EV Digest 5338
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Orb Carnage....
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Orb Carnage....
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Crazy DC regen idea
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by "Electric Man" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Thesis data logging - fixed error
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Crazy DC regen idea, thoughts, comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: YAEVBA
by jerry halstead <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Crazy DC regen idea, thoughts, comments
by "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Replying to the list
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Crazy DC regen idea
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Crazy DC regen idea, thoughts, comments
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Multi charger.
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: 3kw genset for $315
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Crazy DC regen idea, thoughts, comments
by "Andrew Paulsen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On 6 Apr 2006 at 16:12, Neon John wrote:
> The idea is to gear the two together so that the car engine just
> loafs along at its most efficient operating point while the generator
> turns at whatever speed it needs to in order to generate.
I was under the impression that an automotive ICE operates at its highest
efficiency when fully loaded - lugging, IIRC - rather than loafing along.
Thus if one were building a range extender genset and wanted optimum
efficiency, one would want to closely match the generator load to the
engine's maximum output (or rather vice versa). Yes? No?
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
When the battery opened the entire string voltage...Sans the one that
was
being opened gets impressed acros the one open battery. And that had a
Mk2B
reg on it.
OK, I get it. The series string of batteries was interrupted by an
interconnect in one battery opening up. However, there was a reg
connected across that battery, so the pack voltage, denied the
opportunity to flow through the battery, tried to go through the
regulator instead.
The lesson is to pay attention to the low battery light or risk losing
the regulator. Especially if you're racing.
Thanks!
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That,
or install a 1,000 Amp bypass diode against reg reversal when a
battery dies ;-)
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Doug Weathers
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 12:11 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Orb Carnage....
On Apr 7, 2006, at 10:47 PM, Rich Rudman wrote:
> When the battery opened the entire string voltage...Sans the one that
> was
> being opened gets impressed acros the one open battery. And that had a
> Mk2B
> reg on it.
OK, I get it. The series string of batteries was interrupted by an
interconnect in one battery opening up. However, there was a reg
connected across that battery, so the pack voltage, denied the
opportunity to flow through the battery, tried to go through the
regulator instead.
The lesson is to pay attention to the low battery light or risk losing
the regulator. Especially if you're racing.
Thanks!
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 22:07:08 -0700, "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Yo Neon
>
> I think Industrial 480 three phase has a totally differnent pricing
>structure than 240 single phase.
>You might save some coin by going 3 phase...Might....
No, not here. And not out there either. According to your town
directory, you're serviced by Puget Sound Energy. Is that correct?
Assuming that to be so...
>
>It would cost me $6 bucks, and gets me 300 miles down the road.
>
>We don't have a demand charge.. we have 8 cents a Kwhr... And less if we use
>more.
>And yes I am in a industrial park....Not my home. And it wouldn't matter.
If you look at PSE's rate card here:
http://www.pse.com/InsidePSE/ratesDocs/summ_elec_prices_2005_11_01.pdf
You'll see that things are slightly different from what you say. The
rate structure isn't that much different than ours.
The basic industrial/commercial rate is Sched 24 for customers with a
demand of less than 50KW (approximately 240v/200a single phase). In
THAT RATE SCHEDULE ONLY, the "customer charge" (what we call a "meter
fee") is $6.50 a month for single phase and $16.05 a month for three
phase with no demand charges and no voltage distinction. This is the
only schedule that does not have a demand charge. The difference in
fees for single vs three phase represents the difference in
transformer losses and facilities costs between the two services.
The summer rate is 6.9503 cents/KWH and the winter rate is 7.2164
cents/KWH.
If they supplied you with 200 amps of 480 volt service (96KW class)
then you're not on Sched 24 unless they're letting you "bootleg"
because of your low average demand. If so then that's something
that's not in their tariff. Given the tiny size of your town, they're
probably appreciative of each and every little manufacturer and are
turning their heads for now.
Sched 25 is for demands between 50 and 350KW and has a flat "customer
charge" of $24.90 per month and presumes 3 phase service. This
schedule DOES have a demand charge.
The rate structure is as follows.
Winter Summer
First 20KWH >20KWH first 20KWH >20KWH
7.9166 5.8757 7.1905 5.8757
The demand charge is:
Winter Summer
$7.86/KW $5.24/KW for demand over 50KW
The demand charge here is a year round $8.88 per KW over 50KW. The
rate for that class of service here is 6.022 cents/KWH and $8.20/month
"meter charge".
