, EVs as a child myself. I didn't
> do anything about it until about 1999, when I found this list. About 20
> years between my exposure and my action. Now I've built 2 EVs and own
> one (sold the other after driving it for awhile.)
>
> > Anyway, what the heck are the two small red wires for that are
> > sticking out of the ADC motor?
> > Temperature sensor or something?
>
> I think you are right. The temp wires stick out of the side of the
> motor, under one of the field poles. Its generally on of/off switch,
> and not in the spot that heats up first (brushes are first but not as
> easy.) I would use it to run a light (I like the old oil pressure
> light) but I would not rely on it to warn you before motor damage. If
> the motor gets overheated by prolonged modest overload it will operate
> before motor damage. If EV amp abuse (like driving around in too high a
> gear) overheats the motor it will not warn you in time.
>
> Feel free to ask questions and enjoy the personalities here :-)
>
> Paul "neon" G.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cold weather experts...
My battery pack is (about 35 cycles old) at 12kW-hrs (15 8vGC) - and has
proven that it can eek out 24 miles on a 32 deg day @ aprox. 1hr
discharge. That gives me an average economy of about 300 watt-hours for
the car with a 50% deduction for cold weather (as other drivers
report)...
120v * 100AHr (1hr rate) = 12,000WHr
12,000WHr * 50% (32 deg correction - 100% @ 72F) = 6,000WHr
6,000WHr / 250WHr/mile = 24 miles
My power meter indicates a 10kWhr consumption per charge (20 miles
traveled consistently). Thus, it appears that the batteries are taking
their predicted load @ temp.
**My question**: How do I factor in the cold weather with respect to
depth of discharge for prediction of battery life? As I see it, there
are two options (for analysis);
Option 1)
Consider the cold weather as a draw...like an added 0.5C per cycle draw,
as follows;
- Power consumed per trip (car) = 10kWHr (measured @ charge cycle)
- 10kWhr / 12kWhr = 83%DOD
Option 2)
Consider the additional capacity as lost due to kinetic inefficiencies
of the batteries at low temp (i.e. not actually drawn out), as follows;
- 250WHr/mile * 20 miles = 5,000kWHrs
- 5kWHr / 12kWhr = 42%DOD
My initial impression was that Option 2 was correct (i.e. when I
configured the traction pack - designing for a 1000 cycle life based on
US Batt's data). However, I have a suspicion that Option 1 may be the
actual story (leading to a 500 cycle life prediction). What does
experience say?
Thanks,
Craig
Electric Daytona IROC
http://www.geocities.com/cmmuell/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Jan 06, 2006 at 07:50:52PM -0600, Mueller, Craig M wrote:
> It sounds like you have to get a new car from a mfg without the ICE
> installed, trailer it home and commence with the conversion.
It seems like a new car with an Engine installed that is upgraded to electric
at 0 miles, (or perhaps < 7500 miles in CA?) would qualify for this credit.
The keyword seems to be "used" as a nonelectric vehicle.
A car is considered new in CA if it has < 7500 miles for tax purposes.
IANAL, so talk to your tax attorneys :)
Thanks!
> Somehow, I
> almost guess they'd charge extra to leave the ICE out...or give some
> small credit at best (has anyone on the list tried it?)
I've heard that Solectria did this for the Force conversions. I think this
is a very hard deal to setup, and may be impossible for an individual to do.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Welcome Dana,
I was a sophomore in 1970 and was mentally "abducted"
into the EV fold shortly thereafter. I physically got
into it in 1993 and to this day can't shake the habit.
We are rebuilding our 4th vehicle and it is still a
lot of fun. Feel free to ask questions, there is a
lot of help here for the asking.
check out some old VWs:
http://www.dm3electrics.com/
Good Luck,
Jimmy
Forwarded Message
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [email protected]
Subject: New to the group
Date: Sat, 07 Jan 2006 00:08:16 +0000
Plain Text Attachment [ Download File | Save to Yahoo!
Briefcase ]
Hi everyone -
First time I joined a discussion group.
About 3/4 of the way through a conversion and I'm
having a great time.
I forgot how much I loved to work on this stuff.
I guess I'm working on what you would call a garden
variety conversion
-
- a 9" ADC motor, 18 Pba's and a Zilla.
