EV Digest 5482
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Rear Diff over heating
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Vectrix
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by David Murphy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: my own outlet
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: my own outlet
by "Rick Todd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Current Eliminator News
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: Vectrix
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: The ultimate oppertunity charge
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Mark Farver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Where=E2=80=99s_KillaCycle=3F?=
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
13) Re: my own outlet
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: my own outlet
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Cushman Escapades
by "Mark E. Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: my own outlet
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) RE: my own outlet
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: my own outlet
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: my own outlet
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Vectrix
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: my own outlet
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) TdS Report #38: Tour de Sol Winners Announced
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
26) Re: my own outlet
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) RE: my own outlet
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
You can hear if the brake shoes are dragging. Otherwise all you should
hear under there is the mesh of the gears.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Grigg. John" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I pulled off the Diff cover and drained the unit. The old oil had a bad
> smell to it and a gray color. I spun the wheels by hand and most of the
> friction seams to be coming from my new brake drum shoes. I didn't see
> any obvious damage so I replaced the cover and put in new Synthetic gear
> oil. I going to drive it around soon and check for more heating.
>
> I might still have a problem though; after spinning both wheels forward
> by hand, I get maybe 1.5 turns out of it before it stops. It is in
> neutral and I pushed hard as I could.
>
> Thanks for the help guys...
> John Grigg
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
About $6200usd. I like the specs. It would fit my commute lifestyle
very well.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
> Lawrence Rhodes
> Bassoon/Contrabassoon
> Reedmaker
> Book 4/5 doubler
> Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
> Vegetable Oil Car.
> 415-821-3519
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree that this price doesn't tell you much about the broader
market. However, I'd like to share my own experience trying to get
info on one of these when it was for sale.
I visited a Toyota dealer that was authorized to sell them. There
were two on the lot. I was allowed to look in the windows - but as
far a getting in and getting a test drive? I was told only one person
there was 'authorized' to speak with me and that person was
paged....and paged ...... and paged .... and paged. After an hour of
waiting around with no response from this individual I left my number
and went home. After three days no one had called, so I called.
Again, that person was not available and would get back to me. A few
days later the same.
You can't sell into the mass market with this kind of attitude and
follow through. My experience could be unique, I don't know. But if
it is not unique this type of situation would certainly contribute to
failure.
David
On May 15, 2006, at 4:40 AM, John Norton wrote:
On Sun, 14 May 2006 22:48, Death to All Spammers wrote:
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
"Death to all Spammers" (I cannot find you name anywhere on the
list), to
help out us "newbies", do you mind sharing with us your experience?
What is
it that you mean by the note?
Thanks
Don
The auto industry says there is no demand for EVs, but a used RAV4
sells for $20K over MSRP? Seems to disprove their statement...unless
someone bid this high from auction fever, or the collectors' value?
It tells you about the market for *1* of these things.
When offered for lease, Toyota found about 300 customers a year.
Even if they sold them all at 67k, there is no business case for
them at those volumes.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am putting a plug on my garage and it is about 5 feet off the ground
and has one of those wetherproof in use covers. I think putting it out
of reach is a little added safety, but locking it rasies a question.
Lack of in-sight disconnect. If for some reason the cord gets caught up
or starts to emit sparks, no-one, like fire dept can turn it off. In
my case I am not too worried, standing at the car you can see both the
plug and the main breaker panel. just run the other direction to kill
power. But for those people in apartments or where the main panel is not
"in sight" do we need an in-sight disconnect?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Since this is not considered a "service" you would not need an in sight
disconnecting means. Only requirement is ground fault protection on exterior
receptacles.
Hope this helps Jeff,
Rick
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jeff Shanab
Sent: Monday, May 15, 2006 9:41 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Subject: Re: my own outlet
I am putting a plug on my garage and it is about 5 feet off the ground
and has one of those wetherproof in use covers. I think putting it out
of reach is a little added safety, but locking it rasies a question.
