EV Digest 5341
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Crazy DC regen idea
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Prius plug in over in England
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Crazy DC regen idea
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Exide 34XCD fit?
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Porsche 911 Was: How many amps driving my EV?
by Robert Baertsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Toyota Yaris replaces the Echo, conversion candidate?
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Exide 34XCD fit?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Multi charger.
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Ghiamonster Adapter Plate Pics
by "Steve Marks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Crazy DC regen idea, thoughts, comments
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) AC lockup, was: Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Orbital or Optima? For my Jetta conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
15) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Controller with speed governor for riding lawnmower conversion needed
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
18) OT on some lists. SF Film Festival Premiere - Who Killed the Electric Car
- 4/21; 4/22
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Orbital or Optima? For my Jetta conversion
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Brad Baylor)
20) Re: [solectria_ev] A Force broken in San Francisco Back on the Road
by Danny Ames <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: [solectria_ev] A Force broken in San Francisco Back on the Road
by "Will Beckett \(becketts\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Husted wrote:
> Lee's description is something I believe I can do. Here's what I'm
> thinking... Take 6) 1/4" copper plates (2 each to make a single ring)
> and 5) 1/4" pieces of GP03 insulation to insulate the plates and the
> mounting surfaces. This would make the total length of the slip ring
> with a lock down plate around 3".
You only need 3 rings. Each ring connects to two windings, 180 degrees
apart.
I'd guess that 1/4" thick disks would be plenty. The brush would
probably be about 1" x 1/4", and be sanded into a curve to match the
slip ring. That should be enough brush area to handle 100 amps or more.
> I'll machine up a hub with a flange that I can drill and tap that
> presses onto the shaft. Drill 3 holes to run wires through (2 wires
> per hole) and 3 to 4 to mount holes to bolt it to the flange.
I was originally thinking of threading the shaft, and pinching the stack
of copper disks and insulating disks between a pair of nuts. But I'm no
machinist; your approach sounds better.
I imagine the steel flange on the shaft could have bolt holes. Bolts
pass thru the flange, the stack of copper disks and insulating disks,
and into another steel flange on the other side. That should be strong
enough to hold together at high rpm.
The two connections to each of the 3 disks would have to come out one
end. This means some holes with an insulated wire. This gets to be a lot
of holes in the flanges. Maybe the bolts could double as the electrical
connections?
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry if this is a repeat, but I found this comment
interesting
"We thought we could do a much better job than Toyota.
Doubling the car's efficiency seemed achievable. I've
worked in the automotive sector and in battery
industry and there is a huge skills gap between the
two. One does not realise what the other is doing.
That's given us a huge opportunity."
Amberjac Plug-In Prius: Hail the 130mpg car
Clever new electrics and batteries have transformed a
hybrid into an amazing car, says James Ruppert
Published: 04 April 2006
Poking fun at the Toyota Prius has been a popular
pastime. Owners including Cameron Diaz and Leonardo
DiCaprio were getting nowhere near the claimed fuel
consumption, and, most amusingly, the CO2 emissions
are not even low enough to qualify for Gordon Brown's
latest zero rate car-tax band.
So stop laughing and start gawping at the Plug-in
Prius. Not that there is a huge amount to gawp at, as
it looks just like the standard-issue hybrid.
And it has the same Prius ingredients - an efficient
petrol engine, automatic gearbox, electric motor and
additional battery pack. However, this Prius returns
in excess of 100mpg in petrol-powered mode.
Simon Sheldon, managing director of Amberjac Projects
of Grantham, Lincolnshire, which is behind the Plug-in
Prius, points to a tray of batteries. "Those are the
original nickel metal hydride batteries, which we have
replaced with lithium iron phosphate."
These have seven times the capacity of the originals
and the cars in which they are fitted get 27 times the
energy. Plus, they are safe: Sheldon stabs a battery
cell right through with a screwdriver without causing
a fire. Indeed, the cell still works.
As well as clever batteries there is also a cleverer
battery management system, which helps this modified
Prius to travel 30 miles in electric mode (30 times
higher than the standard car) and allows it to return
up to 130mpg compared with 50mpg in petrol mode.
"We thought we could do a much better job than Toyota.
Doubling the car's efficiency seemed achievable. I've
worked in the automotive sector and in battery
industry and there is a huge skills gap between the
two. One does not realise what the other is doing.
That's given us a huge opportunity.
"To get to this customer-ready stage has cost about
£150,000," says Sheldon. That is the annual coffee
bill for major manufacturer boffins.
At the rear bumper of the Plug-in is a flap which
covers a socket. Unlike a standard Prius, you boost
the batteries overnight on cheap-rate electricity (it
costs only 21.9p to fill up), and that is the key to
its remarkable urban performance.
