EV Digest 5148
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: 1986 Toyota Pickup update/pictures
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Emoo
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Ca Smog and Hybrids
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) GM analysis of Prius, was: Hybrid efficiency
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Emoo
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: GM analysis of Prius, was: Hybrid efficiency
by Christopher Robison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Budget EV clutch/clutchless motor adapter solution
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Ken Trough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Low voltage AC conversion update and progress report 04/02/06.
by "Peter Perkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Budget EV clutch/clutchless motor adapter solution
by paul wiley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: White Zombie & Father Time-machines Together at the Portland Rod &
Custom Show
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: White Zombie & Father Time-machines Together at the Portland Rod &
Custom Show
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Regen settings, was Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
As my autoshop teacher used to say "A theoretical engine at 1 rpm emits
H20,CO2 and N2, as we get to a usable rpm we run out of time for
complete combustion and we get...." (something to that effect)
I have witnessed zero emmisions on my Mitsubishi truck. There are 2
parts to this
A) the machine is not sensitive enough for the Parts Per Billon coming
out the pipe.
B) the emmisions fall completely within the capabilities of the
catyletic converter to "finish" the combustion.
a Quick review of how the smog they measure is generated in an engine
HC - Hydrocarbons. Unburned fuel. Carborated vehicles had lots of
problems with this, Fuel injection has nearly eliminated it, Rich
mixtures destroy the cat so must be avoided at all costs.
CO - Carbon monoxide. Incomplete combustion on the way to CO2, to low
of octane, late timeing. High compression
NO - Nitrous Oxide(spelling). Combustion temperature has gotten hot
enough to aloow nitrogen to bond with oxygen, To lean, timing to
advanced. High Compression. EGR was created to fix this. a measured
amount of exhaust gas is recirculated and reduces combustion temp.
The new catyletic converters are called 3 way, they grab these 3
components and with the help of the catylist and some heat energy allow
conversion to H2O,CO2, and N2
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I wasn't planning on racing this truck nor go past
55mph...
--- Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Christopher Robison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > I could be wrong about this, and I bring it up
> mainly to
> > provoke discussion about it, but in my opinion if
> the two
> > pieces of l-channel bolted to the end are your
> sole means of
> > supporting the motor and reacting to torque, you
> may be in
> > for a surprise the first time you hit the throttle
> hard.
>
> I agree 100%. It looks like the motor can still
> twist, and when it
> does those braces will twist (attempt to rotate
> upward or downward),
> which will then either flex them where they bolt to
> the longitudinal
> bedframe rails, or will twist the rails like torsion
> bars.
>
> Extending the braces so that each can be secured to
> the endbell with two
> bolts rather than one *might* help, but would result
> in a bending moment
> being applied to the braces instead of (mostly)
> placing them in tension
> as the present arangement does.
>
> A better option might be to revise the attachment of
> the brackets to the
> rails such that there is no bending stress applied
> there (so that the
> brackets resist motor twisting purely by being
> placed in tension), but
> this would require revising the bracket geometry
> somewhat so that the
> brackets continue to support the end of the motor as
> well as keeping it
> from rotating.
>
> Finally, I didn't notice if the bedframe rails are
> attached to the
> chassis using the original motor mounts or not, but
> assuming the motor
> is attached to a tranny that still uses the original
> rubber mount(s), it
> would be a very good idea to support the motor via
> the original rubber
> motor mounts. If you don't, then your rigid
> bedframe rails/brackets
> must resist the entire motor/tranny torque on their
> own and are likely
> to fail fairly quickly no matter what you do.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not going to go dig up all the articles from which I've read that,
but in 20 seconds of googling I found this from a few days ago:
http://tinyurl.com/9a893
(The auto manufacturer representatives cited in this article admittedly
may not be as well informed as the folks in the Yahoo group.)
Toyota introduced the Prius in Japan for the 1997 model year. It's now
*nine years* later, and Toyota's spokesperson says (according to an AP
paraphrase) that they're "getting to the point where they're
profitable". They make money on them now, which is a change in status
of which I was not aware. I'm glad to be corrected, but to say that they
didn't spend more than they were making through the years is just not
realistic. And by Toyota's admission they have not yet recouped their
investment.
Most auto manufacturers lose money just selling new car designs for a
short while after release. Toyota was making more than just a new body
style, they were reinventing a transmission and combining two dissimilar
powerplants, and they were the first to do so, by three years. Of
*course* they lost money. Then in 2002 when production efficiencies had
improved and they were starting to break even, they started their
redesign, launched in 2004.
