EV Digest 5397
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: determining what motor type I've got
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: New batteries
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Low battery voltage limit and signage
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Battery patent rights
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: regulation current was:Some problems to solve
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Monster Garage
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
by Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Arctic Leash
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: mini-cars are available
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Spring spacers from JEEP fit 300zx
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Low battery voltage limit and signage
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Earth Day, Ampabout, Radio an' Stuff.
by <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance sought)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Off-the-shelf LED bar graph voltmeters available? (was: Off-the-shelf
multiple battery voltage display sought)
by Mark Freidberg <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance sought)
by "Joe Smalley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Monster Garage
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: Off-the-shelf LED bar graph voltmeters available? (was:
Off-the-shelf
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
hi Jim -
thanks for the response.
next time i go visit the motor i'll try to get a look at the wire
leading to the field terminal and see what's in there. (the motor &
electronics are over at a friend's place patiently awaiting the
"electric" portion of the project - we're still on the ICE/mechanical
steps with the suzukiclone host car(s) right now).
thanks again!
- Darin
Jim Husted wrote:
Hey Darin, all
An easy way to tell if it's a sep-ex is to look at the wire the field coils are made from. These can be seen by looking where they connect to the terminals. If it's a flat wire and usually pretty beefy then it's a series wound (est. 7 to 16 turns). If the wire is smaller round wire (pencil lead sized) then it's probably a sep-ex est(60 to 100 turns). If a motor hase both a thick and a thin wired windings then it's a compound (look for both thick and thin wire at connection points) If two coils are thick and two are really thin wires (est. hundreds of turns) then it's a shunted motor. They use shunted motors more for the pump motors over the drive motors but I've seen shunted drives before. Marko uses a 36/48 volt OEM rated 7" shunted Prestolite pump motor in his Fiat and admits it gets hot but then again he's been using it for over 7 years so it ain't that hot, hehehe!
If you can grab a few pics and send them to me I may recognize the motor and if you can aim for the inside teminal connection 8^ ) I might be able to see the coil wire.
Hope this helps
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 10:50 AM
Subject: Re: New batteries
> Roland,
> I am in the charger busines and am grateful to this list. I am learning a
> whole bunch.
>
> I believe that when you charge your batteries at voltages above 7.2 volts
> you need to do it at much reduced current levels.Could you be more
> detailed
> in this area for me?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Grasser
Hello Mark,
I am using a PFC-50B charger made by Manzanita Micro by Rich Rudman. Rich
may have more engineering specs on the different types of batteries charging
levels for different types of batteries.
This battery charger starts out as constant current type while the voltage
increases to the maximum voltage you dial in, for my battery pack of 180
volts, is 218 volts for 78 degrees F., 222V+ for 70 degrees and 225V for 65
degrees or what you calculated at other temperatures.
As the battery voltage increases to the maximum voltage that you set, which
is the bulk charge at either 80 to 95 percent SOC, becomes a constant
voltage, which is held at that voltage and the current starts to drop down
to 0.5 amps or to 0 amps.
The time for this ampere drop is set, so the amp-hour you replace in the
battery is about 10 percent more than you take out.
The 7.2 volt is low for a high amp-hour battery like I have or even much
higher for the 300 AH industrial cells I have. Some battery manufacture
recommended that if you discharge a battery to 20% SOC, which is the minimum
you should go with a PbA battery, is to start charging them at a lower rate
and increase to the 20 percent of the AH rate at the 50% SOC.
This is normal for the seal type batteries. In my Hydro-Cap 300 AH cobalt
very hard grid cells, it is normal to have a 200 amp charge rated at the 20%
SOC and the ampere in with seconds would start to decrease while holding the
voltage constant. These were charge to 252 volts for a 180 volt pack to a
specific gravity of 1.310 or more.
So it depends on the chemistry of the batteries.
I have been charging batteries like this now for 30 years, with the
batteries that are design for this charger. Before I bought the Trojan
batteries, the Trojan engineers, said I can charge then at full ampere to
about 80% SOC. As the batteries age, then you may have to reduce the charge
current depending on the bubbling factor.
Roland
>
>
>
> > Hello Calvin,
> >
> > I cannot find the specs. on a USB workaholic 6-volt battery.
> >
> > For complete info, the ampere-hour is needed for a 20 hr rate, and the
> > Reserved Minutes at 75 amps.
> >
> > Ok, lets do some ball park calculation compare to my 6 volt Trojans.
> >
> > If the ampere-hour rating of the battery is 200 Ah at a 20 hr rate, it
> > can
> > deliver 10 amperes for 20 hours (10 amperes x 20 hours = 200 amp-hrs)
> >
> > Actual battery capacity decrease as discharge current increase. So I
> > normally used the 75 amp at so many minutes of reserved capacity (which
> > a
> > EV may be in that average range of 50 to 100 amps).
