EV Digest 5281
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Testing Contactors - Results
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Multi charger.
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: GE EV1 SCR controller info for rank novice?
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Solectria Force peak power (was Re: Early Hawker deaths)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 12V Current Limit
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: GE EV1 SCR controller info for rank novice?
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Early Hawker deaths (was Re: help choose best AGM battery for lawnmower)
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) camber
by "David McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Towing Question for Solectria Force
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 12V Current Limit
by "STEVE CLUNN" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: advise not using BB600 for long string [was Putting NiCDs in an
aluminum box]
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: advise not using BB600 for long string [was Putting NiCDs in
an aluminum box]
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: camber
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: camber
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: advise not using BB600 for long string [was Putting NiCDs
in an aluminum box]
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Wire gauge thoughts
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: advise not using BB600 for long string [was Putting NiCDs in an
aluminum box
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: camber
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: GE EV1 SCR controller info for rank novice?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: camber
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Dual voltage output from an Iota DC-DC
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Bizarre Amphour Meter Idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: The batts went flat...
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
However, the commercial battery boxes I see for nicads never use
aluminum. They are always stainless steel or nickel (which don't corrode
in KOH). Is there any special reason why you don't use one of them?
Well, the truck already has a very nice battery box :-) Seriously
speaking it's a very nice US_Electricar design and mounted to the frame
in a very solid and secure proper manner.
There is also the issue of "this might not really work". BB600's might
be too much of a pain, the energy density might be too low, they might
not equal strings of Hawkers.
I've been working up to this test by trying the BB600's in the
Elec-trak, followed by a parallel string, followed by blowing more snow
than heck this winter to see how they could stand up to use. They seem
good, this is the next step.
I think I am going to do this as sort of a "pilot project" for a year or
so. If NiCDs turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread then I
will sell the BB600's next year and spend serious money for 50
STM-100's. If they turn out to be dogs, then I will pull them out and
install a set of Hawker 42ah batteries. If they turn out to do
everything I want and not need much attention then I will pull the Al
battery box and replace it with a steel box subsystem capable of holding
500 BB600 batteries somehow.
I'm hoping the vents, the POR15 paint, and a tarp based liner will hold
for a year or so in the meantime.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
ProEV wrote:
> It is a HCPL-7800. If I am reading the data sheet correctly the input
> current is below 1 ma.
Then you are definitely switching a "dry" circuit.
>> If the current is only 1ma or so, then I'd put a small capacitor
>> across the LED and resistor to cause a momentary current pulse.
> I am concerned that I will have to wait for the capacitor to 'fill'
> before I take my reading. My relay needs .015 of a second to settle
> (including bounce).
The extra time to charge the capacitor is negligible. You only need the
current pulse during the time it takes the relay's contact to actually
close and stop bouncing; usually under 1 msec. Your 15 msec relay
closure time is probably 14 msec from powering the coil until the first
contact closure; then 1 msec of bounce. After that the contacts stay
closed.
If you want to get analytical, suppose you are reading a 12v battery
with negligible internal resistance. Your circuit is:
_____/_____
| relay |
| >
__|__+ > 10k
___ 12v >
| - _|_
| _\_/_ optocoupler LED
|___________|
When the relay contact closes, only about 1ma flows from the 12v
battery.
> The data sheet (http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/T9A_DS.pdf)
> does specify a minimum contact load of 1 amp at 5 volts.
Ok, so add an RC "snubber" like this:
_____/____________
| relay | |
| > >
__|__+ 10 > > 10k
___ 12v > >
| - _|_ _|_
| 100uF ___ _\_/_ optocoupler LED
|___________|______|
The 10 ohm resistor and 100uF capacitor have a time constant of 1 msec.
When the contact first closes, the capacitor is discharged; so the peak
current is I = 12v/10ohms = 1.2 amps; it meets the specified minimum.
But over the next 1 msec, the capacitor will charge to 63% of 12v, and
after 5 msec it is within 99% of 12v.
