EV Digest 5468
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Minimum Power
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
3) Re: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: RC Battery chargers instead of regulators?
by "David (Battery Boy) Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Sources of Energy
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Off Topic? (RE: Sources of Energy)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: formula???
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Dana Havranek)
12) Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle, hijacked to campus recruiting
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
17) formula???
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by Ray Wong <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) TdS Report #5: Photos - First Photographs
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
21) Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
Cor van de Water wrote:
At 36 or even 48V you will not be able to "snap" a transmission
unless it is not an adequate one to begin with.
"Stefan T. Peters" wrote:
That's reassuring, thanks! It's actually a compact truck tranny,
so its tough enough. I suppose that means I should just stick with
four 12V marine or floorsweeper batts to help limit the current...
That's not quite the whole story, Stefan.
Suppose you have a contactor controller; they do not limit the current.
You "floor it" from a dead stop, and the batteries will be your weak
link that sets the current. Freshly charged flooded batteries can easily
deliver 500-1000 amps (at least for a couple seconds before something
breaks).
A series DC motor converts current into torque. At normal currents, the
torque goes up as the SQUARE of the current, so it gets big fast! At
over nameplate current, the torque flattens out but is still more than
doubling as curretn doubles. So when you hit that motor with 500-1000
amps, you are going to get a HUGE amount of torque -- many times more
than any comparable ICE!
A series motor switched straight to the batteries WILL NOT BE STOPPED!
That's why they use them for drag racing. All that torque is going to
burn rubber, blow fuses, melt battery interconnects, break
transmissions... SOMETHING is going to give!
So, you do something to prevent this mayhem:
- Use an electronic PWM controller that limits current (and thus
torque)
- Use skinny high-pressure tires that will spin before something breaks
- Use a weak clutch that will slip
- Use undersized wire to add some resistance to limit the current
- Put some kind of interlock in your contactor controller to prevent
going to full throttle from a dead stop
- Or just make everything strong enough, and go racing!
Hmmm... this is for a "current draw" test that was suggested; using a
contactor and 4 batts to see what the current draw is under basic
conditions. This car *was* setup for racing by the PO, so the tires are
definitely not skinny. There is no clutch at the moment, just the old
clutch plate (has the four springs on it) securely mounted to a
press-fit keyed 5" steel double pulley that came with the motor (similar
to Svein Medhus' setup). Don't fret, it's just a temporary setup for
testing.
Undersized wire sounds like a simple setup to limit current. This way I
could test it at various current levels and see what the car does. Given
that the battery wiring will be 0 guage, should I use perhaps 6 guage
wire for the "resistor" wiring to the motor? Maybe loosely coil a length
around a short section of large diameter pipe, so I could vary the
current by simply varying the total length?
~ Peanut Gallery ~
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 5/10/06 12:30:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Date: 5/10/06 12:30:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Dymaxion)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
<http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>
Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
It'll be exciting to hear what the ETs will be. >>
The hp calcuater on Speedworlds website (the same one That put my Current
Eliminator at 8.801) says that Bills bike will run 7.70 at 175mph in the qt.mi.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Safe Bet we don't get rated cycle life.
I never saw more than 250 volts on the pack.
Ryan later got a LOT more into the pack. It looks like it was in the low
power..bring it up mode, and that covers a LOT of the cycle. Unknown to me.
I woulda known if I had any meters on the pack while we were driving...
Nice curve... and the pulse end of charge will make tight data a wish..
We had one of those 120 Vac plug through AC watt meters... and we saw grid
amps volts and watt hours.
Clearly we had it hot.... And tried like heck to cool it.
I have this nasty thing that 1000 watts is... like childs play..... and 100
watts of heat, Well a cold hand can absorb that...
I guess I have been jaded a bit....We were joking about using the idle
airflow from the PFC30 to cool your charger at full power.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:31 PM
Subject: RE: Plug-In Hybrid forum this Saturday in PT
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > could please explain what setup points you
> > used to charge this string of AGMs?
> >
> > My hunch is you were being very gental with the
> > batteries.. and set a very low peak charged voltage
> > and current, JUST so the pack could live a reasonable
> > life without Reg.
>
> Actually, you'd probably be shocked at the voltage I allow ;^>
>
> The algorithm will trickle an over-discharged pack up to 2.0V/cell at
> 2A, then it will run at rated output current until the pack reaches
> 2.43V/cell.
