EV Digest 5331
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Battery Pack Heating - Optima Hawker links
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Curtis 1231-8601c at nominal 144 volts ok?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Toyota Yaris replaces the Echo, conversion candidate?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Multi charger.
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by bruce parmenter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Multi charger.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: 3kw genset for $315
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Multi charger.
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence,
I don't understand what you are saying. Better than what? I'm happy
with overnight charging. Why are you bringing up charging in one hour?
-Robert
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
The other option is to put in as many agm's as possible & spend your
money on the biggest charger you can or two of them. There are some
people that can do 100 miles with one one hour charge. That might
work better. It's not the range it's the charging time that is the
problem. Lawrence........
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Baertsch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:00 PM
Subject: Re: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
It is a 1980 Targa 911 SC. The suspension in the back is quite
adjustable so that would be fine. I'm concerned about the front
suspension which is not designed for a heavy load.
The ride is already very hard and I'm not sure what will happen when
I load it up.
I think Lithiums would cost over $10K so I'm going to wait until my
first set of AGMs wear out for advanced chemistry. I think batteries
will be much better is 3-4 years.
There is a Toyota Pickup (2500lbs stock/5260lbs converted) on the
evalbum with 40 T105 Trogan (6v 225ah) batteries that claims over
120 highway miles. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html
Besides I already have 27 12v 110ah AGM sitting in my garage waiting
for a donor. I don't think the Orbitals have that much capacity. If
I used Tony's truck platform with my batteries I should get over 100
miles.
Am I missing something?
To answer Larry's question, I'm looking for 60mph highway speeds for
most of the trip.
-Robert
David Dymaxion wrote:
Not really an expert, but I'm converting one myself. What year is
your donor car?
Compare to some other cars: The super efficient EV1 with roughly 50%
weight in batteries would go about 40 to 60 miles on a charge (1st
gen lead acid batteries) and about 60 to 80 miles on the 2nd gen lead
acid batteries. Real featherfooting and low speeds would get it 100
miles. The Tzero by AC Propulsion claimed a 100 mile range on lead
acid batteries -- but this is a car with no doors, no transmission,
and an expensive AC drive system.
I'd think 80 miles on lead acid batteries is going to be tough. It
would be much easier with advanced chemistry.
Having said that, with 1900 lbs of batteries and a 911, you might
have a shot at it. The 911 is light and the gas motor is heavy. The
aerodynamics are good, it goes surprisingly fast on modest
horsepower. The suspension is fully adjustable, so you can optimize
toe on both axles. You can get race seats, fiberglass bumpers, and
plastic windows and shave off some weight. You could also put on a
belly pan and shave the rain gutters to improve the aerodynamics.
On the flip side, the truck's aero is going to stink, so you'd need
alot of batteries to get it to work.
My guess is it would boil down to the 911 is better for highway work,
and the truck is better for low speed work.
Final thought: This might be a case for a hybrid pack. Do 26
Orbitals, and as many Lithium batteries as you can afford. Have the
Lithium batteries give a steady 50 amps or so to charge the lead
batteries, and the lead handles the high current bursts. You'd be on
your own here, though, as you'd be trailblazing.
--- Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I would really like to get 80 miles in the Porsche 911 and I could
fit 26 110ah AGM batteries inside.
Looks like 8 in the gas tank area, 6 across the back seat, 2 on the
floor and 10 in the engine compartment.
The battery weight would be 27x72lbs=1944lbs. I think the awesome
porsche handling will go out the window with a final weight over
3800lbs. I'm now thinking of the small light pickup instead. The
extra weight should be easier to deal with.
Any Porsche experts out there? I hate to sell this car.
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
>
> Lee,
>
> Did you mean "Higher Capacity" when you quoted "Longer Cycle Life"
> in your 3rd point about keeping the batteries hot?
No; I really did mean that the cycle life is higher if the battery is
hot. This happens because of the way cycle life is defined.
"End of life" is usually defined as when the battery will no longer
deliver 80% of its originally-specified amphour capacity. Suppose it
takes 200 cycles for a given battery at 25 deg.C.
