EV Digest 5532
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: SAFT NiCds
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: SAFT NiCds
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: clutch or clutchless
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers (Update)
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: clutch or clutchless
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Instrumentation (was Re: Things I'd like to buy from EV suppliers)
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Starting again...AGM question
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: clutch or clutchless
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by "Jonathan Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: clutch or clutchless
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Starting again...AGM question
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Starting again...AGM question
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: SAFT NiCds
by "John Luck Home" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: I'd like EV suppliers...
by "Steve" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Lee's regs in action
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Another EV Lives
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Prius air-conditioning
by "Jim Seibert" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) RE: Lee's regs in action
by "Claudio Natoli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Honda Insight
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Starting again...AGM question
by michael bearden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Prius air-conditioning
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
The lugs are the heatsink for the zeners in these regulators. I used the
large Waytek lugs for both zeners. The smaller zener actually needs the
bigger lug more, to avoid overheating.
Interesting. I think the smaller one is the 6.2 volt one, it seems to
dissipate a bit less heat than the big fat one. I potted both of the
lugs; they seem to sink fairly well.
I also used heatshrink tubing; a smaller size for the lugs, and a larger
one for the lamp. The tubing serves as a mold to retain the potting
compound until it sets.
I recommend putting the lugs into an oven at 120 degrees or so for an
hour. It sets up the potting compound immediately; otherwise it takes
about 2 days to set.
Lee, did my numbers look reasonable BTW?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John you have a UK PSA ev specialist near you, seems to me you don't need
the French one ;^)
With EVlit available soon, you have perfect tool to make your batteries last
but please, even if this time should have near no effect, NEVER top-up the
STM without a maintenance charge !
In a dead or alive condition (you have waited to much time so your watering
needed light is ON and you can't, for some reasons, make the real servicing
immediatly)
THEN in this unique condition top-up ONLY AFTER a full charge + one more
charge (unplug and plug again for a second charge to bring electrolyte to
the maximum level allowed)
it's not as perfect as maintenance charge but it can make the batteries wait
for next well made servicing and that's way better than a low electrolyte
level failure...
Not only battery servicing menus EVlit will give you too: Volt, AMP and
others useful informations on dashboard, which PSA EV don't have from start.
I love my E-Clio for his onboard computer, EVlit give us what PSA should
have designed in the begining :^)
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 2:10 PM
Subject: Re: SAFT NiCds
> On 5/27/06, John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Hello Philippe - I made an adaptor on the lathe and have topped up my
cells
> > now. I did a full charge first.
>
> You should have done a maintenance charge first. Your cells are now
> likely to overflow and lose electrolyte.
>
> > I guess my problem is resetting the zero
> > point on the Energy meter.
>
> No, you need to zero the accumulated AH counter.
>
> > Its a shame PSA did not make some of the
> > servicing resets and charge initiation sequences available by a "coded"
> > pressing of certain switches instead of ELIT.
>
> Evlite will be available from next week.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
it's not as perfect as maintenance charge but it can make the batteries wait
for next well made servicing and that's way better than a low electrolyte
level failure...
Phillip:
Question for you: Just how low can the electrolyte level go on NiCDs? I
have been following the charge regemin for the BB600's (charge till it
can't take anymore, then check the water levels 15 minutes later) and
they almost never need water. However after sitting and running the
water is barely over the cell plates.
Is this normal?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The tilton and quartermaster multiplate clutches are rated quiet
high(300-800 lbft) for the sintered metal disk style. These cannot be
slipped but for an ev I have been just putting it in 2nd gear clutchless
as I come up to a light and shifting normally into third and occasionaly
4th. ( I have a 5.5" triple plate, but that required some tranny mods to
fit. So I recommend the 7.25 dual.)
The good part is that the button flywheels(no teeth or small
diameter tooth ring) are only made for small block chevy gen1,gen2 and
ford and the patternes for the clutches are the same reguardless of
manufacturer (man I wish the auto industry would play fair like the
racers). I just ordered disks with the nissan spline from tilton.
