EV Digest 5324
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: Battery sound monitoring
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Battery Pack Heating
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Off-the-shelf multiple battery voltage display sought
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Battery sound monitoring
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 1209 or 1221B parts
by Electro Automotive <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) EV Performance
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Taking the plunge (buying my first EV)
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
by "John F. Norton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Battery sound monitoring
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Dual Motors to FWD axles
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) 3kw genset for $315
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Yes.
When charging my first (test) battery in cycle-test at 10A to 15V
(which were the old limits until I noticed the sticker on the
battery reducing the max voltage) I could hear a faint sound that
I recognised from flooded batteries, inside the AGM.
After several of these cycles the sides had swollen up a little
and I think that I have heard that battery vent sometimes.
I am sure to keep the 10A charge current below 13.7V per battery
now and the "regen peaks" of 100A that so nicely wake up batteries
are only allowed when the SOC is below 75%
You will need a contact microphone and a processor to remove all
other ambient noise.
NOTE: during driving the battery better not boil, as that means they
are over 100 C!
I'd expect 'gassing' during charging, so you should cut back charging
as the driver is not present (sleeping).
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:16 PM
To: Mike Phillips
Subject: Battery sound monitoring
Yet moer instrumentation...
If a battery gets to the point of boiling/gassing, you should be able
to hear it right? How about a sonic detector running through a
comparator to turn on an LED or something to let the driver know the
battery is hot inside enough to boil electrolyte?
I've heard car batterys boiling after a massive overcharge, but not
VRLM's. Can you in fact hear it?
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
Don't lose the truck,
just make sure that all your strings have equal
internal resistance (so they share load) or aim
for a single string next time,
that way you lose more than half the problem. (IMHO)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 5:08 PM
To: Roger Stockton
Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys inside
the car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more
Hondas. One of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but
still a two door version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've lost
track of the Tzeros as most have been sold. They still had a lead acid
car down there. I know one Lion Tzero car that is up here around
Silicon Valley somewhere.
Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise this
is a 14 second car.
If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have kept
putting it in their lead acid cars.
One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He drives
his car until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery under
light load. Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k
from a pack in his daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k is
routine in their cars.
These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to investigate
and build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is
the magic ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k
miles per pack makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive. That
is providing that I don't sell the truck first ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not
> > what a typical user generates in daily driving. This is
> > what I have observed riding in these cars.
>
> So which "cars" are you referring to? Alan's original (and only?) CRX
> running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas? I thought there
> were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them is running
> a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
>
> If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical in
> these cars?
>
> > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's
> > battery management has great merit in making battery
> > life all it can be.
>
> I'm a great believer in BMS. You have provided nothing to suggest to me
> that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life in a
> cyclic application. My belief is that those who operate their batteries
> at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute greatest range
> per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to still achieve a decent
> life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated temperature on the
> battery internals.
>
> > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get from a
> > pack in terms of cycle life.
>
> There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I doubt
> anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the factory
> service could include anything from swapping out weak modules before the
> leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack, without the
> user being any the wiser.
>
> > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
>
> Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa (Chevy
> Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs. I suppose I should be
> cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of us can
> learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't help but
> caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries suggests
> that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising battery life.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Robert,
No Porsche expert but let me share my comments:
The handling will not improve with the light truck,
on the contrary.
I wish I could have found a sedan iso a truck for an EV,
but this is what I could afford and thought it was a
challenge to bring back on the road.
That worked out well for me.
Maybe my second EV (and first conversion) will be a BMW.
But it is temporarily in daily use and I am way too busy
to work on it as well.
BTW, there are many Porsche's in the EV Album.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 4:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
I would really like to get 80 miles in the Porsche 911 and I could fit
26 110ah AGM batteries inside.
Looks like 8 in the gas tank area, 6 across the back seat, 2 on the
floor and 10 in the engine compartment.
The battery weight would be 27x72lbs=1944lbs. I think the awesome
porsche handling will go out the window with a final weight over
3800lbs. I'm now thinking of the small light pickup instead. The extra
weight should be easier to deal with.
Any Porsche experts out there? I hate to sell this car.