In other words, your rate structure is quite similar to ours except
that you pay a little more per KWH and a little less demand charge.
That's logical considering your peaking capacity is all hydro while
TVA's is a mix of hydro and gas turbine plus an odd quick-fire oil and
gas steam plant here and there.
So your utility DOES have a demand charge and a 75KW demand WOULD
incur almost as much additional charges there as here. That you may
be "bootlegging" on the lower rate schedule because you have a low
average demand has nothing to do with what a customer using your
charger would experience. Especially if the charger got much use.
And yes, just like here, residential vs industrial DOES matter. The
residential rate (Sched 7) there is much cheaper than Sched 25 for the
first 600KWH but much more expensive for anything above that. The
"customer charge" is $5.75 for single phase vs $14.20 for three phase.
That three phase is even available for a residential account probably
reflects the proliferation of McMansions out there. Three phase
residential power is NOT available here except by special exception
approved by the Cleveland Utilities board. There are only about 3
McMansions here so that isn't an issue.
>
>I am not paying anybodies Freight...
What prompted that comment?
>My client wants this charger....I have
>not advocated it for the general public...though it would be a neat trick.
Apparently you did. I commented that no rational businessman would
deploy a non-isolated charger for public access and you jumped in
stating that your 75KW charger IS isolated. That certainly sounds
like you're suggesting the 75KW charger for public access. Either
that or your comment was irrelevant to the discussion.
>I don't know anybody that would dare charger there EV at 400 amps...Even The
>Wayland Esque Dump charging doesn't get this high for very long.
Of course not.
>
>Clearly... I would not want to install in a envorment that has that kind of
>a pricing structure. Since I have 200 amps of 480 available....
>I am not sure I have your concernes at all.
Ahh, but you do. You just don't know it yet. See my analysis below.
>
>Good point though, I have never asked..and I have never drawn more than 40
>Kw for a few hours. That will change soon.
>
>The biggest single phase PFC charger is a 12.5Kw PFC50..Wayland will get
>one that can draw 18Kw..If he can find 75 amps of 240.
>
>It's refreshing to hear that you can't understand it.... It shows some of
>your limited thinking.
Now I'm really scratching my head. What is it that I don't
understand?
>
>Down time cost...my cleint doesn't want much down time...
>
>Simple math... The bigger the charger..the more money he can make in a given
>time.
Yabut, we were discussing public access charging and not your
industrial customer.
>
>I am not checking his power bill... That's not my job.
>
>I will of course check mine since I just cut a $364 dollar check for 4.550
>Megawatt hours of heating power aka charger thermal testing for the last 60
>days.
2275KWH/month ain't nuthing. That's a typical small home consumption
rate. You have those large demand spikes when you test your chargers
but otherwise you're barely using enough for lights and heat.
That works out to about 7.29 cents/KWH. That says that you're on
Sched 24. (The variable fuel adjustment charge accounts for the rate
not coming out to exactly the tariffed ones.) They're letting you
"bootleg" because your average demand IS so low.
When you start using a bit more power and/or they notice the high
demand as you build and test larger chargers, they'll come stick a
demand meter in your socket, they'll put you on Sched 25 and THEN you
WILL care about demand charges. Fifteen minutes a month of testing at
75KW will more than double your present bill.
I am surprised that they'd give you 480 on that schedule. CU won't do
that here. If you're a low demand customer and want 480 then you
install a 240/480 dry transformer. I have two different local clients
who've had to do that in order to run 480 volt machine tools.
>I am sure the property owner will inform me when I qualify him for a higher
>Demand structure.
If he has the same rate schedule and can install one or more of these
chargers without having to upgrade his service then he's probably on
at least Sched 26. A couple hundred more dollars of demand charge is
probably lost in the noise. Even if he notices, apparently, quick
charging is worth it to him.
But again, we weren't discussing industrial rates or your big
customer. We were discussing public access charging. I'm still
wondering what your posts have to do with that subject.
John
PS: Before you go spinning off on another tangent, "bootlegging" is a
term of art describing a customer who's camped out on a lower schedule
than his service indicates and does not purport to claim any sort of
theft of service. Just calm down and get a grip.
