EV Digest 5459
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: DC-DC converters
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Safe charging (Was Art. 625 etc.)
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "David Ankers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Does 220mpg violate the laws of physics?
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) "EV" (related?) Biz Plan
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Sanden Electric Compressor - was DIY air-conditioning
by "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: DC-DC converters, related questions
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Venturi Fetish Video on Google Video
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Asking questions on EVDL a sin?
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Ground fault finally fixed - Charger still works!
by Cory Cross <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Schaeff Drive Axle Motor from Hyster forklift
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by "Joe Wasson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) TdS Report #3: Tour De Sol To Showcase Over 65 "Green" Cars At Saratoga
Spring Auto Show
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) How to search the Archives
by Chet Fields <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) NEDRA Nationals - date chosen yet?
by "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: "EV" (related?) Biz Plan
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 8 May 2006 5:42, Cor van de Water wrote:
John,
Yes, that one should work IF you can crank the output
voltage up to your battery voltage (13.8 .. 14.5V)
It is adjustable, so far so good.
Doubling may work, depending how close they are in output
voltage and current sharing capabilities.
Here is where we learn that at least one of the two required semesters
of EE for this mechanical engineer was wasted.
Say you had 2 identical converters, adjusted to the same output voltage,
could you take the outputs in parallel and get 60A available for 12v
power?
And yes - you better wire all loads across the entire pack
or you will create unbalances in the pack.
I have looked at a diagram someone had posted of their EV wiring, and it
just showed the DC-DC converter wired across the pack voltage on the
same path as the controller, but (back to that wasted semester) is that
okay with 100's of amps flowing through the wire? Is there a shunt or
something else in the configuration?
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just to let you know French rules:
upper 10Kw charge power you have to register your charging station at
prefecture
The local must have natural or forced air circulation corresponding to 0.05
NI (1-R) m3/h
N is cells number
I is maximum current charger can output during egalisation
R is minimal gas recombination rate
exemple for my Clio with 19 Saft STM5-100MRE
N = 95
I=7A
R=55%
System should pulse : 0,05 x 90 x 7 x 0,45 = 14,96 m3/h air
Have to be present in the charging statione:
1 extincteur CO2.
- 1 eye cleaning system
- 1 cardboard "no smoking".
- concrete floor with slope to "old water" pipe evacuation
- acid resistant paint on the floor
- waterproof lighting system
- building ceiling design should not permit gaz stagnation
...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 3:17 PM
Subject: Re: Safe charging (Was Art. 625 etc.)
> On 5/6/06, Neon John <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 6 May 2006 13:35:45 +0100, "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> > >A question: apart from the hydrogen, are "battery fumes" from flooded
> > >lead-acid batteries considered safe to breathe in general? Nothing
> > >even slightly toxic or irritant in them? Even in the case of an
> > >equalising charge or thermal run-away?
> > >They can certainly make an unpleasant smell, and I know from
> > >experience what the fumes do to exposed metalwork in the vicinity.
> > >So, when I'm doing renewable energy installations I always follow the
> > >recommendation to vent the batteries to the outside.
> >
> > Probably not like a spring breeze but a whiff isn't going to put you
> > down either. I've never seen any evidence that the mist contains
> > anything other than sulfuric acid mist and hydrogen sulfide. Back in
> > the Good Old Days (TM) over in nearby Copper Hill, men spent their
> > lives breathing acid fumes while working in the sulfuric acid plant
> > located atop the copper mine. None of 'em set any records for
> > longevity but they didn't drop over dead at the first whiff either.
> >
> > I figure that this is one of those things where the unpleasant odor
> > gives more than enough warning to breathe elsewhere.
>
> Thanks. So, it doesn't seem like an bad idea to have some ventilation
> in enclosed parking/charging areas. Even if it's just for the sake of
> reducing the sulphur smell.
> The NEC specification may be over the top but the idea seems reasonable
enough.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nice links. These are cheap and could be a good solution?? Well if you are
on 110v.
http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=212&id
product=22358
As long as you have away of checking that all batteries actually got
charged, to a newbie like me, I don't really see any thing to match them on
price?