Now test it at 40 deg.C. Because it's hotter, its amphour capacity
increases. Let's say it nominally delivers 120% of its 25 deg.C
capacity. Now, its capacity can fall 40% (instead of 20%) before it
falls below your end-of-life criteria. Thus you get more cycles out of
it.
But, after 200 cycles, if you let it cool off to 25 deg.C and test it,
you'll find its capacity is LOWER than the battery tested at 25 deg.C.
The chronically high temperature has accellerated its aging. Even if you
didn't cycle it, it might only last 6 months at the higher temperature.
So, whether you heat the battery or not depends on your pattern of use.
Will you be discharging it daily to 80% DOD? Then you'll use it up in
less than a year, so keeping it hot will give you more cycles within
that time.
Or, will you only drive it a few days a week, and only be discharging it
to (say) 50% depth of discharge? The shallower depth of discharge
greatly extends cycle life. Then heating it will *shorten* your life,
because the heat will kill it before the cycle life does.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark Freidberg wrote:
> Ok thanks. I didn't know that in the typical DC EV circuit
> architectures the motor controller is normally exposed to charging
> voltages.
It depends on how it was wired. There should always be a contactor to
disconnect the controller from the battery. However, there is also often
a precharge resistor across this contactor; it will maintain voltage on
the controller even with the contactor off.
> The other thing is that on my Geo there is a 3 position toggle:
> charge/neutral/run. When charging which points in the circuitry
> could I connect a VOM to, to see if the controller is connected
> or not? The controller terminals *are* easily accessible.
Measure the voltage at the input of the controller, B+ to B-. It should
be (about) zero when your control switch is in "charge" or "neutral".
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
All,
I recently read a short newspaper review about the Yaris and wondered if
anyone had looked at them as a conversion candidate. I remember a recent
thread about the Echo, and I believe the Yaris has the same drivetrain, and
eelectric power steering. I think the base price as around $10k.
50,000 plus eelectric miles on the buggies, and a counting,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa only!)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich and All,
Although I agree that people like Bill Dube' had trouble with modular
charging in the past, due to problems with the chargers that John Bryan
mentioned, I will say again that my AGM's have been very happy with 16
individual five amp Soneil (1212SR) chargers (and the FrankenLesters for 30
amp bulk charging). For poor folks like me, modular charging is usually our
only option at the moment, and John Bryan was a major inspiration to my
decision to go that route!
50,000 plus eelectric miles on the buggies, and a counting,
Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
http://www.devc.org/
Card carrying member and former racer with The National Electric Drag
Racing Association:
http://www.nedra.com/
Lyons, CO
1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of floodies, for Pa only!)
>From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 10:44:04 -0700
<snippage>
>I still think the Modular chargers have a weak point and that is the Failure
>rate gets multiplied by the number of units running.
>We tried this on this list.. and had some pretty serious failures...
>
>Making tons of little chargers... has it's merits, but I don't think it will
>survive the rigors of a on road EV for very long.
<snippage>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That gen does look familiar. If it's the one I've seen, or similar to
it, it's pretty audible for about half a mile and quite loud at close
range, you need to yell over it. Something to keep in mind. I mean,
depending on how remote your location is it may be likely someone will
complain about it after a period of time.
The situation can be improved by adding a muffler onto the exhaust system.
Danny
bruce parmenter wrote:
Here is an image of the advertised genset
http://geocities.com/brucedp/images/3kwgenset.jpg
I am going to go after work to check it out.
If the specs on teh box rate it with a higher continuous
output rating higher than 2200 watts, I may consider
changing the 5-20 duplex outlet and 20 amp breaker to a
L5-30 and a 30 amp breaker.
I may not be able to pull 30 amps, but I would be able
to pull the full amount of power the genset was designed for
using my PFC-30 charger without burning out the genset's
windings.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, 6 Apr 2006 15:23:01 -0700 (PDT), bruce parmenter
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Here is an image of the advertised genset
>http://geocities.com/brucedp/images/3kwgenset.jpg
>I am going to go after work to check it out.