>
> At this point it begins pulsing the battery at 3A, watching the voltage
> and the duration of the pulses. This phase continues until it takes
> less than 2s @ 3A to bring the pack to 2.43V/cell. There is a safety
> timer that limits the maximum pulse duration in this phase that may need
> tweaking, as it may be set a bit too conservatively for Ryan's "green"
> pack.
>
> The finish phase pulses the pack 5s at 1A, 5s off until a set percentage
> of the Ah returned in the prior phases has been returned. This
> percentage may benefit from tweaking to increase the % overcharge as the
> present value is set conservatively.
>
> > On The DQ.. I have no idea what curves you have and what was
> > intended. I would like to know and get as much "in the
> > trenches" data back to you as I can. That's what I do. Good,
> > Bad or other wise....
>
> I'll share what information I can, and look forward to whatever data you
> can provide. I'll caution you right now that due to the nature of this
> pulsed algorithm it is fairly challenging to collect accurate data.
>
> All I ask is that you sanity check your data before broadcasting it all
> over the 'net. It does neither of us any good when you post something
> absurd like that the charger ran for 4hrs consuming ~1100W from the AC
> line, but returned less than 500Wh to the pack: the charger is roughly
> 90% efficient, so it delivered about 4kw of DC *somewhere*, or it didn't
> run for 4hrs or didn't run at 1100W input.
>
> Sanity checking some of your other data points:
>
> 800W input corresponds to about 720W out, or 3A @ 240V; this is a bit
> low; if the pack were less than 240V, the charger runs at 2A which
> should correspond to a maximum of about 550W input. Above 240V, it runs
> at 3.6A, which implies a minimum input power of about 960W. Running in
> between suggests it might have reduced its output current to avoid
> overheating, or that the power figures are ballparks. If the charger
> had reduced its output to avoid overheating, the LED on the ammeter
> bargraph would have been flashing instead of being lit steadily (and, of
> course, the ammeter would have been indicating less than full output).
>
> 1100W input correponds to about 1000W out. At 3.6A, this means the pack
> voltage would have to have been about 278V (2.31V/cell), which is in
> direct opposition to your assertion that the charger couldn't take the
> pack over 240-250V.
>
> > So.. Roger.. any bets on how many cycles Ryan's AGM pack will live
> > through??
>
> Nope. Too many factors at play here, including how badly the pack has
> been/will be overdischarged, how deeply it will be cycled, etc.
> Probably realistic not to expect more than the manufacturer's rated life
> for 100%DOD cycles.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Roger.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul and All,
Although I'm frantically packing to leave for the NEDRA gig in Illinois, in
order to be a crew member with the KillaCycle:
http://www.KillaCycle.com
I wanted to mention that when I decided to go with modular chargers in the
RX-7 I bought a Deltran "Battery Tender" to play with. In conversations
with a famous EV'er on the list way back than, he was concerned about the
algorithm as the batteries age, as in lots of gassing and thermal runaway,
which I didn't realize initially! My test unit would bulk charge until
something like 14.8 volts, and then hold that voltage for eight hours, as I
recall. I used that charger recently to top off an old UPS style 7Ahr AGM
on my car hauler and the battery was gassing vigorously in no time at all.
Also, my Deltran puts out some serious RF and blanks out my shop FM
receiver (can't listen to that tree hugging community radio station in the
Peoples Republic of Boulder!). I really wanted to buy the "Made in USA"
Deltran, but as I've posted before, I went with the pulsing blinkety blink
Soneils.
BB
>From: "Paul G." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Date: Tue, 9 May 2006 09:47:31 -0700
>
>Dennis Berube posted about his success with the charger in the second
>link below (Deltran.) I purchased one of the 10 bank units from Battery
>Mart for $480. It certainly put my 10 new Optimas in line quickly. I
>figure it will be a handy way to finish charge safely.
>
>Paul "neon" G.
>
>On May 8, 2006, at 7:26 PM, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
>
>> People posted some links.
>> I'm not sure how we know if something is reliable, but...
>> on Friday, I stopped at West Marine and got a charger.
>> They had a few choices, I grabbbed a
>> "10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] / (5 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *2)" charger.