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Milliron
Sent: Monday, 8 May 2006 10:26 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
On Sat, 6 May 2006 21:58:13 -0700, you wrote:
>What would you define as a "powerful and reliable individual charger"?
>
>Please give me an example of such a device and how you would hook it up.
How about this? Why build it if you can buy it?
http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/deltran_shop_charger.pdf
http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewCat_P.asp?idCategory=211
http://www.ineedparts.com/store/pc/viewCat_P.asp?idCategory=222
Matt Milliron [EMAIL PROTECTED]
1981 Jet Electrica, Ford Escort
My daughter named it, "Pikachu".
It's yellow and black, electric and
contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
http://evalbum.com/702.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Once again, some really good points, Jeff. I was not aware of the time
factor, nor the amount of energy required to refine the gasoline. What
an awesome argument for EVs.
-Mike
On 5/5/06, Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I believe I was one of the ones that said that.
Your equations look bang on, same ones I remember, I was just useing
different assumptions.
The honda insight is truly a great combination of effects, it is NOT
just the motor.
I don't think it is a co-incidence that the original article chose
220mpg and the phrase "quadruple the effiency"
220/4 is 55mpg and is the answer to the example problem in the first
year thermo dynamics book that uses a 1988 oldsmobile cutlass on level
grade in still air at 70degrees F. Again, the claim is with just the
motor improvements.
While this is off topic, I would like to point out 1 more thing.
Time.(this is often ignored) It may be possible to recover enough heat
if given enough time but as the temperatures get close, it is like
chargeing batteries near full, the rate of change slows down. This added
variable of time(impeanece to change) gets in the way of usefull
effiency level recovery schemes (unless the heat equivilent of
superconductors is developed.)
Tying this back into on-topic : Compareing to an electric motor system.
ICE makes good use of 20% wastes 80%, we have to try and recover from
the 80% but it is recovered after we already expended what we needed say
to accelerate up to 88mph.
Electric drive trains make good use of 60%-90% wasteing 10%-40%. we have
already gone 3-4 times furthor or faster before trying to recover
energy. Less to recover in the time alotted.
If it truly takes 12kwh to refine a gallon of gas, they I say, "why
bother?" Even if you can get 69% effiency, i can still go furthor on
12kwh than you can on a gallon of gas.
I would like to know how far an insight would go on electricity for
comparison. What would the wh/mile be with all the low rolling
resistance, low mass, low drag, and low frontal area mods;
Guessing 150 wh/mile means that 12kwh would go 80 miles ???
This does bring up a hybrid idea. If we could recover say 1/2 the energy
in the exhaust heat from an ICE engiine, we would recover more energy
than is going out the shaft. ie 25:75-->75/2=37.5*.8=30% So including
effiency losses to convert to shaft power electrically, we should be
able to have a goal of doubling mileage. The reason this may have merit
is that it would increase mileage when cruising too, not just recaptured
from deceleration. Unfortunantly the math for conversion of heat to
electricity is, at the moment, poor, but there is a silver lining.
Saying that a thermoelectric module is ineffient means that the heat
that doesn't get converted into energy, also means enough energy goes
thru to allow a second stage. The limit being how much it slows heat
transfer. and since energy is related to deltaQ/deltaT, there would be
an optimum. At least a storage mass could be used; Your cooling down
thermal converter would continue after you shut off the ICE.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Ankers wrote:
Nice links. These are cheap and could be a good solution?? Well if you are
on 110v.
http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=212&id
product=22358
As long as you have away of checking that all batteries actually got
charged, to a newbie like me, I don't really see any thing to match them on
price?
Is it just me or are the Sentinel chargers just re-branded Soneil units?
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I was talking to the folks delivering beer to a restaurant this am.
Pallets of kegs plus pallets of cases.
They were using a 24V hand pallet, very much like this one:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Yale-Self-Propelled-Pallet-Jack-6000-lb-Forklift_W0QQitemZ7616028341QQcategoryZ97185QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
or tinyURL here:
http://tinyurl.com/p4z38
The operators didn't know which size floodie they were using, but the
choices per the nameplate said options are 300lb or 500lb batt.