>
>If the specs on teh box rate it with a higher continuous
>output rating higher than 2200 watts, I may consider
>changing the 5-20 duplex outlet and 20 amp breaker to a
>L5-30 and a 30 amp breaker.
>
>I may not be able to pull 30 amps, but I would be able
>to pull the full amount of power the genset was designed for
>using my PFC-30 charger without burning out the genset's
>windings.
You might try just jumpering around the breaker. I've yet to see a
genset with more motor than generator. Every one that I've ever had
would lug the motor down before the generator would get too hot.
Since you're going to be driving a PFC, you might be able to get a
full 30 amps at a higher engine speed. It won't be 60 hz but for that
load, who cares?
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think he means you could think about a rest break somewhere along the way
;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Robert Baertsch
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 3:43 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
Lawrence,
I don't understand what you are saying. Better than what? I'm happy
with overnight charging. Why are you bringing up charging in one hour?
-Robert
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> The other option is to put in as many agm's as possible & spend your
> money on the biggest charger you can or two of them. There are some
> people that can do 100 miles with one one hour charge. That might
> work better. It's not the range it's the charging time that is the
> problem. Lawrence........
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Baertsch"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:00 PM
> Subject: Re: 80 miles in a Porsche 911?
>
>
>> It is a 1980 Targa 911 SC. The suspension in the back is quite
>> adjustable so that would be fine. I'm concerned about the front
>> suspension which is not designed for a heavy load.
>>
>> The ride is already very hard and I'm not sure what will happen when
>> I load it up.
>>
>> I think Lithiums would cost over $10K so I'm going to wait until my
>> first set of AGMs wear out for advanced chemistry. I think batteries
>> will be much better is 3-4 years.
>>
>> There is a Toyota Pickup (2500lbs stock/5260lbs converted) on the
>> evalbum with 40 T105 Trogan (6v 225ah) batteries that claims over
>> 120 highway miles. http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/037.html
>>
>>
>> Besides I already have 27 12v 110ah AGM sitting in my garage waiting
>> for a donor. I don't think the Orbitals have that much capacity. If
>> I used Tony's truck platform with my batteries I should get over 100
>> miles.
>>
>> Am I missing something?
>>
>> To answer Larry's question, I'm looking for 60mph highway speeds for
>> most of the trip.
>> -Robert
>>
>> David Dymaxion wrote:
>>> Not really an expert, but I'm converting one myself. What year is
>>> your donor car?
>>>
>>> Compare to some other cars: The super efficient EV1 with roughly 50%
>>> weight in batteries would go about 40 to 60 miles on a charge (1st
>>> gen lead acid batteries) and about 60 to 80 miles on the 2nd gen lead
>>> acid batteries. Real featherfooting and low speeds would get it 100
>>> miles. The Tzero by AC Propulsion claimed a 100 mile range on lead
>>> acid batteries -- but this is a car with no doors, no transmission,
>>> and an expensive AC drive system.
>>>
>>> I'd think 80 miles on lead acid batteries is going to be tough. It
>>> would be much easier with advanced chemistry.
>>>
>>> Having said that, with 1900 lbs of batteries and a 911, you might
>>> have a shot at it. The 911 is light and the gas motor is heavy. The
>>> aerodynamics are good, it goes surprisingly fast on modest
>>> horsepower. The suspension is fully adjustable, so you can optimize
>>> toe on both axles. You can get race seats, fiberglass bumpers, and
>>> plastic windows and shave off some weight. You could also put on a
>>> belly pan and shave the rain gutters to improve the aerodynamics.
>>>
>>> On the flip side, the truck's aero is going to stink, so you'd need
>>> alot of batteries to get it to work.
>>>
>>> My guess is it would boil down to the 911 is better for highway work,
>>> and the truck is better for low speed work.
>>>
>>> Final thought: This might be a case for a hybrid pack. Do 26
>>> Orbitals, and as many Lithium batteries as you can afford. Have the
>>> Lithium batteries give a steady 50 amps or so to charge the lead
>>> batteries, and the lead handles the high current bursts. You'd be on
>>> your own here, though, as you'd be trailblazing.