>> So this means for my special case, trying to rehabilitate
>> (to some degree) 22 batteries, I can charge 2 batteries
>> at a time, slowly....I already did 6.
>>
>>> http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewPrd.asp?
>>> idcategory=212&id
>>> product=22358
>>
>>> http://www.batterymart.com/pdf_files/deltran_shop_charger.pdf
>>>
>>> http://www.automotivepartsnetwork.com/store/pc/viewCat_P.asp?
>>> idCategory=211
>>>
>>> http://www.ineedparts.com/store/pc/viewCat_P.asp?idCategory=222
>>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 5/10/06, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Maybe you should lable the thread with .."Check this funny idea out"... then
it warns us that you also think its entertainment and don't think you will
actually be driving one soon.
Well, I did ask the list to debunk it. Clearly I was looking for a
discussion on what was wrong with the principle. I did forget about
the [OT] label and will be more careful in the future.
I was wondering if perhaps we should start a [Hybrid] label as well?
The Gun Engine was getting to take up too much of the bandwidth.
I knew someone would bring up bandwidth again. I do want to point out
that the entire discussion of engine takes less than a few kilobytes.
We are talking about less than one second of download time, even on
the slowest of connections. Most of the bandwidth was taken by people
arguing about "over-unity" and "zero-point-energy" and other
non-squiturs to the discussion about the engine.
If bandwidth is <i>really</i> the concern then maybe the best strategy
is to ignore the wacko ideas and let them die.
I swear, it's going to be 2010 soon and we're still going to have
people complaining about a 10KB thread that they aren't interested in
using up all the bandwidth.
I will step in if the thread gets out of line
With respect for what you've done for the field, Rich, I know you are
an authority on EVs, but are you a list authority? (forgive me if you
are, and I am just not aware of it) Isn't it for the list admins to
decide when stepping in is necessary?
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I had no idea this was happening, awesome! I can't wait to see how they perform.
-Mike
On 5/10/06, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Message 4
From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT)
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rich Rudman wrote:
> Safe Bet we don't get rated cycle life.
Yep. But then this is an R&D project.
> It looks like it was in the low power..bring it up mode,
> and that covers a LOT of the cycle. Unknown to me.
I can't say it couldn't happen, but I've never seen it take more than a
few tens of minutes to bring a battery back up to the 2.0V/cell level so
that main charge could take off (and I have occasionally discharged
packs down to nothing).
So far it sounds to me as if the charger was dutifully doing what it
should, but you guys had sucked more kWh from that pack than you
thought, and when you put it back in at ~1kW, well, its going to take
several hours.
> Nice curve... and the pulse end of charge will make tight
> data a wish..
Tell me about it! ;^>
> Clearly we had it hot.... And tried like heck to cool it.
It sounds like you had no problem cooling it adequately, though I'd like
to know what the status and ammeter LEDs were indicating to confirm that
the cooling actually made any difference to its output.
> I have this nasty thing that 1000 watts is... like childs
> play.....
That's understandable; we play in different leagues in this regard.
> I guess I have been jaded a bit....
I have the distinct impression that the biggest problem you encountered
is that a 1kW charger is just too far from what you've gotten used to.
Patience grasshopper, patience... ;^>
> We were joking about using the idle
> airflow from the PFC30 to cool your charger at full power.
No joke, this should work fine, though I'd rather that the input of the
PFC30 is disconnected from the AGM pack while it is charging, just to
avoid any possibility of some weird interaction with the pulse logic.
It takes *very* little air movement around our heatsinks to allow the
unit to run at full output. So little in fact that we have to take
special measures when we do thermal runs in our environmental chambers
because the little fan that stirs the air in the chamber causes enough
additional cooling to skew the results.
At the other end of the spectrum, I've also run our chargers wrapped in
cloths such that the heatsinks are completely ineffective, and have had
them back off to about 1/2 current and hold that indefinitely.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
We haven't turned the bike all the way up to see if we can actually
pull 350 HP. On the bench, I managed to get the cells to give this
sort of performance, but we shall see how well they do in a large
pack on the track. We are (always) hoping for a record. We will be
happy if the bike simply runs well and nothing breaks.