I never thought this was a downside to hybrids or the Prius at all. My
hat's off to Toyota. I've often used it as a conversational example of
*smart* decision-making. Making a plan and seeing it through in spite of
the short-term losses, even if "short term" is expressed in years. Few
companies seem to think long-term these days; this example shows Toyota
as an exception.
--chris
On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 17:13 -0800, Cor van de Water wrote:
> Chris wrote:
>
> > I also know that Toyota has been losing money on the Prius hand over fist.
>
> Can you please provide some evidence of that?
> Toyota is pretty proud of their revenue they make with the Prius
> and has increased production cautiously year over year, to stay
> on the black side, it is also in their official press releases
> that they are satisfied with the financial sitation of Prius
> production, so I would not expect they make a loss and continue
> to do so and introduce new Hybrid models that also will make a
> loss. That is not Toyota's strategy.
>
> I am afraid that you have listened to unreliable messengers.
> This issue was just discussed a few days ago on one of the Prius
> Yahoo groups, apparently there are misinformed people or trolls
> that do not like the Hybrid technology to succeed.
> As we all know, trolls as well as adversaries can be very
> persistent, but that does not make them right.
>
> If you have new info about the Prius, I like to read it.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Chris Robison
> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 12:18 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
>
>
> On Fri, February 3, 2006 1:05 pm, Neon John said:
> > This is where your intuition fails you. Let's consider the abstract
> > case of a black box. No matter what goes in the black box, nothing
> > but air and water comes out. It follows that if more stuff goes in
> > during one session than another, the output is the same - nothing.
>
> This conclusion is logical, but you have failed to present a convincing
> argument in support of the original premise. Burn gasoline, and it doesn't
> go away -- it turns into something else. Potentially several substances,
> none of which are good for you.
>
>
> > out but not during the FTC. WOT is only loosely regulated so there is
> > significant emissions during full power operation. The (correct)
> > logic is that the vehicle spends only a small amount of time at WOT
> > and so it's not worth controlling.
>
> Agreed.
>
>
> > If the feds continue with sillier and sillier standards, we're going
> > to get to pay for such expensive add-ons as cat and intake air
> > preheaters, phase change block warmers and other things that function
>
> Like the "silliness" of the standards that presented the public with the
> unacceptable burden of paying for the development of cars that crush
> during an accident instead of killing their occupants, this is a matter of
> opinion, and opinions change over time.
>
>
> > I'm sure Toyota's motivations were many and varied. I'm not at all
> > familiar with that company so I have to speculate. I imagine that the
> > hybrid had been under development for quite some time as a basic R&D
> > project. It developed to the point that it could be commercialized at
> > a time when Toyota management detected an opportunity. They're pretty
> > good at that. BTW, you do know, don't you, that Ford and Toyota did
> > joint development on the project. I saw the prototypes running around
> > the test track a good 5-6 years ago.
>
> I also know that Toyota has been losing money on the Prius hand over fist.
> What "opportunity" did they see when they decided to produce the Prius? An
> opportunity to lose millions of dollars producing unnecessarily complex
> cars to mitigate a problem that no longer existed?
>
>
> > There are several other ways of achieving the goals Toyota achieved
> > with their hybrid. A gas engine (Atkins or Otto) with a CVT is one. A
> > high speed diesel is another. Toyota apparently decided to make a car
> > with a driving experience as similar to conventional cars as possible.
>
> But what goal could they have had, if there is truth in what you've
> claimed, repeatedly now, that engines were already producing no emissions?
> None of these options solve the first-minute problem.
>
>
> >>
> >>If gas engines produce no emissions, I invite you to prove it to me by
> >>standing in a closed, non-ventilated garage with a brand new Chevy or
> >
> > I didn't realize you were impressed with stunts.
>
> No, I'm impressed with logical discourse, and the fact that you've chosen
> not to even attempt to respond to my analogy rationally and instead
> dismiss it by calling it a "stunt" does not impress me. The point that I
> was making is that the stuff that running automobiles produce does not
> support life. At the very least there's way too much of it in our
> atmosphere now ... and those instrument measurements I do trust.
>
> > Might I suggest a
> > more meaningful "test". It's pretty hard to get into the major OEMs'
> > emission testing facilities but there are others. Why don't you take
> > a trip to either the EPA's or CARB's facility and witness an FTC
> > cycle? You too can see the instruments (practically) zeroed out most
> > of the time. They use the same equipment as the OEMs, normally the
> > Horiba test suite. It's an interesting and impressive thing to watch.
>
> Honestly, all the instruments output in the world would not convince me
> that an engine's output contains no substances which have been considered
> biologically or environmentally harmful by the majority of the scientific
> community.
