EV Digest 5509
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Aerodynamics .. viktor's idea .. to reduce 'drag' to near zero
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: PFC and the humming breaker
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Source for NiFe batteries (Was: Question about NIMH patent(s))
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: g'bye Porsche, need to clear up a point
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AC vs. DC {getting long}
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: G'bye Porsche...
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) wing sail .. aka tornado sailboat
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: bifilar windings
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: G'bye Porsche...
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Three-wheel Go-cart
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Edison batteries
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Edison batteries
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Aerodynamics .. viktor's idea .. to reduce 'drag' to near zero
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Swing arm oscillation point is the same for chain and belts, EV or not.
Testing infernal combustion engine motorbike on dyno shop give real numbers
for chain efficiency as you have power at wheel and power at clutch, ask
them how is loosed you are going to be surprised, chain is not so good you
think...
now ask them how loose harley, Buell, BMW F650, you are going to be
surprised again ;^)
In my scooter design, electric motor is fixed to swing arm to obtain maximum
efficiency all the time.
after few test, I choose STM Contitech sunchroforce CXPIII belts because i
have same efficiency than a new racing type chain AND more important keep
this efficiency with 1/10 tensionning operation for near all belt life.
Comparing to race chain, which slightly best efficency fall down between
each tensionning adjustement, always being worst and worst was the key.
I admit high efficiency need good beltselection, perfect pulley
alignement/belt adjustment which require laser tools but there is also "no
special tool required" procedure, just ask at your belts constructor.
imho major problem with timing belts are using the right belt for the task
and having perfect alignement, ask Gone postal racer's how they learned that
the hard way.
once well designed, belt systems are champions :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:24 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
> That's a point often brought out in favor of belts. When I contacted Gates
> mfgring, they gave a slightly different tale.
>
> It seems these belts, under constant speed/tension, and properly
tensioned,
> do deliver this sort of performance. However, in an EV, unless the motor
is
> mounted on the swing arm, then the suspension travel is almost always
> somewhat out in regards to the drive... so the belt changes tension as the
> suspension moves. (Basically, it's too tight or flops... both waste
power.)
> The motor power, by design, is seldom under even strain, which can
further
> reduce efficiency. He also pointed out that adjusting them properly
requires
> some skill. With mine, that mainly meant making sure it didn't get too
tight
> under acceleration... and just allowing it to flop when in other
positions.
> 98% is a dream... but anything above 85% is the goal.
>
> As a few Sparrow owners found, it's not a bad idea to carry a spare belt
and
> tools to swap it out. As with timing belts, they sometimes don't give a
lot
> of notice before blowing.
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 1:04 PM
> Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
>
>
> > I disagree about efficiency podium !
> >
> > Gates GT2 Belt and similar like Contitech synchropower with 98% have
> better
> > efficiency than chain which can't pass 95%... for racing, type without
> > o-ring, well lubrificated, new, good tensionning force etc .
> > Let me know about a chain (oring is worst) which is 98% efficient,
...and
> > still 98% efficient all is time life ?
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hehe... interesting reading about Schauberger and Tesla's turbine
peekay, thanks.
Drawing on my own limited experience (under sail), I toy w/the idea of
a wing sail as an assist to the batteries... Think high aspect ratio
(tall&skinny) wind surfer-type rig, mounted fwd.of the rider (for "free
air".) Because of ambient winds, there is almost aways some side
breeze, so apparent wind (sum of true plus wind from fwd.motion) never
from dead ahead.
Here is how I prefer to travel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_%28sailboat%29
Point is only, that a high aspect foil, even just 10sq.ft. in area, may
extend distances on a charge by 5-10%? Maybe? How fun would it be to
be able to reach along the shoreline bicycle path in a nice onshore
breeze, with a foil recharging the batteries as I go?
Might be pie-in-sky. Dunno `til I built it <smile>
Lock
Toronto
--- peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> in the company of experienced experts, it is not with great
> confidence that
> one can suggest .. yet .. may i ?
