EV Digest 5171
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Anyone else been spammmed RE: LiPo? New co. in China?
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Changing Subject Lines
by Mike Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Fwd: re: UHMW in heater core
by "Chris Robison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Used to be/Was/Could be again: (RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go
Lithium!!!)
by "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) re: UHMW in heater core
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Vibration Isolation (again)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: C?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: EV filled day!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fwd: re: UHMW in heater core
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: ISOTOP power components
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: EV filled day!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Busted in Blue Meanie!
by "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: What an EV filled day!
by Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV filled day!
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
A lot of spammers have decided that you can't sell giant lists of random
email addresses to clients. If someone is going to pay for advertising
(even spam based) they expect "targeted" marketing. So now the robots
that crawl the web looking for email addresses to harvest also look at
the content of the website and drop the email address into a category.
These categories are not very specific, (the idea is to get the lists as
big as possible) so simple keywords like "electric" gets you dropped
into a mailing list "of thousands of electrical distributors"
AustinEV's information address gets dozens of spam messages hawking
electric fork lifts, motors, electrical cabinets, wire and the like.
When I contacted one (US based) company they said they couldn't be
spamming becuase they purchased a email "marketing" package that said
all of its included mailing lists were permission based. I pointed out
our address was located only on websites, and we weren't remotely
interested in electric products and requested removal of our address.
They seemed nice but naive and after 10 days passed and they failed to
comply with my removal request I passed the compliant to their ISP, who
terminated their account. They weren't hard core spammers, so I felt a
little bad.
Most spammers are harder to track down (or are in other countries, we
get a lot of China salespeople asking if we would like to be their
distributor for scooters, welders and electrical supplies) so the rules
are still the same as for any antispam. Don't post to mailing lists
using email addresses you can't afford to have spammed. Don't post your
email to websites unless you conceal it from the robots, either by
adding a human removal block ( ie mfarver_NOSPAM_AT_mindbent.org) which
people can figure out, but most spammers don't (for some reason). Or
(less good) by making your email address an image of the text.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As a followup to changing subject lines when the subject changes...
The downside to changing subject lines it that email clients (like
gmail, for example) that group conversations can't handle that. Even
adding a "RE:" at the begining can screw them up. This makes it a lot
harder to follow the flow of discussion and I will often miss what
someone has to say on a subject because they aren't grouped into the
thread as they have changed the subject line.
So change it when it needs changing, but not unless?
My $0.02,
Mike
On 2/13/06, Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Just a reminder: when you take off on a tangent from a discussion
> thread, change the subject line to relfect this, possibly adding
> (WAS...whatever) after the new subject. Probably a lot of people
> skip posts that don't interest them. When the content wanders far
> afield, they may miss posts they WOULD like to read, or open ones
> they don't care about. For example, I want to keep following
> anytthing about the Monster Garage episode, but I really don't care
> about lithium batteries in scooters.
>
> Shari Prange
> Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
> http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, February 13, 2006 12:15 pm, Lee Hart said:
> A ceramic heating element shouldn't exceed 200-250 deg.C. even if the
> airflow is blocked. This says you should not have any thermoplastics in
This is a **LOT** higher than I'd been planning on -- 250C is 482F, I'd
been told I could expect around 180F, similar to an automotive core. Thank
you for telling me this; I will now probably have to completely start over
and redesign my heater core. Better now than after I'd finished it. The
trouble is I can't find this kind of information ANYWHERE. I searched for
hours trying to find a website that would actually provide the terminal
temperature for a 120V PTC wafer at a given voltage assuming no airflow,
and my search turned up nothing.
> Each element is *NOT* a resistor! Changing the voltage has relatively
> little effect on the heat produced. More voltage just makes it heat up a
> little, which causes its resistance to go up a lot. This cuts back the
> power a lot. Thus, they tend to self-stabilize at a particular
> temperature, regardless of the applied voltage. Thus, series and
> parallel switching or PWM modulation is not effective for controlling
> the amount of heat.
Even at extremely low duty cycle, you disagree that PWM would effectively
reduce output? Or is it just that at very low temperatures, the elements
would draw unrealistically high currents during the "on" periods? I'd
wanted to control output via PWM; I may have to drop that plan as well.
--chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What you failed to realise Myles... is that you need a temp sensor per every
few cells, regardless of voltage, it's a temperature thing. Not a voltage
thing.
The V28 Lion pack from Millwaukee Tools, has a temp sensor on every other
cell and voltage pro on each cell. Then... it has a 150 amp pair of FETS
protecting it from over current on the discharge, and a inteligent charger
comm line that backs to charger power down if it needs to. Plus I belive
there is a cell by cell equalization resistor. That's a LOT of stuff in a
small package, Plus gas gage LEDs and button.