>
>
> > Sagan? You mean the publicity whore who'd say almost anything to get
> > attention and who was too proud to admit he was wrong ("nuclear
> > winter" for example)? Yeah, that Sagan. If he'd said that the sky
> > was blue I'd have had to go check before believing him.
>
> Another dodge. Whatever personal flaws Sagan may have had are irrelevant.
> Since you belittle the character of my example instead of the value of the
> point itself, I'll spell it out for you. Extraordinary claims require
> extraordinary proof. I don't care who made that statement, its meaning has
> undeniable merit. And that describes a continuum; a statement like yours
> requires proof beyond what I would accept from a set of instruments, no
> matter how expensive they are or how well their operators are paid. Indeed
> you're asking me to completely reevaluate my understanding of the nature
> of matter.
>
> Until I see the light, my argument stands. Hybrid vehicles produce "less
> emissions" than ICE cars of similar performance, because their electric
> motors allow them to run more efficiently so they use less fuel.
>
> --chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I would not stay in a locked garage with a car that reads zero
emmisions, it is still using up the oxygen and emmiting CO2, we just
don't track those as emmisions. One step furthur, replace those fuel
engines with 20 people, You will suffocate as fast.
15cfm/person is HVAC recommendation for stationary people, a minimum.
1liters = .035 CF
(3 liters * .035 CF/liter) * 3000rpm/4(rotations/intake) = 78.75 CFM
(guess avg rpm for test, probably to high)
78.75/15 = 5 people and about 3 times more co2 / cfm than human(from a
study in school) = about 15 people.
I guess we can't compare a battery, which is storage of energy NOT
storage of fuel. You would have to bring the power plant inside your
garage.
This made me think of the whole phrase "Hydrogen Fuel Cell electric
vehicle." Hydrogen is considerd an energy carrier because we transfer
energy with it by putting energy into creating it at the other end, but
we use it as a fuel, which increases the worlds CO2 output, the canery
in the garage still dies.
So we end up with CO2 emmisions at the point of generation AND at the
point of use.
Gas has most it's CO2 emmison at point of use and electricity has most
of it's at point of generation(assuming a mix of technologies).
I still just don't get it, Hydrogen Fuel cell looks like a loose loose
situation, The only benifit I can see is quick fill-ups and I fear that
they haven't dropped the other shoe yet, like laws to permit only
"certified" people to fill your car, And we get to pay them for the honour.
I am gonna dissagree with john that hybrids will neccesarrily become
performance only, I think they will become increaseingly depend on the
electric motor and baterries, then become "plug-in" , then "fuel
optional". To ease into the market while still obtaining economies of
scale and profits, in an ever-evolutionary way like car companies have
done for years. Terrified of major changes. (please, allow me to dream
electric dreams)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What if I got one of those motors from the surplus center and used a
harbor freight inverter?
When the surplus center says 9amps, do you think that is max, continous?
Average?
What I am getting at, is to use this
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91848
and an orbital
I couldn't figure out what they are talking about
30amp fuse if on 12V side would limit the inverter to 360W
30amp fuse on 110V side is 3300 watts so isn't going to protect devices?
so I checked the data sheet :
the product data sheet says
" fuse 30Amps Internal not user-serviceable" what a narrow PC board
trace?
700 watts is output power and at 115 that is 6 amps continuous 1800 peak
is 15 amp peak.
Is this a good match for the surplus center motor? if I add a 115V
10Amp breaker?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Engine Code:
Man, the Air resources board guy (who had an electric rabbit) and
the referee, and the DMV need education, I will look up the code and do
my best at my inspection.
I doesn't vary by county, does it? hybrids are allowed in the diamond
lane with only 1 person here (uh let me see, 8 on-ramps totaling about 1
mile, wohooo)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Feb 3, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
Chris wrote:
I also know that Toyota has been losing money on the Prius hand over
fist.
Can you please provide some evidence of that?
<snip>
If you have new info about the Prius, I like to read it.
The current issue of Wired Magazine has an article about GM's "chop
shop", where they tear down competitor's vehicles and figure out how
much they cost to make. GM's conclusion on the Prius is that there's
no way that Toyota is making money on it. They think it's an attempt
to make Toyota look technologically sophisticated and green.
<http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html>
Lots of interesting info in there - if you want to believe it. IMHO,
just because GM can't figure out how to make money building Priuses
doesn't mean that Toyota can't. The article also says that GM gave up
on making hybrids and decided to concentrate on fuel cells after the
Prius teardowns. That's a red flag to me, since I have a real hard
time believing that fuel cells will ever make automotive sense from an
energy or environmental standpoint. Maybe they're slandering the Prius
as another excuse for continuing the hydrogen boondoggle.