The really creative part is pulling it all together.
Oh, it's a 1998 New Beetle.
The electric car thing goes back to 1970 when I was a
junior in
highschool.
Gasp! 36 years ago! A couple of false starts, but I
finally got around
to it.
Anyway, what the heck are the two small red wires for
that are sticking
out of the ADC motor?
Temperature sensor or something?
Dana
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger, Nawaz,
thanks for the feedback. I think I'll probably order a misco now. I
can't resist tools that work. :^)
Nawaz Qureshi wrote:
I concur with Roger. Stratification occurs only if the batteries do
not gas. Once the acid is mixed up, it does not ever stratify by
itself as it is a solution. Concentrated (heavy) acid is produced at
the plates during charge and being denser, heads to the bottom until
the batteries start to gas which mixes it up.
Sincerely
Nawaz
Dave [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Yeah I know it's probably anal but I'm a newbie and this is a brand
new pack and I'm still getting familar with it and
battery maintenance in general. The first dozen cycles I
checked the SG after charge and after dis-charge just so I
could see what was going on as quickly as possible.
I thought so, but didn't want to say [type] it. ;^>
>(Stratification) This is true, however, if you take your sg
readings >shortly after the batteries finish charging...
> >
But if you do that you are measuring a surface charge that will
dissapate resulting in a higher than actual reading. ???
I haven't noticed any such effect in my testing, however, my
refractometer only resolves s.g. to 0.005, and I don't worry
particularly much about a difference of 0.005 or less between readings.
Perhaps a battery expert such as Nawaz can confirm/refute this for us,
however, my experience suggests that surface charge may be largely or
entirely a voltage phenomenon as I have not noticed any evidence of s.g.
varying significantly between readings taken an hour or two after the
end of charge or 12hrs or more after the end of charge. If you have
noticed such effects, it may be that what you are really noticing is the
effect of temperature on the uncompensated s.g. reading as the battery
(likely) cools over the several hours following the end of charge.
It is commonly recommended that voltage readings be taken many hours
after the end of charge when using them to estimate the state of charge,
or at the very least to take the readings some consistent amount of time
after the end of charge so that the readings have consistent meaning.
My own testing suggests that the voltage settles very nearly to its
final value within a few hours of the end of charge, so I don't worry
particularly much about this.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris:
Yes even our web page is a little outdated. www.csee.wvu.edu/~formula
Formula Lightning as a competition for engineering schools has died a slow
death :-( There are a few of us die hards still competing in various other
venues however. The schools that can still put together a team are West
Virginia University, Ohio State, Ohio University, Wright State, and IUPUI on
occasion. The others have pretty well given up. I expect most of the original
15 cars still exist and can be found if anyone is interested. A couple have
been canabalized and one has been totaled for sure. The others are hanging
around not too far from the schools that had them.
I have kept the students here at WVU interested (for now) but we don't travel
like we used to do. Without a series sponsor, it has been difficult to keep
funded.
We will participate in the POWER of DC in June at Hagerstown Dragway (we ARE
making changes from last year guys :-) and there is talk about a time distance
econo run at Lowes Motor Speedway in July but that is about it for FL.
...Roy
*------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
For all the talk about drag racing on this list, and the occasional
tidbit on autocross thanks to the folks at ProEV, it seems that Formula
Lightning is something that doesn't get brought up here nearly often
enough.
In fact, I'd kinda thought FL had died out -- does it still exist? All
the pages I can find (that actually load) seem a few years old...
--chris
On Thu, 2006-01-05 at 22:34 -0500, Roy Nutter wrote:
> Hi Don:
> Several reasons. Among them, the frames of FL are a tubular steel;
> this one appears to be angle iron :-). Batteries appear to be open and
> not contained. No one has run ADC motors for FL racing for years (they
> cook spectactularly after about 15 minutes of high current :-). Body is
> not spec form but appears to be too narrow and the from nose is not
> spec. Probably many others if I look again.
>
> I was also looking for our on-lines rules site but it seems to be
> messed up. I can e-mail you a copy of the rules as the currently stand
> if you really are serious about looking at them :-)
>
> ...Roy
>
>
>
>
> Roy, pray tell... why?
>
> Inquiring minds like to learn!