Lack of in-sight disconnect. If for some reason the cord gets caught up
or starts to emit sparks, no-one, like fire dept can turn it off. In
my case I am not too worried, standing at the car you can see both the
plug and the main breaker panel. just run the other direction to kill
power. But for those people in apartments or where the main panel is not
"in sight" do we need an in-sight disconnect?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Another NHRA Summit race in the 2006 series completed at 12:30 am sun
morning.I went out in the second round breaking out by .019 with a .007
reaction
time.The CE is now getting more un predictable with 471 passes on the Hawkers
that
are on the car.I placed a call to Jesse James at Sunbelt battery this
morning to order another set.Sure wish I had hi power litho going in instead of
the
small hawkers.If the NHRA series were to end today I would be in 1st place.The
racer that has more overall points went out in the 3rd round.An EV has made
this NHRA series the closest in years. Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
30, 125 Volt, Nickel-Metal Hydride
Recharge Time 2 hours (80% charge)
Battery Discharge Cycles 1,700 (80% charge)
Estimated Battery Life 10 years or 50,000 miles / 80,000 km
Doesn't seem like large format to me. I have 6 batteries in my motorcycle &
the pack weighs 250 pounds.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Lawrence Rhodes" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:32 PM
Subject: Re: Vectrix
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
What I'd like to know is where did they get large-capacity NiMH cells
- I thought no-one was currently licensed to make them...or has that
changed?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It tells you about the market for *1* of these things.
When offered for lease, Toyota found about 300 customers a year.
Even if they sold them all at 67k, there is no business case for them at
those volumes.
Rumor has it the Jay Leno offered a very large sum for one EV1. (???????)
He was turned down and the car crushed. There was a secret list of
thousands for the EV1. The truth is they were too good. All that was done
on service was to rotate the tires and add washer fluid. You don't make
money doing that. It shows the true value of the American gas powered
vehicle. It is to make a money path for anyone involved in the servicing of
these vehicles. The only reason EV's work for the hobbiest is that by
turning a car electric we make them simple enough to service ourselves. No
oil changes, filters to worry about or smog tests. We take out the bigest
problem with the automobile. The internal combustion engine. Lawrence
Rhodes.....
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In fact we spent WAAAAaayy to much time giving the Omaha Nebraska Hooter
girls rides in WZ last night out in the parking lot. The pics came out
crappy due to my camera being set wrong, Tim not using his flash and Wayland
(the pro pic taker) not having any storage left. The stories will be told
in great detail when we have had more than 2 hours sleep 8^ ).
. They probably were getting hungry. John told me that
when they are done charging the Hooter Girls are going to come out and do
some photo ops with the car. John says he is also going to give them some
thrill rides but he failed to mention if that was with the car or not.
They
are on their way back to the left coast and home of the quickest EVs on
the
planet.
Roderick Wilde
Hmm. No pics from Wayland & user error from Husted. Looks like there's no
evidence to distroy. LR.......
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David Murphy wrote:
I agree that this price doesn't tell you much about the broader
market. However, I'd like to share my own experience trying to get
info on one of these when it was for sale.
...
You can't sell into the mass market with this kind of attitude and
follow through. My experience could be unique, I don't know.
There were plenty of people interested in EV1 that report similar
situations. Sales people who refused to show the cars, or aggressively
tried to steer people to other Saturn products or just general ignorance.
I strongly encourage everyone to read Clayton's Christianson's business
classic "The Innovator's Dilemma." In that book the author points out
that few businesses are successful in adopting what he terms
"disruptive" technologies. He cites cases like the excavator market
where none of the cable driven steamshovel companies succeeded in
switching to hydrualic actuators even though most had programs/products
and management interest in doing so. He points out that most of these
new technologies start out somehow inferior to the dominant technology
of the time (hydraulic excavators lacked the power to dig large holes,
and typically had buckets significantly smaller than cable driven
equipment.) In this situation employees automatically work to support
the current customers and products, and they will, without thinking,
sabotage the less profitable new technology. Over time the new
technology gradually grows, becomes profitable and moves into the
existing technology's market.
The author concludes that most companies will fail to convert to a new
technology unless they physically seperate the new tech from the old,
typically by forming a new division that is completely isolated from the
parent companies value system and customers. The new division will be
forced to find a new value system and customer base, and over time may
replace the parent companies business entirely.
The author actually devotes a chapter to EVs and point out that they
have some of the signs of being a "disruptive" technology and their
success or failure will largely depend on how car manufacturers choose
to build the market. As we all know the auto companies choose to do EVs
from within their existing organizations and becuase of that (according
to the author's theory) were destined to fail. Sales people steering
people to other cars, GM's public statements about the inability to
profit from the EV1 and the like are signs that this type of
subconscience sabotaging of the disruptive technology.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0066620694/
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 08:33:30AM -0700, David Murphy wrote:
> I agree that this price doesn't tell you much about the broader
> market. However, I'd like to share my own experience trying to get
> info on one of these when it was for sale.