The whole clutch weighs less than 8 lbs and has an inertia of 66,3
Lb-in^2, so it woun't ad to the rotational inertia too much. They are
abundent to find used on ebay and at M&R racing(
http://www.mrracingequipment.com/ these people are very nice) . You can
order the s10 taperock adapter for the 9" for whatever car, my taperlock
adapter that I designed looks just like someone' elses, i was surprised,
i didn't try to make it the same
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
vs
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00061.jpg (looks huge but that button
flywheel attached is only 5.5" dia, I trimmed off the gear teeth
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00067.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00071.jpg here it is on the warp 9
this has been "tested" , no slip and on excessive rpm, the cluth did not
blow up.
I think otmar can atest to their use on a zilla 2K.
One more thing I woul like to mention that is often ignored. The torque
on the clutch is developed because we are trying to move a heavy mass, A
6000lb EV will need a stronger clutch than a 4000Lb EV. Often we focus
on the controller and the motor and forget what they are working
against. The reactive force of moving a heavier EV will take more
torque for the same acceleration.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thank you Mike. That was exactly what I was thinking. And to put my money
where my mouth is, I am willing to put some funds on the table.
So, if anybody is willing AND ABLE to construct one of the systems below,
and, in addition willing and able to produce a mini series so that other
EVers might also benefit from those development, please notify me off list
to discuss possible research and development support.
Michaela
Mike wrote:
> Michaela asked for:
>
> 1. Some pre-configured a/c compressors or complete systems (i.e.
> like an aftermarket vintage air system, modified for ev use).
>
> The A/C solution Solectria used with the small PM motor
> drive driving a small compressor though a toothed belt seems like
> something that actually might be duplicated with a kit. All that
> would need to be unique to each installation would be mounting
> brackets to fit it to you EV and custom hoses to couple it to the
> existing A/C system. Since custom hoses can be fabricated by many
> auto parts stores, this seems like something that would not be that
> hard to make available as a partial kit type product.
>
> 2. A regen system that would come with a small generator or modified
> alternator and all the supplies I would need to hook up to the
> auxiliary shaft of my motor.
>
> Rod Wilde and Solar Car Corp both used a setup with a custom
> rewound to pack voltage heavy truck alternator belt driven from the
> tailshaft of the drive motor. Solar drove it through a A/C style
> electric clutch, I am not sure about Rod's. While driving, the
> clutch was disengaged and the alternator was un powered so no added
> drag was created. When you stepped on the brake pedal the clutch
> would engage and the alternator field would be powered. The output
> of the alternator would be fed to the battery pack. One of the last
> times Rod mentioned it on the EVDL someone asked if it wasn't
> something that could be made available by custom order. This also
> sounds like another product opportunity for someone to hook up with a
> local alternator rebuilding shop and make these up to order. A
> handful of custom brackets to fit common EV motors would cover most users.
>
> 3. A range extending generator directly generating the dc juice in a
> way that I would only have to hook it up to my batteries.
>
> Again, we have had folks so this. Perhaps all we need is
> someone who has to create a "kit" that is really not much more than a
> shopping list and assembly instructions. Add prefab brackets made by
> say a local welding shop, the fasteners and connectors, and instant
> kit. Not quite a turn key drop in solution, but still much simpler
> than creating the whole thing from scratch.
>
> 4. A (configurable) converter that would allow me to use my dash
> board instruments i.e. for state of charge.
>
> This is one I mentioned a couple of times. I thought
> perhaps an interface could be created to read the output from an
> E-meter serial port and convert the bar count, 0-6, into a signal to
> drive the stock fuel gauge. I don't really know as this would be
> enough resolution though. Victor has mentioned a alternative to the
> E-meter that he sells or will be selling that includes the ability to
> drive the stock fuel gauge. For those with E-meters, has anyone
> looked into creating a circuit to do this?
>
> All of these ideas sound reasonable and might make a nice project to
> generate some money for a qualified EVer, though they would require
> some up front investment and development. Bringing any of them to
> the limited market of EVs is not going to make anyone rich, but over
> time it should probably be enough to do better than break even.
>
> I know it is a poor comparison, but when I wanted to mark my Civic
> conversion as an electric car in an attractive manner, I found no one
> offered a label or logo to do this. I searched the Internet and
> found a company that could make such a label. The problem was they
> had a minimum order of 500 units, plus a fee to create the initial
> molds. I took a chance, had them make up the mold, and bought 500
> units. I have been selling them through the 'Net and through several
> of the EV parts suppliers for about 6 years now. I only average
> about 10-20 per month, but they sell well enough that I have had to
> reorder them several times.