The Mg Car had 84 in series and 32 in parallel. And a temp sensor on every
other battery.
They in effect had a monitor on ALL the cells when under charge.
So... you need to define what the monitors are doing....It's not nearley as
simple as you make out.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Myles Twete" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> Rich mentioned:
>
> > Lion has to be protected from shorts, over charging and thermal abuse.
> > Without this.. you will kill them. And maybe get hurt also.
> > So....the level if BMS and the depth that you have to go to have a good
> > support of each cell is close to a sensor per cell.
> > That's a LOT of equipment when you have 2,688 Cells to monitor.
>
> Surely these cells weren't all in series.
> What was their config?
>
> You would need far less than 1 monitor per cell if these batteries were
> connected in buddy pairs---something that is just fine to do with Lithium
> batts.
> With 2700 cells, you could have a 100S27P config for nom. 370v.
> Configured as 100 series sets of 27 buddies, you'd need 27 monitors.
>
> And that ain' so many monitors after all is it?
>
> -Myles Twete, Portland, Or.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
Could you or someone else comment on Hawker AeroBatteries.
What they are and what technology makes them so "effecient"
or desirable to you?
I'm just curious as to what they are that makes them so
attractive!
I've grown awfully fond of the Hawker AeroBatteries that
reside in White Zombie! A high voltage pack of the feisty orange
batteries would sure look cool against the car's violet pearl over royal
blue paint, and 100 lbs. more of lead would possibly bump the car's
range to around 30 miles per charge...336V @ 1000 amps would be fun,
too! I digress....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich can you tell us how many AH per charger? Would you say a 64ah pack at
28vdc might be practical now? Something for a scooter. I can make a 17 ah
pack from lead acid BB batteries using 2 17 ah batteries at 24v. If I could
fit 64ah at 24vdc into a Rad to Go it would be sweet. Can it be practically
done? The Rad to Go uses two 17 ah batteries on their sides. There is
plenty of room in a scooter like the Rad to GO or the GoPed, plus the
battery compartment could be spacered up a bit if needed. With this battery
we could approach a 30 mile range using the stock configuration. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:25 AM
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
The Lions packs are from Millwaukee Tools.
The Cells are from Molicell in BC.
John did not tell me were they came from, I had to guess and haggle it out
of him, and on dissassembly it was obvious.
I have great respect for these cells and the efforts that Millwaukee tool
had to go through to get a system that works with them. There is a LOT of
brains in the Cell pack and in the charger. If you look at the photo from
Philille Borges post you will see a potted black blob that has a LOT of
brains in it.
My Guess....Is it has the Texas Instruments LION protection chip set
and
the gas gage chip. I might learn more later.. but this is getting close to
betraying a Good Team memebers confidence. I won't be publishing any
circuits schematics for sure. All the rest of the information is left up
to
the Lister to find from the TI site and the Molicell site.
Lion has to be protected from shorts, over charging and thermal abuse.
Without this.. you will kill them. And maybe get hurt also. So....the
level
if BMS and the depth that you have to go to have a good support of each
cell
is close to a sensor per cell. That's a LOT of equipment when you have
2,688
Cells to monitor. As the Mg car did.
We had to total tear down the battery pack and charge every module in
it's seprate charger.. and we had 210 chargers. This makes this kind of
pack
and the service of it totally unpratical for a Street EV. You need at
least
3 guys and 4 hours to pull a charge cycle off. We did it once and there
were no cameras on us when we did it for Real.
In the next coulpe of years I expect as a Charger and now also a BMS
designer... I will get Very good at doing all the above foot work....in
designing my own version that can be Series charged with a single very
high
power charger.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:08 PM
Subject: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
Okay Rich,
Could you please tell us all just for curiosity (and bookmarking sake)
Where you got the Lions and what the cons are against them or
Why you said,
"Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
needed."
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Rich Rudman
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:34 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
I could bring one of my V28 lions.. should you wish to play with 28
volts and 100 amps.
I have 4, 2 came with my Combi Kit... and two followed me home.
2 came home with scorch marks on them. One has been diassected... I
learned a LOT...
Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
needed.
Rich Rudman
Madman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> So... you need to define what the monitors are doing....It's
> not nearley as simple as you make out.
I see.
As Emily Litella (Gilda Radner) used to say on SNL: "Never mind".
I'm used to paralleling small 145mah Kokams on my glider.
And contrary to your experience, it is simple as pie.
With Kokam-style Lithiums I'd expect a simpler thermal sensing arrangement
could suffice...but then, that's not what you used, so, never mind.