Wow, this is eerily similar to the experience I had when trying to get a
RAV4 EV.
I was looking at one on the lot, and a sales man came over and told me the
gas version of the RAV was much better!
He then said that the RAV4 EV is not nearly as reliable as most Toyota
products, and because of this there is no extended warranty to be had.
I then jokingly asked if he does not make a commission on these cars, and he
told me that customers who are upset with the RAV4EV take it out on there
sales men.
I told him I was still interested, and asked if I could take a test drive.
I was never able to take a test drive, or even get started on the purchase
process.
Perhaps if I was more persistent, I would have gotten one? This was in early
2003, when the program was basically over.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dictated to Battery Boyâs wife via Battery Boyâs cell phone each day.
Sunday â May 14th
After a show and tell at PepBoys Saturday, Bill Dubé and Battery Boy went back
to the drag strip with the RV to camp. The KillaCycle was rudely awoken by the
noise of infernal combustion engines as the SCCA group started showing up at
6:30 in the a.m.!
After a scrumptious breakfast the KillaCycle was transported north where
Battery Boy rented a Penske truck. The KillaCycle was then loaded from its
racing trailer into the rental truck and put into cryogenic sleep with its
pillows, for a trip to Baltimore, Maryland to attend a battery show. The
KillaCycleâs body was placed in battery boyâs sleeping bag for safe keeping
since it was freshly painted before leaving Colorado. Battery Boy then stopped
to fill up the tires on the transport vehicle so they were as hard as teak wood
and when the hatch on the transport vehicle was opened a show and tell was
given to a couple SCCA racers who had read the article in the Chicago Herald
and knew all about the record setting Eelectric Drag Bike. After a grueling 330
miles of driving â 200 miles of which were in the pouring rain, the
KillaCycle went through the state of Indiana and ended up spending the night in
Marion, Ohio.
Monday â May 15th
The KillaCycle got a late start because Battery Boy overslept having spent the
last 4 nights in an RV with Bill Dubé. Battery Boy did take the time to make a
fresh rich cup of organic coffee after suffering with truck stop coffee the
prior day. At 11 a.m. (Rocky Mountain time) the KillaCycle transport vehicle
was seen passing through Cambridge, Ohio on Interstate 70, at a rate of 70mph,
5 miles over the posted speed limit, and 15 miles over the posted speed limit
for trucks over 4 tons, which KillaCycleâs transport vehicle is rated at.
to be continued...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick Todd wrote:
> Need I remind you that even a 20A breaker is enough to kill someone.
Rick, could you explain to me how a person would get a shock by sticking
a fork in an outlet to short "hot" to "neutral"? I agree that a lot of
current flows thru the fork for a few AC line cycles before the breaker
trips. But why would any current flow thru the person holding that fork?
To get a shock, the person a) needs to be grounded somehow, and b) the
fork needs to touch the "hot" terminal first. When that occurs, the
person does get a shock -- but the GFCI trips off in a couple AC line
cycles.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Rick Todd wrote:
> Need I remind you that even a 20A breaker is enough to kill
> someone. The let through current on a bolted fault before
> the actual trip, as you are saying will trip the breaker,
> however, it still will let through about 3 cycles of
> electricity that gets up in the range of 2,000-4,000 amps
> depending on the transformer feeding the service.
This may be absolutely true, but it is irrelevant to the specific
example cited, which is little Igor sticking a fork into the outlet and
connecting the hot and neutral together with the fork. Little Igor will
not feel a thing in this case because all of the current flows directly
between hot and neutral through the fork; none of it flows though the
child.
The relevant point here is that a working GFCI protection will protect
against a conductive path through little Igor from either hot OR netural
to ground, and an ordinary breaker will protect against a direct short
between hot and neutral. However, neither will protect against Igor
forming a conductive path between hot and neutral since the current can
easily be lethal without being great enough to trip a 15 or 20A breaker.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't want to buy one, but for fun I wanted to look at a Honda EV+
and a GM EV1.