Bill Dube'
At 02:18 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote:
In a message dated 5/10/06 12:30:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Date: 5/10/06 12:30:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Dymaxion)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
<http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>
Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
It'll be exciting to hear what the ETs will be. >>
The hp calcuater on Speedworlds website (the same one That put my Current
Eliminator at 8.801) says that Bills bike will run 7.70 at 175mph in
the qt.mi.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike, I think when some refers about "bandwidth" they may not be referring
to line speed, but refering to having to filter through postings that are
not an EV topic. As you are aware, there are a lot of posts on this list,
and taking the time to filter through posts not realted to Evs just takes
more time.
In the gun engine example, the details of connecting an ICE to an EV for a
hybrid seems an a reasonable topic, or connecting a genset to an EV.
However talking about the merits of different ICE configurations is
definitely off topic. The gun engine thread was almost all about the
engine, and not much of anything to do with Evs. It could have been a
thread about rotary engines, steam engines, air compressor engines, etc.
These are better on another list.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Ellis
Sent: May 10, 2006 2:24 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Sources of Energy
On 5/10/06, Rich Rudman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Maybe you should lable the thread with .."Check this funny idea
> out"... then it warns us that you also think its entertainment and
> don't think you will actually be driving one soon.
Well, I did ask the list to debunk it. Clearly I was looking for a
discussion on what was wrong with the principle. I did forget about the [OT]
label and will be more careful in the future.
I was wondering if perhaps we should start a [Hybrid] label as well?
>The Gun Engine was getting to take up too much of the bandwidth.
I knew someone would bring up bandwidth again. I do want to point out that
the entire discussion of engine takes less than a few kilobytes.
We are talking about less than one second of download time, even on the
slowest of connections. Most of the bandwidth was taken by people arguing
about "over-unity" and "zero-point-energy" and other non-squiturs to the
discussion about the engine.
If bandwidth is <i>really</i> the concern then maybe the best strategy is to
ignore the wacko ideas and let them die.
I swear, it's going to be 2010 soon and we're still going to have people
complaining about a 10KB thread that they aren't interested in using up all
the bandwidth.
> I will step in if the thread gets out of line
With respect for what you've done for the field, Rich, I know you are an
authority on EVs, but are you a list authority? (forgive me if you are, and
I am just not aware of it) Isn't it for the list admins to decide when
stepping in is necessary?
-Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmm. A general rule of thumb is to consider 1/3 of
your EVehicle weight in batteries. Thus, a Civic that
weighs 2000 lbs. stripped, will be 3330 lbs. when
chock full o' lead.
Still, that's for 55 mph, and 40 mi. range, so you
could get away with a bit less.
Uve Rick has a page, if I recall correctly.
Was it Oates' page, or Otmar's that lets you plug in
various parameters to do range at various speeds,
RPMs, and voltages?
A web-search should get you to one of them, as I
haven't used one in ages, if ever. (Never had my gear
ratios, and at least one was not finished at the
time).
Best of hunting,
--- Ben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Are there formulas to calculate weight & power
> required if given desired
> MPH & distance. I would like to be about able to go
> 35 MPH for 20 miles.
>
> --
> "Women and cats will do as they please, and men and
> dogs should relax and get used to the idea." by
> Robert Heinlein
> Ben Bennett
> http://home.earthlink.net/~greyhawk200/
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike:
I also agree.
If you really need to weld a bracket on the case, you need to get some good
penetration. That usually means a big stick welder.
But there is a time to weld and a time not to weld.
This may be a time not to weld.
You may be better off rolling out a nice circular clamp to fit the motor and
weld the mounting supports to that.
If you don't have access to a roll, it's not particularly easy to form a
circular clamp out of steel flat stock. But you could have someone bend it up
for you or purchase a mount and modify it. I would still do those welds with a
good stick welder unless you have a commercial MIG welder in your garage.
That wire feed will come in handy for the bizilions of little brackets you'll
need to fabricate for your conversion.
Dana
-------------- Original message ----------------------
From: Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I think you hit the nail on the head. Often, welding with too little
> heat throughput causes more problems than it solves. It's better to
> heat it quickly and be done with it, and that takes a lot of power.
> I've noticed the same thing even with gas welding -- it's easy to
> undersize the tip.