Engage the gears and you are off at a whisper, powered
by the electric motor. You can have climate control
and soothing music without flattening the batteries.
There is a pod in front of the driver that tells you
what the situation is.
"Our monitor shows the battery condition and the
throttle position," says Sheldon.
In addition, there is the Toyota's own colourful and
mesmeric energy monitor, which tells you what the
power units are doing. After a few minutes in a
standard Prius, the engine cuts in to help the
batteries, but the Plug-in just keeps on going, and
will travel under pure battery power for 30 miles.
"We have had a problem describing what this car is,"
says Sheldon. "It isn't strictly a hybrid, or purely
an electric. It is in between. We still have to warm
up the engine, and for that we do need to burn some
petrol so that the catalyser works efficiently."
We accelerate to more than 31mph and the petrol engine
kicks in. The display, which was showing 999mpg,
tumbles down to 52.5mpg. But that figure does not last
for long, even though we are now overtaking on a dual
carriageway. At 60mph we are doing 100mpg.
Sheldon points out that it is reading in US gallons so
I have to add 20 per cent, meaning a remarkable
120mpg. And when you coast up to roundabouts, you are
only on battery power.
So why do standard Prius owners achieve such poor
consumption figures? "Their driving style needs to
change," says Sheldon. "You need to anticipate
conditions - there is no point in accelerating hard
halfway up a hill. Toyota claims 65mpg but we have
found that under normal driving conditions it is more
like 48mpg."
Unofficially, Toyota has seen the Plug-in conversion
and could not believe that someone had
reverse-engineered its baby so successfully. It will
catch up, but is years of corporate development
behind.
Amberjac can now turn its attention to the hybrid
off-roader Lexus RX400h, which gets Sheldon very
excited: "At just over 30mpg it doesn't make sense,
but we can easily double that figure and I believe it
will look much more attractive."
He's right. We could glide through the streets without
upsetting any of the anti-4x4 lobby or, indeed, any
wildlife. As I ponder this, an irate goose ignores the
car and mounts a prolonged attack on our photographer.
The Plug-in Prius is what the car should have been
anyway, but at a price. Turn up at Amberjac with your
Prius, and for £7,700 plus VAT you will have one of
the most environmentally friendly cars in the world.
The hardware can all be removed and transferred to
your next Prius. Amberjac is also introducing
lower-powered battery packs for drivers who don't need
the ability to go 30 miles without an engine, and
these versions will cost several thousand pounds less.
If you can't afford this, Sheldon is hoping that local
authorities and government will back up their green
posturing with orders. Currently, the C02 output is
reckoned to be about 60kg/km. When this is officially
confirmed, it will unusually qualify the Plug-in Prius
for zero rate car tax. And later in the year, Amberjac
will switch the fuel to bio-ethanol.
The Plug-in is a deadly serious piece of kit, perfect
for A-list celebrities keen to offset the CO2 of their
Lear Jets.
Poking fun at the Toyota Prius has been a popular
pastime. Owners including Cameron Diaz and Leonardo
DiCaprio were getting nowhere near the claimed fuel
consumption, and, most amusingly, the CO2 emissions
are not even low enough to qualify for Gordon Brown's
latest zero rate car-tax band.
So stop laughing and start gawping at the Plug-in
Prius. Not that there is a huge amount to gawp at, as
it looks just like the standard-issue hybrid.
And it has the same Prius ingredients - an efficient
petrol engine, automatic gearbox, electric motor and
additional battery pack. However, this Prius returns
in excess of 100mpg in petrol-powered mode.
Simon Sheldon, managing director of Amberjac Projects
of Grantham, Lincolnshire, which is behind the Plug-in
Prius, points to a tray of batteries. "Those are the
original nickel metal hydride batteries, which we have
replaced with lithium iron phosphate."
These have seven times the capacity of the originals
and the cars in which they are fitted get 27 times the
energy. Plus, they are safe: Sheldon stabs a battery
cell right through with a screwdriver without causing
a fire. Indeed, the cell still works.
As well as clever batteries there is also a cleverer
battery management system, which helps this modified
Prius to travel 30 miles in electric mode (30 times
higher than the standard car) and allows it to return
up to 130mpg compared with 50mpg in petrol mode.
"We thought we could do a much better job than Toyota.
Doubling the car's efficiency seemed achievable. I've
worked in the automotive sector and in battery
industry and there is a huge skills gap between the
two. One does not realise what the other is doing.
That's given us a huge opportunity.
"To get to this customer-ready stage has cost about
£150,000," says Sheldon. That is the annual coffee
bill for major manufacturer boffins.
At the rear bumper of the Plug-in is a flap which
covers a socket. Unlike a standard Prius, you boost
the batteries overnight on cheap-rate electricity (it
costs only 21.9p to fill up), and that is the key to
its remarkable urban performance.