>
> It seems to me that most of these needs could be handled in a similar
> fashion if someone wants to step up to the plate. If I had the time
> and expertise I would probably give at least one of these a shot.
>
> Maybe the big question is, what would folks be willing to pay for
> each of these items, and how many would sell? Should we take a poll
> and find out?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 04:39 PM 27/05/06 +0100, Nikki wrote:
I'm really interested in this discussion since my car will probably
retain the gearbox (as is in the current plans).
G'day Nikki, and all
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/4429/cl3.htm shows a series of
'photos for a clutchless adaptor. This is very similar to what I have done
with my Daihatsu (not yet on the road).
Click "back to homepage" at the bottom of the page, takes you to a
description of his vehicle, etc.
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Michaela and all,
Michaela Merz wrote:
I would like to see/buy a (configurable) converter that would allow
me to use my dash board instruments i.e. for state of charge.
Mike Chancey wrote:
This is one I mentioned a couple of times. I thought perhaps an
interface could be created to read the output from an E-meter serial
port and convert the bar count, 0-6, into a signal to drive the stock
fuel gauge.
This is something I've been looking into as well... In fact, I really
wanted to use the stock instrument cluster in my JeepEV to read things
like pack voltage, current, SOC. I never followed through with this,
mainly because after doing some research I had some concerns about how
feasible it would be to build such an 'interface' due to the following
issues:
1.) There appears to be no standard input method for driving automotive
gauges. Depending on the car's make and model, the gauges could be
driven directly by a voltage, by a frequency, or through an external
reference to some positive source or ground. Worse yet, even a single
instrument cluster can contain gauges that work from different input
sources.
2.) Stock gauges may not be accurate enough. My Jeep, as well as other
vehicles I've seen, use cheap "bi-metal" type gauges for everything but
the speedometer and Tach. These gauges aren't terribly accurate, and
AFAIK their readings drift with temperature.
3.) Stock gauges might have too slow of a response time. Although this
wouldn't necessarily be a problem for a SOC measurement, it could be a
huge problem when trying to read fluctuating voltages and currents in an EV.
The main point here is that, while an interface could be made, it would
likely be very difficult to make it a drop in device for any vehicle and
not be really expensive. However, you've helped renew my interest in
such an interface. When I get some time I'll have to sit down with my
Atmel programmer and some of the gauges I still have and see what gives :-)
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Bearden wrote:
<SNIP>
. Is anything out there now in the 60 pound/Group 31 size that
people are using for street EVs? It is the only thing that I can
see making a configuration like this one work well enough to be fun
to drive, and have decent range.
Michael I am in the same boat myself. My I built my EV it was
originally equipped with 26 Delphi 12 Volt AGMs from the EV1
program. When these failed I redesigned it to use 13 group 31
Dynasty DCS-100L UPS batteries. After several years of using used
ones and replacing a few every few months, I finally broke down and
bought a brand new set. These are now acting weak and they are only
7 months old. Range is dropping off and they are really sagging
under load. I have switched the Auburn to econo mode, 340 Amps max
motor current which really takes quite a bit of the fun out. I am
hoping it is only one sick puppy, but so far it seems to be all of
them going bad at once.
I was kind of looking back at my various past EVs, and all except the
Solectrias had flooded batteries. The TEVan was ni-cad but the rest
were lead acid. I really don't want to switch the Civic to floodies,
but I want more than 25 mile range and I don't want to buy batteries
twice a year. 13 Dynasties weight about 936 pounds, the 26 Delphis
weighed 1144 pounds, so I am looking at a battery pack of 900-1200
pounds, 156 Volts nominal, and if I want a real world range of 50
miles, a capacity of about 80-90 Ah at the the one hour rate.
The Universal UB121100 batteries that Cor is using look like a good
option, but Cor's truck is 312 Volts, so I suspect they never see
current much over 100 Amps. How well they would do under 500-600
Amps I don't know, and frankly, how long they will last is a complete unknown.
Another option might be the group 31 Deka Intimidator AGMs, though
the range would not be as good. They are rate 100 Ah at the 20 hour
rate, and weigh 68.5 pounds. There is one EV in the Album with them
but it is still under construction. Is anyone else using them in an
EV? How well are they holding up?