Note that a tiny cheap 100uF capacitor probably has an intrinsic ESR of
a few ohms all by itself; most designed-for-cost engineers won't bother
with an actual resistor. Lowering the resistance increases the peak
current, but the capacitor fully charges faster.
> They do not specify what will happen if you do not meet the 'minimum
> contact load'.
The contacts close, but have high resistance. Instead of a fraction of
an ohm, you have 100s of ohms or even more. With a truly dry circuit,
they may have so much resistance that it's almost as bad as if they
didn't close at all.
> It also seems a little unclear whether 'minimum contact load' means
> the load the relay breaks or the load the relay carries when closed.
It's the load the relay carries when it closes. It doesn't need any
current when it opens; in fact, most of the arcing and damage occur when
it opens.
> Am I being too clever in my software? Should I just leave the Vicor
> dc/dc on and break the <18 amp load? Will this hurt the Vicor?
It won't hurt the Vicor, but your relays will wear out a lot faster.
PS: The T9A is a really cheap, low-grade relay. Are you sure that's what
you want to use? They have versions that are mechanically identical but
with better contacts for your application.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Brad Baylor wrote:
> Heh! Already been done! :)
> See this page:
> http://www.knology.net/~gdion/EVPorsche/chargers.html
Very nice! Let us know how it works out long-term.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Weren't the GM EV1 controllers crushed with the EV1's? Are they available at
all?
Steve -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Darin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: GE EV1 SCR controller info for rank novice?
> At 08:14 PM 15/03/06 -0500, Darin wrote:
>
> > hi all -
> > anyone have any pointers to information about the GE EV1 controller?
> > i recently acquired a decommissioned but working 25-year-old Baker 36v
> > forklift (yes, the whole thing - except the battery) and the plan is
> > to scavenge its parts for a low-performance, short range, small town,
> > shoestring budget conversion.
> update on my original post...
> in the event there are any other newbies like myself lurking around and
> looking for info on the GE EV-1 controller, a long-time EVDL member
> contacted me off-list with some generously offered and very welcome
> advice, plus a pointer to an inexpensive EV-1 technical manual available
> through Flight Systems Industrial Products:
> description here:
> http://www.fsip.biz/techmanuals.htm
> in their catalog here:
> http://tinyurl.com/sxmms
>
> since i posted the original message in this thread, i also obtained 2
> old service manuals from the company that sold me the surplus lift
> truck. these manuals have sections on the controller (and other panel
> components) which i'd be willing to share if anyone needs info.
> and in the event nobody else is currently looking for information on how
> to set up a 25 year-old motor controller ... :-) ... at least this
> message goes into the archive for posterity where it may be useful for
> someone doing a search in the future. (the archive is a great resource
> - i've spent many hours on the learning curve in there.)
> - darin
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having used both BB600's and STM-100's, I've got to tell you that there is
very little comparison. The STMs are way better. Of course I like them
both better than lead.
My motorcycle had a real 30 - 40 mile range with 228lbs of STM-100s and I'm
lucky to get half that with 160lbs of BB600's, plus the watering system on
the STMs is hard to beat. Either way, a nice stiff pack of NiCads is great.
I was enjoying that feeling today as I was out riding. They are rock
solid until they finally poop out.
damon
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:09:38 -0500
However, the commercial battery boxes I see for nicads never use
aluminum. They are always stainless steel or nickel (which don't corrode
in KOH). Is there any special reason why you don't use one of them?
Well, the truck already has a very nice battery box :-) Seriously speaking
it's a very nice US_Electricar design and mounted to the frame in a very
solid and secure proper manner.
There is also the issue of "this might not really work". BB600's might be
too much of a pain, the energy density might be too low, they might not
equal strings of Hawkers.
I've been working up to this test by trying the BB600's in the Elec-trak,
followed by a parallel string, followed by blowing more snow than heck this
winter to see how they could stand up to use. They seem good, this is the
next step.