Engage the gears and you are off at a whisper, powered
by the electric motor. You can have climate control
and soothing music without flattening the batteries.
There is a pod in front of the driver that tells you
what the situation is.
"Our monitor shows the battery condition and the
throttle position," says Sheldon.
In addition, there is the Toyota's own colourful and
mesmeric energy monitor, which tells you what the
power units are doing. After a few minutes in a
standard Prius, the engine cuts in to help the
batteries, but the Plug-in just keeps on going, and
will travel under pure battery power for 30 miles.
"We have had a problem describing what this car is,"
says Sheldon. "It isn't strictly a hybrid, or purely
an electric. It is in between. We still have to warm
up the engine, and for that we do need to burn some
petrol so that the catalyser works efficiently."
We accelerate to more than 31mph and the petrol engine
kicks in. The display, which was showing 999mpg,
tumbles down to 52.5mpg. But that figure does not last
for long, even though we are now overtaking on a dual
carriageway. At 60mph we are doing 100mpg.
Sheldon points out that it is reading in US gallons so
I have to add 20 per cent, meaning a remarkable
120mpg. And when you coast up to roundabouts, you are
only on battery power.
So why do standard Prius owners achieve such poor
consumption figures? "Their driving style needs to
change," says Sheldon. "You need to anticipate
conditions - there is no point in accelerating hard
halfway up a hill. Toyota claims 65mpg but we have
found that under normal driving conditions it is more
like 48mpg."
Unofficially, Toyota has seen the Plug-in conversion
and could not believe that someone had
reverse-engineered its baby so successfully. It will
catch up, but is years of corporate development
behind.
Amberjac can now turn its attention to the hybrid
off-roader Lexus RX400h, which gets Sheldon very
excited: "At just over 30mpg it doesn't make sense,
but we can easily double that figure and I believe it
will look much more attractive."
He's right. We could glide through the streets without
upsetting any of the anti-4x4 lobby or, indeed, any
wildlife. As I ponder this, an irate goose ignores the
car and mounts a prolonged attack on our photographer.
The Plug-in Prius is what the car should have been
anyway, but at a price. Turn up at Amberjac with your
Prius, and for £7,700 plus VAT you will have one of
the most environmentally friendly cars in the world.
The hardware can all be removed and transferred to
your next Prius. Amberjac is also introducing
lower-powered battery packs for drivers who don't need
the ability to go 30 miles without an engine, and
these versions will cost several thousand pounds less.
If you can't afford this, Sheldon is hoping that local
authorities and government will back up their green
posturing with orders. Currently, the C02 output is
reckoned to be about 60kg/km. When this is officially
confirmed, it will unusually qualify the Plug-in Prius
for zero rate car tax. And later in the year, Amberjac
will switch the fuel to bio-ethanol.
The Plug-in is a deadly serious piece of kit, perfect
for A-list celebrities keen to offset the CO2 of their
Lear Jets.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:18 AM
Subject: Re: Corporate and retail charging installations.Comments
> Hi EVerybody;
>
> My two amps worth
>
> Bob
>
Well the power Schedual here is pretty much what Neon says it is.
No I am trying to figure out how to side step that issue.
Lighitng up that old 208 3 phase welder... and dumping 100 KwHr into it to
back feed the grid comes to mind.. but that's net metering... But still
finding way to NOT draw more than 50kw from the grind is starting to sound
like a profitable project. I have not gone that high yet.. But... it might
save a couple of hundred bucks on a heavy month.
These digital meters.. do have a peak Kw drawn display.. mine says 41Kw and
change.... I wonder what happens when It says 50 to 75 and change???
So.. not much penatly in using a LOT Of kwhr... potentail slam up side the
head if a peak Kw rate is exceded.
Dumping a pack into the grid while doing a masisive draw... sounds like
trouble... until you get it right.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 8, 2006, at 12:50 PM, Jim Husted wrote:
Also I don't think you could braze the bars together as they would all
short,
That's the point - you want them all shorted together to form one
continuous conductor. A slip ring.
besides the melt factor to the bake-a-lite the coms made out of.
I thought bakelite was sturdier than that. Oh well.
Plan B: each comm bar is brought out on a wire somehow, right? So it
can go into the armature windings?
Then just solder the wires all together, one to the next. Presto, a
slip ring. No arcing - they'll all be at the same potential. This
sounds very easy to me.
I'd opt for a press on coller over the brazing if in fact that would
work 8^ ).