The other day I asked about the Trojan T-1275 batteries, but nobody
commented. These are 12 Volt, 150 Ah at the 20 hour rate, and I am
guessing they would deliver something around 85 Ah at EV use
levels. 13 of them would weigh in at 1105 pounds, and would require
a complete redesign of my EV and reprogramming of my charger. If
after all that, they happily pushed it down the road for 4 or 5
years, I think it would be worth it, but I am sure my Civic would
feel much more doggy, and I had gotten rather used to sealed batteries.
So, what other options are out there? Yes, a string of Lithiums
would be sweet, but I need an affordable choice. I really don't want
to go double string again, and fitting 26 Orbitals or Optimas may not
be possible at all.
Anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 03:53 PM 27/05/06 -0700, Jeff Shanab wrote:
<snip>
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/adaptors.shtml
vs
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00061.jpg (looks huge but that button
flywheel attached is only 5.5" dia, I trimmed off the gear teeth
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00067.jpg
http://cvevs.jfs-tech.com/dsc00071.jpg here it is on the warp 9
G'day all
Now I understand the need to use a puller to get off the taperlock! All the
ones I've seen here have 2 or 3 screws to pull up the center into the body,
by having a step in the body and a thread in the bush. To get them off, you
pull the clamping screws, put one or two of the into two other holes that
have the thread in the other part. I'm guessing they are Fenner or under
licence to fenner (unless their patent has run out) since the installation
instructions:
http://www.fptgroup.com/downloads/installation_instructions.pdf look
exactly like the ones I've used. Also they have bolt-on hubs that look like
they may be good for flywheel mounts:
http://www.fptgroup.com/downloads/taperlock_hubs-adaptors.pdf
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Speaking of costs for converters, what is a ball park figure, Lee?
The reason I ask:
dog == me
bone == super caps
gnaw == gnaw
I saw in the archives where Victor would happily sell someone a Brusa
bidirectional DC-DC power converter suitable for inclusion of super caps;
Solectria, before being bought by Azure Dynamics sold a BDC; one might
assume that a similar product is being used internally with Azure Electric
Power Trains that include super caps (for Purolator, USPS, etc.); and, those
people in the white coats, the ones that button in the front, talking about
fuel cell drive trains.
Sincerely,
babe == me
woods == buck-boost, half bridge, full bridge, soft switches, etc., etc.,
etc
lost == Not a Clue
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
IN my case, which is unfortunate. I wish i had a clutch. With lower voltage
systems, the motor just does not spin as fast to be able to be driven in say
2nd of 3rd gear. I usually styart in 3rd gear, cause my gearbox won't allow
changes while driving, it crunches. It is a fully synchro'd box, but you
know Fiats'
2nd gear would be awesome around town or up to 60 km/hr, with very little
current draw. Good for starting off and driving. If only i had a 96 or 120
volt system. I am only running 72 volts and when the batteries are around
70% SOC driving in any gear other than 3rd is tiresome.
If i had 96 volts, or even 120 volts, i could drive around town in 2nd and
only change to 3rd for highways. Yeah it might be spinning at around
5500-6000 but i have experienced that its better to keep the current draw
down as low as possible on these flooded lead acids, especially the cheaper
marine deep cycles because the Peukert's exponent is high and hence you
don't want to start drawing large currents otherwise your avail capacity
goes down too much.
So unless you have a 72 volt pack or lower, but with stiffer batteries that
can handle high currents, then go clutchless. But i think for efficient
driving for lower capacity batteries, go clutched.
I did some analysis however, that driving with current draw or around 80Amps
on my 6.7 K series motor was more efficient (by 8%) than driving in second
gear at the same speed with only 60 amp draw.
So there is a compromise...
Cheers
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: clutch or clutchless
Date: Sun, 28 May 2006 06:14:22 +1000
Hi all,
Clutchless works for me.
I have a Ford Sierra 5sp manual gearbox in my electric Clubman.
Changing from 4th to 5th at 80km/h takes about 0.5 - 1.5 secs.
(No good for drag racing, but fine for cruising around town.)
Sometimes it doesn't change cleanly into reverse.
I need to put a little pressure on the gear stick and tap the throttle
for it to drop in.