The Honda folks were vague on the phone about when I could come in to
look at one -- apparently only one salesperson handled them. Finally
I got the green light to come in and look at one. The specialist told
me "Honda does not really want to sell these cars." He wouldn't let
me test drive one, although I got to look at and sit in one. I did
get to watch a promo video, though. Since I had not said much, as far
as the salesperson could tell I was ready to get one on the spot.
It was the total opposite at the Saturn dealer. I admitted right up
front that I was visiting from out-of-state and could never buy one,
but was a real fan and would die for the chance to drive one. The
saleslady graciously let me test drive, and answered a ton of
questions. I was impressed with the car's acceleration, and she said
"That's what we call the EV1 smile." I commented the EV1 seemed to
wag its tail back-and-forth slightly under hard acceleration. She
answered honestly that the cars did do that, and thought it might be
because the rear wheels were closer together than the front wheels.
I found it doubly ironic that the EV+ was a stodgy and slow vehicle,
and the EV1 was fast and dramatically styled. Was the EV+ really
getting that many joy riders you had to turn people down? If
anything, I'd think the EV1 would have had more problems with
joyriders (speed freaks, technogeeks, or tree huggers (all said
affectionately)).
--- Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 08:33:30AM -0700, David Murphy wrote:
> Wow, this is eerily similar to the experience I had when trying to
> get a RAV4 EV.
>
> I was looking at one on the lot, and a sales man came over and told
> me the gas version of the RAV was much better!
>
> He then said that the RAV4 EV is not nearly as reliable as most
> Toyota
> products, and because of this there is no extended warranty to be
> had.
>
> I then jokingly asked if he does not make a commission on these
> cars, and he
> told me that customers who are upset with the RAV4EV take it out on
> there sales men.
>
> I told him I was still interested, and asked if I could take a test
> drive.
>
> I was never able to take a test drive, or even get started on the
> purchase process.
>
> Perhaps if I was more persistent, I would have gotten one? This was
> in early 2003, when the program was basically over.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> Wow, this is eerily similar to the experience I had when trying to get a
> RAV4 EV.
Same here. I tried to buy/lease a GM EV1, Ford Ranger EV, and Toyota
RAV4-EV here in Minnesota. I was strongly discouraged, and when I
persisted, eventually got a firm "no". The Ford was the only one that
they offered even the slightest hope of ever being able to get, and in
the end, even it was unobtainable.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
I got my Cushman running, now with 3' x 6' solar panels on the roof (gives me
3 sun-miles a day). I saw some on www.northerntool.com 15W for $100 so I
bought 6 for a 72V system. I had a SepEx motor 6.7" 36V from Ebay (Schaef) AFC
knockoff but ended up changing the SepEx field ring to a series wound ring
since the SepEx control was $1500 and wasn't as tweakable as my own design. I
used a Lester charger with my uP for shut-off .01V per cell per hour, stop. It
now has 12ea US-145's and I have the P135/12 tires but was thinking of trying
tonight the harder trailer 90psi 8x12 tires which are the same size diameter
but about 3" wide instead of 4.5". I need to go about 30 miles to work and
last night in testing went 20 miles and measured 9kWh from the AC outlet or
.45kWh per mile. The battery useage would be about 10% better or 400Wh per
mile for a 2140 lb vehicle. It has a single front wheel and a mini red
fire-truck type rear with a solar rack flat roof. I'm driving my
goofy-mobile further each day and hopefully will make the 30 mile run with
skinnier tires tonight after changing the gears in the rear end from 10.25:1 to
6.25:1, now 3500rpm's at 30mph with a top speed of 45mph but drives somewhat
comfortable around 35mph but not into a corner or it falls right over.
Best Regards,
Mark
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 10:54:23AM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
<..snip..>
> ... which is little Igor sticking a fork into the outlet and
> connecting the hot and neutral together with the fork. Little Igor will
> not feel a thing in this case because all of the current flows directly
> between hot and neutral through the fork; none of it flows though the
> child.
Well, he may be burned, but will likely live.
The fork will experience severe resistive heating in this case, likely giving
Igor 1st or 2nd degree burns on his hand.
But he won't be fibrilated.
Also, if his other hand touches the grounded outlet box, or he has a hand on
the ground, the small amount of leakage current should also trip the GFCI
correct?