(I think it was)
Point is, they rely on a dial of "idiot lights" to gauge remaining
charge, and of course it depends on how much they use it in the day as
to the state of charge at the end of the day...
Commonly the battery (per lights) is 1/2 empty by the end of the day,
then is plugged in back at the warehouse at night.
So here's the plan:
Develop and market a charger that runs off the diseasal truck engine,
and plug the battery into the truck between stops? The hand pallet
stays at the back of the cargo box of the truck while on the road, so
this would be a rather long cable run perhaps, but the real question
might be, given the cost to install, how much would such a setup extend
the life of the pallet truck battery, if it can be plugged in in the
way, between stops, to reduce the average daily discharge to perhaps
80% rather than 50%?
If the idea makes for a practical product, then I hope some of the
forklift-friendly EV folk here can make some money off the idea.
Thanks all
Lock
Toronto
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is it just me or are the Sentinel chargers just re-branded Soneil units?
I'm about 99.9% sure of it.
-Ryan
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here is the reply:
I bought it from http://www.partsonsale.com/main.htm, from Ray Boggs.
Looks like he is still in business (mostly focused on solar).
>John Wrote:
I bought a partially converted vehicle and it just came with the
purchase. I have no idea where the previous owner got the Sanden Unit.
I sent him an e-mail yesterday so I will reply back when he responds...
John Grigg
>Bryan Wrote:
> Wow, looks like a fun toy. Where did you acquire that thing and are
there any more available? :-) I tried finding a source for one of those
sanden electric a/c compressors a couple years ago and never had any
luck. Masterflux makes an electric A/C compressor also, but as I recall
is quite expensive. Any other alternatives out there?
-Bryan
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Grigg. John wrote:
>
>> Will we are on the topic of Sanden Compressors; I have acquired a
>> Electric Sanden unit(new in box) originally from the electric Ford
>> Ranger. It came with the motor controller, computer module,
>> electrical schematic, and compressor unit.
>> http://www.sanden.com/products/electric.html
>>
>> My only issue is finding the right plumbing for it and how-to plumb
it.
>> Does anyone have any diagrams on this unit? I have already tried to
>> contact Sanden but they never return my calls.
>
>
> That looks a lot like it. I'd say take this to your local friendly AC
> shop and ask them for some advice. Paying them for the advice is also
> a good idea :-)
>
> Seriously, you need lines and hoses to connect that, your evaporator,
> condenser, and dryer. Having it powered by 300 volts is most of the
> battle.
>
> Chris
>
>
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by
MailScanner, and is believed to be clean.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm trying to configure my DC-DC too. I have a very non-EE dumb question to add
to this. I didn't
have to forget any EE courses, none were offered for my computer science
degree. Warning; newbie
questions below!
For the purposes of this question lets say I have a 240VDC pack. I have a 12v
switching power
supply I want to use for my dc-dc, as has been recommended in the past, and it
accepts 120/240 VAC
input. But isn't 240VAC just two legs of 120VAC? So how do you hook this up?
What am I missing? Or
is this just not possible without splitting the pack?
Also, I know there is a conversion factor between AC and DC (1.4?), so what the
highest voltage DC
pack I could connect as input to a 240VAC device?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- John Norton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Mon, 8 May 2006 5:42, Cor van de Water wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > Yes, that one should work IF you can crank the output
> > voltage up to your battery voltage (13.8 .. 14.5V)
> >
>
> It is adjustable, so far so good.
>
> > Doubling may work, depending how close they are in output
> > voltage and current sharing capabilities.
> >
>
> Here is where we learn that at least one of the two required semesters
> of EE for this mechanical engineer was wasted.
>
> Say you had 2 identical converters, adjusted to the same output voltage,
> could you take the outputs in parallel and get 60A available for 12v
> power?
>
> >
> > And yes - you better wire all loads across the entire pack
> > or you will create unbalances in the pack.