> >
> > Lets say the reserved capacity at 75 amperes is 120 minutes, then:
> >
> > 120 min. / 60 = 2 hrs.
> >
> > Therefore:
> >
> > 2 hrs. x 75 amps = 150 amp-hrs usable at 75 amps.
> >
> >
> > For a good life of the battery, it is recommended not to charge more
> > than
> > 20 percent of the rated ampere-hour of the battery at the 20 hr rate, to
> > a
> > maximum of SOC (State Of Charge) to 80 percent.
> >
> > 200 ah x .20 = 40 amp charge.
> >
> > A 18 - 6 volt pack would be call a 108 volt pack. Each cell has
> > normally
> > a voltage of 2.11 per cell, so each 6 volt battery would read 6.33 or
> > about 114 volts for the 18 battery pack.
> >
> > After a new battery is manufacture and charge, the voltage of 6.33 volts
> > could still be at that rate after 2 or 3 weeks of resting.
> >
> > The maximum discharge should not be more than 5.16 volts, its is best
> > not
> > to go below 5.23 volts. This will be close to 20% State of Charge. Its
> > is best to not go below 50% S.O.C. which would be 6.05 volts per battery
> > or 108.9 volts for the battery pack.
> >
> > This voltage of 108.9 is the resting voltage, not the sag voltage when
> > the
> > battery is at loaded. Example at different amperes at 50% S.O.C. the
> > voltage sag would be:
> >
> > 0 amp = 114.00 volts
> > 75 amp = 101.16 volts
> > 150 amp = 91.62 volts
> > 225 amp = 82.08 volts
> > 300 amp = 72.54 volts
> >
> > A higher amp-hour battery will not sag this much, the maximum my 260 ah
> > battery will sag at 50% is to 155 volts.
> >
> > The charging rates depends on the battery temperature.
> >
> > I charge my 6 volts batteries to the following rates which are converted
> > to your 108 volt pack:
> >
> > Normal Charging
> >
> > 7.20 volts or 129.6 volts at 78 degrees F.
> > 7.35 volts or 132.3 volts at 70 degrees F.
> > 7.50 volts or 135.0 volts at 65 degrees F.
> >
> > Equalization Charging
> >
> > 7.78 volts or 140.0 volts at 78 degrees F.
> >
> > Trickle or Maintaining Charging
> >
> > 6.68 to 6.69 volts or 120.4 volts
> >
> >
> > The setting voltage after 2 hours for my batteries are at:
> >
> > 6.68 volts if I am not doing any maintaining charging.
> >
> > After 24 hours the voltage will be in a range of 6.38 to 6.40 volts
> > after
> > charging.
> >
> >
> > I do not used a BMS (Battery Manager System) or separate regulators for
> > each battery to maintain a balance. When the batteries become more than
> > 0.02 volts out of balance, than about every 6 months I will charge each
> > battery with a 6 volt smart charger that only takes less than 60 seconds
> > after I have charge them up to about 95% with the battery pack charger.
> >
> > My batteries are now going on 4 years and they are still perfect.
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Calvin King" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 7:25 AM
> > Subject: New batteries
> >
> >
> >> Thanks David for the explanation.
> >>
> >> Now for more needed information.
> >> Again using small words can someone explain what should be happening
> >> to the charge and batteries from the moment I plug the charger in to
> >> the time I disconnect? What should I be seeing? Oh, I am using a
> >> K&W BC20. Remember I have a pack of 18 6-volt Workaholic (USB)
> >> flooded batteries.
> >>
> >> For a pack of 18 6-volt batteries what should the charger out put be
> >> for normal charging? What is needed for equalizing the batteries?
> >> When the batteries are fully charged and have been at rest for two
> >> hours what should the batteries register on an emeter?
> >> Thanks,
> >> Calvin King
> >>
> >>
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Here is a strange one, the alignment up front is off because the back is
> squatting too much. the toe was to far in. In 1 month it completely wore
> off the tires, but they were really old rubber, looked new but had sat
> for over 3 years. This and a speed sensor are project 1 today.
>
Not that unusual. You need to get beefier springs to bring the geometry back in
line. Then you can
get the alignemnt correct. This will solve the tire wear and improve the
rolling resistence. Don't
bother putting good tires on or getting the alignment until you get the rear
end back up to spec.
And if you find the car bottoming out on bumps, you may want to get beefier
shocks too. These
changes will not only improve your ride, they will improve your safety.
I just took my truck down and got a load of top soil this morning. On the way
back the rear end
was squatting pretty good. The truck was very squirrely. Going straight down
the road the truck
wanted to wander back and forth. I crept along below the speed limit and pulled
over to let people
pass. I can't imagine driving around all the time like this. If you car is
weighed down in the
back, your car is doing the same thing.