> The relevant point here is that a working GFCI protection will protect
> against a conductive path through little Igor from either hot OR netural
> to ground, and an ordinary breaker will protect against a direct short
> between hot and neutral. However, neither will protect against Igor
> forming a conductive path between hot and neutral since the current can
> easily be lethal without being great enough to trip a 15 or 20A breaker.
All 100% correct.
Thanks!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nick Austin wrote:
> Well, he may be burned, but will likely live.
>
> The fork will experience severe resistive heating in this
> case, likely giving Igor 1st or 2nd degree burns on his hand.
Have that few people on this list actually ever caused an accidental
short that resulted in opening an AC breaker? Surely more of us have
first hand experience with tripping breakers than that?
The heating will be so localised and short in duration that Igor's hand
won't be burned at all. The tip of the last fork tine to make contact
in the outlet may be vaporised, but the temperature of the fork anywhere
Igor can touch is unlikely to change perceptibly.
Anyone who has ever tripped the breaker on a 120V circuit by
accidentally shorting a pair of wires, knows that the breaker trips so
fast that the wires don't heat enough to melt their insulation; indeed,
they don't warm to the touch.
> Also, if his other hand touches the grounded outlet box, or
> he has a hand on the ground, the small amount of leakage
> current should also trip the GFCI correct?
Right. The most dangerous scenario is that Igor does not present any
leakage path to ground at all. In this case there is no imbalance to
trip the GFCI while the current through Igor is at a safe level.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Nick Austin wrote:
> > Would it trip quickly enough to save Igor? 240V at 50A can make
> > quite a jolt.
>
> Yes indeed! However, the current isn't flowing in Igor; it's flowing in
> the fork.
Right.
> The ends of the fork and the contacts in the receptacle will
> be burned, but essentially no current flows in Igor.
And if more then 5mA does flow through Igor, then the GFCI will trip.
> The even will happen so fast that the fork won't even get warm (except at
> the very tips that made contact).
I have a single anecdote that I'm not sure is representative or not.
A friend of mine was working on a contract job removing the interior of a
building. Part of his job was to remove the outlets and cap off the wires
that were in the wall.
He was supposed to check for voltage on each outlet before starting the
operation. After doing many of them, he started to get lazy since none of
them had any power. Then he got to a bladed 15-50. This outlet had
power, he should have checked this one! He unscrewed the four screws around
the edge of the outlet and stuck a pair of insulated needle nose pliers
between a hot and neutral. Wham! He indicates that he saw a flash, and all the
lights went out a split second later. It felt like his hand was on fire. He
jerked his hand back, and the pliers came with it. He tried to open his hand
and could not, when the guy working in the next room over came in with a
trouble light, it turned out that the insulation on the pliers had melted and
fused with his hand.
Of course, this outlet had no GFCI, and may have been more then a 50A breaker,
but it is where I was getting my thought that a fork would resistively heat
very quickly.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 07:40:13AM -0400, John Norton wrote:
> On Sun, 14 May 2006 22:48, Death to All Spammers wrote:
> >
> >The auto industry says there is no demand for EVs, but a used RAV4
> >sells for $20K over MSRP? Seems to disprove their statement...unless
> >someone bid this high from auction fever, or the collectors' value?
>
> It tells you about the market for *1* of these things.
>
> When offered for lease, Toyota found about 300 customers a year.
Found?!
They got 300 people a year they could not get off there back no matter how
hard they tried, and eventually succumbed and let them buy one. Despite all
deliberate effort to "find" 0 customers.
At least that's what it looked like from my point of view.
Nobody seems to really know what the market for these is, but don't be
fooled by Toyota, GM, Nissan, or Fords numbers.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 11:46:58AM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
> The heating will be so localised and short in duration that Igor's hand
> won't be burned at all.
You can see the story I posted regarding this.
Perhaps the breaker in that install was not working correctly, or was
over sized?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
By the way, I just got word from a senior executive at Vectrix who said in
no uncertain terms that that guy Roger Layola in Barcelona, Spain does *NOT*
have Vectrix bike. There is no one, not a single customer, who has one yet.
Deliveries will not start until November.
That guy just copied all of the info and photos off of Vectrix's website and
then put them up on the EV Album.
Charles Whalen
On Sunday, May 14, 2006 7:52 PM, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/765 Seems it is no longer vaporware.
Lawrence Rhodes
Bassoon/Contrabassoon
Reedmaker
Book 4/5 doubler
Electric Vehicle & Solar Power Advocate
Vegetable Oil Car.
