EV Digest 5538
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: [seva] My response to Forbes article on Plug-In Hybrids
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: PiPrius ...
by "mike young" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) ASTEC power supply as dc-dc
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Voltage limit on the Zilla
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Aftermarket GEM Doors
by "J Mac" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Comparison
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
7) Re: PiPrius ...
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Voltage limit on the Zilla
by Otmar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Comparison
by "Lewis, Brian K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Aftermarket GEM Doors
by "Shawn M. Waggoner \(EVDL\)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: ASTEC power supply as dc-dc
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Lotsa questions
by "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Soild state relays
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Range/Capacity Check
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Soild state relays
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Range/Capacity Check
by MIKE & PAULA WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Voltage for a regen alternator
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: $67K for a RAV4 EV?!
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Joe Sixpack Metro NEV - first stumbling block
by Darin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Soild state relays
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Soild state relays
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Soild state relays
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) suspension mods
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Soild state relays
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Soild state relays
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: Voltage for a regen alternator
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
28) Re: Soild state relays
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
29) Re: Voltage for a regen alternator
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
30) Re: Lotsa questions
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
31) Re: Comparison
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Well put Rod.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
Manufacturer of PiPrius kits.
And yes you can recharge them in 25 Minutes flat.
Care to Watch??
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 8:15 AM
Subject: [seva] My response to Forbes article on Plug-In Hybrids
>
> Hi All,
>
> Some of you may find this of interest. Here is my response to this
article
> in Forbes titled "The Frankenstein Hybrid":
> http://www.forbes.com/2006/05/26/toyota-prius-hybrid-cx_jf_0530flint.html
>
> Dear Mr. Flint,
>
> I see that you have been an automotive columnist for many years. It
> therefore bothers me that you did not do your homework and took Toyota's
> word in the following statement: "{Toyota knows more about hybrids than
> anyone does, so I asked about plug-ins. Here is the official statement:
> "With today's latest technology, a plug-in HV [hybrid vehicle] is not
> commercially and technologically feasible." I have found Toyota's word is
> golden on stuff like this.}" Not only are they technologically feasible,
> Daimler/Chrysler has been building them since 2004. There have been many
of
> these here in the US for the past two years in customer trials in fleets.
> Please read the following link.
>
http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom/0-5-7179-1-428612-1-0-0-0-0-0-8668-7165-0-0-0-0-0-0-0.html
> Toyota has a slight problem from a marketing perception. They originally
> touted that with the Prius you did not have to plug it in. It was a huge
> campaign. My advice to Toyota would be to say,"Now you can plug it in if
you
> wish but you still don't have to."
>
> Roderick Wilde
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this outgoing message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.7.4/351 - Release Date: 5/29/2006
>
>
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> Visit the SEVA website at http://www.seattleeva.org
> If you wish to unsubscribe from this mailing, send mail to
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of: unsubscribe seva
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I hope you guys get it figured out, me and probly alot of others would love
to put a kit on out prii. i think your on the other coast though.im in ny
Mike young
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, May 30, 2006 1:40 PM
Subject: PiPrius ...
Well my life has been Ryan's Prius.. and any others I can get my hands
on..
It's been weeks now that I have spent my weekends hacking and wiring Prii.
Yesterday was no different.. Except that we got 30 miles of road time on
it. So.. progress is being made.
The kit efforts are coming along, the bent metal for the box should be
here this week, Hopefully tomorrow.
Ryan got his Canbuss unit back and we added it back into the car.. The
charger needs some control from the Can computer to keep the CCL and SOC
within the range that lets us run the best in EV mode or Stealth mode.
We tried to run with just the charger doing the Voltage Dither with the
charger's own Dumb as a BOX of Rocks controller. A half dozen timers
setpoints and voltage regulation circuits... is not very dumb... In fact
it makes for a simple analog computer. That's why we still use it! Any
ways.. what we needed was a peak of 242 volts and a restart at 228 volts..
The PFC charger's brains can handle that without any Canbuss computer
involved. We tested the idea and it does work.. but the CCL which is the
Prius's own track of how hard it can regen at any given time just can't
stay high with this programming, The engine did start.. Bummer!.
Then we use relay #5 on the Canbuss computer, and programmed it to turn on
the charger at %60 SOC and off at %70 SOC. This got us a couple of miles
of EV mode running. But getting the circuits to work was a pain...Until I
found a Loose screw.. these always are fun... Then we had a relay #5 that
actually did something.
A word to the wise.. here..even with my charger unplugged... NO AC the
charger was NOT even power from the Add on Battery.. We had 45 volts of AC
noise between the CAN buss Ground and the Chassis of the PFC and the
Prius... This is LOTS of volts.. with every little current. The offending
cable was tied to the Can buss with about 10 feet of cable.. and the Can
buss Relays are simple SpSt contacts. So how the Noise was getting onto
the cable is beyond me.. We think it was from the Prius's 12 volt DC to
DC. Clearly this messes up any hope of using voltage level signaling. The
grounds were just not going to come close. The line was to be run into the
PFC charger system using the Temp sensor on a Mark2B Regulator. If you
simple short or close the two pins you will get the charger to shut down
on about 1 second. Just the place to add a computer controlled input.