>
> I have looked at a diagram someone had posted of their EV wiring, and it
> just showed the DC-DC converter wired across the pack voltage on the
> same path as the controller, but (back to that wasted semester) is that
> okay with 100's of amps flowing through the wire? Is there a shunt or
> something else in the configuration?
>
>
> John F. Norton
> via T-Mobile Sidekick
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm not sure if this is the same video that Ryan Stotts linked to from
bittorrent a while back, but here's a excerpt from Fifth Gear that
shows off the Fetish.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3627302315905965160&q=electric+car
Lots of sexy driving shots, and ethusiam for the torque, but no
technical discussion or views of the guts.
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
personally, i think it's fine to ask questions.
but i think the ToS should be revised to prohibit writing in all lower case
letters. i find it to be precious and annoying. but that's just me.
Ryan Bohm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi everyone,
I try to avoid controversy, but feel like someone should say something
about this.
In my opinion, asking questions is *vitally* important to the vitality
of the EVDL. If the question might seem somewhat off topic from a
purist EV point of view, better to ask anyways. Let the list
administrators extinguish anything too OT.
I think that several of the recent questions that have been attacked
(e.g. EMBs) were very good questions and certainly relevant to EVS -
things I've pondered in the past. It's very easy to hit the delete
button if a topic doesn't interest you. I don't understand why some
people have to be so quick to call someone off topic. It's like a bunch
of kid waiting to go tattle to mommy.
For those that have felt offended and "won't be posting here for a long
time", don't let those really deserving the weenie-awards get their way
that easy :) Keep posting!
-Ryan
---------------------------------
Love cheap thrills? Enjoy PC-to-Phone calls to 30+ countries for just 2¢/min
with Yahoo! Messenger with Voice.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
94 of those 3.7v batteries is nearly 348 volts(347.8). 1.6oz each is 150.4oz
which equates to 9.4lbs for the 94 batteries. About $535 for that
pack.(Actually, for $514.09, I can buy 101 of those batteries and have
some spares..)
Now here is where my math conversion skills lack.
Nominal: 2200 mAh
Minimum: 2150 mAh
How does that pack compare to a pack of 29 Orbitals which are 50 Amp Hours each?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
How many of these 348v lithium packs will I need to parallel to equal
that Orbital pack in Amp Hours? Or about how many will I need to even
begin to approach having the range of a small lead pack? Will Rich's
charger be able to deal with this pack? What about the BMS situation?
Anything in the works?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Impressive.
What type of connector did you replace it with?
Cory Cross
Mark Hastings wrote:
I start pulling out the wires between the onboard charger and the inlet in the
gas cap giving up on the idea that I'd find the fault after months of trying on
and off. Hiding in a section of frame tunnel I find a seriously melted anderson
where you can't see it but where water and road grime can get to it and sit. I
took a few pictures here of the connector after I cleaned up and the goo.
http://tinyurl.com/etkfc
At first I thought I saw it before when I looked it over but I have no record
of it and don't see how I would have seen it buried in there. I replaced it
with some weatherproof permanent connectors between just the pairs of wires I
still need since there is no need for a disconnect of anykind at that point or
for that third set of wires to be connected anymore since I don't have an
offboard charger.
--- End Message ---
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* This post contains a forbidden message format *
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--- Begin Message ---
Ryan,
1 mAH = 1 milliamphour OR
one thousandanth of an amp hour.
This is just like a millimeter is one thousandth of a meter.
Therefore, you take Nominal: 2200 mAh and divide by 1000
and you get 2.2 Ah. This pales in comparison to the 50 AH
that you get with the Orbitals...It would take a very good
BMS and about 23 parallel strings of the lions
(have to watch the balancing and may have to include fuses
for thermal run-away problems) to match the storage potential
or the orbitals.
Hope that helps!
JH
Ryan Stotts wrote:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
94 of those 3.7v batteries is nearly 348 volts(347.8). 1.6oz each is
150.4oz
which equates to 9.4lbs for the 94 batteries. About $535 for that
pack.(Actually, for $514.09, I can buy 101 of those batteries and have
some spares..)
Now here is where my math conversion skills lack.