I think I am going to do this as sort of a "pilot project" for a year or
so. If NiCDs turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread then I
will sell the BB600's next year and spend serious money for 50 STM-100's.
If they turn out to be dogs, then I will pull them out and install a set of
Hawker 42ah batteries. If they turn out to do everything I want and not
need much attention then I will pull the Al battery box and replace it with
a steel box subsystem capable of holding 500 BB600 batteries somehow.
I'm hoping the vents, the POR15 paint, and a tarp based liner will hold for
a year or so in the meantime.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Mar 2006 at 22:02, Jim Coate wrote:
> Can Forces really pull 250 amps?
That's what the AMC-320 and -325 inverters are rated for, but it's peak
current. I doubt that it achieves that for more than a few seconds.
The limit can be set lower in software. I wouldn't be surprised if
Solectria had done so in the interest of longer battery and/or inverter
life.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try removing the transmission. Without the extra load, the current should
drop. I don't think 12V is enough to cause an unloaded 8" ADC to
overspin.
> I'm breaking in my ADC motor (which is already attached to the
> transmission), by running 12V through it to wear in the brushes. I've
> attached a 500W power supply to the car's original 12V SLI battery, then
> hooked the battery to the motor.
>
> At this voltage, though, the motor is drawing 50A - 70A, which I think is
> making the power supply cut out, so the battery runs down very quickly.
> What can I do to limit the current to something under 40A, preferably 25A
> or
> so? This is an 8-inch ADC motor.
>
> Thanks.
>
> Bill Dennis
>
>
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low rates.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:09 AM 26/03/06 -0500, Steve wrote:
Weren't the GM EV1 controllers crushed with the EV1's? Are they available
at all?
Hi Steve
General Motors EV1 controllers crushed or stripped for other General Motors
vehicles, not to be confused with GE (General Electric) EV1 controllers
that have been around for 30 years or more.
The ones under discussion are the GE ones.
I have one (on the shelf) from a 72V vehicle, I'm going to get the manual
one of these years...
James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
For those wishing to play along, here are the links to the spreadsheet
of my truck's charging and driving habits. Page 4 has the charging
profile in real time.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/Dol7datalog.xls
Here is the schematic one of our talented members drew up of the
Dolphin charger.
http://www.rotordesign.com/s10/PrizmCharger.pdf
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Andre' Blanchard" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> At 02:42 PM 3/23/2006, you wrote:
> ><< snip >>
> >
> > >The other odd thing is you won't find
> > >a USE truck with very many miles on it. So I think the problem is
> > >universal. With such a small volume of amps flowing back and forth I
> > >don't see why the water loss is so high.
> >
> >If that is the case about the problem being widespread, I'd be looking
> >directly at the charger. It sure sounds like too much voltage at the
> >end to me.
> << snip >>
> >John
>
> This pack is 4 strings of 26 batteries?
>
> That is a long string to start with and to have 4 of them paralleled
makes
> things worse. It would be interesting know how the wiring is done,
does
> the charge and discharge current stand any chance of being equally
divided
> between the strings.
>
> If I were doing the wiring, the four strings would be kept separate
until
> the last possible connections to the motor and/or controller and the
length
> of wire and number of connections in each string would be the same.
Maybe
> even use wire a little on the small side or a few extra feet coiled up
> someplace. Also during the finish charge each string would have its
own
> separate 0.5 amp(or whatever is recommended for this battery) light
bulb in
> series.
>
>
>
> __________
> Andre' B. Clear Lake, Wi.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling resistance by front
end alignment that zeroes camber. Any comments on this? Or is it just
changing camber to accomodate different motor weight?