-Myles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I worry a lot about depending on adhesives to mount a part like this.
> The automotive environment is very hostile, and a heating element just
> makes it worse. I'd design it so the heating element is still solidly
> mounted even if the adhesive failed entirely. Cut or machine the FR4,
> phenolic, or bakelite to hold the heating element in place without any
> adhesives. Only use sealant for gap filling; not physical mounting.
>
I'm planning on building my frame so the cores are retained, but I'd like to
use some fleixble
product as a gasket and vibration damper. Here's my attempt at ASCII art
showing a cutaway view;
aaaa aaaa
aaaa aaaa
bbxhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhxbb
bbxhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhxbb
cccc cccc
cccc cccc
a, b and c represent 3 layers of the phenolic resin board.
h represents the heater core
x represents the bonding agent
Layers a and c would overlap the heater cores to physically retain then, but at
a minimum to
minimize air flow restriction restriction. In my car the air would flow down
through the core. The
bonding agent would be right up against the heater core so would have to handle
the 250C
temperature. I also have to make some provision fo the wiring.
Thanks
Dave Cover
"WAR - It doesnt matter who is right only who is left." Dean on Clarks Garage
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Howdy all,
In helping a buddy with motor isolation we cannot use the original engine
mounts (long story). With a cylindrical motor (like a Warp 11") would
lining the motor strap with 1/4" rubber work as decent vibration isolation?
We would also use a torque bar as well.
thanks
Don
Victoria, BC, Canada
See the New Beetle EV Conversion Web Site at
www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's a sorta fuzzy term, but basically:
C or 1C means to drain the entire capacity of the battery in one hour.
10C is ten times the 1C current i.e. draining the battery in about 5-6
minutes.
C5 (notice number AFTER the letter) means to drain the capacity in 5
hours, or a current roughly 1/5 of C
The fuzzy bit comes in because batteries don't have the same total AHr
capacity at 10C as they do at C10. So does C mean 220 Amps if you have a
220 AHr battery (rated at the 20 hour rate) or does it mean the maximum
current you can actually get out of it continuously for one hour, perhaps
145 amps?
I've seen people use it both ways.
So to recap:
'number' before C means a current that equals that number times the AHr
capacity of the battery.
'number' after C means a current that equals the AHr capacity divided
by that number. I.e. draining the battery over 'number' hours.
> Hi all,
>
> Here's a noob sort of question, but I don't know much about batteries...
>
> What does the C rating mean? For example, 30C or 100C for the A123's?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mike
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey good Subject line..so I just hijacked it abit and started my.
Aside from the chargers and R&D... I got some good EV grining in this
weekend also. We have My '85 Fiero back on line, I have 15 Blue Orbs in it
so far... shooting for 25 on this pass and maybe 30 if I get lucky.
It's always good to get a upgrade done and light it up and drive it out the
shop door. I have 9 up front and 6 at this time in the back. The back can
hold 16 to 19 batteries all by itself. The up grade is..Errr... umm using
something besides gravity and mangled sheet metal to hold the batteries in.
There are now nice welded aluminum brackets and a stout bolt down plate to
bolt the Orbs to. The twin 3/8 holes in each Orb makes holding them down
easy...8 inch carriage bolts and 2 inch flat washers, and that's it.
The mystery was why was the Zilla crapping out? blip throttle, and then it
flashes a Fault...shuts down but does not post a digital error code...
Zillas normally tell you where it hurts how much and what Doctor to call
when they feel ill. Any ways.. I have to call Ot, or think clearly while
looking at the wiring.. it's gotta be obvious.
When it did run... in between key on sequences.. it ripped!!! it's amazing
what 2 more batteries do for the feel of power on two 8s in series...24 more
volts feels like %50 increase in OmmmP! Tire spin is now part of the fun,
and with 320 lbs of lead up front it now turns...instead of plows.. The
front end got nasty light without some counter weight up in front of my
toes.
We still don't know where the tranny breaks... but I am sure we will find
it before the summer is out.
So I have two Evs on line and ready for abuse.
The cold weather is on it's way back by Friday... Cold and lead don't get
along very well. Sigh!!! We need to get some range number on Her. So.. I
need to cycle the batteries up to full snuff. I will be installing Mk2B regs
as needed all week. So.. we can get all the lead to pull.
Mark 3 Digi Regs should be here in hand this week. Oh Boy.... I am now
putting the Micro into Manzanita Micro... It's been a few years since I had
to program stuff for shipment. But I am in it deeeeep this time. All my
old laptops are now getting the dust off them, and being used to monitor and
program Regs and log data. Clearly the Fiero will have Digi Reg as soon as I
dare put them into service.