Nominal: 2200 mAh
Minimum: 2150 mAh
How does that pack compare to a pack of 29 Orbitals which are 50 Amp
Hours each?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
How many of these 348v lithium packs will I need to parallel to equal
that Orbital pack in Amp Hours? Or about how many will I need to even
begin to approach having the range of a small lead pack? Will Rich's
charger be able to deal with this pack? What about the BMS situation?
Anything in the works?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
94 * 3.7v * 2.2AH = 765wh
29 * 12v * 50AH = 17.4 kwh
17.4 / .765 = 22.75 Packs
22.75 * 514.09 = $11,695.55 and 213.85 lbs
Now, to hook them all up and charge them.
What about max current through the individual cells?
--- Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
>
>
> 94 of those 3.7v batteries is nearly 348 volts(347.8).
> 1.6oz each is 150.4oz
> which equates to 9.4lbs for the 94 batteries. About $535
> for that
> pack.(Actually, for $514.09, I can buy 101 of those
> batteries and have
> some spares..)
>
> Now here is where my math conversion skills lack.
>
> Nominal: 2200 mAh
> Minimum: 2150 mAh
>
> How does that pack compare to a pack of 29 Orbitals which
> are 50 Amp Hours each?
>
>
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
>
> How many of these 348v lithium packs will I need to
> parallel to equal
> that Orbital pack in Amp Hours? Or about how many will I
> need to even
> begin to approach having the range of a small lead pack?
> Will Rich's
> charger be able to deal with this pack? What about the
> BMS situation?
> Anything in the works?
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
23.
WIth the oribtals you have a 348v 50Ah pack. With the lithiums you
have 348v 2.2Ah pack. Division gives us 23. You're looking at ~2200
of those little lions.
On 5/8/06, Ryan Stotts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
94 of those 3.7v batteries is nearly 348 volts(347.8). 1.6oz each is 150.4oz
which equates to 9.4lbs for the 94 batteries. About $535 for that
pack.(Actually, for $514.09, I can buy 101 of those batteries and have
some spares..)
Now here is where my math conversion skills lack.
Nominal: 2200 mAh
Minimum: 2150 mAh
How does that pack compare to a pack of 29 Orbitals which are 50 Amp Hours each?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
How many of these 348v lithium packs will I need to parallel to equal
that Orbital pack in Amp Hours? Or about how many will I need to even
begin to approach having the range of a small lead pack? Will Rich's
charger be able to deal with this pack? What about the BMS situation?
Anything in the works?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #3: Tour De Sol To Showcase Over 65 "Green" Cars At Saratoga Spring
Auto Show
Today's Tour de Sol Press Release:
Tour De Sol To Showcase Over 65 "Green" Cars
At Saratoga Spring Auto Show
Winners -
Driving Toward Zero Carbon Emissions -
To Be Announced May 14
GREENFIELD MA May 8, 2006
Expectations are high as the Tour de Sol, America's number one green car show
and competition "driving toward zero carbon emissions" kicks off this week at
the Saratoga Spa State Park and Saratoga Automobile Museum in Saratoga Springs,
NY. Over 65 teams will compete for bragging rights and $10,000 in cash prizes
for the most fuel-efficient vehicles that aim to reduce oil use and climate
change emissions to zero.
Now in its 18th year, the Tour de Sol is a laboratory of automotive innovation
- and the largest green car show in the USA. After four days of competitions,
the general public is invited to visit with the teams and auto companies
offering advanced vehicles at the Tour de Sol exhibit at the Saratoga
Automobile Museum's Spring Auto Show, on Saturday, May 13, 10:00 a.m.-4:00 p.m.
In addition to vehicles in the competition, Toyota will display its three
hybrids, including its new Camry hybrid, to be released May 15, and Lexus
GS450h to be released next month. Honda will display its compressed natural
gas vehicle, "the cleanest car on earth." Sponsors will showcase their
products, clean vehicle programs, Ford's hybrid Escape, and Honda's prototype
hydrogen-powered vehicle.
"For auto enthusiasts this is a tremendously exciting time - and it is
tremendously exciting for us to be able to celebrate and showcase the progress
made toward more environmentally-friendly vehicles," says Nancy Hazard of the
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA), organizer of the Tour de Sol.