Then again, what do I know?
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 19:10:23 -0800, Jeff Shanab
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What if I got one of those motors from the surplus center and used a
>harbor freight inverter?
>
>When the surplus center says 9amps, do you think that is max, continous?
>Average?
This is a compound (series) motor so the rating is nominal. It'll
draw whatever current the load requires. Nine amps is probably the
max draw on which the motor won't overheat.
>
>What I am getting at, is to use this
>http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/Displayitem.taf?itemnumber=91848
>and an orbital
>
>I couldn't figure out what they are talking about
>
>30amp fuse if on 12V side would limit the inverter to 360W
>30amp fuse on 110V side is 3300 watts so isn't going to protect devices?
>
>so I checked the data sheet :
>
>the product data sheet says
>" fuse 30Amps Internal not user-serviceable" what a narrow PC board
>trace?
>
>700 watts is output power and at 115 that is 6 amps continuous 1800 peak
>is 15 amp peak.
A couple of thoughts. I haven't found HF manuals and specs to be
particularly accurate. I have a number of chicom inverters in that
power range. Several of them have multiple automotive ATC (blade
type) fuses soldered to the board. Many of these inverters contain 2
or more separate DC/DC stages to supply the necessary high voltage DC
to the 60 hz chopper. Typically, each stage has its own fuse(s). I
have a Vector 1kw inverter that actually has 4 DC/DC sections, all
operating in parallel.
>
>Is this a good match for the surplus center motor? if I add a 115V
>10Amp breaker?
It'll depend on how thick the grass is. The inverter should start the
motor OK. I run mine on a Vector 1500 watt inverter that Sam's Club
sells for $79 ($49 when I bought mine). It has a bargraph on the end
that indicates load. When I get into fairly thick grass, the bargraph
goes more or less full scale. The inverter has never tripped on
overload, though.
I guess you could try the HF one. If you overload it, no damage done,
as the protective circuit will trip immediately. I've looked at a
number of these "chicom universal design inverters" and the internal
circuitry differs only in minor details. I think that someone must do
a reference design that all the cheap chicom mfrs use. HF will let
you return the unit so if it can't carry the load, no harm done. The
Sam's Club one is always an option.
A single orbital isn't going to last long. If the motor pulls 9 amps,
the inverter will pull about 90 amps (good rule of thumb: the inverter
has a 12:120 = 10:1 ratio so multiply the output amps by 10 to get the
approx input amps.). 55/90 = ~0.6 hours or about 35 minutes.
My mower draws about 6 amps just sitting there fanning the air so
expect the draw to be at least 9 amps when the mower is working. BTW,
you might want to copy something I did to mine to reduce the losses.
The rear part of all rotary mower blades is kicked up to make somewhat
of a fan that helps blow the clippings out. This "fan blade" is
responsible for a lot of the windmill losses. I took a side grinder
and cut down this kick-up to about half. It still ejects grass just
fine but the idle current draw was reduced significantly. Next time I
have the blade off I'm going to cut some more. Be sure to balance the
blade after grinding. You can buy one of those funnel-shaped
balancers but I do as good a job balancing the blade on the edge of a
knife stuck in the center hole.
Something else I did was to change the bevel on the cutting edge to a
much shallower angle. This lets the blade slide through the grass
with less effort. The tradeoff is that the edge is weaker and will
nick easier. I don't have any rocks on my little lot and I pick up
the sticks first so I don't have any worry in that area.
After I ground the edge, I case-hardened it using some case-hardening
powder I got from the local welding shop. To use, one heats the metal
to a bright red, then sprinkles the powder on or dips the metal in the
powder. A layer sticks. Then the metal is heated again to bright red
and held there for a period of time. The longer the period, the
deeper the hardening. I did 15 minutes, followed by a quench and
anneal. The edge is VERY hard - a file won't cut it. I'll just have
to see how brittle it is and if it chips. So far, so good.
The case-hardening that this powder applies is very thin so each time
the blade is sharpened it must be case-hardened again. I think that
next time I'll rig up a kiln so I can keep the blade hot for several
hours.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another interesting juxtaposition of GM and Toyota:
http://www.globalexchange.org/war_peace_democracy/oil/1312.html
Toyota claimed early-mid 2003 that they had begun to make a small profit
on each Prius sold. So for a few months between then and when the above
article was written they were making baby steps on the way to recouping
their investment, until the 2004 3rd generation model was released.