Play it safe, get it fixed.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree. Using high voltage AC system at 80VDC is not as efficient
and cheap as using special fork lift's AC system designed for 80VDC.
I just replied to Peter's comment that one can *forget* about
using AC drive if they have low voltage battery, and this is
not the case - one CAN build it and it WILL work fairly well.
Whether it worth it for a user, is different question and not
the one we were discussing.
Perhaps, while very doable, not worth it.
Victor
Philippe Borges wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Victor Tikhonov" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 11:13 AM
Subject: Re: AC vs DC; Newbie Question
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Of course if you go with AC then you really will have to give up the
idea
of a low voltage conversion.
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Victor Tikhonov wrote:
Not true, though typically the higher voltage, the higher efficiency.
Lowest working voltage for TIM-600 and TIM-400 inverters is 80VDC.
Not talking about what is possible, seems to me, if max amp is usable at
such low nominal voltage, a 80V 325Arms AC system E-car is going to be a
pricey as inefficient slug.
I suppose it was the Peter's point also.
Just for apple to orange comparaison: some of new Forklift system using AC
at 80V go to 550Arms, such are designed to "low" voltage giving efficient
and powerful...low speed EV :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
--
Thank you and best regards,
Victor Tikhonov
President and CEO
Metric Mind Corporation
http://www.metricmind.com
10645 SE Malden Street
Portland OR 97266-8028 USA
503-680-0026 ph
503-774-4779 fx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
SLA is just so readily available and cheap. It's been the solution of
choice so far.
You might think about the product life cycle too. I mean, if you design
am expensive NiMH/NiCd system that will last for 20+ years, it will
probably be discarded in 5 yrs as someone outgrows the idea or they
become obsolete. In 5 yrs there may be relatively cheap, long-life LiPo
cells available that would obsolete the NiMH design.
Danny
Steve Arlint wrote:
Greetings,
Well I am still working on building a production prototype electric motor
scooter. I have just completed the concept prototype:
http://lewis.up.edu/EGR/SRDesign06/umpqua/. It has been great fun and lots of
nights in the lab.
Ok, there's the background. Here's my problem. The batteries. I just can't
win. Mainly its business and politics. Right now, I am leaning toward NIMH
battereis. As I dived deeper into research it seems that Ovonic completely
owns the rights to NIMH in the whole developed world. As in, all other
companies have to liscence the right from them. I am concerned that if things
work out good for me and my buddies, that because they have so much influence
in this market they could controll my business in one way or another...Or
another company who has more influence in the NIMH world could edge me out. I
don't care a ton about money, but I do want to be able to make my product.
Mabey I am over reacting. I was just suprised that one company has that kind
of control over a energy source.
How is this for other battery types? As far as I know the general concept of a
lead acid or nicad batteries are public domain. I think it is the same for
li-ion. I hope someone elaborates on this.
If li-ions didn't have that calendar life issue, I would switch to them. There
are a couple of other small issues as well.
What do you all think would be a good battery solution for an electric motor
scooter? I can work out charge/discharge/balancing issues. That's just solved
by putting in lots of time in the lab.
Thanks in advance,
Steven Arlint
Team Umpqua Electric Vehicles
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Funny thought... A Reg with out dissapation But still with charger
> control, WILL regulate the whole string, and keep all concerned
> under control.
It should regulate voltage; but it won't balance the batteries because
there's no mechanism for different currents in each one.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/14/06, DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Rich and Shawn,
> I need to ask, when Jessie says, "stupid electric car" was that part of
> the script, jessie twisting the knife or just covering his butt if it
> bombed?
In one of the articles I've read about Monster Garage, one of the producers
refers to Jessie as the "anti-host" - he literally does all sorts of things
the host should never do - often not appearing on any given day of the
Monster build, casually trashing this or that guest. The first two times
that Monster Garage hosted all-girl guest teams are good examples of the
dark side of Jessie - he doesn't help them much and his commentary is all
about how they're going to fail - which both teams did. (Side note: I
haven't watched MG much recently, so I don't know if any all-girl teams have
ever succeeded)
There's an old saying: all publicity is good publicity. You and I may be
disappointed about the performance of the electric car they built in a few
days out of batteries meant for cordless drills... but there are countless
others who will watch it and think, hey, they made this electric monster car
out of drill batteries! And it got 14.5! Sure, it's no supercar but
14.5is at least respectable.
As I write this, oil is above $75 per barrel, gas here in CA is above
$3.00/gallon, and both are continuing to head skyward. Stupid gas cars.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sat, 22 Apr 2006 10:09:10 -0500, Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>What I can't figure out is why lead is selling for record prices, but
>when I take my scrap lead-acid batteries back for recycling, I still
>only get 2 cents per pound -- that's the same as it's been for over 10
>years.
Probably because the scrap value of the lead is swamped by the cost of
extracting it from the batteries and disposing of the residue.