-Robert
Cor van de Water wrote:
> Hi Robert,
>
> Yeah, I was positively surprised with this range.
> The airo-mods will have their impact, but I would
> not dare to guess how much.
> "Hearsay" suggestes that you can improve 10 - 20%
> the other 80% difference between a 150 Wh/mi car and
> my truck is probably the doubled weight and all the
> consequences thereof and the frontal area that is
> traditionally one of the issues of a truck.
> (Even in this truck I feel the sideways sweep from
> a large SUV or truck passing me in the next lane.
> They are litterally pushing against the wind,
> instead of cutting through it.)
>
> I heard that removal of the tail gate or even a tonneau
> can worsen the airodynamics, iso improving it.
> The bed is an almost undisturbed air bubble (fallen leaves
> stay in the bed for weeks of driving around at highway speed)
>
> If you would find a compact built car that can handle the
> weight of my pack (and I think you are on the right track
> with a Porsche) then you should be able to achieve below
> 200 Wh/mi consumption mainly from airodynamic improvements.
> Keeping your speed limited (difficult in a Porsche!)
> should give you about 100 miles of range without killing
> your pack (80% DOD, not empty).
> So, your attempted 80 miles range is still doable, though
> you may want to think about battery heaters to keep them
> above 60 deg in winter, otherwise you may not make it when
> you start with a cold car.
>
> Note that battery heating can be connected to the charger
> input, running from the grid, as the batteries should
> survive the hour in the cold when you insulate them.
>
> Since you do not intend to race, the heat production should
> not be a large concern.
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
> Sent: Tuesday, April 04, 2006 1:27 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: How many amps driving my EV?
>
>
> Cor,
> Thanks for the data, 55 miles is impressive in a vehicle of that size.
> The difference in drain between 55 and 68 mph is surprising.
>
> How much do you think you can improve your range by doing aerodynamic
> changes?
>
> For example,
> bed pan underneath to improve air flow.
> removing tail gate
> custom shaped rear shell.
>
> -Robert
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
>
>> (In the spirit of sharing actual driving consumption to
>> help battery sizing - I get many questions like that)
>> My vehicle:
>> I have a 1994 Chevy S-10 (light truck)
>> US Electricar conversion, see also:
>> http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/uselectricar/
>> and I measured the amps while doing
>> constant speed on the Freeway.
>> (higher tire pressure and a break-in
>> period have reduced amps from previous runs)
>> NOTE: it was drizzling during this trip,
>> which may result in slightly lower tire friction.
>>
>> Driving down Freeway 101 at 56 MPH:
>> 55 - 60Amp at 312V
>> (306 - 334 WattHour/mile)
>>
>> Going to max throttle, reaching 68 MPH:
>> 100 - 110Amp. (almost twice the power!)
>> (450 - 500 Wh/mile)
>>
>> I'll stay with 55-60 MPH whenever I can.
>>
>> (Taking off uses 140 - 200Amp and reaching
>> 55 - 60 MPH in this 5000 lbs truck takes
>> about 30 - 40 seconds. Not fast but adequate
>> and I can keep up with most traffic but the
>> gas guzzlers. Suits me perfectly.)
>>
>> BTW - Last Saturday I beat my previous max distance
>> on one charge by going 55 miles and still having 315V
>> resting voltage (12.1V per battery)
>> I did notice my acceleration was more limited in the end,
>> the controller has a configurable low voltage limit, which
>> is set to 273V (10.5V per battery) and it will cut output
>> when this limit is reached, so I will be unable to kill
>> my batteries as long as they stay balanced.
>> I was able to maintain speed, but hard acceleration quickly
>> resulted in jerking, a sign of reaching the limit, so it
>> took longer to get up to speed.
>> My estimation is that I was down to 30-35% SOC, based on
>> the numbers for the resting voltage and the approximately
>> 1 Ah per mile (312V pack) of this truck.
>>
>> Note: this pack has 110Ah batteries, 1 hour rating is 80Ah
>> so 65-70% of that is 52-56 Ah.
>>
>> Note2: I still have the idea that my battery wiring has more
>> series resistance than the internal resistance of the
>> batteries, which means that the 273V limit is NOT 10.5V at
>> the battery, dependent on the current.