>
> the drag is caused by the air molecules sticking to the surface of
> cars,
> planes, etc ..
>
> viktor schauberger patented an idea to reduce drag to near zero ..
> which is
> absurdly simple .. but works for a different application ..
>
> maybe an adaptation of that "theory" would see wierd rhombic thingys
> all
> over the car front, to make the air flow "away" from the surfaces
>
> ..peekay
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:37 AM
> Subject: RE: Aerodynamics
>
>
> > EVen though my Currie scooter struggles to reach 20kmh on a good
> day, I
> > regularly see 40+kmh air as headwinds...
> > So I am still interested in aero re a "next gen" scooter, even at
> these
> > slower speeds!
> > Tks
> > Lock
> > Toronto
> >
> >
> > --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > If the car isn't driven much over 50kmh (30mph) aero improvements
> > > probably won't make much difference.
> > > Don
> > > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > >
> > > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > On
> > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > Sent: May 19, 2006 8:26 AM
> > > To: [email protected]
> > > Subject: Aerodynamics
> > >
> > > I'm sure every little bit helps. But what I think would tell me
> just
> > > how
> > > much aero resistance is costing, is to put a vehicle on a chassis
> > > dyno and
> > > use the onboard Emeter to see what the WH/mile is without wind as
> a
> > > factor.
> > > Then drive it on the road at the same speed. The difference would
> be
> > > mostly
> > > due to aero resistance. Then do the same thing with aero
> > > "improvements".
> > > This may generate more facts than lore
> > > ;)
> > >
> > > Mike
__________________________________________________
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Try recycling the circuit breakers. First turn off all loads to the main
circuit breaker and tighten all the wire connections to the breakers. Then
turn the circuit breaker off and on several times. Some times carbon built
up on the contacts causes a increase in resistance which allows it to heat
up.
I have a 150 amp main circuit breaker that feeds a 50 amp branch breaker,
that feeds a combination 50 amp circuit breaker power receptacle that feeds
the EV power plug, that feeds a onboard 60 amp breaker, that feeds a AC
magnetic contactor, and than finally the 50 amp circuit breaker in the
PFC-50.
One time the on board 60 amp Square D circuit breaker warm up while all the
others were ice cold. The normal maintenance check, is to turn off the
load, turn on and off the circuit breaker about 10 times and re-tighten the
wire connections. This solve my heating problem.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 1:24 AM
Subject: Re: PFC and the humming breaker
> It sounds like the PFC30 is in need of repair.
> They do this when one of the IGBTs has failed. The PF goes away... and
> Well
> Things are NOT really cool from then on.
>
> I need to know if you cleared the issue. since a PFC30 should not make a
> sound... or even slightly warm up a 100 amp breaker.
>
> Either we have a hurt charger here or... something else is really
> happening.
>
> My hunch is it's something else ..since the PFC30 would have to be basicly
> melting way to put that much hurt on a 100 amp breaker...
>
> Very not good what ever it is.
>
> Rich Rudman
> Manzanita Micro
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 11:27 PM
> Subject: PFC and the humming breaker
>
>
> > Bob Rice stopped by here a couple of days ago, on his way back from
> Joliet.
> > He arrived with a hungry 120 volt Rabbit, so I hacked up a quick adapter
> for
> > him to plug in to the 240v 20a receptacle in my garage. Then we went
> inside
> > and watched his raw video footage for a while.
> >
> > A few hours later, I went down in the cellar for something, and noticed
> that
> > my main electrical panel was humming quite loudly. The hum was coming
> from
> > the 100 amp main breaker (it's a Square D QO type). Both it and the 50
> amp
> > QO breaker that feeds my garage subpanel were noticeably warm, though
> > not
> at
> > all hot.