The other thing to remember when deciding whether to clutch or not is
that compared to an ICE car, you hardly ever change gears in an EV.
Most of my driving around mildly hilly suburban streets is done in 4th
gear, and that includes starting.
What works for you will depend on the battery/controller/motor
combination that you choose.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of nikki
> Sent: Sunday, 28 May 2006 1:40 AM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: clutch or clutchless
>
>
> I'm really interested in this discussion since my car will probably
> retain the gearbox (as is in the current plans).
>
> The gearbox on my car has syncromesh on 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears, but
> none on first or reverse.
>
> My gear ratios are:
> First: 3.628:1
> Second 2.172:1
> Third 1.412:1
> Fourth 1:1
>
> Reverse: 4.664.1
>
> With a standard back differential giving 4.22:1 I'm interested to
> see how this would work clutchless since it's easier from a
> conversion point of view to not re-route the clutch actuator if I go
> for a left-hand drive conversion. (Part of my planned
> restoration and
> conversion is from RHD to LHD.)
>
> My own plans aside for a second though doesn't a lack of clutch
> lighten the whole system somewhat, thus leading to a more efficient
> system?
>
> Does anyone have example shift-times on non-clutched manual
> transmissons?
>
> Nikki
_________________________________________________________________
realestate.com.au: the biggest address in property
http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> The other day I asked about the Trojan T-1275 batteries, but nobody
> commented. These are 12 Volt, 150 Ah at the 20 hour rate, and I am
> guessing they would deliver something around 85 Ah at EV use
> levels.
Sorry, I meant to respond but forgot. The T1275 delivers 70-75Ah at
the 1hr rate. I haven't measured them (measurements ought to be on
Trojan's site anyway), but just eyeballing it, they appear to have about
the footprint of a Group 31, but the height of a T105.
Charge them like a T105. In theory they ought to last well, being built
with T105 plates.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John,
I honestly cannot say anything about routine high discharge
currents, as my car never draws more than 200A.
The three main reasons for me to select these batteries
were: price, being sealed and easy availability because
they are made in high quantity.
(These reasons only hold after I figured out that I wanted
one string rather than the common two strings in the
US Electricars, a recepe for disaster.)
I also wanted to prove that there are batteries from China
that do hold up well, although I also had some fears that
the experienced listers like Lee who had bad experiences
could be right.
But the UPG company seemed to be well in control of the
quality of their Chinese production, so I went with them
for the three reasons I mentioned earlier.
About cycle life: the engineer told me that the battery should
get between 300 and 500 full cycles.
Taking an average of 400 that would give me 24000 miles at my
60 miles max range estimate (I drove my truck with 26 UB121100
over 55 miles with power to spare).
With the estimated 8000 miles per year in commute and running
errands that should give ma about 3 years of pretty heavily
used battery life. At this price I am all for that.
Besides, these batteries are about 1/3 of the price of the
normal recommended EV batteries and I got a 1-year warranty
on the batteries, so I think I cannot lose on this deal....
BTW - the internal resistance of the UB121100 is spec'ed to be
4 milli-ohms, so when drawing 1000A you will sag them to 8V
or somewhere near that.
The power/time graph that the company provides in their specs
does not go to these currents, but it can be extrapolated,
assuming it is reasonably linear, and you will see that at
these currents you will only get a few minutes out of them.
Regards,
Cor.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of John Westlund
[SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Cc:
Subject: Re: Starting again...AGM question
Sent: 5/27/2006 6:16 AM
Importance: Normal
$85!!?
Those are as cheap as Trojans!
A 156V pack would weigh 950 pounds and deliver 12480 Wh at
the 1 hour rate. A highly efficient 130 wh/mile EV would get
100 miles range! A more realistic 200 wh/mile small EV would
get 60 miles range.
Do you know how well they hold up with routine high
discharge rates, like around 700+ amps? I know they're rated
at 720 CCA, which is pretty good.
Anything on cycle life?
Their published specs are here:
http://www.cetsolar.com/PDF/UB121100 (30H.pdf
If the manufacturer's specs are accurate, a Blue Meanie
style EV with high range could be built for roughly
$7,000-8,000, and have similar performance that the car is
reknown for. That would kick ass! I'd gladly build my
Triumph around a platform like that if the battery can take
the abuse.