Form is everything. I went Friday with a friend to haul a load of
scrap copper wire to the recycler. All solid #8 or larger. Considered
Grade A. $1.94 a pound! Stranded and other types of wire is
considered Grade B and brings about 30 cents/lb less. Dirty wire is
Grade C, knock off another 30 cents. They won't take insulated wire
at all which is why most folks who recycle wiring scraps burn it
first. It's still dirty wire but at least it'll sell.
If you pull the lead out, clean all the active material off, melt it
and cast it into ingots then you'll get a premium price for it.
John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.johngsbbq.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
Don't let your schooling interfere with your education-Mark Twain
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Those are certainly not the $30 Wally World special. I bet they'd work
alright though.
Thanks for the links
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Joe Smalley
Sent: Friday, April 21, 2006 9:33 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Arctic Leash
RVs have 50 amp 240 Volt power cable retractors such as:
http://www.google.com/search?q=cache:0QP8BPAW14cJ:adcache.rvtraderonline.com
/3/8/0/75883780.htm+%22power+cord+retractor%22+RV&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=22
Reels ready for cable are at:
http://www.lkgoodwin.com//more_info/cable_reels/cable_reels.shtml
Some reels with and without cables are shown halfway down this page:
http://www.monstermarketplace.com/googlesearch.asp?q=rv%20power%20cord
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike & Paula Willmon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 20, 2006 11:17 PM
Subject: RE: Arctic Leash
> I too was considering putting one of these under the hood and letting the
> cord pull through a hatch where the radiator used to be. However I'd like
> to make use of 220V when possible. Has anyone seen a 220V version of one
of
> these retractable reels?
>
> Mike
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 22 Apr 2006 at 8:40, jerryd wrote:
> For charging all
> you need is a dumb charger and an E-meter to turn it off by
> relay.
Assuming we're talking about the MR/MRE range, if you want the warranty, and
full cycle life, you'll have to follow Saft's charging instructions. An E-
meter can indeed be adapted to do this job, but just shutting the charger
off isn't enough. The charger also has to deliver the correct overcharge,
provide safety shutoffs for excessive amp-hours added and/or overtemp, and
ensure that if the module temperature is too high at start of charge,
charging is delayed until temperature falls enough.
Saft will also want to see your battery containment plans to make sure they
have proper cooling.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When I put 13 orbitals in back, the back of my Z car squatted down quiet
a bit.
I found a set of stiff lowering springs when I was at the wreching yard
and put those in, while they were stiffer and gave a much improved ride,
they also lowered the ride height and the rear camber was obvious and
the CV's were at quite an angle.
Yesterday I was looking at a jeep in a parking lot and noticed the
bottom end of the coil springs on the front of the jeep looked the same
as the rear springs on the ZX. So I stopped by the 4x4 shop and found
some 1.750 thick urethane spacers for a JEEP, they fit pretty good. With
the shorter stiff springs, I didn't need to use a spring compressor,
which is good there is little room in there.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00085.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00086.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00087.jpg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My opinion:
The legal system and recycling programs are not compensated for inflation
nor volatility in the metals commodity market.
The recycling law says that they have to pay you $5 for the core when you
buy a new battery therefore that is what you get.
For a while, the recycling was a burden and they may have been losing money
at $5, but now they may be making money with the $5 handling fee.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lee Hart" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 8:09 AM
Subject: Re: Lead prices, Short Circuses!
> What I can't figure out is why lead is selling for record prices, but
> when I take my scrap lead-acid batteries back for recycling, I still
> only get 2 cents per pound -- that's the same as it's been for over 10
> years.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The rear ride height should not change the toe on the front.
You can set the toe anywhere you want and the rear height should not change
it significantly.
The rear ride height affects the caster therefore causing stability problems
at speed and steering centering problems as all speeds.
Always set your toe within 1/8 inch of zero to prevent tearing up your tires
so quickly.
Three years is not really old for tires unless they are race tires.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 6:46 AM
Subject: Re: Low battery voltage limit and signage
> Here is a strange one, the alignment up front is off because the back is
> squatting too much. the toe was to far in. In 1 month it completely wore
> off the tires, but they were really old rubber, looked new but had sat
> for over 3 years. This and a speed sensor are project 1 today.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi EVerybody;
Among other things todayis/was Earth Day. My Earth Day festivities read like
an " Ampabout thing. My 15 seconds of fame last Sept, a New Haven Register
article about my Rabbit, wasn't forgotten! One of the guyz on the WPKN Radio
had remenbered and surfed into the net, traked me down, and asked me if I would
bring a EV to the Earth Day Festivities at the New Morning Natural Foods, like
health foods, store in Woodbury, CT. A quick google search that it was about 48
miles each way. I sed " Sure" But I'll need a friendly wall outlet, when I got
there.So with the car as juicy as it would go, I set out along the back roads
toward Woodbury, trying to stay around 100-150 amps. Some of my route took me
on I-84 and I had to steal a bit more to manage 50-55, they have " slow Vehicle
Lanes" so that takes the sting out of being slow. You think gas was free, the
way people tear by you like you are parked!EVen the big Diseasel trux sweep by
like they were electric, with overhead wire pow!
er. Hey! Now THAT'S not a bad idea, if we hafta have monster trux, string up
the interstartes with wire, like the streets of Seattle, San Fran,
andVancouver.They could carry a few tons of batteries to get to the terminal,
off the hiway. Then WE could fit our flivers with trolley poles, too!