Whether their profit claims then and now are true or a bluff to save
face, I think there's an interesting comparison made here between the
Japanese and American corporate mindsets.
--chris
On Fri, 2006-02-03 at 19:42 -0800, Doug Weathers wrote:
> On Feb 3, 2006, at 5:13 PM, Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> > Chris wrote:
> >
> >> I also know that Toyota has been losing money on the Prius hand over
> >> fist.
> >
> > Can you please provide some evidence of that?
>
> <snip>
>
> > If you have new info about the Prius, I like to read it.
>
> The current issue of Wired Magazine has an article about GM's "chop
> shop", where they tear down competitor's vehicles and figure out how
> much they cost to make. GM's conclusion on the Prius is that there's
> no way that Toyota is making money on it. They think it's an attempt
> to make Toyota look technologically sophisticated and green.
>
> <http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.02/teardown.html>
>
> Lots of interesting info in there - if you want to believe it. IMHO,
> just because GM can't figure out how to make money building Priuses
> doesn't mean that Toyota can't. The article also says that GM gave up
> on making hybrids and decided to concentrate on fuel cells after the
> Prius teardowns. That's a red flag to me, since I have a real hard
> time believing that fuel cells will ever make automotive sense from an
> energy or environmental standpoint. Maybe they're slandering the Prius
> as another excuse for continuing the hydrogen boondoggle.
>
> Then again, what do I know?
>
>
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> --
> Doug Weathers
> Bend, OR, USA
> <http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dana Havranek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Does stock linkage usually work with them?
Yes, most of the time. They are generally a little thicker than a flywheel,
clutch combo. Sometimes you have to space out the motor or seek out a thiner
throwout bearing.
Paul
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: paul wiley
> In the motor adapter/clutch-clutchless discussion, Has anyone looked at the
> "ram
> Coupler" for a solution? These things rock on a dirt track. Positive lockup
> but
> a slipper cone for pulling away. Down side? no ring gear for a starter for
> the
> ICE. Up side? Simple operation, light, small and lends itself well to the
> electric motor world. A builder could use a motor adapter and just bolt it in
> place of the clutch/flywheel assy, or buy a blank and have a machine shop
> mount
> it to your motor shaft.
>
> Simple operation is....pedal up=positive lock up, pedal halfway down=neutral,
> pedal on the floor=slipper cone spooling up input shaft/car starting to role.
> Here is just one site that a google search turned up.
> http://www.ramclutches.com/zen-cart/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=2
> paul
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Autos. Looking for a sweet ride? Get pricing, reviews, & more on new
> and
> used cars.
>
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think that the byproducts of pure combustion are only CO2 and H2O.
And if it is true what John alludes to, that IC engines can be made to
run with near perfect combustion then all the arguments about emissions
becomes moot.
Not at all. The issue is the carbon emissions and their contribution to
the global warming crisis.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dear Members
Some of you will know I am doing a low cost, low voltage DC to AC upgrade at
present. (New information and progress report is at the bottom of this mail)
I will soon be running a 96v 450A Zapi 3phase ac controller with regen
and a 96v 3phase 12kw con rated induction motor.
The motor and controller cost me £2000 brand new.
I am lucky enough to own a pack of 200Ah TS cells and can report good life
and performance in the 2+ years I have had them.
A few links for interest are here.
http://www.electrofit-zapi.com/hfacinverters.htm
www.solarvan.co.uk
The motor came from Best Motors in Italy.
http://www.bestmotor.it/frameset_ei.html
They do not list AC motors on the site, but do supply them to order and
spec.
Zapi only supply a controller with a motor, as they require matching. That's
why I ended up with an Italian motor as well.
Curtis operate the same policy I think. You will be lucky if they sell you a
controller without a motor.
I went for the Zapi controller as it allowed a higher voltage 96v instead of
the curtis 80v.
A couple of pics of the motor/controller versus my old 120v 400A curtis
stuff are here, as are motor spec drawing, motor torque voltage curves and
Zapi AC controller manual.
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac017.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac021.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/bestmotor.pdf
www.solarvan.co.uk/ac3manual.pdf
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-001F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-002F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-003F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-004F.jpg
www.solarvan.co.uk/MVC-005F.jpg
Hope to get upgrade finished by 010406
New for 04/02/06 are ten more pictures of my current progress.
They are at www.solarvan.co.uk/ac01.jpg to www.solarvan.co.uk/ac10.jpg
inclusive. Just change the number to get the other pictures. They are about
350kb each to give full detail.