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Towing with the front wheels up is fine it is just like a front wheel drive
ice car. mike y
----- Original Message -----
From: "Todd Martin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 1:38 PM
Subject: Towing Question for Solectria Force
> I am wondering if it is possible to safely use a tow dolly on a Solectria
Force (the rear wheels of the car remain on the pavement). Since the
vehicle has direct drive instead of a manual transmission, I don't know if
there is a "Neutral" setting to allow the vehicle to be rolled around. I
suppose if it doesn't have a "Neutral", it may still be okay since the
direct drive is only attached to the front wheels.
>
> Any first hand knowledge?
>
> Thanks!
>
> Todd Martin
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Peter VanDerWal"
Try removing the transmission. Without the extra load, the current should
drop. I don't think 12V is enough to cause an unloaded 8" ADC to
overspin.
Well that sounds like a lot of work , :-) another way is to run the motor
form your battery pack through your controller . This way you can brake in
your batteries and the motor . I just wedge a piece of paper folded up
inbetween the throddle arm and its stop . I've tried running them on my
welder with not luck as it seem to much of a lead for even that . good your
so far along , hope you post about your first ride , .
Steve Clunn
I'm breaking in my ADC motor (which is already attached to the
transmission), by running 12V through it to wear in the brushes. I've
attached a 500W power supply to the car's original 12V SLI battery, then
hooked the battery to the motor.
At this voltage, though, the motor is drawing 50A - 70A, which I think is
making the power supply cut out, so the battery runs down very quickly.
What can I do to limit the current to something under 40A, preferably 25A
or
so? This is an 8-inch ADC motor.
Thanks.
Bill Dennis
Later,
Ricky
02 Insight
92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
Glendale, AZ USA
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. PC-to-Phone calls for ridiculously low
rates.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
i agree totally on that !
watering my E-scooter purpose 31 cells CVH50 nicad aircraft starting battery
is already a 1,5 hour pain (despite they are double water capacity than
BB600 and so need half watering schedule)
Imagine you are going to put with a seringe arround 30ml water every 50
hours of use in EACH 500 cell (mine is 100 to 150 hour reserve and still
boring me every time i water them)
I think with 2 minutes/cell you can forget watering more cells than 100,
it's going to last the day and night and be quickly a pain for EV commute
usage !!!
these cells are perfect for mower, escooter, ups, all purpose with 24 to
60V, more voltage and you are going to hate demineralized water and seringe
usage.
Wh/kg are on same level than good AGM during summer, STM5-100 give arround
15wh/kg more (55wh/kg compared to 40wh/kg for aircraft starting nicad)
If you want nicad in your car, use STM5-100 as advised in their technical
manual and you will never regret it during their +1500 cycles life.
you still have to protect your aluminium box though...
just my "aircraft starting cells user" advise...been there done that
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:14 AM
Subject: Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
> Having used both BB600's and STM-100's, I've got to tell you that there is
> very little comparison. The STMs are way better. Of course I like them
> both better than lead.
>
> My motorcycle had a real 30 - 40 mile range with 228lbs of STM-100s and
I'm
> lucky to get half that with 160lbs of BB600's, plus the watering system on
> the STMs is hard to beat. Either way, a nice stiff pack of NiCads is
great.
> I was enjoying that feeling today as I was out riding. They are rock
> solid until they finally poop out.
>
>
> damon
>
>
> >From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Reply-To: [email protected]
> >To: [email protected]
> >Subject: Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
> >Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:09:38 -0500
> >
> >>However, the commercial battery boxes I see for nicads never use
> >>aluminum. They are always stainless steel or nickel (which don't corrode
> >>in KOH). Is there any special reason why you don't use one of them?
> >
> >Well, the truck already has a very nice battery box :-) Seriously
speaking
> >it's a very nice US_Electricar design and mounted to the frame in a very
> >solid and secure proper manner.
> >
> >There is also the issue of "this might not really work". BB600's might be
> >too much of a pain, the energy density might be too low, they might not
> >equal strings of Hawkers.
> >
> >I've been working up to this test by trying the BB600's in the Elec-trak,
> >followed by a parallel string, followed by blowing more snow than heck
this
> >winter to see how they could stand up to use. They seem good, this is the
> >next step.