Gotta go make stuff happen....
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK... the packs are 3 amp hours each at 28 volts,
Umm that's 22 Lion V28 packs.
OK... each pack lists for $150 That's $3300 for your scooter's pack.
I don't have that kind of cash for a small EV. That out buy me A LOT of
Optimas....
Look at that cash for the return... not a good value I contend.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> Rich can you tell us how many AH per charger? Would you say a 64ah pack
at
> 28vdc might be practical now? Something for a scooter. I can make a 17
ah
> pack from lead acid BB batteries using 2 17 ah batteries at 24v. If I
could
> fit 64ah at 24vdc into a Rad to Go it would be sweet. Can it be
practically
> done? The Rad to Go uses two 17 ah batteries on their sides. There is
> plenty of room in a scooter like the Rad to GO or the GoPed, plus the
> battery compartment could be spacered up a bit if needed. With this
battery
> we could approach a 30 mile range using the stock configuration. Lawrence
> Rhodes.....
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:25 AM
> Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
>
>
> > The Lions packs are from Millwaukee Tools.
> > The Cells are from Molicell in BC.
> > John did not tell me were they came from, I had to guess and haggle it
out
> > of him, and on dissassembly it was obvious.
> > I have great respect for these cells and the efforts that Millwaukee
tool
> > had to go through to get a system that works with them. There is a LOT
of
> > brains in the Cell pack and in the charger. If you look at the photo
from
> > Philille Borges post you will see a potted black blob that has a LOT of
> > brains in it.
> > My Guess....Is it has the Texas Instruments LION protection chip set
> > and
> > the gas gage chip. I might learn more later.. but this is getting close
to
> > betraying a Good Team memebers confidence. I won't be publishing any
> > circuits schematics for sure. All the rest of the information is left up
> > to
> > the Lister to find from the TI site and the Molicell site.
> >
> > Lion has to be protected from shorts, over charging and thermal abuse.
> > Without this.. you will kill them. And maybe get hurt also. So....the
> > level
> > if BMS and the depth that you have to go to have a good support of each
> > cell
> > is close to a sensor per cell. That's a LOT of equipment when you have
> > 2,688
> > Cells to monitor. As the Mg car did.
> > We had to total tear down the battery pack and charge every module in
> > it's seprate charger.. and we had 210 chargers. This makes this kind of
> > pack
> > and the service of it totally unpratical for a Street EV. You need at
> > least
> > 3 guys and 4 hours to pull a charge cycle off. We did it once and there
> > were no cameras on us when we did it for Real.
> >
> > In the next coulpe of years I expect as a Charger and now also a BMS
> > designer... I will get Very good at doing all the above foot work....in
> > designing my own version that can be Series charged with a single very
> > high
> > power charger.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:08 PM
> > Subject: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> >
> >
> >> Okay Rich,
> >>
> >> Could you please tell us all just for curiosity (and bookmarking sake)
> >> Where you got the Lions and what the cons are against them or
> >> Why you said,
> >> "Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
> >> needed."
> >>
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> >> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:34 PM
> >> To: [email protected]
> >> Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> >>
> >> I could bring one of my V28 lions.. should you wish to play with 28
> >> volts and 100 amps.
> >>
> >> I have 4, 2 came with my Combi Kit... and two followed me home.
> >> 2 came home with scorch marks on them. One has been diassected... I
> >> learned a LOT...
> >>
> >> Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
> >> needed.
> >>
> >> Rich Rudman
> >> Madman
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>
> First, has anyone tried using an automotive gasket sealer to bond these
> cores to the frame?
> Something like UltraCopper, etc. I've seen some products that claim to
Gasket cealers are NOT glue, in fact they are designed to allow you to
separate the items that are sealed.
You'd be better off using a high temperature adhesive, something like JB
Weld. It can handle several hundred degrees and does a pretty good job of
stickig stuff together.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually the Rds-on of the STM ISOTOP pkgs isn't all that exceptional; a
reasonable number (4-6) of good TO-220 or TO-247 devices could easily
achieve a lower Rds-on. Its current rating can largely be attributed to
its greater dissipation abilities as well as its superior terminals.
But it depends on what you need it to do- dropping a volt or so under
high current may not be a big issue. The EV probably wouldn't see a
very significant difference in performance but the controller heatsink
would have to be larger.
Danny
Steve Arlint wrote:
An example of what you said for ISOTOP vs. TO-247:
The STW40N2 is a STMicroelectronics TO-247 case MOSFET (200V 40A). 3 of
these guys equal 1 STE110NS20ND (200V 110A ISOTOP) just about right on.