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 02:46:33 -0400, "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>On 6 Apr 2006 at 16:12, Neon John wrote:
>
>> The idea is to gear the two together so that the car engine just
>> loafs along at its most efficient operating point while the generator
>> turns at whatever speed it needs to in order to generate.
>
>I was under the impression that an automotive ICE operates at its highest
>efficiency when fully loaded - lugging, IIRC - rather than loafing along.
>Thus if one were building a range extender genset and wanted optimum
>efficiency, one would want to closely match the generator load to the
>engine's maximum output (or rather vice versa). Yes? No?
Not fully loaded but at full throttle. There is a point somewhere
near the torque peak that is the best BSFC (brake specific fuel
consumption.) That is almost always less than the point of max HP.
Full throttle is necessary with an SI engine for the pumping losses to
be the lowest.
Best BSFC is a balance between better VE and more efficient combustion
as speed increases vs higher frictional losses as speed increases.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Trying to implement some series wound DC regen for my thesis on a method to
increase range. Can we feed current to the armature or field?
DUring regen, have a switch to change the M-? or B+ terminal to the motor to
a field winding for example and then use the same throttle control to
control regen braking force or regen current. Would that work. What
terminals of the motor would you need to connect to the B+ and the B- of
your battery pack and what sort of votlage output would a typical regen
system get??
My motor is K series 6.7 ADC. I am very keen to implement as wellsa describe
mathemtically for my thesis. Anyone shine some light on the physical and
implementation techniques of regen.
My motor has not been advanced.
Cheers
From: Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: EV List <[email protected]>
Subject: Crazy DC regen idea
Date: Thu, 06 Apr 2006 09:02:03 -0600
Hi Everyone,
I had a thought on DC regen. As far as I understand, one of the main
problems with regeneration using a DC motor is improper brush timing -
often advanced, resulting in arcing.
How about if the motor was designed with an extra-long commutator, and an
extra set of regen brushes were installed? They could be set at the most
advantageous timing position for regen.
I'm interested to hear if this would work, and if not, why.
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
_________________________________________________________________
New year, new job there's more than 100,00 jobs at SEEK
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=752315885&_r=Jan05_tagline&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/8/06, David (Battery Boy) Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Bruce,
> I would suggest that if you MUST run a genny and can't afford a diesel
> engine (running bio-diesel), that you pick a model that has a propane
> conversion kit available. As I've posted before, I converted my 10kw Y2K
> special and use it as a range extender for the S10 EV. Since my genny has a
> big 20hp engine, I use two 20lb BBQ bottles Teed together. I'm assuming you
> use propane in your RV, so you probably already have BBQ tanks that you
> swap or have filled. You could also use the genny for RV backup power. No
> toxic stinking gasoline (which gets stale) or stinking exhaust, blah, blah,
> blah... Anyway, I bought a kit for my Honda engine at:
> http://www.uscarb.com/
I'm doing something similar, with a 13HP engine. It definitely does
seem to produce a lot less nasty fumes than on petrol. I think it
can be further improved though (and consumption improved too) by
adding a "closed loop" system: fit an oxygen sensor such as one from a
car exhaust, and then use a cheap off-the-shelf LPG feedback system.
These use a stepper-motor controlled valve in the vapour line between
the regulator and the carburettor, the gadget simply moves the valve
to ensure the correct mixture. I think this will then allow the
generator to run at wide open throttle without needing to manually
adjust the mixture (or just allow it to run rich in practice). It
works well on a car anyway.
> After writing the above, I read your follow-up post below. I would argue
> with your comment that LP isn't much cleaner than gasoline. I don't have
> the numbers handy, but having put an exhaust analyzer on my genny before
> and after conversion, the emissions were lower by something like a factor
> of four.
I think it's difficult to prove by this type of test, but my LPG car
passes the yearly emissions check, under the limits for a modern car
with catalyser, even though it's a 20 year old engine with no
catalyser.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another lesser noticed advantage of an AC system is that catastrophic
failure modes can't cause the battery to be directly connected to the motor
and cause a high power runaway condition. The controller needs to provide
AC to the motor, and the batteries alone can't make it spin. Of course,
some types of throttle failures can still make the car think you want it to
go fast, but most AC systems are 'highly featured' and utilize many safety
features. (And you pay dearly for them in $)
Bob
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 7:58 PM
Subject: Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
> Wayne wrote:
> > Assuming two identical vehicles, both driven in an identical manner
> > over identical routes and terrain, identical weather conditions,
> > etc., IOW: Identical in all respects with the exception of AC (and
> > associated AC-paraphernalia), which will have the greater range?