> >
> >I think I am going to do this as sort of a "pilot project" for a year or
> >so. If NiCDs turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread then I
> >will sell the BB600's next year and spend serious money for 50 STM-100's.
> >If they turn out to be dogs, then I will pull them out and install a set
of
> >Hawker 42ah batteries. If they turn out to do everything I want and not
> >need much attention then I will pull the Al battery box and replace it
with
> >a steel box subsystem capable of holding 500 BB600 batteries somehow.
> >
> >I'm hoping the vents, the POR15 paint, and a tarp based liner will hold
for
> >a year or so in the meantime.
> >
> >Chris
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Philippe Borges wrote:
i agree totally on that !
*nod* I completely understand. Anyone want to trade a set of 50 STM-100
NiCds for about 300 BB600's?
Imagine you are going to put with a seringe arround 30ml water every 50
hours of use in EACH 500 cell (mine is 100 to 150 hour reserve and still
boring me every time i water them)
I think with 2 minutes/cell you can forget watering more cells than 100,
it's going to last the day and night and be quickly a pain for EV commute
usage !!!
I agree, and I can't wait to do this :-( Though I have found that for
whatever reason the BB600's in the tractor don't seem to need water very
much. But doing 90 of them is still a pain in the tail.
If you want nicad in your car, use STM5-100 as advised in their technical
manual and you will never regret it during their +1500 cycles life.
you still have to protect your aluminium box though...
I have a feeling I would love a set of STMs. 50 of them would give the
truck a good solid 80-90 mile range. With 250 of the BB600's I'm going
to get 30 tops. But it should be 30 miles in the rain, the cold, the
snow, the warm spring days. 30 miles if I floor it all over, 30 miles if
I drive it like an egg (ok, not quite but there is no P factor to speak
of in NiCDs).
And if I empty the pack then the world does not come to an instant end.
The only big problem is that I think such a set would cost around $20k,
which is a bit out of my budget for an unproven design. So I learn on
the BB600's and decide if this is for me.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
** Reply to message from Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Fri, 24 Mar 2006
12:17:46 -0600
So how would I get started on this? I suppose I need to buy a shunt, v-f chip
and a clock. Where would you recommend I get those?
> > > Hmmm, looking at this more, it looks like this would work well.
> >
> > would you use the bicycle odometer? I was thinking the odometer might not
> > accept the pulses as fast as the chip spits them out.
>
> I originally suggested using a clock, which has a chip that divides a
> 32.768 KHz crystal down to 1 pulse per second. You would set up the
> V-to-F converter chip to output a frequency near this as your maximum
> counting rate.
>
> A bicycle speedometer's maximum pulse-counting rate is considerably
> lower; perhaps 10 per second. You could use a correspondingly bigger
> capacitor on the V-to-F chip so its maximum frequency was 10 Hz, but
> that requires a large-value precision capacitor; not cheap!
>
> So, the better way to do it is to add a frequency divider chip, like a
> CMOS 4040. Setup the V-to-F chip for a high frequency so the capacitor
> is reasonable, and divide it down to 10 Hz or so for the bicycle
> speedometer.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
Dale Curren
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Having zero static camber will do a few things:
- put more tire contact patch on the ground when the car is neutral
position
- have less tire contact patch when in a corner
If you modify the static camber, your cornering ability will be affected.
You may have seen people suggest that the toe be adjusted to reduce
friction. If you do this, the cars abilility for the tires to return to
centre after a corner will be afftected. This may also affect high speed
straight line tracking.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David McWethy
Sent: March 25, 2006 9:28 PM
To: EVList
Subject: camber
Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling resistance by front
end alignment that zeroes camber. Any comments on this? Or is it just
changing camber to accomodate different motor weight?
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I talk to mine master mechanic about alignment specifications. Zero camber
would be ok, if you are going in a straight line at speed, and turning a
corner at very slow speed.