The balance is very close. The tangibles that bean counters look for are
the same. Heat dissipation, Gate-source capacitiance, internal
resistance, volume, etc. With the exception of price. 3 TO-247 parts
are $7.72 on digikey vs. $35.00 for the ISOTOP. I don't know how this
scales for massive quantities, but the concept is there.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
100$ from "Ebay stores"
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:49 PM
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> OK... the packs are 3 amp hours each at 28 volts,
> Umm that's 22 Lion V28 packs.
>
> OK... each pack lists for $150 That's $3300 for your scooter's pack.
>
> I don't have that kind of cash for a small EV. That out buy me A LOT of
> Optimas....
>
> Look at that cash for the return... not a good value I contend.
>
> Madman
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:03 AM
> Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
>
>
> > Rich can you tell us how many AH per charger? Would you say a 64ah pack
> at
> > 28vdc might be practical now? Something for a scooter. I can make a 17
> ah
> > pack from lead acid BB batteries using 2 17 ah batteries at 24v. If I
> could
> > fit 64ah at 24vdc into a Rad to Go it would be sweet. Can it be
> practically
> > done? The Rad to Go uses two 17 ah batteries on their sides. There is
> > plenty of room in a scooter like the Rad to GO or the GoPed, plus the
> > battery compartment could be spacered up a bit if needed. With this
> battery
> > we could approach a 30 mile range using the stock configuration.
Lawrence
> > Rhodes.....
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:25 AM
> > Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> >
> >
> > > The Lions packs are from Millwaukee Tools.
> > > The Cells are from Molicell in BC.
> > > John did not tell me were they came from, I had to guess and haggle it
> out
> > > of him, and on dissassembly it was obvious.
> > > I have great respect for these cells and the efforts that Millwaukee
> tool
> > > had to go through to get a system that works with them. There is a LOT
> of
> > > brains in the Cell pack and in the charger. If you look at the photo
> from
> > > Philille Borges post you will see a potted black blob that has a LOT
of
> > > brains in it.
> > > My Guess....Is it has the Texas Instruments LION protection chip
set
> > > and
> > > the gas gage chip. I might learn more later.. but this is getting
close
> to
> > > betraying a Good Team memebers confidence. I won't be publishing any
> > > circuits schematics for sure. All the rest of the information is left
up
> > > to
> > > the Lister to find from the TI site and the Molicell site.
> > >
> > > Lion has to be protected from shorts, over charging and thermal abuse.
> > > Without this.. you will kill them. And maybe get hurt also. So....the
> > > level
> > > if BMS and the depth that you have to go to have a good support of
each
> > > cell
> > > is close to a sensor per cell. That's a LOT of equipment when you have
> > > 2,688
> > > Cells to monitor. As the Mg car did.
> > > We had to total tear down the battery pack and charge every module
in
> > > it's seprate charger.. and we had 210 chargers. This makes this kind
of
> > > pack
> > > and the service of it totally unpratical for a Street EV. You need at
> > > least
> > > 3 guys and 4 hours to pull a charge cycle off. We did it once and
there
> > > were no cameras on us when we did it for Real.
> > >
> > > In the next coulpe of years I expect as a Charger and now also a BMS
> > > designer... I will get Very good at doing all the above foot
work....in
> > > designing my own version that can be Series charged with a single very
> > > high
> > > power charger.
> > >
> > > Madman
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:08 PM
> > > Subject: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> > >
> > >
> > >> Okay Rich,
> > >>
> > >> Could you please tell us all just for curiosity (and bookmarking
sake)
> > >> Where you got the Lions and what the cons are against them or
> > >> Why you said,
> > >> "Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
> > >> needed."
> > >>
> > >> -----Original Message-----
> > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On
> > >> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> > >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:34 PM
> > >> To: [email protected]
> > >> Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> > >>
> > >> I could bring one of my V28 lions.. should you wish to play with 28
> > >> volts and 100 amps.
> > >>
> > >> I have 4, 2 came with my Combi Kit... and two followed me home.
> > >> 2 came home with scorch marks on them. One has been diassected... I
> > >> learned a LOT...
> > >>
> > >> Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
> > >> needed.
> > >>
> > >> Rich Rudman
> > >> Madman
> > >>
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Glad to hear you got that Fiero going. 25-30 miles range on
15 Orbitals looks to be pretty good. I can't help but wonder
what range it would do on 28 of them, 19 in the rear, 9 in
the front.
Of course, handling might get a bit screwy.