>
> AC setups tend to cost more. To justify the higher cost, they are built
> with higher efficiency. So, using the AC and DC motors and controllers
> you can buy, the AC system will have a little more range (10-20%).
>
> DC setups tend to have higher low-speed torque, but lower full-speed
> torque. Thus it is likely to accellerate faster at low speeds, but lose
> out to AC at high speeds.
>
> > Now with regen? Which will have the greater range?
>
> Regen typically provides an extra range of 10% or so, independent of
> whether it's AC or DC. But the amount of benefit is *strongly* dependent
> on your driving pattern.
>
> Most AC systems include regen. Most DC systems do not; they leave it off
> to save money.
>
> > Beyond regen, are there any other advantages to AC vs DC?
>
> There are lots of "feathers" you can pile on the scales for either side.
>
> - AC tends to require high pack voltages; DC tends to use lower pack
> voltages
> - AC makes it easier to leave out the transmission; DC matches an ICE
> better so a conversion can use the stock transmission
> - AC systems "marry" the motor and controller so you need matched
> pairs;
> DC allows "mix-n-match" to allow used/surplus "deals"
> - AC systems are higher tech and more fashionable; DC is simpler and
> easier to understand
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
The ridiculous efficiencies that i quoted before were truly my
mis-understanding of the excel worksheet limits.
My data had exceeded the excel limit of cells and the rest of the data was
truncated. Along with the fact that the data was not properly aligned with
each other (motor controller logger and velleman 4 channel logger).
Now, with my calculations, i am getting figures of around 96 - 95%
efficiency, including the cable losses to the motor!
Not bad i think.
Still, i would like to get regen going. My theory is that the field windings
of the series wound ADC motor be connected to the B+ and M- terminals of the
motor controller that will actually control the regen current.
And then the Armature terminals connected to the battery terminals of the
traction pack, B+ and B-.
Is that right anyone????
Am i going to fry anything b doing it this way. I really want to get this
done so that i can further log some figures in driving with regen for my
thesis.
Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property
http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Adding a few comments and questions, (snipa-bit)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Jim Husted wrote:
> > I was thinking as to the feasibility [of adding slip rings]...
> > my short answer is yes, but I have a couple of questions.
> >
> > 1) A lot of armatures are odd numbered in the bar and slot count.
> > In this case would you just connect to the closest to the 180
> > degree winding? It's like trying to line up a 13 hour clock.
>
> Correct; close is good enough if you are just going to rectify the AC.
> If you wanted to use it to run a 3-phase AC load it would matter, but
> not for rectification.
>
This means as a regen feature? You're gunna rectify to DC anyhow?
> > 2) Would it matter where you connected to the winding? Could you
> > connect to the back knuckle area where it bends under (fan side)
> > or up by the comm?
>
> Yes, if I understand you.
>
> That's why I suggested putting them at the fan end. Just connect the
> slip rings to the loop of wire at the fan end, somewhere along the path
> after it has come out of one slot and before it goes back in another
> slot part way around the armature. What I think you are calling the
> "knuckle area".
>
> > If it can connect on the bend area, then... connect via a tough jumper
> > and silver solder connections could be done without degrading the
> > actual windings inside the lamination's and then could be hand
> > glyptaled. Will need to make it able to stand same rpm's as the comm.
>
So the motor may hafta be a tad, couple inches longer? Hate to get
rid of the fan.Mine has worked flawlessly for YEARS! Busted enough of them
with sloppy handling, though.
> Right! It could be done without doing any unrepairable damage to the
> wire.
>
> > 3) I would need to be directed to or be supplied the slip ring (DC
> > guy remember, hehe).
>
> I was hoping you'd know that :-) If you can get commutators somewhere,
> you should be able to get slip rings, too. They have used them for as
> long as they have commutators.
>
> If they aren't available as repair parts, at least they are a simpler
> structure to make. Just a stack of copper disks and insulating washers,
> lengthwise holes to allow connecting wires, and a pair of nuts on the
> shaft to clamp them all together. Run it on a lathe to true it up.