>>>
>>> --- Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I would really like to get 80 miles in the Porsche 911 and I could
>>>> fit 26 110ah AGM batteries inside.
>>>> Looks like 8 in the gas tank area, 6 across the back seat, 2 on the
>>>>
>>>> floor and 10 in the engine compartment.
>>>>
>>>> The battery weight would be 27x72lbs=1944lbs. I think the awesome
>>>> porsche handling will go out the window with a final weight over
>>>> 3800lbs. I'm now thinking of the small light pickup instead. The
>>>> extra weight should be easier to deal with.
>>>>
>>>> Any Porsche experts out there? I hate to sell this car.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> __________________________________________________
>>> Do You Yahoo!?
>>> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
>>> http://mail.yahoo.com
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Why does everyone talk about "10 times as bad" The new generators from
reputable generator manufacturers are fuel injected and use Catalytic
converters on the exhaust. They should be as good at low level polution as a
car, especially if picked properly for the job they will be at their power
curve instead of barely working as the typical car engine is, at a rest more
then ten percent of the time. So call me an idiot and tell me where I'm
wrong please.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:51 AM
Subject: RE: 3kw genset for $315
Bruce,
I think you already know this answer -
When you need a genset to get back home
then do not drive an EV.
It does not make environmental sense (a genset
pollutes at least ten times as bad as a regular
car, so even if you need if for every tenth trip
you better use a regular car iso the genset)
and there is no point in expressing to everyone that
your EV range is not sufficient and you need that
noisy, smelly, polluting genset to keep your "clean"
EV going. It is the wrong message.
You can invest some time in checking beforehand
where you are going, to see if there are other
solutions (plug in at a nearby convenience store
or other friendly neighbor)
or find other solutions (increase your range?)
If all else fails, you may need to leave the EV
and use a gas car for commuting, or drive to a
train station or other public transport.
Someone on this list asked me about a solar panel to
trickle-charge the pack, but that will buy you only
about 1 mile for every hour that the car receives
full sunshine.
So, unless you can build a kind of carport with
solar and charge with higher power, there is no
way to generate enough power to significantly
add to your range.
You already found out that cheap products are often
overrated in their claimed specifications, especially
in continuous duty.
One possible solution is to try and move closer to
the place where you need to go on a daily basis.
I always try to live in the city where my work is,
or in a village nearby.
Success in finding a good solution.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of bruce parmenter
Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:43 PM
To: evlist
Subject: 3kw genset for $315
An ad on one of the discount-store fliers mixed in with the weekly
junk-mail has a 100 lb generator rated at 3000 watts for $315
including tax.
I will have to go to the store and see what I would be buying but
the small picture shows only a dual 110VAC 20 amp out and a
12 VDC terminals. The genset looks like:
http://www.centralonlinesales.com/show_Product.asp?ID=1616
I could mount it on the tire rack that I have on the rear of my
S-10 Blazer. I may also want to mount a jerry can for extra fuel.
-First I am wondering if this generator is one of the types
that was POSTed as a PFC killer?
Since at some point (a year of more) I may have to move to
where the rent is affordable, and where there is no public EV
charging, I may need to use the generator mounted on the back of
my EV to get back home.
The odd part is the rating. If the 12 VDC output is 10 amps, that
is .12 Kw. And the 110 VAC duplex outlet is likely connected to
the same 20 amp breaker which is 2.2 Kw. That is a total of
2.32Kw. What about the other .68Kw?
Running my PFC-30 off a 20 amp 110 VAC outlet will not use all its
capabilities, but the lower charge current is offset by the lighter
genset weight. Mounting it on the tire rack means I do not have to
have a trailer. That reduces both weight and drag.
Any views on this topic are welcome.
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
you bring up a good point. If I ran this and it is loud enough to
cause complaints that will not work. It is bad enough to air
pollute, but to noise pollute exaserbates the situation.
Where do I get a muffler to queit it down.
Would I remove the cheapo it come with and replace it with the
better one? Does it just screw in?
What would I be looking for and where?