If you used zero camber and turn a corner at a fast speed to the right, both
wheels at the top will tilt to the right which one wheel will go negative
and the other goes positive. The vehicle can tip over a lot easier when set
up this way.
When turning right at high speed, you want the passenger side top of the
wheel still have some tilt to the left.
Camber is normally set from 1/2 to 1-1/2 positive.
Toe-in if set up wrong, can provide the greatest resistance. Again if you
set the toe-in to zero, the wheels at a speed will tend to either turn
inward or outward every time you hit a bump or uneven surface making the
steering wobble. At a certain high max speed, the toe-in may be closed to
zero at that time.
Toe-in is normally set from 1/16 to 3/16 (in inches).
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "David McWethy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVList" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 10:27 PM
Subject: camber
> Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling resistance by
> front
> end alignment that zeroes camber. Any comments on this? Or is it just
> changing camber to accomodate different motor weight?
>
> Dave
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 02:22 AM 3/26/2006, Philippe Borges wrote:
I think with 2 minutes/cell you can forget watering more cells than 100,
it's going to last the day and night and be quickly a pain for EV commute
usage !!!
2 minutes per cell? Ummm, are you doing this with one hand tied
behind your back and your feet tied together?
I use a socket wrench to pop a bunch of caps loose.
Then I take all the caps off.
Then add water - currently slow, but I'm going to put together a
insert/squeeze/release unit to make this quick.
put caps on
Tighten with socket.
Done.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:06 PM
Subject: Re: Wire gauge thoughts
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> >
> >
> > A No. 4 AWG multi strand copper wire with a insulation that is rated
> > at 105
> > C(221 F) that may be enclosed in a wireway with two other cables, or
> > three
> > conductors that has not over 60 percent fill and each wire is space so
> > there
> > is not more than 24 inches of surface contact between the conductors in
> > a
> > ambient temperature of 20 C(68 F) shall be rated at 140 amps.
> >
> > The maximum length in this type of spacing is 80 feet.
> >
> > As a single conductor in open air, then the maximum is about 180 amps.
> >
> > If there are more than three conductors in a raceway, than you must
> > de-rated
> > the ampere by 20 percent.
> >
> > Roland
> >
>
> Thanks very much!
>
> Thinking of ordering this:
> http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4032
> and these: http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecId=1332
> for short (10 in) inter-battery hookups on a 96V (12x8) pack for 80A
> typical (400A peak) use. Should I be running two parallel cables between
> batts?
If it was me, and I had only a lot of No.4 terminal lugs and wire in stock,
I would parallel the cables. Just use two No.4 terminal lugs back to back,
so it will lay out nice.
You have to calculated the total length of cable run. In my battery pack, I
have 40 feet of cable links alone. Then there is a circuit run of 25 feet
from the motor thru the controller thru the contactors and to the battery,
which makes 50 + 40 = 90 feet for me.
The resistance will be higher with all these connections than a straight run
of 90 feet of wire.
I am using 2/0 wire which is good for 300 amps in open air for that
distance. The voltage I start out with is about 200 volts on a 180 volt
pack. Its drops right now to 192 volts at 50 battery amps and than only
drop to 185 volts after 5 days of driving or about 16 to 20 miles which the
battery pack is just going below 75 percent. I am running a high ampere-hour
battery of 260 AH.
My peak maximum battery amperes is about 100 amps, and the motor amperes set
at a maximum surge to 400 amps. My normal driving is 50 battery amperes and
just below 200 motor amperes.
Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I can water a sealed Hawker in 2 minutes :) How do I know? I've done
it to 104 batts with 6 cells each. 624 waterings with a syringe. Oh
yes, and they were lifted up and put on a scale first too.
So the caps on the Nicads could be removed with a socket, driven by a
cordless drill. I know this because I've unscrewed 104 Hawkers 3 times
now, and put them back again. 104 x 6(3times off, 3 times on) x
2(bolts) = 1228.