>
> The harder part might be to find brusholders for it. Maybe cannibalize
> it off from an old wound-rotor AC motor, or DC motor that can be
> modified to mount the brushes at right angles to their normal
> orientation?
>
> > 4) Could we do this with a smaller motor and smaller voltages to test
> > it out?
>
> Sure! An automotive alternator has a pair of slip rings to steal. Only
> good for a few amps, though.
> I would think slip rings would be relatively indifferent to hy speeds, and
the brushes last forEVer!
> > 5) You up to an H&H project?
>
> Could be fun! Rotary converters like this have long been used for DC-AC
> and AC-DC conversion. They are surprisingly efficient; more efficient
> than the motor they are built with. I've long thought of this as a way
> to use an EV's motor as a portable AC power plant, but never thought it
> would be wirth the trouble. But if it provides easy regen, that's a big
> plus!
> -- Well, I think this one is for the controller Garu's. How would ya set
up a controller? After all, when you shut off ther traction power, wouldn't
the AC side you tapped off drop out, too?So you would need a Sepex type
controller? Something that would keep the field, hot so you would be able to
push all that power back in the batteries? Just a few silly points, but the
devil is in the details. Not wanting to Diss the idea, I think it is
great!Oh JOY ! No more brush timing issue once you have found your 7 or
whatever advanced degree timing. As Lee mentioned a source of energency AC,
but it would be tricky to regulate a series motor to about 60 Hz?
My two coils worth.
seeya
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Neon sure brings up a few strong points, with thre Demand thing, At our
local trolley Museum, we have been wholloped with the demand thing running a
Subway Train, with a few cars with big hungury traction motors. It isn't so
much the weight of the train, except amateur motormen that think they are on
the Grid in NYC where there are NO limits. If ya EVer rode the Subway in NYC
and been on a fast departing train, and looked out the window at ANOTHER
fast going train right next to you. BOTH taking off at better than auto
acceleration. Think of Happy Hum of traction motors!I'd hate to see the NYC
TA's electric bill, though.
But WE are at the mersy of Electric Co's, MOST of us. Since deregulation
they can charge what they like, in the good old daze the CT lite and Power
owned the plants, and were allowed a fair rate of return by the PUC.
Nowadaze to spur compitition, (Yeah?Right) WHOTHEHELL can or WOULD be able
to build plants and give CLand P compitition? They can't EVen run power
lines today, to spread the power around, that they got! Because of the
nimbies!So it is a no brainer, like our local ,who was responsible,
regulaters. It worked for Emron, so We'll do it!!!So we just had a 20
percent raise and more to follow. What are YOU gunna do about it? They know
that. So we need to go solar, wind, whatEVer. In Sunny CA and FLA it is a
viable option. It's 40 and raining right now. Phooey!Yeah, move to CA, but
the last thing ya need is MORE people!!
To getr back to the point. Will Rich's Big chargers run on DC? It would
make more sense to getaway from the Demand Charge nonsence, and have a
really BIG battery, to trickle charge a few hundred amps which the power Co
could shed, when the going got tough. Batteries would even out the load for
the 'lectric co.This would be for the quick charge guyz, the rest of us
would plugitin with a more modest 50 amps or so.Or 120 volts at 20 amps ,
lived with that for years.
From John's great reality check, Post on Power, I guess it's the same
HERE, too. Spare me the ugly details.But thanks for the notes and
comments.As Rich sez" The power bill isn't MY problem" But it is SOMEBODIES.
I guess isolation wouldn't be in issue with a DC batt. Pak system. Except
any AC that leaked back through the charging batteries at the charge
station? Details, come to that bridge and burn it in time<g>!
My two amps worth
Bob
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo
Emerson
Good one!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Cliff,
Thanks for the response. Comments littered below...
On Apr 7, 2006, at 2:51 PM, ProEV wrote:
Calculating backwards I think you are using 144 for voltage.
Yes.
This means for the Kokam's since 70 is the 1 hour rate not the 20
hour rate, the range is being cut in about half by multiplying by .57.
I didn't realize it was a 1 hour rate. I'd seen it on another
batteries webpage as 70ah at 20hr and didn't research it further.
I've skimmed through the links you sent, but didn't see where they
mention what the rate is. Or is there some other indicator that I'm
missing which always means 1hr rate?