> >
> > Bob has a 120v pack and a PFC-30 in the Rabbit. Although I didn't check
> it,
> > presumably the PFC was shoving 30 amps into the pack. (Right?) If the
> > PFC's efficiency claims are true, and I have no reason to doubt them, it
> > should have been drawing only a little over 15 amps from my 240 volt
> > receptacle. So why were the breakers getting warm? And why did the
> > main
> > breaker hum so loudly?
> >
> > I've never seen (heard) that effect with any other similar load. Not
> > even
> > with my 240v Brusa switchmode charger, nor with my 120v K&W BC-20
> glorified
> > triac light dimmer charger with its truly awful power factor. What's
> > the
>
> > deal here? Anyone have an idea?
> >
> > Thanks for the thoughts.
> >
> >
> > David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> > EV List Assistant Administrator
> >
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
> > or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> > Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
> > To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
> > = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michaela Merz writes:
>
> So - let's say I would put 12 x 12V in my truck. Gives me 144 V nominal
> for about 6500 $ and 220 Ah @ 20hrs rate. Weight would be 1600 pounds,
> same as for T-125s. My question would be, if there is a high discharge
> penalty like we have with LA - the more you draw, the less you'll get ;)
I think that, in general, nickel-based batteries don't tolerate high
current discharge rates. If you went with a 144v pack in your truck
you'll be subjecting the pack to discharge rates of 300-400 amps when
accelerating or going uphill. If the NiFEs can even deliver this
current, they may not last long doing so...
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Before this thread goes away, I want to clear up one point. A lot of the early
discussion/speculation was about an internal cell/battery failure with parallel
batteries. Is this
specific to parallel strings or could this happen in a plain series strings of
cells/batteries?
I want to make sure I'm covering my bases on my pack. I plan on having a pack
in the back with an
HDPE lid. Maybe I should also have a metal cover bolted over that as a fire
block?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- Mark Ward <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I would have to agree about the path for current being necessary. The
> battery by itself isn't going to do anything without a load on the string.
>
> There has to be some other catastrophic failure of insulation or a device.
> Of course this may never be known.
>
> Maybe a Poltergeist?
>
> Mark Ward
> 95 Saab 900SE "Saabrina"
> www.saabrina.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 5:13 PM
> Subject: RE: g'bye Porsche
>
>
> > michael bearden wrote:
> >
> >> I was way puzzled until Brian came over on Monday and said
> >> that he had talked to Roderick (Wilde) who said he remembers
> >> one other time this happened to an EV with Optimas (which I
> >> had). One cell reversed, and turned into a very hungry
> >> resistor/heat sink which caused the destruction of the EV.
> >
> > This sounds like a possibility, but only if there was some path for
> > current to flow through the failed cell, and a source of voltage to
> > force the current to flow.
> >
> > In a buddy-pair setup, the good battery will discharge into the its
> > lower voltage partner in the event that a cell fails shorted or
> > reversed.
> >
> > In a setup with paralleled strings, the higher voltage string will
> > discharge into the lower voltage string should a cell fail shorted or
> > reversed in one string.
> >
> > In a single string pack, there shouldn't be any source of voltage to
> > send current through the shorted/reversed cell unless the car is on
> > charge.
> >
> > The only way that an internal battery failure could have resulted in
> > your fire is if an Optima somehow failed internally such that the
> > remaining cells in the battery were able to discharge through this
> > internal resistance and cause localised heating sufficient to ignite
> > some combustible materials; a simple shorted or reversed cell would not
> > do it.
> >
> > I hesitate to say it, but another possibility is that the failure was
> > *external* to the batteries. You mention that you were using regs, and
> > that the fire appeared to have started near a couple of the weakest
> > batteries. Regs could provide a possible path through which a battery
> > could drive sufficient current to cause a fire if conditions were right.