>
>
>
> James Massey wrote:
> > At 12:10 AM 10/05/06 -0800, Mike wrote:
> >> <snip> My query is if its OK to weld on the motor
> >> housing without taking the guts out. I would be putting two 1-1/2" long
> >> vertical beads on each side of the motor. <snip>
> >
> > G'day Mike
> >
> > Question is, can your welder deliver lots of amps? The secret to this
> > type of welding is high-power "tacks" of weld - at least 250 to 350A,
> > in order to get plenty of penetration, but keep the weld duration
> > short - like half a second. probably more significant than overheating
> > the fields is the need to not deform the housing tube. Cool the
> > housing down between welds & you'll be fine.
> >
> > If your welder is too small, the first bit of welding is not
> > penetrating well. By the time your weld pool is formed you have put a
> > fair amount of total energy into the job, a lot more energy than the
> > short, high-power weld.
> >
> > If your welder is a little undersized, someone near you will likely
> > have a machine suitable, make sure they understand the reason for
> > welding like that. Beer is good currency for small jobs at most
> > welding shops.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > [Technik] James
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I took this approach to mount to the stock motor mounts in the 300zx
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31MidMotorBracketWJTop.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31MidMotorBracketWJBottom.jpg
I was worried about the threaded hole not being strong enough as this is
just water jet out of 3/4 aluminum at the local counter top guys place.
As you can see, it rotated up against the bolt during this EVent. but
held up ok. I had just bolted angle to it to mount it to the motor
mounts and figured I could just make 2 if I wanted it stronger.
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00022.jpg (Caution viewing this picture
may bring tears to eyes of EV'ers)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks all for the input. I've been admiring your design for some time now
Jeff. I suppose I'll start steering that way now.
Thanks
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:12 pm
Subject: Re: Welding on WarP 9 Motor Housing
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List <[email protected]>
> I took this approach to mount to the stock motor mounts in the 300zx
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31MidMotorBracketWJTop.jpg
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/Z31MidMotorBracketWJBottom.jpg
>
> I was worried about the threaded hole not being strong enough as
> this is
> just water jet out of 3/4 aluminum at the local counter top guys
> place.
> As you can see, it rotated up against the bolt during this EVent. but
> held up ok. I had just bolted angle to it to mount it to the motor
> mounts and figured I could just make 2 if I wanted it stronger.
> http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00022.jpg (Caution viewing this picture
> may bring tears to eyes of EV'ers)
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey, in that smoke shot I noticed a sign for my old alma mater, Denver Auto and
Diesel College. I
didn't realize they were still in business. Are they a sponsor at the track?
What a perfect place
to drum up recruits. If they're training the future mechanics of America, I
wonder how long it
will be before they start getting into training for hybrids and electric
components. Maybe you
Denverites could hook up with the school. Get 'em started early. I'm sure
there's potential for a
future electric drag racer or two in the group.
Dave Cover, DADC class of '79
--- "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> We haven't turned the bike all the way up to see if we can actually
> pull 350 HP. On the bench, I managed to get the cells to give this
> sort of performance, but we shall see how well they do in a large
> pack on the track. We are (always) hoping for a record. We will be
> happy if the bike simply runs well and nothing breaks.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 02:18 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote:
> >In a message dated 5/10/06 12:30:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
> >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
> >
> ><< Subj: Re: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
> > Date: 5/10/06 12:30:33 PM Pacific Daylight Time
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Dymaxion)
> > Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Reply-to: [email protected]
> > To: [email protected]
> >
> > <http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>
> >
> > Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
> > weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
> > power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
> > as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
> >
> > It'll be exciting to hear what the ETs will be. >>
> >The hp calcuater on Speedworlds website (the same one That put my Current
> >Eliminator at 8.801) says that Bills bike will run 7.70 at 175mph in
> >the qt.mi.
> >Dennis Berube
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> <http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>
>
> Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
> weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
> power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
> as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
>
>
Curious about the numbers: 340V is 80 charged cells, but that's
actually a 296V nominal pack, and while the Dewalt site had these
cells at 2.4Ahr, 9kWh equates to a 3.0Ahr cell. What are the true values?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Becareful with the volt calcs - these cells are either 3.3 or 3.2v nominal (I
forget which) rather than 3.7v nominal and are 2.2AH. 3.8v is the full charge
must not exceed voltage for these.