Thanks,
-Bruce
-
Danny Miller wrote:
That gen does look familiar. If it's the one I've seen, or
similar to it, it's pretty audible for about half a mile and
quite loud at close range, you need to yell over it. Something
to keep in mind. I mean, depending on how remote your location
is it may be likely someone will complain about it after a period
of time.
The situation can be improved by adding a muffler onto the
exhaust system.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Danny,
you bring up a good point. If I ran this and it is loud enough to
cause complaints that will not work. It is bad enough to pollute
the air with exhaust, but to noise pollute as well would
exaserbate the situation.
-Where do I get a muffler to quiet it down.
-Would I remove the cheapo it come with and replace it with the
better one?
-Does it just screw in?
-What would I be looking for and where?
Thanks,
-Bruce
-
Danny Miller wrote:
That gen does look familiar. If it's the one I've seen, or
similar to it, it's pretty audible for about half a mile and
quite loud at close range, you need to yell over it. Something
to keep in mind. I mean, depending on how remote your location
is it may be likely someone will complain about it after a period
of time.
The situation can be improved by adding a muffler onto the
exhaust system.
-
Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
' ____
~/__|o\__
'@----- @'---(=
. http://geocities.com/brucedp/
. EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
. (originator of the above ASCII art)
===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Simply put Victor..
This thread was not intended to slam anyone's product, just the concept.
It was not intened to slam you or your product.
And I have PFC charger charging NimH and lion batteries all over the place.
You saying that my chargers are useless to you... and implying that they
are useless to anyone not doing simple lead acid. That's not true.
And I happen to know that you sell a ...."higher featured" charger... I am
sure you don't think they are Useless.
Most folks love the charge levels they get from my chargers. Many want more,
and I am trying to make them happy.
I am NOT comapring my product to anyones. I was trying point out my charge
Philosophy. And that may or may not
Be Good PR for me but it was a honest attempt to show the differences.
My test of your Honda.. was years ago, With Optima Yts on it.
I hear you have a LOT different power supply that then.
I am not in a flame war mood today Victor...
My customers want fast simple charging.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark,
Nobody calls you an idiot, the point is that most gensets that
you can buy do not have these features, so in terms of the
environment they are lagging 40 years behind.
Adding this to an EV is, well, a step backwards.
I tried Googling for "genset fuel injected Catalytic" but only
found 35 kW gensets and research of a converted genset with an
after-market EFI, so nothing ready to buy for an EV.
Do you have pointers for those that absolutely need a genset
and want to spare the environment the use of pre-seventies
technology?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 3kw genset for $315
Why does everyone talk about "10 times as bad" The new generators from
reputable generator manufacturers are fuel injected and use Catalytic
converters on the exhaust. They should be as good at low level polution as a
car, especially if picked properly for the job they will be at their power
curve instead of barely working as the typical car engine is, at a rest more
then ten percent of the time. So call me an idiot and tell me where I'm
wrong please.
Mark Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Cor van de Water" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 12:51 AM
Subject: RE: 3kw genset for $315
> Bruce,
>
> I think you already know this answer -
> When you need a genset to get back home
> then do not drive an EV.
> It does not make environmental sense (a genset
> pollutes at least ten times as bad as a regular
> car, so even if you need if for every tenth trip
> you better use a regular car iso the genset)
> and there is no point in expressing to everyone that
> your EV range is not sufficient and you need that
> noisy, smelly, polluting genset to keep your "clean"
> EV going. It is the wrong message.
>
> You can invest some time in checking beforehand
> where you are going, to see if there are other
> solutions (plug in at a nearby convenience store
> or other friendly neighbor)
> or find other solutions (increase your range?)
>
> If all else fails, you may need to leave the EV
> and use a gas car for commuting, or drive to a
> train station or other public transport.
>
> Someone on this list asked me about a solar panel to
> trickle-charge the pack, but that will buy you only
> about 1 mile for every hour that the car receives
> full sunshine.
>
> So, unless you can build a kind of carport with
> solar and charge with higher power, there is no
> way to generate enough power to significantly
> add to your range.
>
> You already found out that cheap products are often
> overrated in their claimed specifications, especially
> in continuous duty.