>> I need to measure the difference as I suspect the wiring,
>> connectors and contactor to add too many milliOhms, so the
>> batteries actually need to supply more current than when
>> the resistance is lower (more volts => more power =>
>> shorter acceleration OR I can trade the higher volts for
>> lower amps to get the same accel). I may also gain range by
>> reducing this 'waste' and avoid problems with overheating
>> cabling. (most is only 2 AWG)
>> (My voltage/current measurement make me believe that the
>> internal resistance as seen by the controller is almost
>> 300 milliOhm while the batteries are specified at 4 mOhm,
>> so the 26 in series should only contribute 104 milliOhm.
>> Unless the time it takes to go from acceleration to braking
>> and back to acceleration also allows the batteries to have
>> internal changes in electrolyte (stratification problem in
>> AGMs? Lee?)
>> But since I see a discrepancy of some 196 milliOhms, I want
>> to check the connections at the controller; the contactor;
>> the wiring to the battery box and my own wiring inside the
>> battery box, although I believe that should contribute less
>> than 50 milliOhm according my own measurements while doing
>> the installation of the batteries.
>>
>> One check point can be to bring one battery's actual
>> voltage out and measure it with a DVM while doing a launch
>> and see how far it drops.
>> Then do a measurement of the voltage across the entire
>> battery pack, then the voltage across the contactor and
>> cabling....
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Cor van de Water
>> Systems Architect
>> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
>> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
OK, so lets make the assumption that there must be some kind of gear
reduction to drive the wheels. We will also assume that you want to do this
cheap and easy.
You have a few alternatives
(1) use two motors and some sort of gear reduction. I am not sure of many
OEM solutions you can re-use, so maybe you can build a chain drive or belt
drive setup. You will have to use some half shafts with CV joints to
provide for suspension and steering/
(2) use a single motor and some sort of gear reduction + differential. The
easiest would be to get a used Geo transaxle, the halfshafts, then get an
adapter for the motor and controller.
(3) Others?
My guess is that option (2) will be the easiest, at that it leverages
existing parts that are already made for the Geo. Option (1) will require
you to build parts. If you want to build something different then option
(1) would be fun to do - but be prepared to do some fabrication and some
machining.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jmygann
Sent: April 5, 2006 10:02 AM
To: Don Cameron
Subject: Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
Currently driving a 48 Volt 90 Geo Metro with E-volks kit and alltrax.
Have been offered a 96 metro 4 door automatic with no eng or trans so I am
looking at doing another low budget /low speed city car.
Looking for a simple way to put an electric motor/motors in it .....
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You need to consider a number of things:
>
> 1. You must drive both wheels, not just one side 2. if you use a
> single motor, you must use a differential (so
going around
> a corner the inside wheel will drive slower than the outside) 3. if
> you use two motors (one for each wheel), you will not need a
> differential 4. you must have some kind of gear reduction (e.g. 4:1
> or 5:1) or
else the
> motor will not be able to generate enough torque
>
> Keep in mind that common rear ends are a combination of a
differential and a
> gear reduction.
>
> In the example you cited, the person used a single motor with a
> differential **and** gear reduction. You can use two motors
without a
> differential, but you will still need gear reduction. If they had
two
> motors, and wanted to drop top speed from 53mph to 45mph, they
would still
> need gear reduction of some sort.
>
>
> Looking at the Etek (from evparts.com) it runs at 3000RPM. If you
ran with
> **no** gear reduction and 175/R13 tires, you would be going
215mph!!
> However, the Etek does not have the torque nor the power to make
this
> happen. If you ran with a gear reduction of 4.8:1 you would get a
speed of
> 45mph at 3000rpm. Yet you must consider: are these motors
powerful enough
> to move a geo metro at 45mph? Up hills? Against wind?
Accelerating
> "quickly" from a stop?
>
>
> Maybe, as a guide, look at what others are using for motors in Geo
Metros
> (Solectria, ElectroAuto, CanEv) this will give you a good idea of
the amount
> of torque and power you will need from two etek motors. Search
their web
> sites, search the archives.
>
>
>
> So what is your project? A geo metro conversion? Do you have a
donor car
> yet?