My TS Cells are now contained in a false floor battery and insulation layer
cake inside the vehicle. They are securely strapped down with that 12mm
300kg breaking strain nylon packing tape, tensioned and crimped, two straps
per cell to about 100kg each. I have a full set of crimping, tensioning
tools, crimps and miles of tape if anyone wants to borrow it in UK. It was
excellent for securing and compressing cells. Fits perefectly into slots in
TS cells.
Basically the floor is raised about 6 inches now.
It's layered as follows.
1st layer, onto original van metal floor, 25mm Kingspan silvered insulation.
2nd layer, 9mm plywood sheet drilled and bolted through insulation and metal
vehicle floor, drilled and fitted with 12mm strapping before placing in
vehicle.
3rd layer, 28x200ah TS Cells laid out as you see, and securely strapped
down, with white electric blanket heating wire underneath all cells to keep
them warm.
Note, sides also filled with blocks of Kingspan insulation to make a sealed
compartment.
4th layer, sheet of 2mm ultra lightweight compressible foam to seal gaps
between edges and top sheet of thermo insulation, and to provide electrical
insulation between silvered side of thermo insulation and cells. Well you
never know, a loose wire can occur!
5th layer, another sheet of 25mm Kingspan silvered insulation.
6th layer, a sheet of 12mm plywood to provide load flooring, bolted through
layers to vehicle metal body.
7th layer, Carpet! Not yet fitted as you see.
I was happy to sacrifice some load space to allow the secure and insulated
fitting of the most expensive item, the battery pack!
The under cell mains powered heating is thermostat controlled, and shuts off
when cells reach 25C.
I have left provision for forced air ventilation through cells if required,
but I will monitor pack temp and see if I actually need to fit this!
The ambient temp is quite low here in Northern England, I don't envisage
overheating will be a major problem.
The underseat electronics compartment is coming along well. It's still wires
all over the place at the moment, but I'm pretty pleased with progress.
The AC motor is now in situ underneath the vehicle on a very secure mild
steel mounting as you can see.
My ETA of 01/04/06 looks quite acheivable at present.
I will update my website when it's finally done.
Regards
Peter Perkins.
Chilly in the UK!
--
No virus found in this outgoing message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 267.15.0/249 - Release Date: 02/02/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roger Stockton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: paul wiley wrote:
> In the motor adapter/clutch-clutchless discussion, Has
> anyone looked at the "ram Coupler" for a solution?
>I have to think that this device really doesn't merit consideration in a
>thread with "budget EV" in the subject line
>It looks like this thing goes for $500, and essentially replaces the hub
>normally used in a conversion as well as the flywheel/clutch/pressure
>plate. Now, one does have to buy the hub when doing a conversion, but
>the flywheel is typically already present (free), and the clutch/presure
>plate from the displaced ICE may also be reusable (free), so $500 for a
>ram coupler instead of perhaps $200-250 for a hub (prices from
>http://www.evparts.com) doesn't seem to be a really good deal.
Geez Roger, never shop a swap meet?
>A quick peek at suggests that even if one
>were unable to reuse the existing clutch and pressure plate, or wanted
>to upgrade to skookum performance parts (though this is not really in
>keeping with the "budget" nature of the discussion), it would cost about
>$150-200 for a high performance pressure plate and $140-165 for a high
>performance sprung hub disc, bringing the cost of a high-performance
>clutch type Metro (in keeping with the "budget" subject line)conversion
>within about $50 of the cost of one using the ram coupler. A budget EV
>would probably make do with a new stock level clutch and plate, which
>runs about $125 complete for a Turbo Metro version including throwout
>and pilot bearings (e.g.)
Yes true. But IF you want a positive lock up, then a clutch disc isnt going
to giv that to you. period. I
>A few things seem to go against the use of the ram coupler in a street
.conversion:
>-. it is not recommended to use a solid hub clutch disc in place of a
>sprung hub one, and the ram coupler is essentially a solid hub type
>coupling
You must give up a few things to gain some things. It is the ZEN. I dont think
that having a solid hub in an EV is that great of a loss.
>- the ram coupler is recommended for *non-shifting* applications; so it
>could be acceptable if one only used the coupler as an emergency
>mechanical disconnect, but would not be a good choice if one wanted to
>shift gears regularly (as would be expected in a budget conversion since
>the multi-speed tranny is used to allow use of a cheaper, less powerful
>controller)
After the first few harsh engagements, The leading edges of the splines wear
in and it isnt bad at all. It feels like a two stage racing clutch.