415-821-3519
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Roger Stockton writes:
>
> Have that few people on this list actually ever caused an accidental
> short that resulted in opening an AC breaker? Surely more of us have
> first hand experience with tripping breakers than that?
Two Personal Breaker Events come to mind. Once as a kid I was trying
to remove a plug from a stubborn outlet, using an old hunting knife as
a lever. When the knife blade made contact with both prongs there was
a very bright flash and a bang and some sparks flew sideways, and the
breaker popped. The knife blade has a melted ding on one edge to this
day.
The other PBE was in more times when I accidently cut a live power cord.
Another bright flash and a bang and more sparks and a popped breaker,
and a pair of wire cutters with the tip of one jaw melted away.
Ralph
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TdS Report #38: Tour de Sol Winners Announced
from the NESEA press release ...
The Tour De Sol,
America's #1 Green Car Show and Competition,
Demonstrates How to Reduce Oil Use and Climate Change Emissions By Over 100%
Tour de Sol Winners Announced
GREENFIELD, MA -- May 14, 2006 --
The results are in - and over 50 light duty vehicles competing in the Tour de
Sol, America's #1 green car show and competition "driving toward zero carbon
emissions" demonstrated their ability of reducing oil use and climate change
emissions by over 100%, compared to conventional vehicles that achieve the 27
Miles Per Gallon (MPG) CAFE (Corporate Average Fuel Economy) standard for light
duty vehicles.
Held May 10-14 at the Saratoga Spa State Park and Saratoga Automobile Museum in
Saratoga Springs, NY, the Tour de Sol featured entrants in three separate
competitions who turned in spectacular results and took home trophies and
$10,000 in cash prizes. Using many energy efficiency techniques, and in some
cases switching to less carbon intensive fuels such as compressed natural gas,
biodiesel, vegetable oil, or electricity and hydrogen from clean renewable
sources, the entrants demonstrated an average of 66 MPG, 140% above the current
CAFE standard, and reductions in climate change emissions of 130%.
Wayne Gerdes of Illinois, West Philadelphia High School of Philadelphia, PA,
Greasecar Vegetable Fuel System, of Easthampton, MA, Burlington County Electecs
of Lawrenceville, NJ and Optibike of Bolder, CO took top honors.
"For auto enthusiasts and environmentalists these are tremendously exciting
results," said Nancy Hazard of the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
(NESEA), organizer of the Tour de Sol. "This demonstrates what is possible
today and that we can do even better in the near future. We must work together
and continue to develop vehicles that aim to cut oil use and climate change
emissions to zero."
"We have been very impressed with the innovative technologies demonstrated by
the vehicles participating in the Tour de Sol," said Peter R. Smith, President
and CEO of the New York State Energy Research and Development Authority,
premier sponsor of the event. "NYSERDA is pleased to have brought the Tour de
Sol to New York State to showcase how we can lessen our dependence on foreign
energy sources, and control our own energy destiny."
In the Monte Carlo style Rally, Gerdes drove a stock Insight from Chicago on a
single tank of gas achieving 90.4 MPG and captured the grand prize of the Monte
Carlo-style fuel efficiency Championship. Two other interesting independent
teams, Jack Lee from Venice, FL and Willy Williford from Campo, CA, had added
TurboChargers to their Honda Insights, which have a 57 MPG EPA rating. Jack
Lee's vehicle demonstrated over 76 MPG.
Perhaps the most interesting entry in the Monte Carlo Rally was a modified
Honda Insight employing Plug-In charging and Integrated Motor Assist, and a 5th
wheel powered by an electric motor for faster electric startup. This unique
vehicle, driven by Mike Dabrowski of North Grosvenordale, CT. achieved an
overall performance of 82.49 MPG and took 3 awards, including the top "Plug-In
Hybrid" Award.
Additionally, HyMotion, from Concord, Ontario, Canada, showed one of the most
interesting commercial options that could take hybrid technology to the next
level. HyMotion's PHEV (Plug-in Hybrid Vehicle) kit is designed to convert a
Toyota Prius or Ford Hybrid Escape into a hybrid vehicle that can drive in
electric-only mode for 20 miles, and plug into an electrical outlet for
recharging. The advantage of such a vehicle is that, in normal use where daily
driving is often between 20-40 miles, it could reduce gasoline use by 50 to
80%, and shift its motive energy to electricity from the Grid that can be
produced by zero-carbon renewable energy sources such as wind and solar.