Blue Meanie's 156V of Optimas allow what? 125 kW from the
battery side cranking out 1,000 amps and sagging to 9.6V?
At .004 ohms, these UB121100 batteries in theory would allow
98 kW assuming 13.6V coming off a full charge and limit to
700 amps? If they can take 1,000 amps regularly, power can
be upped to the level of the Optimas.
That would give comparable performance to Blue Meanie in a
car of similar weight.
Imagine a 2,400 pound conversion with the smallest Zilla
available, 9" WarP motor, and 156V pack of these batteries.
$7,000-8,000 conversion, with regs and PFC charger. 0-60 mph
about 6 seconds, top speed around 120 mph... And in a car
with aerodynamic modifications to high hell for 130 wh/mile
at 60 mph, 100 miles range to full discharge. That would
fucking rule!
So, are these batteries up to providing high power? What
about cycle life?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think the risk of losing some electrolyte - balanced against running them
with not enough covering the plates, (steam and explosions) is one worth
taking. I waited for the periodic overcharge that occurs automatically when
certain charge count is reached (happens about every tenth charge for me)
and I topped up with distilled water with 10 minutes of this finishing. I
have been monitoring for loss of electrolyte with 5 containers fixed on the
bottom of the chassis - so far no sign of any liquid at all.
My need now is to synchronise the actual empty state of the cells, to zero
on the energy meter since I can now run well below an indicated "0" without
the "low voltage" warning light illuminating. According to the "L'Insitut
Citroen" training manual for the Berlingo this would be zero'd on the
maintenance or initialisation charge, so I have figured a workaround and
shall be implementing it next week by discharging the cells directly to
1.1volts per cell, once the "indicated energy" reads zero.
Already after the watering I have noticed an improvement in range to an
achievable 60 - whereas before I struggled to get 50 miles - I put over 5
litres of distilled water in them.
John
----- Original Message -----
From: "Evan Tuer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 27, 2006 1:10 PM
Subject: Re: SAFT NiCds
On 5/27/06, John Luck Home <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello Philippe - I made an adaptor on the lathe and have topped up my
cells
now. I did a full charge first.
You should have done a maintenance charge first. Your cells are now
likely to overflow and lose electrolyte.
I guess my problem is resetting the zero
point on the Energy meter.
No, you need to zero the accumulated AH counter.
Its a shame PSA did not make some of the
servicing resets and charge initiation sequences available by a "coded"
pressing of certain switches instead of ELIT.
Evlite will be available from next week.
--
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.2/349 - Release Date: 26/05/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To begin with, I don't know of many "EV suppliers". GE, for example, sells all
sorts of
electrical parts, and electronics, but it is more of a supplier for houses and
commercial
companies, locomotives, etc.
Stefan is right that the EV "market" is like the early computer market. It is
more like
the very early computer market, though, of the 1950s or early 1960s.
Michaela is right though too. The EV "market" does not have RFC statements for
ISO
standards, which started in the late 1960s and 1970s. The standards
organizations defined
how things (could) work together. This standards definitions movement supported
development of Ethernet networks, TCP/IP, Unix and linux, etc, that makes the
internet as
it works today.
UL ratings, NEC standards, etc, do not work together just yet. I would like to
see a
bigger market for EV parts that would work with a variety of 'open systems'
designed
electric cars!
Down with proprietary systems in computers, and, in EVs.
Cars available to the public represent a proprietary system. There are by some
reports
about 800 million cars in the world, so Car Companies are selling cars, yes,
but with
rebates, and subsidies.GM has a bad situation. Ford is only slightly better
off. Both Car
Companies are still conglomerates in a global industry, though GM is selling
off shares of
Isuzu, opel, and EMD (the train locomotive branch), etc, to raise cash. The
cars sold are
mostly with gasoline engines or diesel, and use a diminishing fuel. I'm getting
off track
here for the original analogy, though.
Steve Love -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Stefan Peters wrote:
That sound *exactly* like the early computer industry!
Back then, most said those "silly gadgets" where just a waste of time &
money for a handful of academics and electronic buffs...