Anyhow it is sorta nice wafting along on E power on the Leval! The damn
hills kill you, though! But every hill haz a downside, Gees! Regen would be
nice, though.EVentually arrived at Woodbury and the Earth Day Thing, pooring
rain, damp and cool, compared with the tropical weather we have been
having.Pulled through the No Parking pilons, they were EXPECTING me. That sure
is nice! "Can ya park over by the Silver Prius" yeah! Sure. The Silver Prius
was Electro Energy, Inc's THEY are working with Cal Cars on the Plugitin Prius.
They had one with Nimh batteries in it. THEY are building them by hand, had
some nice mogules, in the trunk.They are working on Better Batteries and seem
confident that they can get around, by being different( Better) than the
squatted on patents.
Heartwarming as they are based in Danbury CT. MY time zone, EVen<g>! Will
definately drop in on them on their home turf!
WPKN radio, out of Bridgeport was doing a live call in show, right there in
the rain, in a tent out front. I was waved aboard and a mike was right there.
They could "Cue in" or what EVer they do, to put you on. Well, I wasn't really
prepared to go on LIVE on CT's Airwaves, but the moderater just sed "Introduce
yourself and we'll go from there" Cool1 He got me going, and WPKN is NOT a
commercial, or PBS thing. He said " Say It" It's OK to say what you felt. Well
I didn't launch in to General Murders, Fraud, or Crapsler<g>! But I DID cover
the Burbank EV-1 vigel, the shootong down of CARB, Wheee! I was getting on to
it. MY Microphone! I got going, as they asked a lot of good EV stuff and Nice
Folks called in with good questions. Hell, I was on about a half hour!! Gees! I
should add a Radio Stattion to my Perfect World, if I had Osama's and Sadamn's
money! You can really get out there on the air. I guess that's why the Click
and Clack, the Tappet Bros on PBS are so popular.H!
ow duz WPKN do it? By listener Support and the good old Begathons ,as they
hafta scratch for the operating expenses and it is an all volunteer thing. No
paid help! THAT'S incredable in this day and age! I belong to a Trolley Museum
that is like that!Too.
Voluntererism, if that's a word, thank God, or the diety of your choice, is
alive and well, in the USA.Well I don't make any money doing EV stuff. The
payback is getting another EV and EV grin going. Oh I can't just GIVE all my
stuff away, but if I don't mark it up, a bunch. When I start to selloff my
fleet, it will be pretty much at cost. Like Steve Clunn has done in the past.
Oh Yeah! I hardwired, like made room in the Rabbit's former engine room, for
my PFC -20. What a wonderful piece of equipment!! Plugitin to what EVer power
you can beg, borrow or steal! With my wimpy extension chord it runs COOL at
ether 120 or 240, no more "stench Chords! Moulten plugs, smoke! Had the car
over to a friend's house, he saw 20 amps going in at 120 volts and was
incredulous thast the cord, plug and socket was stone cold! He , in his
fantesy's of owning an EV wired a nice ground faulted 120 outlet on the garage
outside wall. Had he followed through and BUILT an EV he was ready! What is so
truly amazing, at least to me, how WELL the PFC thing works, The Power Facter
is the " Thing" for sucking amps on the charge thing. With my Bad boy,
rectomfire Variac THING I lived with I had to be SUPER carefukll thst I didn't
turn it up TOO loud, and trip the breaker. When you are a "Guest" somewhere it
is embarrasing to have to hunt down somebody" I blew out your Circuit B!
reaker" Would ya reset it" Most of the time they are CLUELESS to where it IS
to reset it! With the volume knob on " Full Bore" I plug it in, but the outlet
was sorta soft, only getting 15 amps! SHIT! I'm NEVER gunna get home, was my
first thoughts. I'm gunna haft to camp out here, to get 48 miles back! Oh well,
go enjoy the show and do yur Airtime thing
Wow! There WAS interest in EV'S! I think I coulda sold a few turnkey
conversions! EVen ones that wouldn't go 48 miles in one sitting. " I just need
one for about 10 miles a day" OK you don't need a 3 million lb Rabbit. You
could get by on HALF as many as I have" I tried to make the point that EV's
arent rocket science. The cables to the controller to the batteries and
motor.That the Rocket science stuff has been done FOR you, tip of the Hat to
Oatmar, Damon C. and Rich Rudman. People commented on how nice the PFC was
doing it's thing. Sheesh, If I had the right plug adapters I probably coulda
swiped 240 v. and been fuklly charged in the 5 hours I was there? Before the
PFC was kicking around my shop, plugged in with an Anderson connecter as
needed. but it was so happy to be built in, i t purrs like a stuffed ,
contented cat, of which I have one running, now, just North of the
Keyboard<g>!" Wiirr Purr"as cats do best.sleep! It was nice to have folks say:"
I heard you on th!
e radio, and came down to see the electric"Way COOL!