>
>
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, please report your experiments this will be interesting to see!
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: April 5, 2006 5:08 PM
To: Roger Stockton
Subject: Re: Battery Pack Heating
There may be more, but ACP had Alan's orginal CRX with batterys inside the
car like most converted ev's. Then they built at least two more Hondas. One
of which is a CRX the other is just slightly larger but still a two door
version. Then there is the Saturn as well. I've lost track of the Tzeros as
most have been sold. They still had a lead acid car down there. I know one
Lion Tzero car that is up here around Silicon Valley somewhere.
Typical is 220 wh/mi with no kindness to acceleration. I promise this is a
14 second car.
If heating was not germaine to the packs life, ACP would not have kept
putting it in their lead acid cars.
One of the ACP owner/drivers doesn't watch for DOD at all. He drives his car
until the monitoring system shows 11 volts per battery under light load.
Which is about 40-50 amps in these cars. He gets 20-30k from a pack in his
daily driver. He has told me that getting 20-30k is routine in their cars.
These guys plus the NREL report are enough proof for me to investigate and
build thermal management into my truck. Maybe having Optimas is the magic
ingredient, but I have to do something constructive as 5k miles per pack
makes a 440 powered Chrysler look cheap to drive. That is providing that I
don't sell the truck first ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Mike Phillips [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> > 150 wh/mi is at very low speed on level ground. It's not what a
> > typical user generates in daily driving. This is what I have
> > observed riding in these cars.
>
> So which "cars" are you referring to? Alan's original (and only?) CRX
> running Optimas or one or more Tzero's running Optimas? I thought
> there were only a couple Tzeros built and that at least one of them is
> running a near-7000 cell Li pack, not lead-acid.
>
> If 150Wh/mi is not typical, what have you observed to be typical in
> these cars?
>
> > These are the weekly clues I get that tell me ACP's battery
> > management has great merit in making battery life all it can be.
>
> I'm a great believer in BMS. You have provided nothing to suggest to
> me that heating the batteries does anything to improve battery life in
> a cyclic application. My belief is that those who operate their
> batteries at elevated temperatures do so to achieve the absolute
> greatest range per charge, and that a good BMS may allow them to still
> achieve a decent life *despite* the detrimental effects of elevated
> temperature on the battery internals.
>
> > I'd like to see what lead acid Ranger and EV1 owners use to get from a
> > pack in terms of cycle life.
>
> There is no such thing as an EV1 owner; EV1's were leased, and I doubt
> anyone will ever know what the true battery life was since the factory
> service could include anything from swapping out weak modules before
> the leasee ever noticed them to swapping out the entire pack, without
> the user being any the wiser.
>
> > What kind of EV do you own Roger?
>
> Not sure why that is relevant, but mine is a 120V Suzuki Forsa (Chevy
> Sprint) conversion presently loaded with YTs. I suppose I should be
> cheering you on to go ahead and cook a set of YTs so the rest of us
> can learn on your dime what to do with our packs ;^>, but I can't help
> but caution you when everything we know about lead acid batteries
> suggests that elevated temperatures are at odds with maximising battery
life.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why not use a transaxle out of an older sab. The engine is bolted in facing
north-south instead of east west. That way the length of the dual motor is
not a problem.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:46 PM
Subject: RE: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
OK, so lets make the assumption that there must be some kind of gear
reduction to drive the wheels. We will also assume that you want to do
this
cheap and easy.
You have a few alternatives
(1) use two motors and some sort of gear reduction. I am not sure of many
OEM solutions you can re-use, so maybe you can build a chain drive or belt
drive setup. You will have to use some half shafts with CV joints to
provide for suspension and steering/
(2) use a single motor and some sort of gear reduction + differential.
The
easiest would be to get a used Geo transaxle, the halfshafts, then get an
adapter for the motor and controller.
(3) Others?
My guess is that option (2) will be the easiest, at that it leverages
existing parts that are already made for the Geo. Option (1) will require
you to build parts. If you want to build something different then option
(1) would be fun to do - but be prepared to do some fabrication and some
machining.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jmygann
Sent: April 5, 2006 10:02 AM
To: Don Cameron
Subject: Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles - Anyone done it ??