>
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Roy Nutter
> Sent: January 5, 2006 12:45 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
>
> This is DEFINITELY NOT a Formula lightning. This would not come close
> to
> passing the rules for FL.
>
> ...Roy Nutter
>
> From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Date: 1/4/06 6:51PM
> Subject: RE: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
>
> This looks very much like the formula lightening racers built at the
> Universities. Although a quick search for a racer marked "Apex" did
> not
> turn up anything.
>
> Maybe check out the "formula lightening" projects to see what transaxle
> they
> use.
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
> www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Neon John
> Sent: January 4, 2006 2:10 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Electric Indy Racer on eBay
>
> Bet I could get a tag in TN :-)
>
> Anyone have any idea what kind of transaxle they used? That looks like
> it
> could be useful on other cars.
>
> On Wed, 04 Jan 2006 13:46:05 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> >Can't make it street legal, I suppose...
> >http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=460128382
>
> >8
> >
> ---
> John De Armond
> See my website for my current email address http://www.johngsbbq.com
> Cleveland, Occupied TN A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of
> little
> minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Roy S. Nutter, Jr. , Professor
> West Virginia University
> 933 Engineering Sciences Bld
> POB 6109, Lane Dept of CSEE
> Morgantown, WV 26506-6109
> Tel: (304)-293-0405 x2510
> Fax: (304)- 293-8602
> e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:57 AM 7/01/06 +0000, Dana wrote:
It's very odd to me that there are so many seriously interested in
electric vehicles.
Honestly, I've never met one.
Hi Dana
OK, 1000 people on this list, making a guess here that 80% are in the USA,
so 800 USA listees. Maybe 1 in 10 serious EVers belong to this list, so
8000 USA serious EVers. USA has, what, 140,000,000 people? (not being there
I'm not really sure), but 1 person in 17,500 is probably a reasonable
estimate of serious EV hobbyist levels. Do you know more than 17,500
people? Well you're the one in 17,500, so not surprising!
But there probably are people you know who are interested in EVs, but
haven't started to do anything - probably more than half of the list
members don't have a useable EV.
I live in a small city - around 40,000 people I think. Apart from me there is:
One person with an on-road EV (who I only found out about when he brought
his E-meter in for repair),
One with a vehicle stripped to be an EV (who I employ),
One who did a (poor) conversion 30-odd years ago,
One who I know is collecting parts to maybe do an EV.
So of 5 people who are 'into' EVs that I know of, one I wouldn't have known
about but for him bringing his E-meter in for repair, myself and two others
talk about EVs, so three in 40,000 who talk about EVs, but we travel in
roughly the same circles, so there are a lot of people we haven't met.
So it is not surprising that you havent knowingly met many/any other EV
enthusiasts, and are 'blown away' by this list. That's probably where most
people find themselves at one time or other, unless they find a 'mentor'
who infects them with the EV disease.
James (in Australia)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, another newbie question. I am using a 20 amp charger for my batteries. They
are rated 44 ah. That works out to be c/2 roughly. According to the website,
"400 cycles @ 80% dod and a c/5 charge."
The pack seems to charge fine, they do not overheat and the charger kicks
into float after 2-3 hours.
Should i look into another charger or modifing this one for less current?
These battery things are a mystery to me! Help!!!
paul
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays,
whatever.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton wrote:
In any event, we may debate the exact mechanism at work, but the
undebatable end result is already well-established by EVers in the 70's
and 80's: a low-frequency controller that subjects the batteries to high
current discharge pulses results in greatly reduced capacity (precisely
as predicted by Peukert) and reduced cycle life compared to a
high-frequency controller (with bus caps) that subjects the batteries to
the average current instead.
Sounds like the peak repetitive current seen over a period of time is a
major factor in determining the usable capacity of a lead-acid battery.
But it may be more accurate to leave out the frequency part, since high
frequency switching simply allows for the use of smaller smoothing caps
(and the higher frequency does work better given the inductance value of
most DC motors? I don't know, I'm asking). The available capacity of
capacitors simply was not adequate in the 70's and 80's (even 90's) to
effectively smooth the current draw at low frequencies. This is one area
of technology that has advanced quite quickly while we spent all our
time at arcades...