Until I started using the PFC as a primary charger did I realize what a gem
of a piece of equipment it is. By about 4PM things were spooling down, I mean I
was BUSY with legions of folks showing great interest in the car. I mean in the
good old dollar daze of gas prices , nobody gave a shit about EV's but at 3 bux
a gal. there was sure a hellova lot of interest!! My homemade sign saying " I'm
saving some Petro for my Grandkids" Got rave reviews. No Lie I AM gunna be one
in Aug! Boy, already. Aint Ultra sound wonderful? My other signs were to
political for the List. But I got away with it on the Radio<g>!Swiped one
sticker from the train.:"Quiet Car, Please be considerate of your Fellow
Travelers"On the train, that means" No Cell fones, loud obnoxious talking. Want
it as quiet as a librarry in here"The Conducter will say. It is amazing how
popular the Quiet Cars are on Amtrak. If you have ever ridden a train with a
shouting cell fone user. "Hi DEAR I"M ON THE TRAIN NOW> BLA!
BLA BLA LIKE I"M SHOUTING NOW! And you are praying for the damn battery to
die, but, Feh! They can plugitin at the handy seat outlet featured on our
trains, now. Prey for the FAA NOT to allow Cells' in flight, like on an
aeryplane.Bring your EV aboard Amtrak, and charge it. Hell, some of the
suitcases people schleppe aboard the train are as big as Volkswagens, anyhow!
Anyhow, back to the story. Things had wound down by 4PM so It was time to
roll up the 'stench chord and give it a go. Headed out on the hiway, VERY
lightly on the juice. Made good time, soon Waterbury was receding in the rear
view mirror, but painfuly slow as there are several miles of upgrades, they
would stall a frate train and make a passenger job drag down pretty slow.But
for an EV its AMPS, baby, to stay at a respectable truck lane at 40 mph I had
to spend more that was in my " Bank" Battery bank. BY Meridan, I was DOWN to 90
volts. My poor batterys doing a silent " STOP IT!" I glid into a restaurant, to
sniff out an outlet. I drove around the damn place two times. Now, as a EV
driver I'm damn good at sniffing them out, but , Clean, None outside. OK onward
to Middle bury, just down the road, downhill, the laws of physics still in
effect, ya coast along! Ah, a sorta Mauly place with an open restaurant at the
end, pull in and cruise the open parking lot along the build!
ing. AH! Yes the Dentist's office! THERES an outlet by the cellar window, In
Stealth mode oozed over and parked. Deployed the chord, plugitin. The PFC
whirrs to life! YES! Sucking up 20 amps. Off to the Restaurant for dinner. The
Swardfish was good with a great Cole Slaw side dish. This is at the Lloyds'
Restaurant right at the turnoff to Powder Ridge Sky place. Yes , People ski in
CT still, a bit dispite global warming.Shameless plug here we BOTH ate, car and
I. Was Fed up in about an hour, let's go back to the car. With my Bad Boy it
woulda probably tripped the godamn breaker, by now, so you wouldn't know if you
got any juice enough to do any good. But the PFC was purring along about 18
amps! Got about 15 miiles to go, over to Durham, and down 79 to 148 to
Killingworth.SOME of it down hill, so were rolling along, but by the second or
third hill, it was all over, volts dropping, creeping up the hill in 1st gear.
stop, give the torchered battery a break, it's rainy, cold, I!
wanna go home! 3 godamn miles to go! The emergency flashers are an es
sential part of an EV!! Don't leave home without them!On the mighty T 145's
second or third wind I crept into the garage and pluged it in to 240. The
ampmeter said 30 amps from the getgo, and when I looked awile ago it was STILL
at 30 amps ,as the batteies were starving!
Now, folks out there in Radio land; DON'T DO that to your batteries! I hope
they will forgive me? By lightly driving around the next few daze I normally
don't do 90 miles in a day, anyhow, but hadI a 240 I think it would have taken
it in stride. Hmmm? 90 miles is about the tenth of driving to Chicago<g>!With
enough 240 v outlets it could be done in one lifetime, especially with a PFC
-50!