In the alternative fuel division of the Monte Carlo-style Rally, Homeland
Energy Resources Development drove a Honda GX that runs on compressed natural
gas and has been cited as the "cleanest car on earth." Greasecar Vegetable
Fuel Systems entered an Austin Mini Clubman converted with their kit to run on
100% vegetable oil. Eastern Biofuels, the largest biodiesel supplier in the
Northeast, refueled the biodiesel-powered vehicles. The Gavin Watson team
received a cash prize from the National Biodiesel Board for taking first place
in this division with a 1973 Porsche 914 powered by 100% soybean oil that got
53 MPG and reduced climate change emissions by 87% compared to a conventional
27-MPG vehicle.
"We were thrilled with these performances," said Jim Dunn, CEO of the Center
for Technology Commercialization, Monte Carlo-style Rally sponsor. "Over
twenty teams entered conventional hybrid cars and demonstrated their ability to
exceed the EPA MPG standards in every case - and the modified hybrids turned in
spectacular results."
Sixteen teams entered the Tour de Sol Championship this year. This competition
challenges entrants to build one-of-a-kind highway-worthy vehicles that aim to
reduce oil use and climate change emissions to zero. West Philadelphia High
School took top honors in the student Hybrid and Alternative fuel division.
Their purpose-built sports car that can accelerate from 0 to 60 in 5.5 seconds
achieved a fuel efficiency of 55 MPG. The Greasecar Mad Mini team carried the
day in the independent division with Mini Cooper Clubman with Greasecar
Vegetable Fuel System kit installed so that it could run on 100% vegetable oil.
In the battery electric division, EVermont, from Waterbury, VT demonstrated
incredible fuel efficiency of electric vehicles with over 160 MPGe (Miles Per
Gallon equivalent), while the Burlington Electecs of Lawrenceville, NJ took top
honors with a student-built electric vehicle. In the Solar-Assisted electric
division, the West Irondequoit took top honors in the one-person category, and
St. Mark's School, Southborough, MA, took top honors in the two-person
category. St. Mark's and the North Haven Community School from North Haven,
ME, tied for the "Renewablity Prize," demonstrating zero climate change
emissions. St. Marks purchased green electricity from their local utility to
run their car, while North Haven added solar panels to their school to generate
electricity to run their car.
Another unique team, which traveled from Delhi College of Engineering in Delhi
India to the Tour de Sol, showcased a one-person hybrid vehicle. Their vehicle
demonstrated the importance of designing a vehicle to suit its use. This
vehicle was designed to address the transportation needs of millions of people
in India that presently use highly polluting motorcycles by presenting them
with a practical, very efficient hybrid option.
"We saw lots of innovative ideas in these one-of-a-kind vehicles that students
and independent teams brought this year," said Dr. Robert Wills, technical
director of the Tour de Sol Championship. "As in the past, we hope to see many
of these technologies on the showroom floor in the near future - helping to
clean the air we breathe and reduce carbon emission."
The new Around Town Vehicle Competition grew to eleven entries this year. This
competition challenges entrants to design motorized vehicles that could replace
the conventional car in our communities with zero carbon emission vehicles.
In the production division both Optibike and RunAbout Cycles attracted much
attention. Optibike, of Bolder, CO, demonstrated an amazing range of 104 miles
in less than four hours on its electric bicycle, Optibike 400, which uses
lithium batteries. In the independent and student divisions there were four
entries using lithium batteries and two using lead acid batteries.
In the neighborhood electric vehicle division, competition was fierce with
three GEMs entered - one from the Southern Berkshire Regional School,
Sheffield, MA and two from the Saratoga Spa State Park, Saratoga Springs, NY.
All of the vehicles drove over 20 miles with conventional lead acid batteries
and received a cash prize from the Advanced Lead Acid Battery Consortium for
their achievements. The Berkshire school also brought an amazing educational
trailer with wind and solar demonstrations. Lastly Newburgh Free Academy, New
Windsor, NY, entered several interesting non-road vehicles.