It would work. If you can find a high-conductivity tube with the
correct inside diameter, that would be great. It increases the
diameter of the "comm", so it might not work out as well with stock
brush assemblies.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Apr 8, 2006, at 2:58 PM, Paul G. wrote:
Could someone please stack 3 of the Exide 34XCD batteries long side
together and facing the same way and provide me the length at the
bottom (lugs)? I'm not quite sure how the side posts will affect the
length when placing them together in a row.
I bought my Orbitals without the side posts. They have two sets of
posts on top - automotive and stud. The automotive posts are for the
high-current cables, and the posts are for the regulators. Very slick.
The part number is ORB34DC-36. They appear to be identical in
construction except for the side posts.
It's pictured here on the Exide web site:
<http://www.exide.com/products/marine_rv/orbital_deep_cycle.html>
The bases are 6.75in wide. Three of them measure 20.25in as expected.
The tops are 6.5in wide, if that helps.
Hopefully they will fit in the EV Buggies current in floor battery
boxes. If they only miss by the bottom lugs I could remove one from
the first and last battery. I only have 20.40 inches to work with at
the bottom of this box (it was sized for Optimas.) I don't have to
worry about extra hight or length at the top, there is plenty of room
up there.
I think the 34DCs will fit in your boxes. Not sure about the 34XCDs.
Thanx,
Paul G.
--
Doug Weathers
Bend, OR, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Pickup cd = 0.25!
Full story: http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=870
PHOTO CAPTION: Phil Knox's streamlined 1994 Toyota Tacoma pickup saw its
fuel economy go from 25 mpg to 32 mpg at 70 mph just by improving its
aerodynamics, reducing its Cd from 0.44 to 0.25, the same as the Honda
Insight gasoline-electric hybrid
Stefan T. Peters wrote:
David Dymaxion wrote:
Don't forget, the important number is Cd*A, Cd = coefficient of drag
and A = frontal area of the car. Using height and width numbers from
<http://www.carpoint.com>, and Peter's Cd numbers, here is a little
table of Cd*A (ft^2):
Porsche 911 7.3
Saab 9-3 7.6
Porsche 944 7.9
Toyota Camry 8.0
The 911's aerodynamics are actually 10% better than the Camry, and
the 944 about 1%. The 911 is 5% better than the Saab, the 944 about
5% worse.
Indeed:
http://www.mayfco.com/tbls.htm
These charts indicate much lower Cd*ft2 numbers for the Porsche line,
BTW. They use manufacturers frontal area specs. I think the width and
height of curvy cars like this leads to gross overestimations of
frontal area. AKA a circle has less area then a square...
Porsche 911 6.27
Porsche 944 6.96
Toyota Camry 7.57
Saab 900 7.10
My personal favorites:
68 Toyota 2000GT 5.76
90 Nissan 240SX 5.88
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
"Yaris is introduced for 2007, replacing the discontinued Echo as
Toyota's smallest car. Yaris comes as a 2-dr hatchback and a slightly
longer 4-dr sedan, both sharing a basic platform with the xA hatchback
from Toyota's Scion division."
http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/new/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38897/
Curb Weight: "2293 lbs"
http://auto.consumerguide.com/Auto/New/reviews/full/index.cfm/id/38897/Act/Specs/
MSRP: $10,950-14,050
Invoice: $10,292-13,206
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Paul,
This page might help.
http://www.evsource.com/faqs/batteries/orbital_dimensions.php
-Ryan
Could someone please stack 3 of the Exide 34XCD batteries long side
together and facing the same way and provide me the length at the
bottom (lugs)? I'm not quite sure how the side posts will affect the
length when placing them together in a row. Hopefully they will fit in
the EV Buggies current in floor battery boxes. If they only miss by
the bottom lugs I could remove one from the first and last battery. I
only have 20.40 inches to work with at the bottom of this box (it was
sized for Optimas.) I don't have to worry about extra hight or length
at the top, there is plenty of room up there.
Thanx,
Paul G.
--
- EV Source <http://www.evsource.com> -
Selling names like Zilla, PFC Chargers, and WarP Motors
E-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Toll-free: 1-877-215-6781
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "Paul G."
> What individual chargers are you using John? Have you had to replace
> any?
Hi Paul, I went with what was the most convenient for me at the time.
Since I was a Zap bike kit dealer, I decided to go with their charger,
which I've been told was made by Cliplight. I was able to get a good
price on them in quantity. They have proved to be 100% reliable so far,
without a single failure. With my bike using one, I even have a spare if
it were ever needed.
I think there's something that needs to be said about MTBF figures on
electronics. It's that the time between failures tracks inversely to
operating temperature. These chargers were designed to run in a plastic
case without any active cooling. They are a conservative design, that just
relies on their generous heat sinks, and a few holes where the heat can rise
out of the case. When installing them in the car, I removed them from their
cases and provided them with a very effective, active cooling system.