In summing up; Thank you Rich Rudman, and Manzanita Micro!!! For a great
product that we only dreamed of in my EFP and Citicar daze.Not to, but I will,
Damon Crocket's Rapture controllers, something Osama's money couldn't have
bought you, years ago. And the great little Sevcon DC to dc 128 to 12 volt box.
You hook it up and forgetabout it. Lights are loud and clear, "ALWAYS" as the
Wall *Mart folks say.And, of course my Warfield rebuilt ADC motor, failhfully
rolling along, had it balanced, Oh so Smooooth, now! Origional brushes, too! AS
I FINALLY built battery box covers, if anybody remembered seeing my Rabbit it
had a sort of first things first, appearence. " I'll finish it up EVentually.
EVentually finally came and I DID cover them up, no more short circuses with
bikes or metal garbage cans! As the battery boxes were designed to self
ventalate going down the road, and so you could hose down the battey without
flooding the car, so it let road noise in, before. Now with t!
he hatches closed it is SO quiet! Shoulda done that years ago! Oh not as cool
as JW's Meanie"s Remote control batterey racks/ trash compacter setup<G>!I have
half inch plywood covers hinged and the nice gooey weatherstripping stuck on
the edges, it seals up nice, now. It was almost like building another car,
finishing up the loose ends. Wall, to wall FLOORS! too. Nice!
So, were honeymooning again. SO Guyz, you newbees, get busy! Get those EV's
running!And youse Old Timers, too finish'em up and get OUT there!
Seeya at Joliet? Show of hands: Whose going???
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
The fuse should be located close to the battery terminal (where it will be
difficult to get at). If you put it at the far end of each wire, then if two
wires in that cable short together, the fuse won't blow and you'll have a fire
(or worse).
Note that "fuse" can mean any part that is guaranteed to fail open without
starting a fire. It could be an actual fuse, or a circuit breaker, resistor,
thin wire chosen to melt, etc.
I'm about ready to install some batts for my Geo, and at this point the plan
is to place a barrier strip along the top edge of the main battery box and
connect voltage monitoring wires to it from each battery.
Instead of fumbling with fuses, fuse holders, and their connections, could I
just use a thin wire length between the positive terminal of each battery and
the barrier strip? Thin wires that would melt and open the circuit in case of a
short without catching fire? Wire lengths would be 2-4 feet at most. What guage
wire would work?
In addition to just monitoring voltages, it would be nice to be able to
charge an individual battery if necessary with say 2 amps current. Is this
doable with the thin wire scheme?
From the barrier strip, normal guage wires would run to the dash console area
and connect to whatever voltage display(s) are employed.
Mark
---------------------------------
New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save big.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Where can a 10 segment LED bar graph voltmeter display be purchased?
Mark
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Why not just use a separate LED bar graph display for each battery and then
arrange them together like the previously mentioned graphic equalizer?
It doesn't take much to build a bar graph display with a LM3914. Arrange your
batteries into roughly 12V modules and montior them using something like this:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/batmon12.htm
It's not off the shelf, but it's still pretty simple and relatively cheap.
It's what I'm planning on bulding, I'm just trying to find a suitable 10
segment bar graph display.
---------------------------------
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The protection needs to:
-Open the conductor before the insulation breaches (fuses and fusible links
do this).
-Open cleanly (Proper voltage ratings on fuses assure this)
-Not burn (materials selection in fuses assures this)
When you use "thin wire" what may happen is:
-The insulation melts before the conductor opens causing a short into the
next wire or to ground. This fuels the electrical fire instead of preventing
one.
-The wire opening may cause an arc that exits the insulation and acts like
an arc welder to any material in the vicinity including other wires or
flammable materials. This fuels the electrical fire instead of preventing
one.
-If the wires are just overloaded, the insulation may burn causing an
insulation fire that catches other materials in the vicinity on fire
including other wires or flammable materials. This fuels the electrical fire
instead of preventing one.
If you use thin wire, make sure it opens before breaching the insulation,
opens cleanly with full pack voltage applied, and does not burn. I use fuses
to make sure.
If you do not want to charge through the wires, you may use resistors
between the terminals and the wires. The resistors will prevent excessive
current to flow but allow a DVM to read the battery voltage with a trivial
error.
Joe Smalley
Rural Kitsap County WA
Fiesta 48 volts
NEDRA 48 volt street conversion record holder
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Freidberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 10:04 PM
Subject: Re: Thin wires as fuses? (was: Battery connections assistance
sought)
> Lee Hart wrote:
>
> The fuse should be located close to the battery terminal (where it will
be difficult to get at). If you put it at the far end of each wire, then if
two wires in that cable short together, the fuse won't blow and you'll have
a fire (or worse).
>
> Note that "fuse" can mean any part that is guaranteed to fail open without
starting a fire. It could be an actual fuse, or a circuit breaker, resistor,
thin wire chosen to melt, etc.