"We were thrilled to see the Around Town Vehicle Competition grow this year,"
said Paul O'Brien of the Southern Berkshire Regional School District, creator
of the new NEV competition rules. "This kind of a project is affordable and a
great teaching tool. It involves research, problem solving, teamwork, computer
and hands-on experience, and it creates awareness about our energy and
environmental challenges and possible solutions in the transportation sector.
Premier sponsors of the 2006 Tour de Sol were the New York State Energy
Research and Development Authority and the Center for Technology
Commercialization. Additional key sponsors included the New York Power
Authority, the Saratoga Automobile Museum, Stewart's Shops, New York State
Office of Parks, Recreation, and Historic Preservation, Eastern Biofuels, New
York Department of Environmental Conservation, Toyota, the UK Trade &
Investment, Honda, Kurkoski Solar Electric, Westboro Toyota, the U.S.
Environmental Protection Agency, E-The Environmental Magazine, EIN Publishing,
and GreenBiz.com.
The Northeast Sustainable Energy Association, organizer of the Tour de Sol, is
the Northeast's leading organization of professionals and concerned citizens
working in sustainable energy, and whole systems thinking. NESEA facilitates
the widespread adoption and use of sustainable energy by providing support to
industry professionals and by educating and motivating consumers to learn
about, ask for and adopt sustainable-energy and green-building practices.
NESEA accomplishes this through conferences, K-12 educational resources, its
members and chapters, its Sustainable Yellow Pages, and public events.
To find out more about the Tour de Sol:
http://www.TourdeSol.org
Photographs Available On Request
Organizer
Northeast Sustainable Energy Association
Premier Sponsors
New York State Energy Research and Development Authority
Center for Technology Commercialization
Event-Site Hosts
Saratoga Spa State Park
Saratoga Automobile Museum
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The complete set of Tour de Sol Reports for 2006 can be found at:
http://www.AutoAuditorium.com/TdS_Reports_2006
The complete set of past Tour de Sol Reports can be found at:
http://www.FovealSystems.com/Tour_de_Sol_Reports.html
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The above is Copyright 2006 by Michael H. Bianchi.
Permission to copy is granted provided the entire article is presented
without modification and this notice remains attached.
For other arrangements, contact me at +1-973-822-2085 .
- - - -
For more on the NESEA Tour de Sol, see the web page at
http://www.TourdeSol.org
- - - -
Official NESEA Tour de Sol information is available from the sponsor,
the Northeast Sustainable Energy Association (NESEA) at
413 774-6051 , and 50 Miles Street, Greenfield, MA 01301 , and
[EMAIL PROTECTED] . All media enquiries should be addressed to ...
Stef Komorowski
Classic Communications
508-698-6810
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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> On Mon, May 15, 2006 at 11:46:58AM -0700, Roger Stockton wrote:
> > The heating will be so localised and short in duration that Igor's hand
> > won't be burned at all.
>
Shouldn't we be concerned with little Igor playing with two pieces of wire? Or
any combination?
Limiting this argument to just a fork (i.e. not considering the person as part
of the conductive
path) falls short of considering all the real possibilities.
Dave Cover
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Nick Austin wrote:
> You can see the story I posted regarding this.
>
> Perhaps the breaker in that install was not working
> correctly, or was over sized?
Hard to say. I'll counter with my own story: I was replacing the range
in my condo, and the original had been hard-wired in. The guys who
delivered the new range and took the old one away disconnected the old
range but were not allowed by law to connect the new range to the
orginal cable as ranges were required to plug into outlets now. I
couldn't locate the fuse for the 240V circuit, so I went to work
installing an outlet on the live cable carefully handling one wire at a
time with a pair of insulated pliers. Not carefully enough, however,
since at one point I allowed the pliers to short something. There was a
loud snap/crackle sound and a flash, and I instinctively pulled the
pliers away. The fuse did not blow, and other than a small arc mark on
the pliers there was no damage to anything. I finished up the job.
I've also accidentally shorted a 120V circuit with a screwdriver with
similar results: a small burn mark on the screwdriver, and a tripped
breaker.
I've seen a pair of cutters after someone inadvertantly cut a 120V cable
they thought was dead; the cutting jaws had a hole where the cutting
edge shorted the wires, but they were otherwise fine. The insulation on
the handles was not damaged, nor was the fellow's hand.
I'm not certain what exactly your friend did, but I'd have to say that
the outcome is not at all typical in my experience.
Cheers,
Roger.
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