I'm not recommending the use of this type of charger, since I'm sure
there are better routes to go. (that was a long time ago) Having said that, I
like
the simplicity, ease of adjustment, low cost, and redundancy they provide.
It was the quickest and easiest solution from what was available at that time,
and has worked out very well.
...John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
> Hey Steve
>
> Looks like your gonna run some 8"s
Right, the plate is designed to mount three 8"ers.
> but I was wondering why the one motor is inverted?
The picture was probably taken hastily. I'm guessing they just rested the
motors on the plate to demonstrate what the spacing would be between them.
> As to the adapter I bet ol' Jay Donnaway is just beside
> himself (being a Ghia adapter plate collector, hehe)
Indeed. I sold him one of his prize pieces - another three motor mount job.
That way he could mount his motor and have a couple expansion slots =o)
> but as to your motors damn it man you scratched them 8^ P
They took a couple trips between San Diego and Illinois and were bound to
catch a few nicks along the way. The last trip was to upgrade the shafts to
something beefier but now that we're belting them together rather than the
sausage link arrangement we had envisioned, it appears at least some of the
nicks were for naught.
> BTW do you know Jay??
Jay was cool enough to buy the tranny I had planned for the first version of
the Ghiamonster. Unfortunately, the aforementioned adapter included in the
deal wasn't a good fit for him. I plan on taking him out for a stellar
Mexican meal in a lame attempt to compensate should he ever venture this far
south.
> those scatch marks look familure...
While I seem to be Jay's primary supplier of oddball equipment, so far the
flow appears to be one way only. However, at some possibly distant future
time I will be in need of experienced EV wiring labor. Perhaps then I will
be able to compensate with the promise of vast sums of... Mexican food.
> having some fun
> Great pics
> Cya
> Jim husted
>
> Steve Marks <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> Well, I finally got some pictures back from the builder on
> the adapter plates for the Ghiamonster. You can see them at:
>
> http://www.ghiamonster.com/images/adapterplates
>
> I gather that they're still not complete but I think you'll
> get a rough idea on what they're going to look like and how
> they're going to function.
>
> Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 08 Apr 2006 14:53:26 -0600, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Here are the possible situations:
<snippity>
> In noneof these situations would you be better off with the
>DC motor directly connected to the battery pack compared with an AC
>motor with shorted windings. In many of these situations, an AC motor
>with shorted windings would not be dangerous, but a DC motor
>connected directly to the pack would be likely fatal.
With whatever respect is due, Bill, no.
Have you ever been in a car or on a motorcycle and had an instant
lockup? Not a seizure where you have a fraction of a second warning
but a stick-in-the-spokes type lockup? I have. 3 times.
First time: 250 Ossa Pioneer enduro bike, returning from the finish
line of an enduro on a paved, flat and level forest service road.
Raining. Water spray from the front wheel is chilling the front of
the cylinder, distorting it. I'm running a little low on gas and the
engine is pinging a little (it's spanish, that's what it does!) I
approach a large sweeping turn at about 45 mph, lift throttle slightly
and start to lean in. The piston seizes and because of that fine
spanish metallurgy (NOT), the rod yanks the pin out of the piston and
and as the rod heads out through the bottom of the crankcase, it
promptly locks the crankshaft.
I've suffered more piston seizures than I care to count and had
trained myself to fan the clutch at the first sign of tightness. Not
a wisp of a chance this time. One instant I'm starting to turn and
the next I'm sliding on my *ss down the highway, leaving a nice streak
of butt-cheek on the pavement. I still have a couple of hunks of
keyring embedded in my butt from that one. Yeah, I was in blue jeans
and no, nobody wore leathers on enduros back then.
Incident two. I'm tuning a Suzuki 125cc roadracer that we were
preparing for Daytona. I hadn't noticed the nut caught behind the
brake shoe on the rear brake when I put the rear wheel back on. I
lean into a 60 mph turn and apply just a little brake to set it up.
That nut comes loose and instantly locks the wheel. Again, I'm on my
*ss before I could even process what was happening. Fortunately I was
in leathers and boots so no harm done, at least to me.
Incident 3. Porsche Club of Atlanta track days, Road Atlanta. I'm in
a customer's 280Z track car doing some hot laps to check out some
tuning changes, probably running 70% of full race speed. I braked for
the turn under the bridge, then eased back on the throttle. I'm not
sure what happened, whether a tooth in the third member broke or
something was left inside or something else came loose. In any event,
with zero warning the rear instantly locked up.
It was just like on the bike but without the road rash. I was
spinning before the engine quit turning. All the way down the hill in
the dirt. Fortunately, nothing broken except my pride. If that had
been on the street with a wall or tree or telephone pole on the edge
of the road then I might not be typing right now.