Quoting Death to All Spammers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > <http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html>
> >
> > Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
> > weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
> > power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
> > as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
> >
> >
>
> Curious about the numbers: 340V is 80 charged cells, but that's
> actually a 296V nominal pack, and while the Dewalt site had these
> cells at 2.4Ahr, 9kWh equates to a 3.0Ahr cell. What are the true values?
>
>
>
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--- Begin Message ---
There are lots of formulas but the simplist would be to look up your
type of car in the photo album to get an idea of the wh/mile
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/
Rick provides some formulas and calculators.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/8679/ev.html
Most conversions are 250-350wh/mile, but some of us don't do so well, my
4050lb 300zx is doing 460wh/mile(yikes!)
At 35 mph, wind resistnace is low and 250wh/mile should be easy to
achieve, but lots of stops in town kinda balances it out.
lets use 300wh/mile, assume lead acid and work from the avergage rate
you will pull from batteries to please mister pukert.
Then it is simple if I wanted to do 20 miles at 300wh/mile 20*300=6Kwh.
For Lead acid batteries...
we divide by .8 for max range to 20% SOC(state of charge) = 7.5kwh
and divide by .5 for avg range for maximum pack life = 12kwh
The rate:
35mph is .583 miles/min 20/.583 = 34min
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/battery.html
looking at T125's
we enter 235ah and 488 res and calculate peukeert of 1.191
enter .5 hr and you will get 259 amps and 129Ah
each battery is 6V, 6*129 or 774wh/battery 12000/774 is 15.5 batteries
or a 96V pack.
96V*259 = 25kw = 33HP = 976lbs of lead ;maybe 400*96 or 51 peak HP to
protect the batteries and because of the LV system.
I get 460wh/mile and I have 24 Excide orbitals with a pukert of 1.101
If use it up in .5 hours and I am limited to 71 amps (LOL)(but that is
average)
71A * 288V =20kwh = 27hp = 912lbs of lead ;
Close to same average HP, floodies would give me more range, but the
excides allow 1000*288 or 384 HP peaks, (if the rest of the system
will handle it). With the zilla turning all that higher voltage into
amps at the motor, I rarely see over 400 amps on the batteries, in
reallity I have 170V motor limit * 1000 amps controller limit for a
real limit of 226HP. That fits me better.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/lab/8679/battery.html
then there is the motor side of things
take that 170V 1000amps into the warp 9 and
.0085*1000^1.55 = 379Lb-ft of torque, tires are about a 1foot radius
and total gear ratio in second is about 7.46:1 for a launching torque
of 2827Lb. EV weights 4050 with my arase in the seat or .69G's with a
cold motor and controller. This is considered sporty, but don't bother
racing. I gotta work on that.
have fun with the math...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A123's website is sorely lacking in details. No specs at all on any cells,
at least not that I could find. Hard to tell what they're selling, if
anything. But taking that ET article on the new A123-powered version of
KillaCycle and combining that with some of the scant hints on A123's
website, one can sort of put the pieces of the puzzle together as follows:
It looks like A123's cells are probably 3.4V nominal with a capacity of
3.3Ah. It would seem that Dube has put 8 of these cells in parallel for
26.4Ah and then put 100 of those 3.4V, 26.4Ah blocks in series to make a
340V, 26.4Ah pack. A 1300A peak discharge current for the pack would be a
50C pulse rate. Just under 150 pounds for the pack gives a specific energy
of 132Wh/kg, which is pretty good for the pack (meaning of course that the
specific energy for the cell is even higher, given all the extra packaging
weight required to assemble a pack).
It would be interesting to know whose BMS Dube is using, or whether he
developed it himself, some details on that BMS and how he handles the
challenges of paralleling, especially when charging the pack, what charger
he is using and the charge profile, etc., etc. But I guess Dube is probably
on the road right now enroute to Joliet and thus can't fill us in on further
details.
It would also be interesting to know whether A123 has any plans to develop
higher capacity cells (greater than 3.3Ah) so that one doesn't have to
custom assemble thousands of cells to make a pack for a car. 800 cells is
bad enough for a motorcycle, but a car would require thousands of them, like
what AC Propulsion does with its packs of 6,800 Li-Co-O2 (volatile and
highly combustible) 18650 laptop cells that it custom assembles for
customers. I doubt A123 will be a serious player in any potential BEV
market until they figure out how to engineer and develop a 100-200Ah cell,
which is not an insignificant challenge.