I certainly hope the comparison isn't silly, maybe just needs a bit of
temporal tuning. ;-)
~ Peanut Gallery ~
Michaela Merz wrote:
> It's just not the same situation as the budding PC industry (or C64
> industry or whatever). There you had common hardware and a potential
> userbase in the thousands at least. A more realistic comparison would
> be if everyone had built their own computers by hand, all with
> slightly different hardware architectures and memory layouts, even if
> using common components and doing the same job.
That was execatly how the computer industry started as 'real' computers
were expensive.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Interesting. I think the smaller one is the 6.2 volt one, it seems
> to dissipate a bit less heat than the big fat one. I potted both
> of the lugs; they seem to sink fairly well.
You can check the zener's chip temperature via its forward voltage drop
at some standard current. It falls 0.0022v per deg.C temperature
increase.
> I recommend putting the lugs into an oven at 120 degrees or so for an
> hour. It sets up the potting compound immediately; otherwise it takes
> about 2 days to set.
Interesting; I'll try it next time. I put the heatshrink on, poured the
potting in, then shrunk the tubing. The heat did make the potting
compound partially set faster, but it did take a full day to finish
setting.
> Lee, did my numbers look reasonable BTW?
I think so. I'll check when I get home. Note that the numbers change
with temperature, and thus are affected by the heatsinking.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> For a 6 V battery, I had a question regarding Lee's wiring
> description. "I suggested the same parts (two 6.2v zener diodes),
> but with *two* #PR2 lamps. Each lamp has a zener in series.
> This makes two parallel paths, so it shunts twice the current."
> Would that be like this?
> battery + -----|<----lightbulb-----|<----- - battery
> L_lightbulb_J
No. One zener and one lamp in series, wired across the 6v battery. Use
two such regulators across each battery. Physically, you'd put one zener
in the ring terminal on the + battery terminal, and the other zener in
the ring terminal on the - battery terminal. Like this:
__
negative_____|\|________/ \_____________
terminal | |/| \__/ #PR2 |
| 6.8v __ lamp |
|_____________/ \________|\|__|__ positive
#PR2 \__/ |/| terminal
lamp 6.8v
The 6.8v zener is a good first guess. If that lets the voltage get too
high (gel cells, for instance) try a 6.2v instead.
--
Ring the bells that you can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in
-- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart 814 8th Ave N Sartell MN 56377
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On her maiden day of travelling the Electrabishi went 12.8 miles. I found
immediately that the stock clutch will not be adequate. Limiting motor
volts to 150V current to 150A barely prevents (clutch) slipping from a stop
in 2nd, and 35mph in 3rd. This by the way allows accelerating performance to
exactly what I observed with the ICE. This will be OK for the first week of
getting me to work as a fair break in period is in order. I'll definitely
be looking at some of those prerformance clutch plates mentioned earlier on
this list. Even though I couldn't get the majority of the power to the
wheels I definitely caught one of those contagious EV Grins you guys keep
talking about. A little cosmetic work and weatherization will be the next
phase of this project. Some pics of the progress so far at
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756. Thanks to all those on this list from
whom I've read very useful information. The breadth of experience and
responsiveness of this list is tremendous.
I'm already booked to display at the 2nd Annual Alaska Renewable Energy Fair
here in anchorage on August 12th. Any comments on what people like to see
most when you're showing off the EV?
Thanks
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't know about amps, but according to a document I found on a Toyota web
site, the AC runs on 201 volts DC. (off the main pack, not the inverter)
My source was a document, published by Toyota, for crash rescue teams. Very
interesting read, as it not only includes a lot of Prius Hybrid system info,
it also talks about various techniques for peeling the roof away in case of
an accident. Maybe it's my morbid curiosity...
I'm sorry I don't have the URL, but if you google on Prius Air Conditioning
you should be able to find it like I did. I read it in the last couple of
weeks, and it did have www.toyota in the URL, so I trusted the information.
SInce I only have a 112V pack, my question is: how low can the voltage be
for one of these to work?
Regards, Jim
----- Original Message -----
From: "Brad Baylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, April 27, 2006 11:27 PM
Subject: Prius air-conditioning
> The Toyota Prius has all electric AC from the 2004 year on. I noticed
> on car-part.com you can get a Prius compressor, evaporator and
> condensor for about $800 from various salvage yards. Does anyone have
> specifics on what voltage the compressor motor is and how many amps?