> > If a battery/cell failed *open*, and there was some load connected
> > across the pack (dc/dc, or possibly even an inactive charger, depending
> > on its design) to provide a path for current to flow, then that
> > battery's reg would be subjected to full pack voltage, and if not
> > appropriately fused this could result in enough power dissipation in the
> > reg to start a fire. Regs also do not take well to exposure to the
> > elements, and your car was parked outside. It could be one of those
> > situations where the failure actually occurred during charge; something
> > got hot enough to start some flammable materials smoldering, but it
> > wasn't until hours later that things got fanned into full blaze...
> >
> > It seems at least as likely as the failed cell theory, especially since
> > with your single string setup a cell failure should just have left you
> > with a pack voltage 2V or 4V lower than expected.
> >
> > Cells failing shorted is certainly not unique to Optimas; it is a
> > possible failure mechanism for any lead acid battery, and for
> > cylindrical Li cells. I've never heard of a cell spontaneously
> > reversing, though cell reversal during discharge is certainly a
> > possibility for any lead acid battery.
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Roger.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fine. I can put a page up today if you want. I have lots of space
and bandwidth.
Full info on each drive system.
Since the DC system will have more "options" (like which DC-DC to
use) we may want to provide several possible configurations.
I'd like to specify more than one battery configuration for each
system as well. (Optima, Golf Cart, Hawker, etc.. (can we get current
pricing on NiCd, NiMf, and LiIon?)
At 12:14 AM 5/20/2006, Otmar wrote:
If someone wants to host comparison page, I'll supply technical info.
And I'll gladly do the same. I'd like to see such a page.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael,
Sorry to hear about your EV torching itself. Good thing it wasn't
in the garage...
Is it possible that the regulator on one of the batteries near the
source of the fire got wet? I had an older regulator short on when
it got wet. It got pretty hot while sitting there discharging the
battery. Fortunately I caught it before anything melted or caught
fire.
Or maybe there was something else connected to one of these batteries
that caused a short?
Otherwise, it would be hard to explain why a battery in a series
string like that could spontaneously overheat.
Ralph
michael bearden writes:
>
> Hello EV'ers...it's been a long time since I have been able to be a part
> of this discussion list. I have been overwhelmed with demands on my time
> since I left my career type job at the University in 2003, and have not
> been able to keep up with routine e-mails, much less the traffic on the
> EVDL. I have been having a great EV time though driving the slick 914
> conversion that I bought from Brian Hall last year; a real attention
> getter and conversation-starter...until last Sunday morning, when it was
> the 5 AM wake up call for our rural neighborhood when it went up in
> flames very spectacularly. This EV had a really nice custom fiberglass
> body, and that stuff burned big time. On the side of "This is Bad, but
> it could have been (much) Worse", I had been having a problem with the
> shift linkage and couldn't get it into reverse, which is the only reason
> it was parked OUTSIDE of the garage. Inside of the garage were two
> other vehicles ( the Gogomobil and our Civic Hybrid) and every tool I
> own (which is quite a few...If the Porsche had been inside, no one would
> have known about the fire until the whole garage was totally involved.
> So, give thanks where appropriate.
>
> I had driven the EV Saturday, and charged it when I returned, thinking
> that I was going to drive it Saturday night and Sunday morning, but then
> plans changed, and I took another car Saturday night. So, it wasn't
> plugged in, and it wasn't moving.
>
> The arson investigator couldn't find any cause for the fire, and I was
> way puzzled until Brian came over on Monday and said that he had talked
> to Roderick (Wilde) who said he remembers one other time this happened
> to an EV with Optimas (which I had). One cell reversed, and turned into
> a very hungry resistor/heat sink which caused the destruction of the
> EV. This makes sense to me, since the origin of the fire that the
> investigator pointed out to me was where the weakest two batteries were
> (the next two to be replaced).
>
> I have been working my way through the 32 YT's that I salvaged out of
> the wreck of WATTABMR in 2003, and they have been lasting nicely thanks
> to Rich and Joes' continued development of the regulator technology.