Anyway, very interesting, especially about the progress that A123 has made
in addressing the vexing calendar-life/capacity-fade problem, which is the
dirty little secret and Achilles heel of lithium batteries, a very sensitive
issue that virtually no other lithium battery manufacturer is willing to
discuss in public or even acknowledge.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Message 4 From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT) Subject: A123 Systems sponsored
KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is part of an email I got from A123 on May 3, 2006 after requesting some
cells for my EZE Sport motorcycle. The 100C for 5 seconds must sure have
Bill's attention.
Hello,
This first cell that we are manufacturing is a cylindrical 26650 form factor
cell (26 mm diam, 65 mm long) which has a basic specification of 3.3V nominal
(charges to 3.6V max) and 2.3 Ah rated capacity. It weighs 70 grams. This cell
would have to be put in a series-parallel configuration with battery management
system (BMS) to achieve the required application specifications. This
technology is based on a Lithium Iron Phosphate chemistry which is inherently
safe and incapable of combusting. The technology is uniquely capable of
discharging up to 30C rates continuous and up to 100C rates on a pulse basis (5
seconds). We believe that this unique combination of attributes and
capabilities will be advantageous in your marketplace.
We are currently coming to market with our first product with Black & Decker.
When our first product is launched in the coming weeks (and in the public
domain), we anticipate disclosing detailed information regarding our cell
specifications on our website. In addition, we anticipate making cells
available to the public for sale through our website for development and
evaluation purposes. Please check back on our website in the coming weeks for
further information.
Again, thank you for your interest.
Kind Regards,
A123Systems, Inc.
Arsenal on the Charles
One Kingsbury Ave
Watertown, MA 02472
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Becareful with the volt calcs - these cells are either 3.3 or 3.2v nominal (I
forget which) rather than 3.7v nominal and are 2.2AH. 3.8v is the full charge
must not exceed voltage for these.
Quoting Death to All Spammers :
> >
> >
> > Wow, 350 hp on 150 lbs of batteries! Even taking into account the
> > weight of the electric motor and controller, that's about the same
> > power-to-weight ratio as a racing gasoline engine! 9 kWhrs is about
> > as much energy as a pack of 28 Orbitals holds!
> >
> >
>
> Curious about the numbers: 340V is 80 charged cells, but that's
> actually a 296V nominal pack, and while the Dewalt site had these
> cells at 2.4Ahr, 9kWh equates to a 3.0Ahr cell. What are the true values?
>
>
>
---------------------------------
Talk is cheap. Use Yahoo! Messenger to make PC-to-Phone calls. Great rates
starting at 1¢/min.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
TdS Report #5: Photos - First Photographs
Photographs from the Tour de Sol:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006/photos_001.html
First Photographs
Here are some early photographs of the entrants as they showed up for
technical testing on Wednesday, May 10th.
The Attack,
from West Philadelphia High School,
runs on biodiesel.
Originally conceived as a through-the-road parallel hybrid,
this year it is running strictly as an alternative fuel vehicle.
By next year they hope to complete the front-wheel electric drive.
Fledge,
from the Delhi College of Engineering in India.
A parallel hybrid conceived, researched, designed, and built by 7 friends at
Delhi College, with help from parents, technology and equipment companies,
and the Indian government.
The team members have already won the prize for the most disrupted biological
clocks.
eVermont,
from the eVermont projects,
is another take on the battery-electric vehicle.
This time a Zebra is married with Azure Dynamics (nee Solectria) a drive system
in a Toyota Echo.
Take a 1976 British Austin Mini Clubman,
drop in a Peugeot diesel engine,
plumb it for both biodiesel and vegetable oil operation
with components from Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems,
and you have something quite cute and unique.
The Lorax,
from
Methacton High School in Norristown Pennsylvania
returns,
with a keep-the-sun-off-me roof.
The Olympian returns,
this time with a combination of lead-acid and lithium ion batteries.
It is a joint project of Burlington County Institute of Technology and
Burlington County Community College.
Originally built for the American Solar Challenge,
this solar-electric vehicle makes its first appearance at the Tour.
(Don't worry. The wheels are around here someplace!)
The rEVolutionride van has been in daily service on North Haven Island off
the coast of Maine since 1972.