> It the motor/compressor integrated as a sealed unit like home ACs? And
> what other parts might be needed to make it work in a conversion? Any
> relevant web pages?
>
> Brad Baylor
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> > is there a reason to go with the higher (or a pair?) of zeners?
>
> I used a pair because two 5w zeners are cheaper than a 10w
> zener. Also, I could put one in each battery terminal, to
> split the heat between them rather than concentrating it
> all at one point. Also (I never do anything for one reason
> :-) because the temperature coefficient of zeners around
> 7v is roughly zero.
Excellent. Thanks again Lee.
Cheers,
Claudio
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----Original Message Follows----
From: Puester <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Honda Insight
Date: Fri, 26 May 2006 13:10:30 -0600
At 02:49 PM 5/25/2006, you wrote:
> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12860428/
>
> The article said that Honda sold only 666 Insights in 2005. I wonder
> why sales were so low? Sales of this car ought to be brisk with
> gasoline prices so high and the widespead revulsion of SUVs and
> other gas guzzlers. Were sales so low because customers didn't
> want Insights or did Honda Motor Company only produce a few
> hundred per year?
When I had my Honda Accord ICE in for regular service last week I asked a
salesperson about the Insight.
He said: "Oh, we don't stock those, they're special order only. Whgat else
can I show you?" End of discussion.
I have no idea if that's SOP for all dealerships or just mine, but that's NO
WAY to drum up interest or sell a car!
gloria p
Same here (Baltimore). We just bought a new CR-V to replace one a kid ran
in the back of and totaled. While shopping, I asked about the Insight and
was told the same thing. Not stocked, would have to order one. A two
seater won't work for me, so I didn't press it. Am holding out for the Fit
hybrid, due out next year.
Dave
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This sounds like just about what I would specify/choose for a
combination of decent range and acceleration. I wonder if it can be
ordered with automotive style posts?
I got the new donor car today, it is an '84 318i with a perfect body and
new paint, working sunroof, and decent interior, sitting right next to
poor dead WATTABMR.
It looks to me like everything that I used in converting WATTABMR will
switch over, including tires, brakes (which were new when the wreck
occured), heavy duty suspension parts, etc. The transmission is the
same, so I can leave the motor-adaptor-transmission assembled together,
as they have been very happy working together. The heater was one of
the most difficult parts of the conversion...so I am glad to have that
as a "black box" now, to be swapped over as a unit. All of my gauges,
the motor mount, the mounting and reserve tank for the vacuum pump, the
front-to-back wiring, etc are all there. I do mourn for my new Zilla,
PFC charger, and a whole set of new regs...along with my Fluke 77 and
two other VOMs that were in the Porsche...and the first good sound
system I have had in a EV.
Oh well, by the time I have this ready for batteries, Rich and Joe will
probably have made further mods and improvements on regs and chargers,
and I do have some other parts lying around that I can use...
I had to make up new racks each time I changed battery types, so that is
not going to be a great big deal for me. This will probably come back
to haunt me, but it seems like this might be the easiest EV I have put
together...check back with me in a few months and see if I still think that!
Thanks, EV friends!
Michael B.
Cor van de Water wrote:
Michael,
Good that you are selling WATTABMR, as I found out that
my time is really very limited (and the BMW that I bought
to convert is still in daily use).
My battery of choice has been the UB121100, which is
supposed to be a group 30 battery.
It weighs 70 lbs (my measurement)
and is 12V 110Ah (at 20h discharge) while the
specs say 80Ah in 1h discharge and I got close to that
value when testing it.
Cold cranking amps are 720 so it can sustain a decent
discharge, although I never draw more than 200A from it
in my 312V AC system.
My main reason to buy it though is that it was extremely
cheap for an AGM battery, as it is in use in high volume
in industry. So I got a deal for $85 per battery after
combining my order and two other EV'ers.
Let me know if you have more questions,
Cor.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jim Siebert wrote:
I don't know about amps, but according to a document I found on a Toyota web
site, the AC runs on 201 volts DC.
<SNIP>
SInce I only have a 112V pack, my question is: how low can the voltage be
for one of these to work?
The 2006 Civic Hybrid shows a dual compressor system, one driven by
the engine, the other by the 158 Volt battery pack. Sound like this
might be of possible use in an EV conversion.
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