Then again, with proper management of how the batteries are used (such
as rearranging the pack in real time to limit the peak current draw),
combined with how most cars are actually driven (most of their time in a
couple small ranges of speed), you can mostly avoid "hammering" anything
in the electrical system. If you can't, then there are always lots of 1+
Farad capacitors around these days. And they have phenomenal cycle
lifespans, so they should last way past the life of the vehicle *or* motor.
But I do agree that the whole peak current draw/average current draw
issue is a major consideration to keep in mind. Wouldn't want to go
murdering any batteries. One of the main points of such a setup is to
increase how long you can use your individual batteries (since you are
effectively discharging each one individually, and don't have to replace
the whole pack at the same time).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Listers,
A new set of rules for conversion classes (XS, MC, PS, and SC) are going
to go up on the NEDRA site (http://www.nedra.com) probably within the next
day or two. I strongly suggest you take the time to read these rules
carefully if you are a NEDRA member and are going to race a conversion as a
lot has changed. Also, if you were a record holder in SC or MC, you should
also read these new rules carefully.
Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> was the author of these detailed class
rules with the help of Roderick Wilde <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and Brian Hall
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>. So if you have any questions about how your car
will be classified, these are the guys to ask. They worked very hard to get
these rules written for this racing season.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Jan 2006 at 19:50, Mueller, Craig M wrote:
> It sounds like you have to get a new car from a mfg without the ICE
> installed, trailer it home and commence with the conversion.
I'm hardly an expert on this, so I encourage anyone who's done it to post.
However, from what I've read, insisting on a new glider pretty seriously
limits your candidates. Large auto companies have all the sales they need
or want and aren't interested in dealing even with small conversion
companies, much less with individuals. These days you pretty much can't
even buy an ICE car with accessories a la carte the way you used to; now you
get to choose from among 3 or 4 packages. Given that, it's hard to see how
you could get them to make the engine and gas tank optional.
>From what I've read, in the few cases in which automakers have supplied
gliders, they've applied standards and requirements similar to those they
use in dealing with other upfitters, such as van conversion operations and
truck and RV builders. It took years of Force production before Solectria
could convince GM to sell them Metro gliders - and then the US-spec Metro
went out of production a few years later. By that time Solectria's sales
had been killed by (from what I've heard) the cat-and-mouse games of GM and
Ford. Fleet and utility buyers stopped buying Forces, believing they could
get major-brand-supported EVs from the big guys instead.
There've been a few cases in which small-scale conversion operations have
been able to buy gliders, but AFAIK always from smaller auto companies. US
Electricar of Athol MA reportedly bought gliders from Renault and Fiat in
the late 1970s and early 1980s. More recently (maybe 10-15 years ago)
someone out west was able to import gliders from a car company in one of the
Eastern European countries (I don't recall which one) which had no US
presence and no dealers. Seems to me that Gary Flo (then) of Innevations
may have been involved with this, but my memory might be playing tricks on
me. Was anybody here connected with this deal?
Imagine the spares headache with a car never sold in the states! (If you've
ever owned a Jet van you don't have to tax your imagination very hard. ;-)
The other problem with this is that cars not currently being imported as
ICEs usually don't meet NHTSA standards.
Still, you might be able to do something similar. I suspect you'd have to
fib about your intentions, suggesting that you intended to go into serial
production and wanted to buy one glider as a prototype. Again, I stress
that I'm hardly an expert on this, but I suppose you might try (again) auto
manufacturers in the Eastern European countries, Russia, China, and perhaps
Thailand and Korea. Be prepared to spend a lot of money on overseas phone
calls, airplane tickets, and possibly translators and negotiators.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
You'll find a much more limited selection of caps which are have a long
life at high ripple currents AND affordable at the same time. You're
looking at absorbing tens or hundreds of amps of ripple in order to
smooth the battery current out, and the ESR must be extremely low-
similar to or lower than the battery- to be effective. Paralleling
multiple caps will do it too, but it does get back to big, expensive,
and a lot of parts to break.
I don't have a lot of info on the ripple current and reliability of the
farad caps sold for car stereos. Hard to say what they can or can't do.
Maxwell Ultracaps have spec'ed a whole new class of extremely high
capacity, high current caps. Very expensive though, and only come in
low voltage parts unless you get multiple in series.