Any performance goals you are shooting for with this car? I
imagine twin 8"s, Zilla 2k, and 25 to 28 Orbitals in a Fiero
might do low to mid 13s with the right tires.
I am interested in those new MkIII regs, but the price is
very high. I'll wait and see how they compare with the old
Powercheqs before I ever buy them, although I will upgrade
to AGMs one of these days after my EV is going with its
initial floodie pack and those AGMs will need regs.
Rich Rudman wrote:
>Aside from the chargers and R&D... I got some good EV
>grining in this weekend also. We have My '85 Fiero
>back on line, I have 15 Blue Orbs in it so far...
>shooting for 25 on this pass and maybe 30 if I get
>lucky.
>
>It's always good to get a upgrade done and light it
>up and drive it out the shop door. I have 9 up front
>and 6 at this time in the back. The back can
>hold 16 to 19 batteries all by itself.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, this story had me grinning the entire time through.
BS isn't exclusive to those of Greek heritage, btw. ;) I'm
sure if old wifey would have found out what happened that
day she'd ring your neck!
Of course the cops would be interested in your car's
performance; they're often rolling around in Crown Vics that
weigh 5,000 pounds(fully equipped with all police gear) and
do 0-60 mph in about 8 seconds, or those dreadfully slow
Impalas that do 0-60 mph in 11 seconds. Blue Meanie is much,
much faster. A lot of police departments are talking about
upgrading to the new Chargers though, so Meanie might not be
much faster for long.
The idea of the cops sanctioning a display of an electric
car burnout is interesting. This would certainly get an
audience, to say the least.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joel Hacker wrote:
>John,
>Could you or someone else comment on Hawker >AeroBatteries.
What they are and what technology >makes them so "effecient"
or desirable to you?
I do know the ones John is using are rated to 26 AH at the
20 hour rate, each weighing 24 pounds. I don't know what 1
hr rate or reserve capacity is, but I'd more than love to
have that data.
I imagine about 40 minutes reserve capacity, or basically in
John Wayland's car, using 25 amps to cruise 60 mph, would
equate to 40 miles range. 25-30 miles if you throw some lead
foot into the mix.
As for 'efficiency', they appear to have very low Peukert's
numbers compared to other AGM batteries, along with a very
low internal resistance.
>I'm just curious as to what they are that makes them
>so attractive!
Specific power out the ass.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall that at 2,000
amps, they sag to about 8V each. So that's 16 kW/battery, or
for 29 of them under the hood 464 kW from the batteries.
Basically, 630 battery horsepower out of a pack weighing 696
pounds.
This is nearly 50% more power than Exide Orbitals per unit
weight.
A dedicated drag car with about 1,200 pounds of these babies
and the motors and controllers to use it would be pulling
high 6s or low 7s. I have a hunch Dennis Berube is going to
go this path.
These same batteries could just as easily be placed into a
street car, but I don't see anyone with deep pockets ready
to aim for 10s or 9s yet. It would take a very careful
choice of glider, that's for damn sure. Probably twin 11"
WarP motors and a maxed out HV Zilla 2k, if they can both
fit...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Look at that cash for the return... not a good value I contend.
Buying V28 packs and chargers is an expensive route to go; have you
tried contacting the cell manufacturer (E-One Moli Energy) directly?
<http://www.molienergy.com/corporat.htm>
The cylindrical cells are made at the Maple Ridge (a suburb of
Vancouver, BC) plant, at a rate of 1.5-2 million per month, but the
product page is a bit out of date, listing only the cobalt ICR18650
cells and not the manganese IMR26700 cell of interest to EVers. The
Taiwan (manufacturer of the prismatic cells) site lists the IMR26700
cell:
<http://www.e-one.com.tw/>
The specs are also found in a press release on both sites:
IMR26700: 285Wh/l, 1500W/kg (20 seconds), >100A discharge, charge to
4.2V, cutoff at 2.5V, 2900mAh, 100g, 3.8V nominal.
I notice on the Canadian site's product page that they have an 11.1V
6.6Ah SMBus battery <http://www.molienergy.com/specs/ME202.AH.pdf>,
which is a 3x3 block of 18650 cells + management in one package. A 3x3
block of 26700 cells yields an 11.4V 8.7Ah battery, and the charge
voltages specified for the ME202AH appear to match those of the IMR26700
cells (4.2V/cell, 2.5V/cell cutoff), so it might not be a particular
stretch to mate the off-the-shelf brains out of the ME202AH with a 9
pack of the IMR26700 cells and have a roughly 2lb SMBus battery of just
shy of 12V nominal as an EV pack building block...