Yea...Right...simple... except for the ground loops and Raises. So.. we
found a Reed relay and then wired up a 12 volt !
feed that uses the House 12 volts and is switched through the Can buss
relays and that pulls in the relay that shorts the pins on the Reg...that
is connected to the Charger...but the Reg buss cables. A house of wires..
But... it worked.
This addition gave us enough control of the charging process to keep
the CCL high enough to allow continued running in EV mode.
With the voltage high and lows being set to 242 on the high side and with
the charger's timer set to 15 minutes.. so the charger has hang time once
the Hybrid battery gets full. Then when the SOC come up with the voltage
held high... the Can Buss computer shuts off the charger, until the SOC
then drops back to the low set %. This was the point that we kept
adjusting to get more and more run time.
We spent the morning messing with the relays and our stupidity..and loose
screws.. We got about 2.5 miles and many hours of sitting with the car on,
but not moving, Charged up... then went for a longer ride, and got 8 miles
and a good hard charge from 15 amps of 208. By the next late run at about
8 pm I had the 30 amps of 240 cable strung out to the Prius... and a LARGE
AC feed wired into the Add on pack's wire bundle.. For some Madman level
charging.. When you actually get the Plug in pack drained....of course you
wan to charge it as FAST as you can... Of course is there any Other way??
With 32 amps of 230 flowing into the PFC40H... we got with the charge
program with some vengeance!! The last charge cycle was 25 minutes... and
we had more charger if we could have cooled it better... most of the hot
air was being recirculated inside of the Prius's left rear quarter
pannel.. it was quite warm to the touch!! Still we managed to suck 28 grid
amps for most of the cycle. With!
out any SOC meters on the addon pack.. we had to watch the batteries
pretty closely.. aka Ryan and Rich Regs..But it looks like we took on
about 3.5Kwhr in about 25 minutes. Not bad for the first real try at a
decent fast charge effort. I didn't reach for the nearest PFC50 and NO I
did not cable in the 75K, But that's still to come !!
While driving.. .it looks like a 30 amp power transfer is Adequate for in
town driving... and light running. 40 amps or more would be nice for doing
highway speeds. and Twice we could have used a LOT of regen to yank off a
over charge condition of the Hybrid pack. We could have gotten a little
more out of the system.. but all in all NOT too bad. We need to get the
"Regen" mode working and see if we can really effect the CCL when a fairly
large regen event happens. What happens is the Hybrid pack gets full
since we are propping it up with the charger, then we find a longer hill
or a hard braking event, When the Hybrid pack is already full, you have to
use the main brakes.. and this is the crime, by this time the add on pack
is really getting hungry and could take a couple of Kwhr...If we could
move it that fast.
Most of our running was at over 100 mpg, we pegged at 255 mpg once or
twice, did a run that got us 180 mpg.. but adding up the runs and getting
a solid trip MPG was almost impossible with the meters we had.
But... clearly it was way over 100 mpg...How far over we don't know yet.
With a Lead Acid pack .. we have 30 miles in a day done electric..In a
hybrid. This would not be possible with a lower powered charger. Again I
am pointing out the facts..if you don't have a lot of capacity, then
having a high speed charger can make up for that. A 7200 watt charger is
still LOTS cheaper than a $40K Lion pack.. and it can give you the same or
more real EV range.
Charge over night if you have to Charge as hard and fast as can, to get
the most from your equipment investment.
Ohyea.... we will have a AC line current meter available in our chargers
shortly. We can stuff it in there. But it's taking a Sheet metal up
grade.It's going into the PFC40H for hybrid conversions, where meters are
in short supply.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
PiPrius Kit builder
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Below is a link to the data sheet for an ASTEC power supply. Does the LPS23
look like it would
work as a dc-dc? I realize it's a little limited (3.3 amps), but could it be
used for a device
that just needs a good 12v supply?
Thanks
Dave Cover
http://astec.com/products/datasheets/lp/lps25.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the 156V version of the Zilla controller
in my 144V truck. Is there any problem leaving the
hairball energized while charging? The finish voltage
is ~186V depending on the temperature. The reason I'm
asking is I need to run a 12V blower to keep the
PFC-20 cool if I want to charge at anything over
18amps. To do this I'd need to keep the DC-DC running.
It's currently relay controlled by the ignition. The
easy way out would be to turn on the key to energize
the DC-DC and turn the blower on. I suppose I could
add a toggle switch somewhere and run 12V to the DC-DC
control relay independently of the ignition...
At home I use a 12V supply running off of 120V AC
to power the blower. Cranking 30A into the pack sure
makes for shorter charging times.