Currently driving a 48 Volt 90 Geo Metro with E-volks kit and alltrax.
Have been offered a 96 metro 4 door automatic with no eng or trans so I am
looking at doing another low budget /low speed city car.
Looking for a simple way to put an electric motor/motors in it .....
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
You need to consider a number of things:
1. You must drive both wheels, not just one side 2. if you use a
single motor, you must use a differential (so
going around
a corner the inside wheel will drive slower than the outside) 3. if
you use two motors (one for each wheel), you will not need a
differential 4. you must have some kind of gear reduction (e.g. 4:1
or 5:1) or
else the
motor will not be able to generate enough torque
Keep in mind that common rear ends are a combination of a
differential and a
gear reduction.
In the example you cited, the person used a single motor with a
differential **and** gear reduction. You can use two motors
without a
differential, but you will still need gear reduction. If they had
two
motors, and wanted to drop top speed from 53mph to 45mph, they
would still
need gear reduction of some sort.
Looking at the Etek (from evparts.com) it runs at 3000RPM. If you
ran with
**no** gear reduction and 175/R13 tires, you would be going
215mph!!
However, the Etek does not have the torque nor the power to make
this
happen. If you ran with a gear reduction of 4.8:1 you would get a
speed of
45mph at 3000rpm. Yet you must consider: are these motors
powerful enough
to move a geo metro at 45mph? Up hills? Against wind?
Accelerating
"quickly" from a stop?
Maybe, as a guide, look at what others are using for motors in Geo
Metros
(Solectria, ElectroAuto, CanEv) this will give you a good idea of
the amount
of torque and power you will need from two etek motors. Search
their web
sites, search the archives.
So what is your project? A geo metro conversion? Do you have a
donor car
yet?
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
How is this system coming?
Mark Ward wrote:
Actually I have a similiar plan only with a mobile computer that will be controlling
most aspects of my vehicle. Since I will already have OBD information being fed
(includes RPM's voltage on 12v side and other data) I am also running battery
monitoring. This will have the effect of showing a graphical display of the battery
levels and performing range calculations at the same time. I will be using a touch
panel 8" TFT display that will serve as the main interface. This system will
ultimately also control:
Shift points for the automatic transmission
Vehicle security & starting lock
Environment (heater and ac)
Interactive Voice recognition system
Music and sound
I already have the computer and some of the OBD interface components. The rest
are some home brew circuits I will make that will interface with the USB ports.
Ahh to have the funding to do all I would like to do!!
Mark Ward
St. Charles, MO
95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
www.saabrina.blogspot.com
---- Myles Twete <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Graphic equalizer for battery monitoring...I love it!
I just recycled one of these...doh!
Lee Hart suggested:
My graphic equalizer has 10 bands for each of the 2 stereo channels;
thus it can monitor 20 batteries. The fluorescent display has
10 levels
for each of the 20 bands. There is a "level" control for each channel,
so it can be calibrated right from the dash.
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Mark Grasser wrote:
> Why not use a transaxle out of an older Saab. The engine is bolted
> in facing north-south instead of east west. That way the length of
> the dual motor is not a problem.
I used a Saab 96 differential in my 2nd EV. Front wheel drive, normal
north-south motor axis. I used it without a transmission; motor coupled
directly to the pinion with no clutch. However, I didn't have a low
enough gear ratio; if I remember correctly, it was something like
3.73:1.
So, I replaced it with an aluminum-cased Dana differential with a 5.17:1
ratio. It was also setup for half-shafts on each side, and a north-south
motor orientation. That worked relatively well with a series DC motor,
and later a 3-phase AC motor without clutch or transmission.
Another candidate would be a 1965-69 Chevy Corvair differential, with or
without transmission, clutch, or torque converter. The Corvair
differential is a square box, with flat mounting surfaces on BOTH front
and back ends, and a hollow splined pinion shaft that you can couple to
from either or both ends. It would allow two motors, one from both ends.
In the stock setup, going from rear to front, you had the engine, clutch
or torque converter, differential, and transmission in front! Due to low
production rates, the 1966-69 Corvair transmissions and differentials
had the same internals as all the other big Chevy V8's of the time.