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'll forward him your email address. I'm kind of trying to get Greg to join
this list. On the 2 hour trip back we talked EV's the whole time and because he
had bought his conversion it was suprising how many gaps there were in his EV
knowledge. Still, it's great that he was able to pick my mind. This is how it
ought to be, EVers helping EVers!
As far as the EV1 tires, he said he got them a few years ago, basically right
at the end of any EV1 support. He got them at a Saturn dealership. I
specifically asked Michelin once about a year ago if any of those tires were
still available, and they said I'd have to check with local stores if there
might be any in warehouses.
Actually if you want the ultimate in extreme efficiency tire you might try
the Insight tire, Bridgestone Potenza RE92 in 165/65R14. I recall reading about
an Insight owner getting a set of Proxima's a few years ago and it actually
cost a few mpg due to the 10mm extra width.
Later,
Ricky
John Westlund <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
100 miles range on new batteries!? 50 amps to cruise freeway
speeds?
Holy shit! He needs to get that thing on the
www.austinev.org EV Album soon. A lot of people could learn
from this car if that info is correct.
I imagine that to get a 50 amp draw in such a car would
require extensive efficiency improvements. I want to know
what he did to achieve this so I can figure out the accuracy
of the claim. I do believe it's plausable, but again, it
would require a lot of drag reductions! and I'd guess this
is at 50 mph speeds as well, as 6,000 watts(50A*120V) to
cruise isn't much.
But hey, high school kids have built 140 mile range EVs
using flooded lead acid. Notable is "Solar Bolt", a
converted Fiat X1/9 that used 20 Trojan T145s, weighed about
3,000 pounds, 1,400 or so in batteries, extensive aero mods
for .30 drag coefficient, machined brakes to cut brake drag,
0 camber alignment, synthetic tranny oil, ect. I'd love to
duplicate that with AGMs some day in a smaller car.
If what he says is true, I'd like to apply his techniques to
my much smaller and even more aerodynamic Triumph GT6
conversion in progress. The only way I will ever be able to
get range *and* performance in the same car is through
efficiency, and if what you were told is true, I could learn
a lot from this guy. If I get my drag coefficient down to
~.25 through aero mods and use LRR tires with about a .008
cr, I might be able to achieve 150 wh/mile at 65 mph
according to simulation. .006 cr gets it down to about 130
wh/mile at that speed. This efficiency is what would allow a
range in excess of 100 miles on about 1,100 pounds of AGMs,
and the performance to go with it for those days when I
don't care about range.
Get him on the list as soon as you can!
Would it be possible for you to email me his contact info? I
have a lot of questions, first and foremost, where in the
hell did he get those EV1 tires?
Anything that could maximize my efficiency, I'm all ears.
Ricky Suiter wrote:
>Unfortunately Greg's Scirocco is not online anywhere
>that I'm aware of. He bought the car converted already
>2 years back and has been keeping it running.
>The car has a GE motor and G.E. EV1 controller (the
>humming SCR based one). The pack consists of 20
>T-125's, and he says his range even with 2 year old
>batteries is 40 miles. He does drive it for efficiency
>though. When it had new
>batteries he was driving it something like 70 miles a
>day. He said it could have
>done 100 on a charge. I don't know how far that would
>be pushing it, but on the
>little ride I got the amp draw going down the freeway
>was looking like something
>to the effect of around 50 amps.
>I'll ask him some more specifics next time I see him,
>but he's made every
>attempt necessary to make it more efficient. The car
>even has some EV1 Michelin
>Proxima RR tires on it!
---------------------------------
Relax. Yahoo! Mail virus scanning helps detect nasty viruses!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
The mystery was why was the Zilla crapping out? blip throttle, and then it
flashes a Fault...shuts down but does not post a digital error code...
Zillas normally tell you where it hurts how much and what Doctor to call
when they feel ill. Any ways.. I have to call Ot, or think clearly while
looking at the wiring.. it's gotta be obvious.
Low SLI battery will do this.. the Zilla is supposed to log low SLI
voltage, but if it sags quickly enough the zilla doesn't get a chance to
write it to EEPROM before the power drops completely. Usually the main
contactor will drop out as it reboots. Have someone watch the Hairball
serial output when it happens, if you see the bootloader countdown
you'll know. The Hairball draws significantly more power under full
throttle.. I assume it is powering some electronics in the Zilla.
There were also some issues for awhile where noise can cause the Zilla
to decide its max current allowed is 0 amps. Its easy to tell if you
have this issue, since a simple key off/on will not bring the vehicle
back to life, (contactor closes but no go) but turning the key off for
30-90 seconds will restore the unit to operation. Otmar has a hardware
and a software change that seems to solve this problem.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry my mistake: 85$:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7589908996&ssPageName=MERC_VI_ReBay_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 9:16 PM
Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> 100$ from "Ebay stores"
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 8:49 PM
> Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
>
>
> > OK... the packs are 3 amp hours each at 28 volts,
> > Umm that's 22 Lion V28 packs.