I'll take a stuck throttle ANY DAY UNDER ANY ROAD CONDITIONS over an
instant lock-up such as a shorted AC controller phase would cause. I
can either stall or come close to stalling a motor with a stuck
throttle/shorted controller using the brakes, at least enough to hit
the kill switch or if I crash, not hit very hard.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 13:55:08 -0700, "Electric Man"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>What about adding an isolated winding to the field coils of small gauge wire
>with many turns, and then controlling it with a low current controller. You
>might also be able to use this extra coil for field weakening, in the "right
>pedal" mode. (I'm no big motor expert, but I think the term in developing a
>magnetic field is 'ampere turns'.) There may be enough space to do this...
You're correct in thinking in terms of ampere-turns and yes, this
would work, probably better than any of the other ideas, if there is
enough room for the windings.
I'm doing something similar to my Citicar's motor, not for regen but
for reverse without a reversing contactor. When I flip the direction
to "reverse", a single pole contactor will short the series field so I
won't have to fight its field, bypassing the armature current around
the field, and a shunt field with the same number of ampere-turns will
be energized.
I had plenty of room in the field for the windings. Since this is
momentary duty, the wire can be much lighter than for a continuous
duty shunt field.
I've prepped the motor and since I don't currently have a garage to
work in, I'm now waiting for the monsoon to end so that I can install
the motor and the controls.
The field bypass contactor handles high current but low voltage and
the duty cycle is short so I'm using a diesel starter motor solenoid
contactor. About $30 from NAPA. It and the shunt relay will be
energized through a microswitch on the throttle so that neither will
be energized except when actually backing up.
The bypass contactor must be as close to the motor as possible and the
wiring must be as heavy as practical so that the bypass circuit will
have much less resistance than the series field. Otherwise shorting
the field doesn't have much meaning. I thought about a SPDT contactor
to completely cut the series field out but that would again require
that a set of very high current contacts be in the motor-controller
loop.
I decided to do this instead of replacing a defective reversing
contactor because I didn't want to fool with the contactor, I didn't
want to spend the money for a new one, I wanted to get all the
contacts out of the high current motor-controller loop and I didn't
like the maze of high current wires for the F/R contactor. Plus I
wanted to try out my idea :-)
For regen, one would want MORE ampere-turns than with the series field
so that at a given speed, more voltage would be generated than what it
took to achieve that speed. That would make the controls much
simpler. Pretty much, just a reverse-biased diode to conduct the
regen back to the battery, some sort of low current field control and
probably a series field bypass contactor. I'd bypass the series field
to make control easier.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.-Ralph Waldo Emerson
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At 12:08 AM 9/04/06 -0400, Neon John wrote:
<snipped a big chunk about lockups> an
instant lock-up such as a shorted AC controller phase would cause.
G'day Neon John, and all
I get in inverters (3-phase motor variable-speed drives or servo drives,
A.K.A. AC motor controller) for repair every month or three. If the power
stage has developed a problem, the power devices open up their cases - no
short between the DC buss and the motor, or at least, not for very long ;^).
Whilst these are 600V buss industrial AC drives (415V 3-phase supply), I'm
guessing the same is likely to happen in the case of a 300V EV system - the
shorted device will go open pretty quickly so the DC lock-up would go away
after a few 100ths of a second. But then again, I've never seen a road-use
AC EV controller so I could be just blowing hot air.
BTW has anyone got any evidence - any documentation or other record - of an
on-road AC drive EV locking up due to power stage failiure? I'd be
surprised if there are any. I know *in theory* it can happen - but has it
in practice?
Regards
James
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87 Jetta GL 5 speed. My daily commute is about 16 miles round trip,
with a top speed around 60 MPH (for 1 mile), and average about 20 MPH
(heavy traffic). Motor will probably be the ADC FB1-4001A. I figure I
should have around 1000 to 1200 lbs of batteries to stay around 30 to
40% DOD for decent life. I need 0 to 50 MPH around 7 to 8 seconds due
to some tricky merges (my current car is a '96 Passat with the VR6).
So that rules out 18 Trojan T-105s (which would be awesomely cheap).
Controller will be the Zilla Z1K-HV or Z1K-EHV with motor current
limit at max (~900 A) and motor voltage limit at 170. From searching
the posts here, 170 V seems to be about the recommended max to prevent
arcing damage (right?). 170 V at 900 A should get me the acceleration
I need (right?).
I'm considering 25 to 29 of one of the following:
Optima Yellow Top D750S 43 lbs ~$160
Orbital Marine 34DC36 41 lbs ~$100
Orbital Extreme Duty 34XCD 41 lbs ~$100
The Optimas seem to be tricky to find locally, as I haven't found a
distributor nearby yet.