>
> Anyway, thoughts on this: my garage/shop is separated from the house by
> a pretty good distance...what if it was underneath living quarters (as
> many garages are)?
>
> Are AGMs uniquely susceptible to this, or is this a potential problem
> for other types of batteries?
>
> Michael B (accomplished Chef of Porsche Flambe')
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
thanks .. a wing sail to charge an ev .. its 'different' for sure
i've seen many vans with a portable mast with a wind turbine
atop and used for similar purpose
cute
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 5:22 PM
Subject: Re: Aerodynamics .. viktor's idea .. to reduce 'drag' to near zero
> Hehe... interesting reading about Schauberger and Tesla's turbine
> peekay, thanks.
>
> Drawing on my own limited experience (under sail), I toy w/the idea of
> a wing sail as an assist to the batteries... Think high aspect ratio
> (tall&skinny) wind surfer-type rig, mounted fwd.of the rider (for "free
> air".) Because of ambient winds, there is almost aways some side
> breeze, so apparent wind (sum of true plus wind from fwd.motion) never
> from dead ahead.
>
> Here is how I prefer to travel:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tornado_%28sailboat%29
>
> Point is only, that a high aspect foil, even just 10sq.ft. in area, may
> extend distances on a charge by 5-10%? Maybe? How fun would it be to
> be able to reach along the shoreline bicycle path in a nice onshore
> breeze, with a foil recharging the batteries as I go?
>
> Might be pie-in-sky. Dunno `til I built it <smile>
> Lock
> Toronto
>
> --- peekay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > in the company of experienced experts, it is not with great
> > confidence that
> > one can suggest .. yet .. may i ?
> >
> > the drag is caused by the air molecules sticking to the surface of
> > cars,
> > planes, etc ..
> >
> > viktor schauberger patented an idea to reduce drag to near zero ..
> > which is
> > absurdly simple .. but works for a different application ..
> >
> > maybe an adaptation of that "theory" would see wierd rhombic thingys
> > all
> > over the car front, to make the air flow "away" from the surfaces
> >
> > ..peekay
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Lock Hughes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 2:37 AM
> > Subject: RE: Aerodynamics
> >
> >
> > > EVen though my Currie scooter struggles to reach 20kmh on a good
> > day, I
> > > regularly see 40+kmh air as headwinds...
> > > So I am still interested in aero re a "next gen" scooter, even at
> > these
> > > slower speeds!
> > > Tks
> > > Lock
> > > Toronto
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > If the car isn't driven much over 50kmh (30mph) aero improvements
> > > > probably won't make much difference.
> > > > Don
> > > > Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
> > > >
> > > > see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > On
> > > > Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> > > > Sent: May 19, 2006 8:26 AM
> > > > To: [email protected]
> > > > Subject: Aerodynamics
> > > >
> > > > I'm sure every little bit helps. But what I think would tell me
> > just
> > > > how
> > > > much aero resistance is costing, is to put a vehicle on a chassis
> > > > dyno and
> > > > use the onboard Emeter to see what the WH/mile is without wind as
> > a
> > > > factor.
> > > > Then drive it on the road at the same speed. The difference would
> > be
> > > > mostly
> > > > due to aero resistance. Then do the same thing with aero
> > > > "improvements".
> > > > This may generate more facts than lore
> > > > ;)
> > > >
> > > > Mike
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
since there is a lot of talk on use of dc motors and
since dc motors have stator 'poles' which sometimes
are also strengthened by looping back some current
generated in the dc generator, and
since the winding usually is just a simple coil on the core
using a single wire
therefore the issue would be : what if a bifilar winding
is used on the pole .. the so called 250,000 times
amplification casued by such winding (as in the refered
tesla's invention link) .. how will it affect the magnetic
ability of the pole ?
or is the bifilar a totally different thingy ?
..peekay
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Baylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:14 AM
Subject: Re: bifilar windings
> If's just a term for describing two windings with the wires side by
> side on a transformer, motor, etc.