> >
> > OK... each pack lists for $150 That's $3300 for your scooter's pack.
> >
> > I don't have that kind of cash for a small EV. That out buy me A LOT of
> > Optimas....
> >
> > Look at that cash for the return... not a good value I contend.
> >
> > Madman
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2006 11:03 AM
> > Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> >
> >
> > > Rich can you tell us how many AH per charger? Would you say a 64ah
pack
> > at
> > > 28vdc might be practical now? Something for a scooter. I can make a
17
> > ah
> > > pack from lead acid BB batteries using 2 17 ah batteries at 24v. If I
> > could
> > > fit 64ah at 24vdc into a Rad to Go it would be sweet. Can it be
> > practically
> > > done? The Rad to Go uses two 17 ah batteries on their sides. There
is
> > > plenty of room in a scooter like the Rad to GO or the GoPed, plus the
> > > battery compartment could be spacered up a bit if needed. With this
> > battery
> > > we could approach a 30 mile range using the stock configuration.
> Lawrence
> > > Rhodes.....
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Saturday, February 11, 2006 11:25 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> > >
> > >
> > > > The Lions packs are from Millwaukee Tools.
> > > > The Cells are from Molicell in BC.
> > > > John did not tell me were they came from, I had to guess and haggle
it
> > out
> > > > of him, and on dissassembly it was obvious.
> > > > I have great respect for these cells and the efforts that Millwaukee
> > tool
> > > > had to go through to get a system that works with them. There is a
LOT
> > of
> > > > brains in the Cell pack and in the charger. If you look at the photo
> > from
> > > > Philille Borges post you will see a potted black blob that has a LOT
> of
> > > > brains in it.
> > > > My Guess....Is it has the Texas Instruments LION protection chip
> set
> > > > and
> > > > the gas gage chip. I might learn more later.. but this is getting
> close
> > to
> > > > betraying a Good Team memebers confidence. I won't be publishing
any
> > > > circuits schematics for sure. All the rest of the information is
left
> up
> > > > to
> > > > the Lister to find from the TI site and the Molicell site.
> > > >
> > > > Lion has to be protected from shorts, over charging and thermal
abuse.
> > > > Without this.. you will kill them. And maybe get hurt also.
So....the
> > > > level
> > > > if BMS and the depth that you have to go to have a good support of
> each
> > > > cell
> > > > is close to a sensor per cell. That's a LOT of equipment when you
have
> > > > 2,688
> > > > Cells to monitor. As the Mg car did.
> > > > We had to total tear down the battery pack and charge every
module
> in
> > > > it's seprate charger.. and we had 210 chargers. This makes this kind
> of
> > > > pack
> > > > and the service of it totally unpratical for a Street EV. You need
at
> > > > least
> > > > 3 guys and 4 hours to pull a charge cycle off. We did it once and
> there
> > > > were no cameras on us when we did it for Real.
> > > >
> > > > In the next coulpe of years I expect as a Charger and now also a BMS
> > > > designer... I will get Very good at doing all the above foot
> work....in
> > > > designing my own version that can be Series charged with a single
very
> > > > high
> > > > power charger.
> > > >
> > > > Madman
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "Hacker Joel-QA6240" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > > Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:08 PM
> > > > Subject: RE: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >> Okay Rich,
> > > >>
> > > >> Could you please tell us all just for curiosity (and bookmarking
> sake)
> > > >> Where you got the Lions and what the cons are against them or
> > > >> Why you said,
> > > >> "Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
> > > >> needed."
> > > >>
> > > >> -----Original Message-----
> > > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> > > >> Behalf Of Rich Rudman
> > > >> Sent: Friday, February 10, 2006 12:34 PM
> > > >> To: [email protected]
> > > >> Subject: Re: Jesse James & Monster Garage Go Lithium!!!
> > > >>
> > > >> I could bring one of my V28 lions.. should you wish to play with 28
> > > >> volts and 100 amps.
> > > >>
> > > >> I have 4, 2 came with my Combi Kit... and two followed me home.
> > > >> 2 came home with scorch marks on them. One has been diassected... I
> > > >> learned a LOT...
> > > >>
> > > >> Lion is going to be a heart ache.. Lots to be gained...much effort
> > > >> needed.
> > > >>
> > > >> Rich Rudman
> > > >> Madman
> > > >>
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