The Orbitals seem to be easier to find and much cheaper. What's the
difference between the 34DC36 and 34XCD? They both claim deep cycle.
I'll be using Rudman regs on each battery and I'm hoping to get 3
years life (about 750 cycles)
Any recommendations (other brands, etc.)?
Brad in Tampa
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John, you must lead a sheltered life, empty country roads and high
vehicle speeds. :)
Twice a day we are dropping off or picking up kids at school. The
cars are about a meter apart, and kids are running between the cars.
Would you rather have a stuck throttle or a lock-up?
Heavy stop-and-go traffic is encountered 4 times a day. For many
commuters this is the majority of their driving time. A sudden stop
is probably no damage, a sudden acceleration means you hit someone.
We regularly drive in parking lots with lots of pedestrians.
What about crosswalks?
My autocross club has had a crash from a stuck throttle.
Remember the Audi and Jeep stuck throttle thing? I believe that most
if not all these people were flooring the gas with their foot, but
same effect. I'll bet there are more wrecks from "stuck" throttles
than stuck brakes.
I can see how possibly most of your driving situations might be
easier to handle with a stuck throttle. You must admit, however,
those doing lots of 1st gear work with people around the car, the
lock-up is much safer. I like to operate with a bias towards
pedestrian safety, in a wreck with a car they always lose.
For the flip side, I am doing a DC system, as I believe the risks are
manageable. A little healthy paranoia, though, I'm not going to trust
the controller to shut down and will have a secondary safety system.
--- Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> I'll take a stuck throttle ANY DAY UNDER ANY ROAD CONDITIONS over
> an
> instant lock-up such as a shorted AC controller phase would cause.
> I
> can either stall or come close to stalling a motor with a stuck
> throttle/shorted controller using the brakes, at least enough to
> hit
> the kill switch or if I crash, not hit very hard.
> ...
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
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The biggest thing that bugs me about most DC systems is the huge
amount of current the battery's have to supply just to leave a stop
light. That's hard on everything involved. With most AC systems you
need higher voltage to get the watts up, but the battery pull 500 amps
max on the high powered systems I am familiar with. Many limit to 200
amps. That makes battery and interconnect choices easier.
The only AC failure I've ever known was when the 12v accessory battery
got hooked up backwards ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Assuming two identical vehicles, both driven in an identical manner
> over identical routes and terrain, identical weather conditions,
> etc., IOW: Identical in all respects with the exception of AC (and
> associated AC-paraphernalia), which will have the greater range?
>
> Now with regen? Which will have the greater range?
>
> Theoretically, which will have the better (read: "cheaper") operating
> costs, both in the near-term and the long-term (say 10K miles per
> year for 2 years).
>
> Is this information available elsewhere, and if so, where can it be
found?
>
> Beyond regen, are there any other advantages to AC vs DC?
>
> I like the idea of regen but if its not cost effective I'm not
> married to the idea.
>
> Before I can sell "EV" to the boss, I gotta have all my ducks in a row.
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Wayne
>
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Does anyone make a controller that can hold an Etek at a specifc
speed?
Say with 72 volts input from six 12 volt batteries to a 48 volt Briggs
& Stratton Etek, holding it at exactly 3300 RPM. Just like the gas
engine. Obviously a speed sensor would be needed on the shaft. On four
12 volt batteries with 48 volts total, the Etek runs 3000 to 3500 RPM,
varying depending on load and battery state of charge (from what I've
read, I haven't done the conversion yet). Does anyone make a
controller that can govern the speed?
Brad in Tampa
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How about a little support from other alternate fuel people. This could
happen to your rides so come to the Kabuki on the dates below & show some
support. Come to the party afterward which will have a shuttle available
using electric vehicles. The party is a block and a half away if you care
to walk.
From: Marc Geller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: SF Film Festival Premiere - Who Killed the Electric Car - 4/21;
4/22
Great News!
Who Killed the Electric Car will have two showings this month in San
Francisco at the SF Film Festival.
Fri, Apr 21 / 6:45 / Kabuki /
Sat, Apr 22 / 6:00 / Kabuki /
Tickets for the general public go on sale beginning Tuesday April 4.
http://fest06.sffs.org/info/box_office.php
Below is a review.