Since EV's always use more power than the 20 hour rate, it might be
more useful to post the 1 hour rate where you can get it and put in
your .57 * 20 hour calculation in the same column but in a
different color (so it is clear that it calculated) where there is
no published 1 hour rate.
I totally agree. Almost all of the battery specs I ran across (and
charts by others) lists the 20hr rate. I suspect this is more
applicable for folks using the batteries with solar/wind arrays.
I'll write to a few of the manufacturers and see if I can get their
official 1hr rate and 50% or 80% cycle numbers. Bonus points for
peukart #'s.
Keep in mind that many types of batteries have 'calendar lives'.
For instance, the lithium polymer might have a calendar life of 5
years. So even if the cells have not been cycled to death, they may
die of old age.
I wasn't aware of this. Do you mean "stored on a shelf not being
used" life or just regular wear and tear from being "alive" type of
life expectancy?
Maybe it is like dog years? ":^)
Finally, how about some NiCad's? I know some listers have reported
good results with the SAFTs. They might be a nice step up from lead
acid without going too extreme on price.
Sure, send them on! Post here so Cowtown and others can grab them.
Would love to get part #, 1hr rate, cycle life, weight, dimensions,
and cost/supplier. A link to specs would be sufficient for most of
the info, but getting real-world prices (and other feedback) from
people who have actually purchased and used the batteries is invaluable.
Thanks again.
-Jerry
http://www.evconvert.com/
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On 4/8/06, Bob Rice <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Could be fun! Rotary converters like this have long been used for DC-AC
> > and AC-DC conversion. They are surprisingly efficient; more efficient
> > than the motor they are built with. I've long thought of this as a way
> > to use an EV's motor as a portable AC power plant, but never thought it
> > would be wirth the trouble. But if it provides easy regen, that's a big
> > plus!
> > -- Well, I think this one is for the controller Garu's. How would ya set
> up a controller? After all, when you shut off ther traction power, wouldn't
> the AC side you tapped off drop out, too?So you would need a Sepex type
> controller? Something that would keep the field, hot so you would be able to
> push all that power back in the batteries?
I think Lee is proposing that you could use the traction controller to
power only the field (use a SPCO contactor to switch the armature out)
and in the simplest form you'd just press the accellerator to get
regen, with the "regen" switch thrown.
But you could use a seperate, lower powered controller to feed the
field independantly.
When driving, you'd also have to disconnect the AC end I think, could
use a simple SCR perhaps.
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I have a request. It is taking me some time lately to scroll thru 4 long
digests a day. Would it be possible for some people to clip out portions
during the reply process ?
just stuff the phrase <snip> to indicate the ommision.
I don't want this to start a big debate on how inconvienent it is or how
ritous it is, just those that have the time if the could, it would be
great. Thanks
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--- Begin Message ---
Hi Everybody,
3) I would need to be directed to or be supplied the slip ring
(DC guy remember, hehe). I could supply the diameter of the shaft
and the length and height info. I'd imagine I'd need to trim the
shaft to fit a standard slip ring bore.
To recap: Slip ring + Jim = Stupid, lmao!! So if you can point me
out such a critter I could in fact attach it to the shaft and make
the connections.
Slip ring + Ryan = Stupid :) I didn't have a clue what they were.
I got curious about slip rings and did a few minutes of web
searching. Here's some tidbits I turned up.
Thanks Doug for the quick links. Slip rings just look like a
commutator/brush assembly. Correct?
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Evan,
I think Lee is proposing that you could use the traction controller to
power only the field (use a SPCO contactor to switch the armature out)
and in the simplest form you'd just press the accellerator to get
regen, with the "regen" switch thrown.
Did you mean push the brakes to get regen? Pushing the amp-pedal to get
regen sounds like a fun experience :)
-Ryan
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich,
It sounds like the Yt's were used in a severe duty situation. How many
miles did the Yt's travel in that 6 years?
Mike
--- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Lore and fact....
>
> I use 14.80 on all my AGMs. It is infact derived from the exact
> requirements
> for Optima Yellow tops.
>
> I have found that it works as planed and studied.
>
> Not Lore But Fact.