Thus, they are quite strong.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Mike Phillips wrote:
> If a battery gets to the point of boiling/gassing, you should be
> able to hear it right? How about a sonic detector running through
> a comparator to turn on an LED or something to let the driver know
> the battery is hot inside enough to boil electrolyte? Can you in
> fact hear it?
Yes, you can hear it; but it's very quiet. Your surroundings have to be
extremely quiet or they will drown it out.
A better plan may be to go back to the original idea of VRLA (Valve
Regulated Lead Acid; what we now call AGMs). When the battery begins
gassing it's full. The gassing makes the internal pressure rise. Use a
switch or pressure transducer to detect the pressure increase to shut
off the charger. It worked well; but manufacturers didn't want to use
expensive pressure sensors.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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At 02:32 PM 4/5/2006, you wrote:
I need front end cards, cases, power sections etc for Curtis
controllers 36-48v and up. Working or not but not totally
destroyed. . Contact me off list please. If anyone is aware of
Curtis parts suppliers with excess stock please let me know or if
anyone working at Curtis has an idea what will happen to all their
stock please let me know. I heard the Curtis controllers are not
being serviced by Curtis now & may not be produced anymore..
Curtis contrrollers are now being serviced by Flight Systems
Industrial Products (FSIP). I sincerely doubt Curtis is going to
discontinue making these models, since they sell gazillions of them
industrially. They haven't produced the B version in quite some
time, as it was replaced by the C, which has better low speed/high
current internal protection.
Shari Prange
Electro Automotive POB 1113 Felton CA 95018-1113 Telephone 831-429-1989
http://www.electroauto.com [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Electric Car Conversion Kits * Components * Books * Videos * Since 1979
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> Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
>
> Any Porsche experts out there? I hate to sell this car.
>
> -Robert
>
Robert
I'm doing a 944, similar but different. My reasons should apply to your 911.
The car is well made, it will handle the additional load of a reasonable pack.
I'm planning on
around 1000 lbs of cells.
Very good brakes!
Very aerodynamic.
Reasonable weight, I hope to be under 3000 lbs when complete. Not the lightest,
but...
Fully galvanized body. Will not rust out from under me, even in New England.
(At least not in the
next decade.)
It's a car that will attract attention, and I plan on being an EV evangelist.
I can replace almost any part I need from eBay for a good price.
It's a car I will like driving. Although, getting in and out of a low car is
getting tough on my
old joints.
If the body is in good shape, I'd go for it. But I would cut back on the pack.
Do you know the GVW
of the car? See how it works with a smaller pack before you load it down. What
are you looking
for, range? performance? Do you plan on using it for a daily commuter?
I have a 34 mile round trip I'm shooting for, should be within my reach. I'm
keeping the clutch
and transaxle. There's a guy down in Florida whose done at least one 911, you
should be able to
find him on the net.
Good luck
Dave Cover (in CT)
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In all the discussion about performance recently I was curious, I had
been gentle since my EVent (blown up motor for those that don't know)
So on my way home, I was coming out of the target parking lot and needed
to get accross 3 lanes, I was already rolling in second and floored it.
OK, so I can spin the tires with 750 lbs over the rear axle! The pack
was about 40% down and I was immediatly seeing red lights in my mirror.
Thank god it was just the low voltage LED's on the rear battery pack (is
that normal for excide orbitals and rudman regs?).
The car is not as peppy as it was and I think the throttle may not be
makeing 100%, I need to check the pot
I also thing the tires are to old and dry to judge breaking traction on,
but I wnated to run this question past the speed freaks.
If there is something wrong that is causeing the car to accelerate
slower than before, what do these symptoms indicate.
In the first 1/2 of the throttle it feels like the pack is almost dead,
when it is fresh.; ie it doesn;t seem to draw the amps requested.
In the second half of the throttle, as the rpm's pick up it seems to
climb in torque or rate of rpm climb, not go to sleep, I shift long
before I feel the "go to sleep point"
In this test it came up quick, but I got out of the throttle until it
hooked up then continued, it seemed as if the acceleration curve had a
flat which I interpret as the throttle not going to 100%.