"But we must do much more - we must strive to create new ways of getting around
that do not emit carbon dioxide, the major source of climate change, and that
do not depend on oil. We can do it. We can do it with energy efficiency and
switching to clean domestically-produced energy and fuels."
"NYSERDA is pleased to bring the Tour de Sol to New York State so that
together, we can showcase innovative technologies that will help lesson our
dependence on foreign energy sources in the transportation sector," says Peter
R. Smith, President and CEO of the New York State Energy Research and
Development Authority, premier sponsor of the event.
The Tour de Sol challenges auto companies, the general public, students, and
entrepreneurs, to showcase new ideas and products and to compete in one of
three competitions. The Monte Carlo-style Rally and Fuel-Efficiency
Competition challenges the general public to demonstrate how efficiently they
can drive their hybrid or biofuel vehicles, or modifications of these vehicles.
The Tour de Sol Championship challenges entrants to build one-of-a-kind,
highway-worthy vehicles that aim to reduce oil use and climate change emissions
to zero. And the Around Town Vehicle Competition challenges entrants to design
motorized vehicles that could replace the conventional car in our communities
with zero carbon emission vehicles.
"We expect the modified hybrids to provide spectacular performance," says Jim
Dunn, CEO of the Center for Technology Commercialization and Monte Carlo-style
Rally sponsor. "We anticipate that the hybrids that have been modified to be
'plug-in' hybrids, and those with turbo-charged engines will get over 40%
better gas mileage than the EPA ratings, with one of them achieving over 100
mpg and capturing the Grand Champion award. We also expect the biofueled
vehicles to demonstrate their ability to reduce climate change emissions by
over 70%."
Several corporate entries in the Monte Carlo-style Rally hope to gain
visibility for their products. Hymotion, of Concord, Ontario in Canada offers
a kit that converts a conventional hybrid vehicle to a "plug-in" hybrid that
uses more electricity and less gasoline. Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems
offers a kit that converts a conventional diesel vehicle to operate on used
vegetable oil. Eastern Biofuels and Vogelbilt aim to demonstrate that
biodiesel can be used in a conventional diesel vehicle with no modifications,
and reduce oil dependence and climate change emissions dramatically. Over 30
teams will participate in the Monte Carlo-style competition this year.
"The American Lung Association has named transportation emissions the #1 health
threat, and transportation emits one third of all the climate change
emissions," says Dr. Robert Wills, technical director of the Tour de Sol
Championship. "The experimental vehicles brought to the Tour de Sol by student
and independent teams address this issue, and have led the way for the past 17
years."
Sixteen teams, including from as far away as India, have gathered to showcase a
dizzying array of ideas and technologies in the Tour de Sol Championship. Some
teams have chosen to build battery-electric vehicles, or hydrogen-powered
vehicles, with the vision that these vehicles can be powered by zero-carbon
electricity or hydrogen produced locally by wind and solar - and some of them
even have solar panels integrated into their vehicles. Others have chosen to
switch the drive train to a more efficient hybrid system, and still others have
chosen to switch to a biofuel - biodiesel or biomethane - that will
dramatically reduce health-threatening particulate emissions and climate change
emissions. One thing, however, that the entries have in common, is their
effort to increase the fuel efficiency of their vehicles so as to reduce fuel
use. Many of the vehicles are one-of-a-kind purpose-built vehicles, designed
to reduce energy use by being lighter and more aerodynamic. Teams will receive
trophies and $5,000 in prize money.
The newest competition at the Tour de Sol, the Around Town Vehicle Competition,
has attracted thirteen entries. Optibike and RunAbout Cycles hope to
demonstrate the range capabilities of their high-performance electric bikes and
trikes, while student and independent teams aim to demonstrate new ways of
getting around local communities with zero emission vehicles.
"Building an electric bike or a neighborhood electric vehicle (NEV) is a
tremendous learning opportunity," says Paul O'Brien of the Southern Berkshire
Regional School District, creator of the new NEV competition rules. "The
project involves research, problem solving, teamwork, computer and hands-on
experience, and creates awareness about our energy and environmental challenges
and possible solutions."