Trust me, get a cordless drill, calibrate the lower torque settings on
the drill to the torque for the Nicad caps. Then it's all about speed
taking them off and putting them back on.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> i agree totally on that !
>
> watering my E-scooter purpose 31 cells CVH50 nicad aircraft starting
battery
> is already a 1,5 hour pain (despite they are double water capacity than
> BB600 and so need half watering schedule)
> Imagine you are going to put with a seringe arround 30ml water every 50
> hours of use in EACH 500 cell (mine is 100 to 150 hour reserve and still
> boring me every time i water them)
> I think with 2 minutes/cell you can forget watering more cells than 100,
> it's going to last the day and night and be quickly a pain for EV
commute
> usage !!!
>
> these cells are perfect for mower, escooter, ups, all purpose with 24 to
> 60V, more voltage and you are going to hate demineralized water and
seringe
> usage.
>
> Wh/kg are on same level than good AGM during summer, STM5-100 give
arround
> 15wh/kg more (55wh/kg compared to 40wh/kg for aircraft starting nicad)
>
> If you want nicad in your car, use STM5-100 as advised in their
technical
> manual and you will never regret it during their +1500 cycles life.
> you still have to protect your aluminium box though...
>
> just my "aircraft starting cells user" advise...been there done that
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Sunday, March 26, 2006 7:14 AM
> Subject: Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
>
>
> > Having used both BB600's and STM-100's, I've got to tell you that
there is
> > very little comparison. The STMs are way better. Of course I
like them
> > both better than lead.
> >
> > My motorcycle had a real 30 - 40 mile range with 228lbs of
STM-100s and
> I'm
> > lucky to get half that with 160lbs of BB600's, plus the watering
system on
> > the STMs is hard to beat. Either way, a nice stiff pack of NiCads is
> great.
> > I was enjoying that feeling today as I was out riding. They are
rock
> > solid until they finally poop out.
> >
> >
> > damon
> >
> >
> > >From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >Subject: Re: Putting NiCDs in an aluminum box
> > >Date: Sat, 25 Mar 2006 23:09:38 -0500
> > >
> > >>However, the commercial battery boxes I see for nicads never use
> > >>aluminum. They are always stainless steel or nickel (which don't
corrode
> > >>in KOH). Is there any special reason why you don't use one of them?
> > >
> > >Well, the truck already has a very nice battery box :-) Seriously
> speaking
> > >it's a very nice US_Electricar design and mounted to the frame in
a very
> > >solid and secure proper manner.
> > >
> > >There is also the issue of "this might not really work". BB600's
might be
> > >too much of a pain, the energy density might be too low, they
might not
> > >equal strings of Hawkers.
> > >
> > >I've been working up to this test by trying the BB600's in the
Elec-trak,
> > >followed by a parallel string, followed by blowing more snow than
heck
> this
> > >winter to see how they could stand up to use. They seem good,
this is the
> > >next step.
> > >
> > >I think I am going to do this as sort of a "pilot project" for a
year or
> > >so. If NiCDs turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread
then I
> > >will sell the BB600's next year and spend serious money for 50
STM-100's.
> > >If they turn out to be dogs, then I will pull them out and
install a set
> of
> > >Hawker 42ah batteries. If they turn out to do everything I want
and not
> > >need much attention then I will pull the Al battery box and
replace it
> with
> > >a steel box subsystem capable of holding 500 BB600 batteries somehow.
> > >
> > >I'm hoping the vents, the POR15 paint, and a tarp based liner
will hold
> for
> > >a year or so in the meantime.
> > >
> > >Chris
> > >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Raise your hand if you have a fast street driven EV? That's what I
thought.
Minimum drag is important. For maximum performance on the street, the
factory specs are good. For minimum drag on the street, zero rules the
day. Nobody is going to flip over an EV on the street with zero camber
and toe. Why? Because the camber specs for most cars are from slightly
positive to slightly negative in range. Zero is located within that
range.