Danny
Stefan Peters wrote:
Then again, with proper management of how the batteries are used (such
as rearranging the pack in real time to limit the peak current draw),
combined with how most cars are actually driven (most of their time in
a couple small ranges of speed), you can mostly avoid "hammering"
anything in the electrical system. If you can't, then there are always
lots of 1+ Farad capacitors around these days. And they have
phenomenal cycle lifespans, so they should last way past the life of
the vehicle *or* motor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OKA Gliders available for about $5K from
http://www.okaauto.com/
and he's got plenty of spare parts...
On 6 Jan 2006 at 19:50, Mueller, Craig M wrote:
> It sounds like you have to get a new car from a mfg
without the ICE
> installed, trailer it home and commence with the
conversion.
I'm hardly an expert on this, so I encourage anyone
who's done it to
post.
However, from what I've read, insisting on a new
glider pretty
seriously
limits your candidates. Large auto companies have all
the sales they
need
or want and aren't interested in dealing even with
small conversion
companies, much less with individuals. These days you
pretty much
can't
even buy an ICE car with accessories a la carte the
way you used to;
now you
get to choose from among 3 or 4 packages. Given that,
it's hard to see
how
you could get them to make the engine and gas tank
optional.
>From what I've read, in the few cases in which
automakers have
supplied
gliders, they've applied standards and requirements
similar to those
they
use in dealing with other upfitters, such as van
conversion operations
and
truck and RV builders. It took years of Force
production before
Solectria
could convince GM to sell them Metro gliders - and
then the US-spec
Metro
went out of production a few years later. By that
time Solectria's
sales
had been killed by (from what I've heard) the
cat-and-mouse games of GM
and
Ford. Fleet and utility buyers stopped buying Forces,
believing they
could
get major-brand-supported EVs from the big guys
instead.
There've been a few cases in which small-scale
conversion operations
have
been able to buy gliders, but AFAIK always from
smaller auto companies.
US
Electricar of Athol MA reportedly bought gliders from
Renault and Fiat
in
the late 1970s and early 1980s. More recently (maybe
10-15 years ago)
someone out west was able to import gliders from a car
company in one
of the
Eastern European countries (I don't recall which one)
which had no US
presence and no dealers. Seems to me that Gary Flo
(then) of
Innevations
may have been involved with this, but my memory might
be playing tricks
on
me. Was anybody here connected with this deal?
Imagine the spares headache with a car never sold in
the states! (If
you've
ever owned a Jet van you don't have to tax your
imagination very hard.
;-)
The other problem with this is that cars not currently
being imported
as
ICEs usually don't meet NHTSA standards.
Still, you might be able to do something similar. I
suspect you'd have
to
fib about your intentions, suggesting that you
intended to go into
serial
production and wanted to buy one glider as a
prototype. Again, I
stress
that I'm hardly an expert on this, but I suppose you
might try (again)
auto
manufacturers in the Eastern European countries,
Russia, China, and
perhaps
Thailand and Korea. Be prepared to spend a lot of
money on overseas
phone
calls, airplane tickets, and possibly translators and
negotiators.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while
you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how:
http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will
not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm
period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = =
__________________________________________
Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about.
Just $16.99/mo. or less.
dsl.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks for all the responses on the No-No's of an emeter. Most of them I
had seen before, but since I didn't have an e-meter I didn't collect them
all.
I still have a couple more questions specific to my application. I don't
currently have an accesory battery, just a DC-DC converter. The negative
side of my DC-DC is connected to my frame. The E-meter manual states that I
must connect pin one to both the negative side of my traction pack as well
as the negative supply for the E-meter. This of course connects the
negative side of my traction pack to the negative side of my DC-DC and my
frame. This sounds bad...
The manual offers two options. Use a seperate accesory battery and tie the
negative post to the negative of the traction pack without making any
connections to the frame or use a seperate DC-DC converter. I have both an
Aux battery I can throw in and a second DC-DC. The downside to using a
seperate battery is that I will need to charge it seperately, which is not a
big deal and the way that I ran my bike for quite a while, but I would
rather not do it if possible. I don't think that using a second DC-DC tied
to the traction pack is what the manual has in mind. It looks like they are
connecting a DC-DC to the aux battery to provide isolation. It doesn't seem
to me that I can run my second DC-DC off the traction pack and use it to
power the e-meter as this would mean that I would be tying the neg input to
the neg output on the DC-DC.