Premier sponsors of the 2006 Tour de Sol are the New York State Energy Research
and Development Authority and the Center for Technology Commercialization.
Additional key sponsors include the New York Power Authority, the Saratoga
Automobile Museum, Stewart's Shops, New York State Office of Parks, Recreation
and Historic Preservation, Eastern Biofuels, New York Department of
Environmental Conservation, Toyota, the UK Trade & Investment, Honda, Kurkoski
Solar Electric, Westboro Toyota, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, E-
The Environmental Magazine, EIN Publishing, and GreenBiz.com.
The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association, organizer of the Tour de Sol, is
the Northeast's leading organization of professionals and concerned citizens
working in sustainable energy, and whole systems thinking. NESEA facilitates
the widespread adoption and use of sustainable energy by providing support to
industry professionals and by educating and motivating consumers to learn
about, ask for and adopt sustainable-energy and green-building practices.
NESEA accomplishes this through conferences, K-12 educational resources, its
members and chapters, its Sustainable Yellow Pages, and public events.
Results will be announced to the news media on Sunday, May 14.
To find out more about the Tour de Sol, please visit
http://www.TourDeSol.org/
The 2006 Tour de Sol is Recommended for:
The general public
business and government leaders
manufacturers
students
entrepreneurs
hobbyists
hybrid and biofuel vehicle owners
anyone interested in learning more about advanced vehicles and
driving toward zero carbon emissions.
Organizer
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
http://NESEA.org
Premier Sponsors
New York State Energy Research and Development Authority
http://www.NYSERDA.org
Center for Technology Commercialization
http://www.CTC.org
Event-Site Hosts
Saratoga Spa State Park
http://www.SaratogaSpaStatePark.org
Saratoga Automobile Museum
http://www.SaratogaAutoMuseum.com
CONTACT:
Stef Komorowski (508) 698-6810 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Nancy Hazard (413) 774-6051 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 8 May 2006 17:01, Ryan Stotts wrote:
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
94 of those 3.7v batteries is nearly 348 volts(347.8). 1.6oz each is
150.4oz
which equates to 9.4lbs for the 94 batteries. About $535 for that
pack.(Actually, for $514.09, I can buy 101 of those batteries and have
some spares..)
Now here is where my math conversion skills lack.
Nominal: 2200 mAh
Minimum: 2150 mAh
How does that pack compare to a pack of 29 Orbitals which are 50 Amp
Hours each?
Volts per battery x # batteries x amp hours = watt hours
For the lion pack you describe:
3.7 x 94 x 2.15 = 747.77 watt hours
Orbitals:
29 x 12 x 50 = 17400 watt hours
17400/747 = 23.3
more math:
23 * $500 = $11500 + $46 per 10 cells for BMS ($10580)
29 * $140 = $4060
2300 * .045 kg = 103 kg ~ 230 lbs
29 * 41 lbs = 1160 lbs
This doesn't even address charging.
But you can see the promise of lion and lipo and the challenge. The
same power in 20% of the weight, but 5 times the cost.
When you see the 30kwhr numbers in the Ft Pierce rally posts, that's
what it takes to go 100 miles - you could get a 200 mi range EV with a
1000 lb pack - though that's also an $80k pack! I am sure that could be
done cheaper - not sure by how much - using the larger form factor
Kokams.
But the good news is that (apparently) those prices reflect a recent 50%
cut - a couple more rounds of that makes it priced like AGM.
John F. Norton
via T-Mobile Sidekick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
When you hook batteries together in series, their current stays the same.
So 94 2.2Ah batteries in series is 348V at 2.2Ah. To get 50 Ah you will
need 23 of these packs. This will cost you $11,681, a pretty decent price.
However, you will need to have a battery management system. If a battery is
overcharged it could cause a dangerous fire. Same could happen in a short
circuit situation.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Stotts
Sent: May 8, 2006 1:57 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Need help with my battery math (lead/lithium)
http://www.all-battery.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=471
94 of those 3.7v batteries is nearly 348 volts(347.8). 1.6oz each is
150.4oz which equates to 9.4lbs for the 94 batteries. About $535 for that
pack.(Actually, for $514.09, I can buy 101 of those batteries and have some
spares..)