>
> The Rudman Regs start blinking at 14.80 and hold the battery there
> for many
> amphours. They lock on solid when the volts are about 1 volt over the
> threshold. The Reg with the Regbuss installed back to the charger
> also pulls
> the charger's current back every time they fire. So in effect if a
> Reg can't
> keep the battery at 14.80, then it tells the charger to reduces
> current so
> the regs Are not forced into a Constant on condition. If any Reg over
> heats
> the Hot Reg line goes %100 active and the charger shuts down in about
> 2. to
> 5 seconds. Once a reg Cools and drops the hot reg signal, the charger
> resumes it's charge with the regs pulling it back in a almost linear
> fashion.
>
> So.... did I make it clear enough??? I use 14.8.
>
> You can adjust the Regs from about 14.0 to 16.2 volts as you wish.
> You can program the Mk3 Reg from 0 to 25 volts... and they will try
> to
> attian your setting.
>
> They leave here set to 14.80 volts in a 60 Deg F shop.
>
> At this time I really don't care what the battery PhD say... I have
> enough
> time doing what I am good at to get the results that I need.
> 6 years on a Set of Yts and about 50 drag racing passes a year.. and
> I still
> had 10 miles range when I updated to Orbitals. That's pretty good
> life.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 12:50 PM
> Subject: Re: Multi charger.
>
>
> > Is 14.8v tuned for full on or for just starting to blink?
> >
> > My BS detector is plugged up, so it's hard to distinguish between
> lore
> > and fact right now ;)
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Clampers is a term that only you use.
> > >
> > > I use 14.80 volts for AGMs. I tune them for 14.8? volts
> > >
> > > Some of us just know....
> > >
> > > Most AGMs, have a peak cyclic charge voltage speced on the
> Sticker...
> > >
> > > It's a matter of reading the instruction that come on the
> > > battereis....
> > >
> > > And for some of us we have 1.5 decades of abusing AGM lead acid
> > > batteries...
> > > The BS detector and years of watching them charge...tells us what
> we
> > > need to
> > > know.
> > >
> > > Rich Rudman
> > > Manzanita Micro
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > To: <[email protected]>
> > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:50 AM
> > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > >
> > >
> > > > And a fine invention it is!
> > > >
> > > > Tell me why they are not clampers?
> > > >
> > > > They really work that well eh? Cool. That assumes that the
> voltage
> > > they
> > > > are set at is correct, right?
> > > >
> > > > So what is a correct voltage for AGM for instance? How do you
> go
> > > about
> > > > finding out the correct voltage? Voltage? Boiling point?
> > > >
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >
> > > > Mike
> > > >
> > > > --- Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > They are called Regs...not clampers.
> > > > > Yes they equalize.. and very well I might add. That's why I
> > > invented
> > > > > them.
> > > > >
> > > > > I find you more than double the life span with Regs. Maybe
> even
> > > by a
> > > > > factor
> > > > > of 5.
> > > > >
> > > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > To: "Rich Rudman" <[email protected]>
> > > > > Sent: Friday, April 07, 2006 10:05 AM
> > > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > Rich,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Do clampers qualify as equalization? I know that sounds
> > > obvious,
> > > > > but I
> > > > > > still wonder if making the voltage the same on each AGM is
> > > enough
> > > > > make
> > > > > > them last longer.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Mike
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The thread the keeps going here is ... Brutal series
> charger
> > > and
> > > > > > small low
> > > > > > > power modular chargers.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I see the merit there since the little chargers act like
> > > Additive
> > > > > > Regs, and
> > > > > > > of course have thier own voltage regulation and float
> > > settings.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > What I am picking on is using the small chargers or low
> > > quality
> > > > > 20 amp
> > > > > > > modular chargers. These seam to have some serious trouble
> > > with
> > > > > > reliability.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Any path will get the job done.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > On AGMs you have to have more than just a high power
> series
> > > > > > charger.. you
> > > > > > > have to get the equalization done some how or loose the
> pack
> > > in a
> > > > > hurry.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > When you can't get a battery to equalize... you other
> issues
> > > to
> > > > > worry
> > > > > > > about....