Starting in 3rd was ok, now it is blah, I now shift down to 2nd at every
light and upshift to 3rd, before I could drive around in 3rd.
Commutator is not sooty black but very dark
http://www.morgancarbon.com/technicalsupport/patina.htm
darker than picture 2 with a tiny amount of blotchy like third
picture in the middle of each comm bar, but more uniform.
Things to check
Zilla settings,motor timing, sources of higher than normal resistance
Oh, the setup, 24 orbitals connected with 2/0 super-flex and 2/0 from
zilla 1k to motor
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Would there be any advantage in using a geo transaxle but removing
the gears, clutch,flywheel etc. and just using the geo transaxle
for a diferential ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> <<< Currently driving a 48 Volt 90 Geo Metro with E-volks kit and
> alltrax.
>
> Have been offered a 96 metro 4 door automatic with no eng or trans
> so I am looking at doing another low budget /low speed city car.
>
> Looking for a simple way to put an electric motor/motors in
it .....>>>
>
> Somehow, I think trying to mount motors and their individual
reduction gearing
> to each CV would be both more complicated *and* more expensive
than just
> mounting a new tranny with one motor.
>
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Congratulations Todd!
This must be the Force in Pennsylvania? If so, looks nice. Where are you
located? I actually got inspired by a photo on that listing for how to
add a cord connection under the gas flap.
I vaguely thought of bringing mine to Joliet, but it is 13+ hours drive
each way. So I'll be curious to hear what it is like to take down the
drag strip (even with the White Zombie laughing).
Todd Martin wrote:
... this weekend I'll be travelling 800 miles each way to pick up
my first EV, a 1997 Solectria Force courtesy of Ebay.
<snip>
I'll be showboating at the AFV expo this May in Joliet IL. I
> wonder if the White Zombie has ever competed against a Solectria
> Force before? If not, I am sure he is quaking in his boots with
> the thought of competing his little DC motors against the raw power
> of an AC induction motor! (insert laugh here).
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
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At 12:28 AM 4/5/2006, you wrote:
I asked the question in regards to a low speed vehicle (45mph)
One owner had stated ...
"The original transaxle was an automatic, so I did not use it. In
place of the transaxle, I installed a differential gearbox with a 1"
input shaft, which was coupled to the Etek. The differential output
shafts were coupled to adapters to accept the CV shafts. The
differential gear ratio was 4:1 and the tires were 175/80R13. Top
speed was about 53 MPH on a level road with a full charge. We only
needed a 45 MPH maximum top speed and a 30 mile round trip range."
So, that was with an ETEK and an Alltrax 7245 at 48 volts pushing a
lightened Dodge Aries.
So I wondered if one could use 2 ETEKs or maybe better 2 brushless
Marselectric (etek clone) http://tinyurl.com/mjvem motors
for better performance. And could the differential gearbox be
eliminated ?? and one motor running each front wheel say on a geo
metro ??
Could one controller be sed ??
Comments ???
This is interesting - I like the ETEK motor as an electric motor for
a lot of reasons - it produces a lot of power for its weight, but
figured no way it could drive a real automobile. I have seen them
advertised for use in GEM cars, but that's 1200 lbs and 25 mph. The
idea that one of those could drive an Aries - even a lightened one -
at 50 mph is pretty impressive, even if it probably takes a couple
minutes to get going that fast.
I am a Subaru guy and like the old school cars of the 80s. They are
relatively plentiful and cheap - heavier than most cars their size
b/c they are 4wd. But I was wondering about using an ETEK to drive
each wheel - take out the whole transmission, and then you'd need
gear reduction for each motor. I found some guy on the web whose
site said he was doing that with an Insight, and then pointed to a
chain and sprocket gear reduction system that looked a little 1915 to me.
A lot of ATV's use CVT's - not sure whether the CVT's on the ATV's
are "real" or just go-kart type friction clutches (near as I can tell
they are real), but it seems to me that something like that with a
final 4 or 5:1 gear reduction on it could drive each wheel. Not sure
how many controllers it would take to run that, but at 48v, it
wouldn't have to be a huge one, or two. And I don't think it would
be all that hard to make it so that you launch on all 4 motors, and
turn 2 off at speed. It would get rid of most of the driveline
losses you see in the AWD transmissions, too.