>
> One possible solution is to try and move closer to
> the place where you need to go on a daily basis.
> I always try to live in the city where my work is,
> or in a village nearby.
>
> Success in finding a good solution.
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of bruce parmenter
> Sent: Wednesday, April 05, 2006 8:43 PM
> To: evlist
> Subject: 3kw genset for $315
>
>
> An ad on one of the discount-store fliers mixed in with the weekly
> junk-mail has a 100 lb generator rated at 3000 watts for $315
> including tax.
>
> I will have to go to the store and see what I would be buying but
> the small picture shows only a dual 110VAC 20 amp out and a
> 12 VDC terminals. The genset looks like:
> http://www.centralonlinesales.com/show_Product.asp?ID=1616
>
> I could mount it on the tire rack that I have on the rear of my
> S-10 Blazer. I may also want to mount a jerry can for extra fuel.
>
> -First I am wondering if this generator is one of the types
> that was POSTed as a PFC killer?
>
> Since at some point (a year of more) I may have to move to
> where the rent is affordable, and where there is no public EV
> charging, I may need to use the generator mounted on the back of
> my EV to get back home.
>
> The odd part is the rating. If the 12 VDC output is 10 amps, that
> is .12 Kw. And the 110 VAC duplex outlet is likely connected to
> the same 20 amp breaker which is 2.2 Kw. That is a total of
> 2.32Kw. What about the other .68Kw?
>
> Running my PFC-30 off a 20 amp 110 VAC outlet will not use all its
> capabilities, but the lower charge current is offset by the lighter
> genset weight. Mounting it on the tire rack means I do not have to
> have a trailer. That reduces both weight and drag.
>
> Any views on this topic are welcome.
>
>
>
> Bruce {EVangel} Parmenter
>
> ' ____
> ~/__|o\__
> '@----- @'---(=
> . http://geocities.com/brucedp/
> . EV List Editor, RE & AFV newswires
> . (originator of the above ASCII art)
> ===== Undo Petroleum Everywhere
>
> __________________________________________________
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>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Right. I've never seen a fuel injected or catalytic consumer
generator. I don't even know if large gens use that. As long as
emissions don't require them consumers aren't going to volunteer to pay
extra for them.
They did get better in that they're now largely 4-stroke, as opposed to
2-stroke which is incredibly dirty. Other advances are overhead valves,
being an inverter gen that can throttle down to lower RPM without
affecting the AC frequency, and even having intake silencers.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Mark,
Nobody calls you an idiot, the point is that most gensets that
you can buy do not have these features, so in terms of the
environment they are lagging 40 years behind.
Adding this to an EV is, well, a step backwards.
I tried Googling for "genset fuel injected Catalytic" but only
found 35 kW gensets and research of a converted genset with an
after-market EFI, so nothing ready to buy for an EV.
Do you have pointers for those that absolutely need a genset
and want to spare the environment the use of pre-seventies
technology?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 3kw genset for $315
Why does everyone talk about "10 times as bad" The new generators from
reputable generator manufacturers are fuel injected and use Catalytic
converters on the exhaust. They should be as good at low level polution as a
car, especially if picked properly for the job they will be at their power
curve instead of barely working as the typical car engine is, at a rest more
then ten percent of the time. So call me an idiot and tell me where I'm
wrong please.
Mark Grasser
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Wow, That's what I get.
I was working on aa few assumptions. I remember a few years ago reading
about the new lawn mowers coming out soon with Cats on them, naturally
assuming that if lawn mowers had them so would generators. A good asumption
I think. I just never thought that with 12 years of republican leadership
they would have nixed that too.
Imagine, a lawn mower spews as much toxins as 50 automobiles do in the same
amount of time and the congress actually either repieled the law or simply
didn't pass it.
So we are back to someones idea of taking a Geometro 3 cylinder with all
associated electronics and exhaust parts, creating some kind of a speed
regulator to run it in it's torque/horsepower curve, mounting a couple of
high current alternators on a serpintine, wire them in series and requlating
them at the needed charge voltage, etc.