Now here is where my math conversion skills lack.
Nominal: 2200 mAh
Minimum: 2150 mAh
How does that pack compare to a pack of 29 Orbitals which are 50 Amp Hours
each?
http://www.exideworld.com/products/automotive/orbital_xcd_specs.html
How many of these 348v lithium packs will I need to parallel to equal that
Orbital pack in Amp Hours? Or about how many will I need to even begin to
approach having the range of a small lead pack? Will Rich's charger be able
to deal with this pack? What about the BMS situation?
Anything in the works?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello all,
I would like to search and/or browse the archives, but I
cannot seem to find a way to do it other than getting some
random hits from google. The crest.org site does not seem
to work and most of the links are broken in the welcome
e-mail I received when I signed up to the list.
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Chet Fields
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I assume that the NEDRA Nationals will once again be held in Oregon this
year...
Has this been agreed upon yet? If so, is there a known date yet?
jorg
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hopefully you get another price break when
you order more than 1000 batteries. Don't forget
that someone has to wire them all together also...
Let us know what you do and how much it costs as
some of us might want to follow in your footsteps...
Also, you might want to try searching for higher
power lion batteries so you wouldn't need so many
parallel strings to reach your AH capacity...
You're looking at ~2200 of those little lions.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First up, the "Big Joe" batteries, if I recall, were
Iron Chloride, not lead... Perhaps Yale uses
different chemistry, though.
The main issue is that CA is a _huge_ trucking market,
and has the worst air quality. The grocery store I
worked for would never think of hauling the Big Joes
in the back of their trucks, b/c their weight would
pull down MPG. On the return trips, they have bales
of cardboard, empty pallets, and in some cases,
overstock or other. The stores just keep the pallet
movers in the back room for off-loading the truck when
it gets there. The point here, is "How many companies
are carrying their pallet-loader in the back of the
truck?" I'll grant that some extra ballast in the
truck would improve traction on the trip home...
The next issue, is why would they want an
additional electrical load on the
generator/alternator, if it meant increased emissions.
Calstart has regular posts on the hybrid and other
systems that Caterpillar and Cummins are working on to
improve mileage and decrease emissions.
Re-reading it, this looks like a slam on the idea,
but it's just one person's experience and thoughts.
Take it for what it's worth.
Sincerely,
--- Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I was talking to the folks delivering beer to a
> restaurant this am.
> Pallets of kegs plus pallets of cases.
>
> They were using a 24V hand pallet, very much like
> this one:
>
http://cgi.ebay.com/Yale-Self-Propelled-Pallet-Jack-6000-lb-Forklift_W0QQitemZ7616028341QQcategoryZ97185QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
>
> or tinyURL here:
> http://tinyurl.com/p4z38
>
> The operators didn't know which size floodie they
> were using, but the
> choices per the nameplate said options are 300lb or
> 500lb batt.
> (I think it was)
>
> Point is, they rely on a dial of "idiot lights" to
> gauge remaining
> charge, and of course it depends on how much they
> use it in the day as
> to the state of charge at the end of the day...
>
> Commonly the battery (per lights) is 1/2 empty by
> the end of the day,
> then is plugged in back at the warehouse at night.
>
> So here's the plan:
>
> Develop and market a charger that runs off the
> diseasal truck engine,
> and plug the battery into the truck between stops?
> The hand pallet
> stays at the back of the cargo box of the truck
> while on the road, so
> this would be a rather long cable run perhaps, but
> the real question
> might be, given the cost to install, how much would
> such a setup extend
> the life of the pallet truck battery, if it can be
> plugged in in the
> way, between stops, to reduce the average daily
> discharge to perhaps
> 80% rather than 50%?
>
> If the idea makes for a practical product, then I
> hope some of the
> forklift-friendly EV folk here can make some money
> off the idea.
>
> Thanks all
> Lock
> Toronto
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
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>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
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____
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=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
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