If I don't want an aux battery do I need to have a second DC-DC off the
first to keep things isolated from the frame?
thanks
damon
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny Miller wrote:
You'll find a much more limited selection of caps which are have a
long life at high ripple currents AND affordable at the same time.
You're looking at absorbing tens or hundreds of amps of ripple in
order to smooth the battery current out, and the ESR must be extremely
low- similar to or lower than the battery- to be effective.
Paralleling multiple caps will do it too, but it does get back to big,
expensive, and a lot of parts to break.
I don't have a lot of info on the ripple current and reliability of
the farad caps sold for car stereos. Hard to say what they can or
can't do.
Maxwell Ultracaps have spec'ed a whole new class of extremely high
capacity, high current caps. Very expensive though, and only come in
low voltage parts unless you get multiple in series.
Those Maxwell's are sweet, (58F!) but they can have a rather high ESR. I
only need 12V, am going to give a couple of those "audio application"
caps a whirl. Those are supposed to have a very low ESR, and made for
the 100Hz constant pulsing usage (think of all that bass, and some guys
are pushing almost 10kW from a couple of those buggers for years). The
good ones (competition rated) usually run $100-$150 each. You can get
no-names for under $50 (good for testing).
Given that I will be pulsing only 50A per battery to get 100A @ 48V
motor current with a 96V pack at half throttle (which is where most of
my driving is, and the same stress any PWM controller will dish out in
the same situation), I'm not sure that they will be needed. Only on-road
testing will tell just how much time is spent in that area of
heavy-current-per-battery, relatively inefficient low PAM output. But
I'll install caps on one of the two strings anyway, just to see what
difference it makes.
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--- Begin Message ---
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=8026763125
Here's a 1990 geo begging to be made electric.
If I didnt have an EV already I'd probably convert this baby.
torich1 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well he could start with the adapter plate here..$145
http://www.e-volks.com/catalog.0.html.0.html
And he can buy the motor here for 179$
http://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2005121701433549&item=6-936&catname=electric
I am sure a controller can be had for $300 OR MAYBE A LOT LESS...
Thats $625 add 6 heavy dudy 12 volt batterys for about $360 and you are
almost there with some help from you guys ..sounds possiable to me....$1000
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Photos
Got holiday prints? See all the ways to get quality prints in your hands ASAP.
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Pretty sure my post said "Must be 'purchased new.' Translation: no
home-built or conversion."
Dave wrote:
> * It has never been used as a nonelectric vehicle.
So where does that leave coversions?
Eric Poulsen wrote:
From the page:
What is a qualifying electric vehicle?
To be eligible for the tax credit, a vehicle must meet the following
requirements
* It must be powered primarily by an electric motor drawing current
from rechargeable batteries, fuel cells, or other portable sources
of electrical current.
* It must have at least four wheels and be manufactured primarily
for use on public streets, roads, and highways (vehicles
exclusively used on rail or rails do not qualify).
* It must meet all federal and state emissions requirements.
* It has never been used as a nonelectric vehicle.
* You must purchase the vehicle new and for your own use, not for
resale
* You must drive it mostly in the United States.
* Government agencies, tax exempt organizations, and foreign
entities are not eligible.
Must be "purchased new." Translation: no home-built or conversion.
Also, no from-scratch motorcycles (in theory easier than a
from-scratch car), as they don't have four wheels.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
According to the following page, only new EVs that "have never been
used as a non-electric vehicle" are eligible for the tax credit.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/tax_afv.shtml#ev
Does anybody have a defensible way of claiming the credit for a
conversion?
Cheers, Jay Donnaway
www.karmanneclectric.blogspot.com
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--- Begin Message ---
On Jan 6, 2006, at 11:52 PM, mike golub wrote:
OKA Gliders available for about $5K from
http://www.okaauto.com/
and he's got plenty of spare parts...
Interesting. The glider is called the OKA KIT, and the site says it's
only legal for turning into a NEV or LSV. It starts at $4995, with a
full interior but no transmission or engine.
As near as I can tell, they're not yet selling US-roadable cars. The
only ones I can find with a price are the OKA RACE, which is aimed at
rally and autocross, and the OKA KIT.
No crash testing yet?
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
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