>
>
>
> I'm about ready to install some batts for my Geo, and at this point the
plan is to place a barrier strip along the top edge of the main battery box
and connect voltage monitoring wires to it from each battery.
>
> Instead of fumbling with fuses, fuse holders, and their connections,
could I just use a thin wire length between the positive terminal of each
battery and the barrier strip? Thin wires that would melt and open the
circuit in case of a short without catching fire? Wire lengths would be 2-4
feet at most. What guage wire would work?
>
> In addition to just monitoring voltages, it would be nice to be able to
charge an individual battery if necessary with say 2 amps current. Is this
doable with the thin wire scheme?
>
> From the barrier strip, normal guage wires would run to the dash console
area and connect to whatever voltage display(s) are employed.
>
>
> Mark
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> New Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Call regular phones from your PC and save
big.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 4/11/06, DM3 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> The unfortunate thing was that the Duuude (Mr Lion) had to mention how
> "we" wouldn't see a Lion EV pack in "our lifetime" (thats a long time if
> your 20), you can see the extent of his visoin. I think he has been
> around the lumber department at home depot a little too long.
I just have to add to that...
Around 5 years ago when I asked AC Propulsion guys about Li-Ion batteries,
they said a decent pack would run about half a million dollars. Earlier
this week when Ian Wright (of Wrightspeed motors) gave a talk at Google, he
said he had built his prototype e-car with a 500-pound Lithium-Ion pack that
only cost $40,000. (Unfortunately the exact chemistry and the name of his
supplier are still secrets, and he sometimes said Li-Ion and sometimes
mentioned Lithium Polymer. Sigh. But I can't blame him.)
So, hmmm, $500,000 to $40,000 in 5 years. I'm a lot older than 20, but it
sure seems likely that LiIon EV packs will happen in my lifetime. And don't
forget all the fringe battery technologies; nearly all of them will fail but
there are plenty of surprises happening in the lab. Even ultracaps are
seeing some very interesting developments - like the EEStor caps that
deliver 52kWHr in 400 pounds. (Which sounds like a pipe dream until you
consider that they have been funded by Kleiner Perkins, a VC firm known for
good picks and due diligence)
All in all it reminds me of IBM's chairman, Thomas Watson, who said in 1943
that the entire world market for computers was, maybe, 5. And now everyone
has several - in our cars, our phones, even the remote controls for our
TVs. No matter how many times some people see the graphs of the falling
costs in high-tech (computers, hard drives, memory, Li-Ion batteries), and
the rising cost of oil ($75 per barrel this week), some people just refuse
to draw the obvious conclusion.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 10:38 PM 22/04/06 -0700, Mark wrote:
Where can a 10 segment LED bar graph voltmeter display be purchased?
Hi Mark - and all
Plenty of places have these available in kit form, just a no-brainer shove
all the components into the PCB and practice your soldering skills.
If you have up to 15 batteries http://www.jstraubel.com/batbox/monitor.htm
has a monitor available, although I know no more about it than the web site
shows.
Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Why not just use a separate LED bar graph display for each battery
and then arrange them together like the previously mentioned graphic equalizer?
It doesn't take much to build a bar graph display with a LM3914. Arrange
your batteries into roughly 12V modules and montior them using something
like this:
http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/batmon12.htm
I'm in process of doing something based around this chip - but the outputs
will be optocoupled off the PCBs, so that all the displays will be attached
to the vehicle 12V instead of the traction voltage.
I have concerns about bringing so many wires from the traction pack up to
the dash, whatever the traction voltage is, there will be the full voltage
between two points in the display assembly. Also, how do you turn it off,
do you let it burn off power 24/7 or do you add a stack of relays?
I'm making piggyback boards for the Rudman Regs that sample the voltage
each reg sees, optocouples out the reg status leds, plus has an LM3914 that
gets enabled in a slow scan manner. The data buss that takes the outputs
from the optos is then loaded into a display driver chip for the bargraph
assembly on the dash. The LM3914s will be in dot-mode, so only one led per
bar will be on, resulting in a horizontal bar showing the batteries
relative to each other. It is a clunky, unsophisticated way of doing it,
but should work well, has nothing programmable, and is fully isolated.
The cabling from the regulator assembly to the dash will have the following
wires:
* Clock (for the stepping from one channel to the next)
* Reset (so that the stepping at both ends is in synch)
* 10 lines that carry the data from the outputs of the LM3914s
* 11th line for regulator undervoltage
* 3 spares that I expect to find a use for (since the display hold chips at
the dash are intended to be 2 x 7-way chips, so I can hold 14 'bits'.
* Ground
* 12V to power the dash module.
Since I'm now in the throes of revisiting the sketches and plans I made
months ago to finalise the design and get on with building, things are in a
state of uncertainty about many of the finer points of implementation.
Regards
James
--- End Message ---