>
> Pretty decent writeup on Wikipedia:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifilar
>
> Brad Baylor
>
>
>
> --
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>
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Is it possible that the regulator on one of the batteries near the
source of the fire got wet? I had an older regulator short on when
it got wet. It got pretty hot while sitting there discharging the
battery. Fortunately I caught it before anything melted or caught
fire.
Sounds like a good reason for a fuse, or maybe a fuse trace on the board. I
think I'll archive this note.
Mark
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keith,
< I have a 4 three
wheelers and they are all tadpole design one with rear
stearing and all are stable and quick. >
Could you post more about your experiences with the rear steering 3 wheeler?
Does it track straight? Do the rear wheel self center? Is it easy for a
beginner to drive? Does it use a steering wheel or levers?
Have you pushed it hard such as an autocross course?
Do you have pictures?
Thanks
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I know a guy in the Bay Area with a bunch of the Edison cells. I bet he'd
give them to you. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: Edison batteries
You can sometimes find them for sale on the EV sites. There were several
auto batteries available, about 4 years ago, on one of the EV For Sale
sites. The only thing EBay has today is the wooden box 4 of these cells
were
kept in.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1890s-EDISON-LALANDE-Type-S-4-cell-battery-box_W0QQitemZ6279865096QQcategoryZ414QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You might also contact this dealer that scraps Edison batts. They insist
that the batts be stripped of their contacts and wooden crates, but might
guide you to someone.
http://www.recycle.net/specs/gr030560.html
The Edisonian might also know something about where to find them
http://www.edisonian.com
I've also read that a Chinese company (and one in Europe???) is making
replacements.
They weren't used in all that many autos, but were popular for industrial
uses, due to their long life and relatively light weight per watt
(compared
to LA of the time.) Apparently the 1.3V required too many cells, and their
maintenance/weather profile, made them not the best for mobile
applications.
(Though I understand some forklifts and heavy trucks may have used them.)
They were critical to be kept maintained & didn't do well in the cold...
and
hydrogen offgassing during charging doesn't make them overly popular.
These can often be rebuilt today, 100 years after they were built, I'm
told.
(Jay Leno's car has the original batts.. or at least the original cases...
and uses it to drive his car around.) You'll see a lot of bottles for sale
"Edison Battery Oil". That oil was dumped atop the batts, floating, to
minimize evaporation.
"Another widely used secondary cell is the alkaline cell, or nickel-iron
battery, developed by the American inventor Thomas Edison in the 1900s.
The
principle of operation is the same as in the lead-acid cell except that
the
negative electrode consists of iron, the positive electrode is of nickel
oxide, and the electrolyte is a solution of potassium hydroxide. The
nickel-iron cell has the disadvantage of giving off hydrogen gas during
charging. This battery is used principally in heavy industry applications.
The Edison battery has a useful life of approximately ten years and
produces
about 1.15 V."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Andre' Blanchard" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
I'd love to disect an original Edison battery. I think they were in
metal cans?
It's clear that the energy density is not as good as lead acid, but
then again, maybe that can be changed.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Might I ask the efficiency of shaft drive? You'd think it'd be sumular to
rear drive vehicles. LR....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 4:34 AM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
I disagree about efficiency podium !
Gates GT2 Belt and similar like Contitech synchropower with 98% have
better
efficiency than chain which can't pass 95%.
You need to read up on this a bit more. Gates poly chain can achieve 98%
efficiency, but ONLY when operating at it's maximum torque level.
The belt losses are almost constant regardles of power, so you only hit
maximum efficiency at just before the point where it starts stripping
teeth off the belt.
So if you size the belt system to have just enough torque to climb a hill,
and assuming that on the flats you are running at approx 10% of the torque
used for climbing the hill, then if the losses stay the same the 2% loss
when climbing the hill becomes a 20% loss on the flats.
This is why many/most of the solar racing teams no longer use belt drives.