Watch
Fashioned like a tongue-in-cheek murder mystery, Who Killed the
Electric Car? sets out to uncover just who is responsible for the
demise of this ill-fated vehicle. The spirited film runs through the
prime suspects, including car companies, oil companies, the
government and consumers. Beginning in the early '90s, under pressure
from the California Air Resource Board, car manufacturers were forced
to develop nonpolluting vehicles . . . [notably] the EV-1, available
for lease in the mid-'90s. After less than ten years, citing lack of
interest by the public, the automaker took the vehicle off the market
and officially discontinued the project. Government policy was
rescinded, and currently . . . automakers are crushing all remaining
electric vehicles. Filmmaker Chris Paine follows electric car
activists who are desperately trying to save the few remaining cars
from being destroyed and hoping to change policy. A very timely
subject, Who Killed the Electric Car? serves as a potent reminder
that the powers that be will stop at nothing to maintain their
position in the world. The film is an informative and thoroughly
entertaining journey into the world of environmentally conscious
technology and the cars that may one day be here . . . again.
-Lisa Viola, Sundance Film Festival
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Ok found some more info:
The Optima D34 seems to be the new model designation replacing the
D750S.
And found a few posts up (by Doug Weathers), the 34DC36 appears to be
the same as the 34XCD, but without side terminals. Is that the only
difference? Due to the lower cost, I'm heavily leaning toward the
Orbitals. :)
Brad in Tampa
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Wanted to share my good news.
Just completed the final repair work today and its working great.
With all the rain storms here in soggy California and my limited time
available to work on the car it has been a challenge.
Fortunately I was able to get a new sensor and get the motor in and out
ok between dry times.
Motor bearings were replaced due to excessive axial play.
The sensor board was also bad due to it getting banged.
Runs like a top.
Danny
Danny Ames wrote:
After several months of carefree driving we have now been down for
several weeks.
I have bee reluctant to post my story and a bit depressed and needed to
do some checking.
In my several calls to various people feel ready to run this by those on
the list.
What happened is the car starting bucking on de-acceleration and got
progressively worse till finally it stopped moving in downtown rush hour.
I examined the speed sensor disk and could see the lines scratched off
where the detector pair on the speed sensor is placed.
I re-inked the disk lines with a sharpie and tried to makes several
adjustments but could not get it going at all and had the car towed home.
Jacked up the front end so the wheels could turn freely.
Completely backed off the sensor and the motor would turn smoothly and
slowly.
In testing I adjusted the sensor closer in small increments to the disk
and then the motor started to respond in a very erratic and rough
stepping motions. The axial motion of the motor armature starting
jumping about at what appears to be .125 inch so the disk is moving to
and fro in this sputtering effect to the sensor and is very choppy
The motor bearings seem noise free but the armatures axial movement
maybe to great and the trouble possibly.
When the motor is at rest the disk is about flush to the motor face.
I can see the motor mounts with 3 bolts, so does one remove these and
simply slide the motor out.
Also how does the motor shaft engage to the transmission?
Hopefully I am on the right track to fixing this.
Danny
Yahoo! Groups Links
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Good to hear. Any word about making improvements to the gearbox based on
what you found?
- Will
323 Los Altos Drive
Aptos, CA 95003
(831) 688-8669
http://becketts.ws/Will
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Danny Ames
Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 8:46 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; EV SEND MSG; SFEAA
Subject: Re: [solectria_ev] A Force broken in San Francisco Back on the Road
Wanted to share my good news.
Just completed the final repair work today and its working great.
With all the rain storms here in soggy California and my limited time
available to work on the car it has been a challenge.
Fortunately I was able to get a new sensor and get the motor in and out ok
between dry times.
Motor bearings were replaced due to excessive axial play.
The sensor board was also bad due to it getting banged.
Runs like a top.
Danny
Danny Ames wrote:
>After several months of carefree driving we have now been down for
>several weeks.
>I have bee reluctant to post my story and a bit depressed and needed to
>do some checking.
>In my several calls to various people feel ready to run this by those
>on the list.
>What happened is the car starting bucking on de-acceleration and got
>progressively worse till finally it stopped moving in downtown rush hour.
>I examined the speed sensor disk and could see the lines scratched off
>where the detector pair on the speed sensor is placed.
>I re-inked the disk lines with a sharpie and tried to makes several
>adjustments but could not get it going at all and had the car towed home.
>Jacked up the front end so the wheels could turn freely.
>Completely backed off the sensor and the motor would turn smoothly and
>slowly.
>In testing I adjusted the sensor closer in small increments to the disk
>and then the motor started to respond in a very erratic and rough
>stepping motions. The axial motion of the motor armature starting
>jumping about at what appears to be .125 inch so the disk is moving to
>and fro in this sputtering effect to the sensor and is very choppy The
>motor bearings seem noise free but the armatures axial movement maybe
>to great and the trouble possibly.
>When the motor is at rest the disk is about flush to the motor face.
>I can see the motor mounts with 3 bolts, so does one remove these and
>simply slide the motor out.
>Also how does the motor shaft engage to the transmission?
>Hopefully I am on the right track to fixing this.
>Danny
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Yahoo! Groups Links
>
><*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/solectria_ev/
>
><*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
><*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
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