>- the odd pedal control of the ram coupler might preclude it
>suitability as an emergency disconnect since in an emergency one's
>instinctive reaction will be to mash the clutch pedal to the floor,
>however, this will engage the cone clutch instead of disconnecting the
>motor from the drivetrain. This might be worked around by limiting the
>clutch linkage such that with the pedal mashed to the floor the best one
>can do is get the ram coupler into its neutral position.
There is a learning curve here as well, but isnt there one in driving an EV
anyway? There are many ways around this, a quick search of the net turned up
several places that make different pedal assys that preclude this. You could
however remove the lining and put in a bolt for a pedal stop. With the EV and
the controller you should have good low speed capabilites anyway.
>The lower inertia of the ram coupler and its positive lockup might make
>it attractive for racers, but not if they retain a tranny since shifting
>will be impaired (not prevented, necessarily, but slowed).
I dont agree. Shifting an EV isnt the same as a racing car. It is not like you
doing it the same or even more. Most cars that run these shift at least once.
If your using a motor that has enough torque to spin the clutch disk under the
cover, then you have enough power not to shift constantly.
Paul
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The first link comes up with an animation with puffs of white smoke coming
out from under the rear bumper. That is a rather odd behavior for an EV.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: White Zombie & Father Time-machines Together at the Portland Rod &
Custom Show
> Hello to All,
>
> Wow, 2006 is really shaping up to be quite busy for us at Plasma Boy
> Racing! The year's excitement starts out in just two weeks, when Father
> Time and I display our racing electrics at the prestigious Portland Rod
> & Custom Show. Both White Zombie and Blue Meanie have been shown in the
> original Portland Roadster Show in years past, and the hi pro EVs
> created quite a buzz. A few years back, this spin-off show was started,
> and today it's one of the biggest hot rod shows on the west coast.
>
> J.N Foods, the folks Father Time built the blue Legend electric car for,
> are hosting the booth and have invited us to bring White Zombie and
> display it along-side the Legend car and one of FT's electric drag
> motorcycles. You can catch a glimpse of the Legend car here:
>
> <http://www.jnfoods.com/>
>
> <http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=build_team_vehicles>
>
> The details for this show can be found here:
>
> <http://www.hotrodshows.com/prcs.html>\
>
>
> This should be a real hoot, and it will be a great showcase for our hi
> pro electrics. 10s of thousands will attend this show, so the EV
> exposure will be huge. I can hardly wait to see the reaction of
> hotrodders when they see '12.151 @ 106.25 mph' posted next to WZ and
> watch it on video blow off muscle car after muscle car! We plan on
> promoting NEDRA EVents, daily EVs as alternatives to the foreign oil
> dependent gas car, and of course, the fun of building and driving a
> muscular electric hotrod on the streets!
>
> Maybe I should sent a personal email to President Bush and invite him to
> see what patriotic Americans have been building in their backyards?
> That'd make a pretty good photo-op, the president doing a burn-out in
> White Zombie...or, dressed in leathers on Father Time's electric drag
bike!
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
> http://plasmaboyracing.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I meant that in light of some previous posts where CO2 was or was
not considered a regulated/harmful emission. Certainly its not the most
dangerous. But certainly it affects the environment. I think my misstated
point was that if IC engines were made to be 100% efficient the so called
harmful emissions (other than H2O) would be gone and the only thing left
would be the CO2 , whose deleterious effects to the environment can be
debated all day long. I still wouldn't want to be stuck in a garage with a
car making pure CO2 and water.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ken Trough
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 7:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Hybrid efficiency, was: Increasing Range
> I think that the byproducts of pure combustion are only CO2 and H2O.
> And if it is true what John alludes to, that IC engines can be made to
> run with near perfect combustion then all the arguments about emissions
> becomes moot.
Not at all. The issue is the carbon emissions and their contribution to
the global warming crisis.
-Ken Trough
V is for Voltage
http://visforvoltage.com
AIM/YM - ktrough
FAX/voice message - 206-339-VOLT (8658)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That must be like the speaker in the tailpipe to make the vroom vroom
sounds. He must have a smoke machine in the trunk :-D
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 6:22 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: White Zombie & Father Time-machines Together at the
Portland Rod & Custom Show
The first link comes up with an animation with puffs of white smoke coming
out from under the rear bumper. That is a rather odd behavior for an EV.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Wayland" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 7:45 AM
Subject: White Zombie & Father Time-machines Together at the Portland Rod &
Custom Show
> Hello to All,
>
> Wow, 2006 is really shaping up to be quite busy for us at Plasma Boy
> Racing! The year's excitement starts out in just two weeks, when Father
> Time and I display our racing electrics at the prestigious Portland Rod
> & Custom Show. Both White Zombie and Blue Meanie have been shown in the
> original Portland Roadster Show in years past, and the hi pro EVs
> created quite a buzz. A few years back, this spin-off show was started,
> and today it's one of the biggest hot rod shows on the west coast.