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Rich Rudman
> > > > > > > Manzanita Micro
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > > > > From: "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > To: "EV Discussion List" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > Sent: Thursday, April 06, 2006 2:21 PM
> > > > > > > Subject: Re: Multi charger.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Rich and All,
> > > > > > > > Although I agree that people like Bill Dube' had
> trouble
> > > with
> > > > > modular
> > > > > > > > charging in the past, due to problems with the chargers
> > > that
> > > > > John
> > > > > > Bryan
> > > > > > > > mentioned, I will say again that my AGM's have been
> very
> > > happy
> > > > > with 16
> > > > > > > > individual five amp Soneil (1212SR) chargers (and the
> > > > > > FrankenLesters for
> > > > > > > 30
> > > > > > > > amp bulk charging). For poor folks like me, modular
> > > charging is
> > > > > > usually
> > > > > > > our
> > > > > > > > only option at the moment, and John Bryan was a major
> > > > > inspiration
> > > > > > to my
> > > > > > > > decision to go that route!
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > 50,000 plus eelectric miles on the buggies, and a
> counting,
> > > > > > > > Dave (B.B.) Hawkins
> > > > > > > > Member of the Denver Electric Vehicle Council:
> > > > > > > > http://www.devc.org/
> > > > > > > > Card carrying member and former racer with The National
> > > > > Electric Drag
> > > > > > > > Racing Association:
> > > > > > > > http://www.nedra.com/
> > > > > > > > Lyons, CO
> > > > > > > > 1979 Mazda RX-7 EV (192V of Orbs for the teenagers)
> > > > > > > > 1989 GM (General Murderers of the EV-1!) S10 (144V of
> > > floodies,
> > > > > for Pa
> > > > > > > only!)
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > > > > > > >Date: Tue, 4 Apr 2006 10:44:04 -0700
> > > > > > > > <snippage>
> > > > > > > > >I still think the Modular chargers have a weak point
> and
> > > that
> > > > > is the
> > > > > > > Failure
> > > > > > > > >rate gets multiplied by the number of units running.
> > > > > > > > >We tried this on this list.. and had some pretty
> serious
> > > > > failures...
> > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > >Making tons of little chargers... has it's merits, but
> I
> > > don't
> > > > > > think it
> > > > > > > will
> > > > > > > > >survive the rigors of a on road EV for very long.
> > > > > > > > <snippage>
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > > > The misfits.
> > > > The rebels.
> > > > The troublemakers.
> > > > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > > > The ones who see things differently
> > > > The ones that change the world!!
> > > >
> > > > www.RotorDesign.com
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > Here's to the crazy ones.
> > The misfits.
> > The rebels.
> > The troublemakers.
> > The round pegs in the square holes.
> > The ones who see things differently
> > The ones that change the world!!
> >
> > www.RotorDesign.com
> >
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
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David (Battery Boy) Hawkins wrote:
> I would argue with your comment that LP isn't much cleaner than
> gasoline. I don't have the numbers handy, but having put an exhaust
> analyzer on my genny before and after conversion, the emissions were
> lower by something like a factor of four.
I don't know the numbers, but LP is clearly a lot cleaner. It's used to
fuel fork lifts, floor scrubbers, and other vehicles that are operated
indoors. Apparently it's clean enough to meet air quality regulations.
You could never get away with this with gasoline or diesel!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric Man wrote:
> Another lesser noticed advantage of an AC system is that catastrophic
> failure modes can't cause the battery to be directly connected to the
> motor and cause a high power runaway condition.
You can still have catastrophic failures that connect the motor directly
to the AC motor. Instead of the motor running at full speed, it LOCKS
THE MOTOR! That's just as dangerous.
So naturally, they put fuses or circuit breakers in the path, just as
they do for DC systems. (or rather, "should do for DC systems". Some
home builders have been known to leave them out!)
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Our solar car worked that way for a while - put it in reverse and
press the accelerator to regen. It worked pretty well, but it was a
bit strange. The best part was trying to accelerate from a stop and
find out that you're still in reverse! Of course this was a BLDC
system, but the interface was the same.
On 4/8/06, Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Evan,
>
> >I think Lee is proposing that you could use the traction controller to
> >power only the field (use a SPCO contactor to switch the armature out)
> >and in the simplest form you'd just press the accellerator to get
> >regen, with the "regen" switch thrown.
> >
> >
> Did you mean push the brakes to get regen? Pushing the amp-pedal to get
> regen sounds like a fun experience :)
>
> -Ryan
> --
> - EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
> Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
> E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
>
>
--- End Message ---