Mark Grasser
From: "Danny Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 8:44 PM
Subject: Re: 3kw genset for $315
Right. I've never seen a fuel injected or catalytic consumer generator.
I don't even know if large gens use that. As long as emissions don't
require them consumers aren't going to volunteer to pay extra for them.
They did get better in that they're now largely 4-stroke, as opposed to
2-stroke which is incredibly dirty. Other advances are overhead valves,
being an inverter gen that can throttle down to lower RPM without
affecting the AC frequency, and even having intake silencers.
Danny
Cor van de Water wrote:
Mark,
Nobody calls you an idiot, the point is that most gensets that
you can buy do not have these features, so in terms of the
environment they are lagging 40 years behind.
Adding this to an EV is, well, a step backwards.
I tried Googling for "genset fuel injected Catalytic" but only
found 35 kW gensets and research of a converted genset with an
after-market EFI, so nothing ready to buy for an EV.
Do you have pointers for those that absolutely need a genset
and want to spare the environment the use of pre-seventies
technology?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mark Grasser
Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 4:06 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: 3kw genset for $315
Why does everyone talk about "10 times as bad" The new generators from
reputable generator manufacturers are fuel injected and use Catalytic
converters on the exhaust. They should be as good at low level polution as
a
car, especially if picked properly for the job they will be at their power
curve instead of barely working as the typical car engine is, at a rest
more
then ten percent of the time. So call me an idiot and tell me where I'm
wrong please.
Mark Grasser
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've heard a car muffler works well, though this would likely mean
creating a system which extends beyond the roll cage of the gen.
Generally they should be welded, and since a car muffler uses a larger
diameter then some sort of adapter would be necessary.
In some cases you could possibly weld the gen's exhaust manifold into
the vehicle's existing muffler. And you could also put it upstream of
the catalytic converter, though there's no guarantee that it will create
the correct temp for the cat to work and not overheat. It does further
illustrate the original question though- isn't it strange to rip out a
well designed IC engine only to install a relatively crude IC engine for
the same purpose?
Danny
bruce parmenter wrote:
Danny,
you bring up a good point. If I ran this and it is loud enough to
cause complaints that will not work. It is bad enough to pollute
the air with exhaust, but to noise pollute as well would
exaserbate the situation.
-Where do I get a muffler to quiet it down.
-Would I remove the cheapo it come with and replace it with the
better one?
-Does it just screw in?
-What would I be looking for and where?
Thanks,
-Bruce
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Thu, Apr 06, 2006 at 08:56:14PM -0400, Mark Grasser wrote:
> I just never thought that with 12 years of republican leadership
> they would have nixed that too.
Haha, I'm sure the Orwellian named "Clear skies" intuitive removed all
emission caps on generator :)
> So we are back to someones idea of taking a Geometro 3 cylinder with all
> associated electronics and exhaust parts
This still seems like the best idea if you are planning on doing this, and
can not build your own.
>
> >Right. I've never seen a fuel injected or catalytic consumer generator.
You might be able to buy a carburetted generator and use this on it:
http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
It still seems like it would be better to use a direct octane fuel cell of
some kind, use better batteries, or use two cars for this type of mission
though. :(
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeff Shanab wrote:
I guess I am in both camps then.
On M,W,F the charger is always done before I go to lunch and done before
I go home or wake up in the morning.even on 110V
but on tuesday and thursday I can't quiet get a full charge on the pack
after lunch because I work a short day to go to school, I plug in when I
get home but only for an hour. at 110V into a 300V pack with 15amp
breakers I can only put 4 amps into the pack. Depending on what time I
got lunch, that isn't enough time to put enough in to go to school
without pushing below 80% DOD. On those days I need a quick charge.
Not nesessarily - if you didn't drain your pack to 100% DOD on an
easy day before, you may not need fast charge today - you still use
yesterday's juice. You inly need partial charge to get by today,
since tomorrow it is easy day again.
Again, fast charge won't hurt, but in your case not really a
requirement as long as your pack can *store* 1.5 days of driving
energy. If you can store it, rate of charging is no longer critical.