Toe also has to do with braking as the brake strut rod, or equivelant,
is being compressed into it's bushings during braking, causing a bit
of additional toe out. So a bit of static toe in is used to
compensate. If you have regenerative braking then you won't have much
in the way of toe out during braking because of motor braking through
the rear tires.
90% of what brings your steering back to center without your help is
the built in geometry of the caster angle. The other 10% is from power
or manual steering, and a bit from the camber.
Many mechanics are lazy. They set the camber and won't spend the time
tweaking the caster into spec, even though they are the same
adjustable hardware. Twist both upper A arm bolts in the same
direction and you only effect the camber. Twist them in opposite
directions and you affect the caster.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve wrote:
> Weren't the GM EV1 controllers crushed with the EV1's? Are they
> available at all?
The GE (General Electric) EV-1 controllers were made in the 1980's. They
control standard DC brushed series motors. Thousands were made, and
since they are very reliable, many are still in use today.
The GM (General Motors) EV-1 electric cars were made in the late 1990's.
They used a special 3-phase AC induction motor, and their controller was
a custom electronic inverter built by Hughes Aircraft (a division of
GM). Few if any of these escaped being crushed when GM had all the
EV-1's destroyed.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave, seems as though you are getting some conflicting information about
camber and toe. Maybe best to check out some books on the subject to ensure
you do not do anything dangerous.
Fred Phun - how to make your car handle
Milliken & Milliken - race car engineering and design
Carroll Smith - the "to win" series
These are all highly regaurded books in the race car community. The authors
are all experts in their field.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of David McWethy
Sent: March 25, 2006 9:28 PM
To: EVList
Subject: camber
Seems to me I saw something about improving less rolling resistance by front
end alignment that zeroes camber. Any comments on this? Or is it just
changing camber to accomodate different motor weight?
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm playing with my first Iota DC-DC and wonder about the "fast charge
plug" they supply.
On the old Todd converters it had a pair of terminals that we used to
put an ignition controlled relay across. When you had the key on, the
Todd put out 14.2 volts and with key off it put out 13.6.
I see the Iota has a similar setup and wonder if anyone has done this?
The Iota has two loops coming out of the phone type jack. Has anyone
figured out if both loops have to be switched in order to change the
output voltage?
I know they sell a fancy three stage charger upgrade that plugs into
that port but I was hoping to just do the high low voltage switching
with a single relay.
BFN
Randy
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dale Curren wrote:
> So how would I get started on this? I suppose I need to buy a shunt,
> v-f chip and a clock. Where would you recommend I get those?
The clock is easy. Any recent clock with hands that runs on a 1.5v cell
has the same el-cheapo $2 clock movement. Buy the cheapest one you can
find. Or you can buy just the movements from places like American
Science and Surplus.
There are lots of V-F chips. I happen to like the Analog Devices AD537.
It's an older chip and so more expensive, but very simple to use, low
power, and it contains everything needed (supply voltage regulator,
precision reference, temperature compensator, and input amplifier so it
can read 50mv shunt voltage directly). You can get them from any Analog
Devices distributor. Digikey isn't the cheapest, but fast and easy (and
will have all the rest of the parts, too, like the 4040 divider,
resistors, capacitors, etc.).
You don't really need a precision shunt, as this won't be a precision
circuit. Real shunts are a 0.1% accurate temperature-compensated
precision resistor; they sell for $20 and up. I'd use a length of copper
wire, of a size and length chosen to have the desired resistance. A wire
table will tell you resistance per foot for any size wire. Often, you
can use a piece of wire that's already in your EV.
Is this enough to get you started?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
damon henry wrote:
> Well, I guess I will just chalk it up to my emeter's personality.
If you have just a simple, clean, pair of wires from the E-meter to the
shunt, and connect them together at the shunt (i.e. put them on the same
side screw terminal on the shunt), and it STILL reads some current, then
the E-meter itself is bad. It means the E-meter senses a voltage when
there really is no voltage.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