That's a lot of engineering to do, though. Knowing that 1 ETEK can
move a car down the road, then a little easier would be 2 ETEKS, one
driving the front and one driving the rear differential. You would
have to put a Subaru rear end in the front to drive the front wheels,
but that's doable.
Going back to the drag racing dual motor thread, that wouldn't be a
bad drag car with 8 inch motors, either - the Fuji R185 rear end is
available with LSD and is found in a lot of import drag cars - the
Datsun 510's use that rear end, too, it will take a lot of
torque. Point one forward, one rearward, you have 4 patches of
friction with the same power, plus no need to mechanically couple the
motors.
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I would say that this will work at least for the floodies.
And a nice robust unit may be had in the form of the knock sensors used
in newer cars, it is a microphone they feed 5v to ground and the average
current is the degree of knocking.
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Good idea. Having a transaxle with no clutch and a fixed gear is entirely
possible, if you have enough RPM range, torque and power for the speeds you
would like to go.
For example, the AC Propulsion uses a Honda Transaxle with a fixed gear,
just as you suggest. I "think" there is no clutch as well. However their
motor has a very wide powerband: 0-11,000RPM.
In your case, a 1995 Geo Metro has a tire size of P165/70R13 which is 22"
diameter. With a 4:1 transmission ratio, your speeds would be:
RPM km/h mph
500 13 8
1000 26 16
2000 53 33
3000 79 49
4000 105 66
5000 132 82
This is pretty good, as the ADC 9" top RPM is 5000RPM - but watch out - we
don't consider if the the motor has enough power to make the car go 82mph.
Nor did we consider if the motor has enough torque at 4:1 to give us
reasonable acceleration. There are others who are better experienced with
these motors to comment. (I am known as an AC guy - for obvious reasons)
How about a higher ratio, this will give better acceleration and sacrifice
top end speed. For a 5:1 we get:
RPM km/h mph
500 11 7
1000 21 13
2000 42 26
3000 63 39
4000 84 53
5000 105 66
I have driven a Geo Metro with an 8" ADC, and 96V battery pack. I found
that I needed to use both 2nd and 3rd for city/highway driving. YMMV.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of jmygann
Sent: April 5, 2006 8:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Dual Motors to FWD axles
Would there be any advantage in using a geo transaxle but removing the
gears, clutch,flywheel etc. and just using the geo transaxle for a
diferential ?
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
> <<< Currently driving a 48 Volt 90 Geo Metro with E-volks kit and
> alltrax.
>
> Have been offered a 96 metro 4 door automatic with no eng or trans so
> I am looking at doing another low budget /low speed city car.
>
> Looking for a simple way to put an electric motor/motors in
it .....>>>
>
> Somehow, I think trying to mount motors and their individual
reduction gearing
> to each CV would be both more complicated *and* more expensive
than just
> mounting a new tranny with one motor.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An ad on one of the discount-store fliers mixed in with the weekly
junk-mail has a 100 lb generator rated at 3000 watts for $315
including tax.
I will have to go to the store and see what I would be buying but
the small picture shows only a dual 110VAC 20 amp out and a
12 VDC terminals. The genset looks like:
http://www.centralonlinesales.com/show_Product.asp?ID=1616
I could mount it on the tire rack that I have on the rear of my
S-10 Blazer. I may also want to mount a jerry can for extra fuel.
-First I am wondering if this generator is one of the types
that was POSTed as a PFC killer?
Since at some point (a year of more) I may have to move to
where the rent is affordable, and where there is no public EV
charging, I may need to use the generator mounted on the back of
my EV to get back home.
The odd part is the rating. If the 12 VDC output is 10 amps, that
is .12 Kw. And the 110 VAC duplex outlet is likely connected to
the same 20 amp breaker which is 2.2 Kw. That is a total of
2.32Kw. What about the other .68Kw?
Running my PFC-30 off a 20 amp 110 VAC outlet will not use all its
capabilities, but the lower charge current is offset by the lighter
genset weight. Mounting it on the tire rack means I do not have to
have a trailer. That reduces both weight and drag.
Any views on this topic are welcome.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
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