Back to the subject of modular chargeers. I had a reg board fail(cause I
let it get wet, duh!) anyhow, it got stuck bypassing and shut the
charger down to 1/2 amp draining the battery to 6volts by the morning,
while plugged in. "Stuck bypassing" is a failure mode less associated
with the individual chargers. Monitoring with alarms is really the only
way to be sure and that goes for either type of balancer/charger and I
believe the motivation behind MK3 s. Let us not forget we(ok, Rich,
Otmar, Victor, Lee and others, maybe not me) are the developers/beta
testers and early adopters. We have to welcome the variences in design.
When we stop trying new ways that is when we are dead. I first thought
25K for a battery pack was not feasable, now I am wondering about my
next pack, could they be kokam's?
As a matter of fact I have 2 ideas for battery chargeing/managing
systems, one centered around the pfc20 that would increase it's
balancing speed and one that uses distributed boards to charge each
battery at it's own rate to all reach full at same time. Thes would be
driven off of a high frequency power buss. The pack would determine
which is best, [EMAIL PROTECTED] blocks vs [EMAIL PROTECTED] blocks, makes a
big difference .
This all talk about modular charging reliability boils down to the
level of expertise and execution when you design and build them.
Granted, mathematically 100 units have 100 times more chances that
one will fail then only one such unit. But, complexity (amount of
silicone and components and so the reliability) of such a system may be
the same as for a large and smart AC inverter, the chances of it
to fail are the same, yet, no one bothers to compare.
There is no manufacturer who will guarantee that no unit will
fail within certain time period. But the modular charging system
(unlike one just as complex inverter) has big advantage - because
it is modular you replace failed module and keep going - something
you can't do with an inverter. The art of small chargers has been
perfected over years, they are made in many millions. When was last
time you saw an inline brick-charger (which is really SMPS) for
your laptop fail?
The key is not to make it never fail (which is impossible), but
to communicate the problem between sub-systems and at least inform
the user. Automated enough system can connect a redundant module
instead of failed one so there is no impact on the charging operation,
and user can service bad module at any time later - as long as he knows
about it. Less sophisticated systems can just shut down in case
any module has trouble, but the critical thing is that the module
trouble never ever goes unnoticeable - and monitoring/acting upon
that is pretty trivial. My LiIon BMS among other things does just
that and each cell's electronics is no less complex than a small
charger. Doesn't bother me a bit.
Unneeded complexity for the sake of fashion should be avoided,
no question, but if we wouldn't get worthwhile benefits of
complexity, we'd all keep driving contactor controllers now.
Everything these days is complex. A little cell phone if you think
about it is also a digital camera, a calculator, an electronic
address book, a game pad and email reader. People treat them
without much respect as any other gadget, throwing around,
without thinking much of it's reliability or complexity of millions
of transistors it consists of. These little marvels usually get
tossed in garbage in favor of more modern ones, not because they fail.
A modular charger is less complex device than a cell phone.
I'm not talking about selling price which is high because no one
makes such specialized gadgets in sufficient quantities, I'm
discussing amount of silicon in each which impacts reliability.
Most of the modular chargers people will see failing in their EVs
will be because they adapt cheapest hardware not really meant
for the job and expect it to perform. If you want serious reliability
you design for the job from scratch. IF you can't design, you pay
to those who can, you don't go to a wal-mart and get something
of the same function. I don't want to get into a discussion of
using fish tank pumps to cool off EV drive systems, this is not
serious talk even if fun to do for EV hobbyists like us. I do
enjoy finding new uses for something not meant to be used that
way, but this is far from professional approach for reliable
designs with provisions of failure recovery - quite critical
qualities for vehicle charging system. As a designer you at
least should do FMEA and analyze at least SIL1 and SIL2 safety
levels. It may sound Greek here, but the point is - reliability
of the modular charging is not inherent to the fundamental idea.
Anything can be taken care of and modular system CAN be made more
reliable than single charger if that's the goal and priority.
It cannot if money is priority, and this is the issue with hobbyists.
Thus, fiasco with modular systems (although there are good
exceptions, Chris Brune just reported on one reliable solution).
Victor
--- End Message ---