A well oil chain stays at approx 96% across a wide band of torque/power.
.. for racing, type without
o-ring, well lubrificated, new, good tensionning force etc .
Let me know about a chain (oring is worst) which is 98% efficient, ...and
still 98% efficient all is time life ?
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Cc: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 6:52 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
This note is primarily a response to Mike Phillips question related to
drive
types for a donor EV motorcycle. Most of the posts here have hit well on
the
characteristics of belt or chain or shaft type final drives for 2
wheeled
applications. I just wanted to touch on some of the other points in a
bit
more
comprehensive evaluation.
Efficiency in order best to worst
1) chain
2) belt (in this case I am referring to a toothed synchronous type like
Gates Poly Chain GT2)
3) shaft
Please note that drive chains come in two basic types, industrial and
"O-Ring". Modern motorcycle applications all use the o-ring type that
seals a small
reserve of oil to allow a longer wearing chain with less attention to
maintenance. O-Ring types do reduce efficiency compared to industrial
types. Over
the past few years manufacturers have created things like X-Rings to
address
the efficiency loss issue.
Weight in order lightest to heaviest
1) belt (aluminum cogged pulleys, kevlar fiber reinforced toothed belt)
2) chain
3) shaft
Most people do not realize that in a typical motorcycle application the
chain and sprockets are fairly heavy. This is why you see aluminum
sprockets and
slotted chain side plates used in racing applications. On my 750cc
Suzuki
ICE
street bike (all steel) a 14t front sprocket, 41t rear, and 96 links of
#630
chain weigh ~12 pounds.
Noise in order of quietest to noisiest
1) belt
2) shaft
3) chain
My Kawasaki Ninja EV uses a std. motorcycle type #525 chain drive. Once
the
ICE is gone the noise of the drive chain is really LOUD. This is true
on
every EV motorcycle I have ridden. The noise is enough to be really
annoying even
when wearing a full coverage helmet. Of course this helps in parking
lots
as
people can hear me coming and I don't scare my neighbors. I have to
admit
that I lust after a quiet belt drive.
Handling
Note that the shaft drive has an unusual behavior under hard
acceleration
like exiting a corner. I think of the shaft drive as much like the ring
and
pinion gears in the rear end of a rear drive car. This may not be
completely
accurate for a motorcycle, but bear with me. When accelerating hard the
ring
gear attempts to climb the pinion causing the rear seat of the
motorcycle
to
rise instead of the expected squatting behavior. This feels funny to
most
riders
the first time they are on a shaft drive bike. The short story is that
you
get used to it and modern motorcycles have attempted to minimize this
behavior.
Durability most to least
1) shaft
2) chain
3) Belt
The average well maintained O-Ring type chain should last well over
15,000
miles which might be 8 to 10 years on the average EV motorcycle. The
downside
is that periodic adjustments ~ every 1,000 miles are required to
accommodate
for the chain stretching and of course there is some throw off of the
oil
used
to lubricate the chain. The oil throw off on my rear wheel and electric
motor really offends my EV sensibility.
Also note that riders may want to factor in their riding conditions
before
choosing a belt drive. Small rocks form dirt, gravel, or even a freshly
coated
blacktop rock chip type surface can tear the crap out of belt quickly
causing complete failure while driving.
Cost cheapest to most expensive
1) chain
2) belt
3) shaft
A good chain set up costs $150 to $200 including replacing the
sprockets.
Conclusions
- I really don't mind the maint. associated with a chain drive, but the
weight, noise and mess are unpleasant. Cost and availability of modular
replacement parts is also an advantage.
- I recognize that a shaft drive does offer quiet operation with no
mess,
little maint. and great durability at the expense of weight and
handling.
- However I believe that the ideal drive for an EV motorcycle is a
synchronous belt drive. The benefits are no messy oil, light weight and
quiet
operation. The downside is cost, potential durability issues and
maintenance to
adjust for belt stretch.