It also is a valuable teaching tool.
Yes, those are battery boxes under the bench seats.
The St Mark's EV Club built Woodstock
as a demonstration both of a battery-electric truck that had practical use in
and around campus,
but also as an example of using solar energy without owning solar panels.
They buy their electrons from certified "green" energy suppliers.
Take a stock Volkswagen Jetta TDI, run it on 100% biodiesel produced
on campus from
leftover vegetable oil from the St Mark's School's food service and you have
Moritz,
an environmental education tool and economical practical transportation.
Sunpacer is a perennial.
This entrant from
Cato-Meridian High School's Technology Club, Cato NY,
has shown slow and steady progress since 1992.
As the name suggests,
Viking32 has a long pedigree.
Western Washington University Hybrid Club's
entry runs on biomethane captured from landfills.
Methane is many times more damaging a greenhouse gas than carbon dioxide,
so this vehicle lowers greenhouse pollution as it drives.
Some of us think the Vogelbilt battery-electric motorcycle sounds the way all
motorcycles should sound. No roar; just a whisper.
But when Carl Vogel cannot ride his electric hog,
he hops into his
Ford F250 (also named Vogelbilt)
which has spent the past 3 years using nothing but
B100 biodiesel.
The Zodiac hails from
West Irondequoit High School in Rochester New York.
Another solar-electric vehicle with a long history at the Tour de Sol,
it also has a history of steady refinement.
- - - -
The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
- - - -
The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ray Wong got the specs right, so read his post.
Steve Ciciora designed the BMS system and Derek Barger helped to build it.
As i said earlier, we managed to get these big discharge numbers on
the bench, but we have yet to actually draw 1300 amps from the
assembled pack. In theory, we should be able to, but we have yet to
actually attempt it.
Bill Dube'
At 05:53 PM 5/10/2006, you wrote:
A123's website is sorely lacking in details. No specs at all on any cells,
at least not that I could find. Hard to tell what they're selling, if
anything. But taking that ET article on the new A123-powered version of
KillaCycle and combining that with some of the scant hints on A123's
website, one can sort of put the pieces of the puzzle together as follows:
It looks like A123's cells are probably 3.4V nominal with a capacity of
3.3Ah. It would seem that Dube has put 8 of these cells in parallel for
26.4Ah and then put 100 of those 3.4V, 26.4Ah blocks in series to make a
340V, 26.4Ah pack. A 1300A peak discharge current for the pack would be a
50C pulse rate. Just under 150 pounds for the pack gives a specific energy
of 132Wh/kg, which is pretty good for the pack (meaning of course that the
specific energy for the cell is even higher, given all the extra packaging
weight required to assemble a pack).
It would be interesting to know whose BMS Dube is using, or whether he
developed it himself, some details on that BMS and how he handles the
challenges of paralleling, especially when charging the pack, what charger
he is using and the charge profile, etc., etc. But I guess Dube is probably
on the road right now enroute to Joliet and thus can't fill us in on further
details.
It would also be interesting to know whether A123 has any plans to develop
higher capacity cells (greater than 3.3Ah) so that one doesn't have to
custom assemble thousands of cells to make a pack for a car. 800 cells is
bad enough for a motorcycle, but a car would require thousands of them, like
what AC Propulsion does with its packs of 6,800 Li-Co-O2 (volatile and
highly combustible) 18650 laptop cells that it custom assembles for
customers. I doubt A123 will be a serious player in any potential BEV
market until they figure out how to engineer and develop a 100-200Ah cell,
which is not an insignificant challenge.
Anyway, very interesting, especially about the progress that A123 has made
in addressing the vexing calendar-life/capacity-fade problem, which is the
dirty little secret and Achilles heel of lithium batteries, a very sensitive
issue that virtually no other lithium battery manufacturer is willing to
discuss in public or even acknowledge.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message ----- From: "Lawrence Rhodes"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" <[email protected]>; "Zappylist"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2006 2:20 PM
Subject: A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle
Message 4 From: "Remy Chevalier" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue May 9, 2006 6:33pm(PDT) Subject: A123 Systems sponsored
KillaCycle
Photos from the test session of the A123 Systems sponsored KillaCycle.
http://www.electrifyingtimes.com/a123/KillaCycle.html
Did I miss this? Looks good.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