>
> J.N Foods, the folks Father Time built the blue Legend electric car for,
> are hosting the booth and have invited us to bring White Zombie and
> display it along-side the Legend car and one of FT's electric drag
> motorcycles. You can catch a glimpse of the Legend car here:
>
> <http://www.jnfoods.com/>
>
> <http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=build_team_vehicles>
>
> The details for this show can be found here:
>
> <http://www.hotrodshows.com/prcs.html>\
>
>
> This should be a real hoot, and it will be a great showcase for our hi
> pro electrics. 10s of thousands will attend this show, so the EV
> exposure will be huge. I can hardly wait to see the reaction of
> hotrodders when they see '12.151 @ 106.25 mph' posted next to WZ and
> watch it on video blow off muscle car after muscle car! We plan on
> promoting NEDRA EVents, daily EVs as alternatives to the foreign oil
> dependent gas car, and of course, the fun of building and driving a
> muscular electric hotrod on the streets!
>
> Maybe I should sent a personal email to President Bush and invite him to
> see what patriotic Americans have been building in their backyards?
> That'd make a pretty good photo-op, the president doing a burn-out in
> White Zombie...or, dressed in leathers on Father Time's electric drag
bike!
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
> http://plasmaboyracing.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While rear wheel brake-out is a bad thing, I do not think you
can lock up a wheel with regen, as the regen will
completely cut out as soon as the wheel stops spinning, so
there is automatically an ABS function on regen.
My S-10 US Electricar has a configurable controller and I
have been experimenting with different regen patterns over
the past week.
Initially the regen was set way too steep.
I have made emergency stops that caused an axle-crunching
amount of inverse motor torque and the regen often pooped
out because of reaching its limits even before I reached
the area where the mechanical brakes caught on.
This caused a very unpleasant braking experience with an
area in the "middle" of the brake travel where no brake
action was present.
Even scarier were the times that I took off with freshly
charged batteries and had to brake sharply, only to find
that the almost full batteries could not take the regen
current, so the voltage rose to astronomically high levels
(over 420V) and the controller reported an overvoltage
condition and shut down (dropped the contactors).
So, I reprogrammed the regen profile to be less steep and
flatten out at a lower level, so now the current rises
more gradually and the electronic brake overlaps the
mechanical brake, as well as the current does not cause
my batteries to go to unhealthy environments, causing
me to make an emergency stop to park and restart.
I still can get over 100A at 370V into my batteries
occasionally and I feel that this 37kWatt of electric
brake is enough to slow me down in all but the emergency
stops.
For the latter I have vacuum assisted brakes.
NOTE that my batteries have a pretty good life regarding
the fact that they never need to deliver more than 200A
at about 300V, so this is close to 60kW to the motor.
For my batteries this is a 2C discharge current and it
only occurs during hard accels. Normal current is under
100A, typical 80-90A at 320V for 65 MPH, which means
that the 50kW motor is at half-load and my truck uses
approx 400Wh per mile.
It also jives with my 12 kWh re-charge for my normal
23 miles commute, with charger and battery inefficiencies
taken into account.
To get back on topic:
Make sure you measure how much current your regen does
supply to your batteries.
If they are spec'ed to be charged with 40A continuous
(like mine) then be very careful if your regen can
supply more than twice this current while your batteries
are still full.
(I have disabled regen for the first few percent of discharge
and have not had the overvoltage fault).
It may depend on your situation how you configure your regen,
for example if you live on the top of a large hill you may
want to do something else than when you live in a flat area.
You may even not charge 100% all the time, only to equalize,
and let your regen top your batteries off.
As always, YMMV but you better limit the regen to below the
power you can generate when accelerating, easier to regain
control when you are taking off too fast then when you are
braking hard.
Drive safely,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2006 5:07 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Regen settings, was Re: E-Volks Geo Metro Conversion
> Reminds me how much I wish Ford put more regen in the Ranger! Does anyone
know
> how I can get the controller reprogrammed?
>
Might be a bad idea. If I recall, the Ranger has rear wheel drive. If
you were to use too much regen you could lock up the rear wheels which
would be extremely bad. Ford probably limited it thinking "what about
wet roads, what about snow"?
Even in the Prizm you have issues of brake balance.
Chris
--- End Message ---