Mike Bachand
DEVC
Colorado
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
a hundred bucks for an empty wooden box?
Mark Grasser
78 #358
BIG REDs
http://members.rennlist.com/mgrasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, May 20, 2006 12:43 PM
Subject: Re: Edison batteries
I know a guy in the Bay Area with a bunch of the Edison cells. I bet he'd
give them to you. Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 5:49 PM
Subject: Edison batteries
You can sometimes find them for sale on the EV sites. There were several
auto batteries available, about 4 years ago, on one of the EV For Sale
sites. The only thing EBay has today is the wooden box 4 of these cells
were
kept in.
http://cgi.ebay.com/1890s-EDISON-LALANDE-Type-S-4-cell-battery-box_W0QQitemZ6279865096QQcategoryZ414QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
You might also contact this dealer that scraps Edison batts. They insist
that the batts be stripped of their contacts and wooden crates, but might
guide you to someone.
http://www.recycle.net/specs/gr030560.html
The Edisonian might also know something about where to find them
http://www.edisonian.com
I've also read that a Chinese company (and one in Europe???) is making
replacements.
They weren't used in all that many autos, but were popular for industrial
uses, due to their long life and relatively light weight per watt
(compared
to LA of the time.) Apparently the 1.3V required too many cells, and
their
maintenance/weather profile, made them not the best for mobile
applications.
(Though I understand some forklifts and heavy trucks may have used them.)
They were critical to be kept maintained & didn't do well in the cold...
and
hydrogen offgassing during charging doesn't make them overly popular.
These can often be rebuilt today, 100 years after they were built, I'm
told.
(Jay Leno's car has the original batts.. or at least the original
cases...
and uses it to drive his car around.) You'll see a lot of bottles for
sale
"Edison Battery Oil". That oil was dumped atop the batts, floating, to
minimize evaporation.
"Another widely used secondary cell is the alkaline cell, or nickel-iron
battery, developed by the American inventor Thomas Edison in the 1900s.
The
principle of operation is the same as in the lead-acid cell except that
the
negative electrode consists of iron, the positive electrode is of nickel
oxide, and the electrolyte is a solution of potassium hydroxide. The
nickel-iron cell has the disadvantage of giving off hydrogen gas during
charging. This battery is used principally in heavy industry
applications.
The Edison battery has a useful life of approximately ten years and
produces
about 1.15 V."
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Andre' Blanchard" <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
I'd love to disect an original Edison battery. I think they were in
metal cans?
It's clear that the energy density is not as good as lead acid, but
then again, maybe that can be changed.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The belt was similar to the Harley belt in size. Naturally, under contract,
Gates can't sell the Harley belts to the public, but they have a very
similar belt for sale. I asked about the tensioner. The Gates representative
said these weren't a good idea, because the belt isn't designed for that
sort of tension. I don't completely understand that, because these are very
similar to timing belts and all of those have tension applied via a
tensioner.
In my case, it was actually 2 belts, one driving a counter shaft and the 2nd
driving the rear wheel. If I'd used chains, it would have been considerably
noisier. It wasn't an unpleasant noise... much like you'd "expect" from an
EV. <g>
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2006 11:10 PM
Subject: Re: Fw: Vectrix - Now Belt verses Chain verses Shaft drive types
> I have two follow on thoughts....
>
> First to mperry regarding the noise of a belt. How wide was the noisy belt
> in your car? I was speaking about a fairly narrow belt say 3/4 inch. I am
told
> that a wide belt is noisy as air get trapped between the belt and the
> pulleys. This is typically addressed by drilling holes that allow the air
to
> escape. Perhaps a shaft and belt drive are similar in terms of the noise
they
> generate.
>
> Second to the efficiency issue. Would a tensioner that provides a fairly
> constant pressure help the efficiency of a belt drive? Does anyone have
> experience to share?
>
> Mike Bachand
> DEVC
> Colorado
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