TiM
'61 Corvair Rampside
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looking for a pair of GEM doors with roll down windows.
Preferably hard doors, not the soft ones.
They're for an '02 2-door.
Suggestions where to find them?
Thanks!
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
One reasonably short answer.
The recent Popular Mechanics article compares a late 1990s Honda EV Plus to
various gas and alternative fuel vehicles (see page 6).
_http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y_
(http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y)
The paper copy has a great chart on ~ page 79 showing the EV Plus using a
gasoline of 202 MPG
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Great progress Rich. The thing to watch out for is making sure that
charging the Prius pack past 235v is done only with the Prius running.
If the cooling fan cannot run, cooking of the Nimh modules is real easy.
Excellent point about using a pfc and a lead acid pack being way
cheaper than Lion. For my all electric vehicle it might be worth doing
the same thing. Putting a pile of batts in the bed or on a trailer of
some voltage and use a pfc to charge it while driving extra long
distances. That way if the add-on pack is a different voltage or soc
it won't matter.
Mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have the 156V version of the Zilla controller
in my 144V truck. Is there any problem leaving the
hairball energized while charging? The finish voltage
is ~186V depending on the temperature. The reason I'm
asking is I need to run a 12V blower to keep the
PFC-20 cool if I want to charge at anything over
18amps. To do this I'd need to keep the DC-DC running.
It's currently relay controlled by the ignition. The
easy way out would be to turn on the key to energize
the DC-DC and turn the blower on. I suppose I could
add a toggle switch somewhere and run 12V to the DC-DC
control relay independently of the ignition...
At home I use a 12V supply running off of 120V AC
to power the blower. Cranking 30A into the pack sure
makes for shorter charging times.
TiM
'61 Corvair Rampside
Hi Tim
No Problem. With the main contactor off you are good to over 400V.
It's best that you have it set up with a "Start" input independent of
the "Key", so you can turn the key on without the precharge starting
and making the controller "hot".
Even with the contactor on you are safe to over 200V, but it may not
drive at that voltage.
hth,
--
-Otmar-
914 EV, California Poppy,
http://evcl.com/914/
http://www.CafeElectric.com/
The Zilla factory has moved to Corvallis Oregon.
Now accepting resumes. Please see:
http://www.cafeelectric.com/jobs.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Did you notice the image suggest all the power for the EV Plus comes
from Coal!
- Brian
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 2:31 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Comparison
One reasonably short answer.
The recent Popular Mechanics article compares a late 1990s Honda EV Plus
to
various gas and alternative fuel vehicles (see page 6).
_http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y_
(http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y)
The paper copy has a great chart on ~ page 79 showing the EV Plus using
a
gasoline of 202 MPG
Mike Bachand
Denver Electric Vehicle Council
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have not used these doors, but this company specializes in a lot of GEM
after market products: http://www.ride-4-fun.com/gem-car-doors-hard.html
There is also NEV Accessories in AZ; they have a ton of stuff for GEM's:
http://www.nevaccessories.com/Products/wp_Enclosure.htm
Good luck!
Shawn Waggoner
Florida EAA
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of J Mac
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 3:18 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Aftermarket GEM Doors
Looking for a pair of GEM doors with roll down windows.
Preferably hard doors, not the soft ones.
They're for an '02 2-door.
Suggestions where to find them?
Thanks!
_________________________________________________________________
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE!
http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yep according to that data sheet it will run on DC. (Most switchers will
since the first thing they do is convert the AC to DC.)
Later,
Wire
From: Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: "[email protected]" <[email protected]>
Subject: ASTEC power supply as dc-dc
Date: Wed, 31 May 2006 11:40:32 -0700 (PDT)
Below is a link to the data sheet for an ASTEC power supply. Does the LPS23
look like it would
work as a dc-dc? I realize it's a little limited (3.3 amps), but could it
be used for a device
that just needs a good 12v supply?
Thanks
Dave Cover
http://astec.com/products/datasheets/lp/lps25.pdf
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi,
Been lurking on EVDL for sometime and need some guidance.
Have had several ev's in recent years, a couple Gizmos, a C-car, a Mazda
conversion and co-own 13 Elcars (I know, it is a sickness!)
Anyway, I just bought a 1987 S10 that was converted by the local electric
utility in the mid '90s with a US Solar conversion kit. It has a 9" ADC and a
Curtis 1231. They had many problems with battery chargers. It was run at 120v
with 20-6v batteries. The efficiency was miserable, being 800-1000wh/mile.
They had three trucks that were converted, 2 with standard transmissions and
one which was an automatic. Of course, I have bought the one with the
automatic. It was cheap and I am happy to have the components for the little I
paid for it. I believe it runs. It will arrive this week.
Here are my questions:
Does anyone know how they did the automatic trans? I would like to tweak this
vehicle as much as possible and am wondering about replacing the trans with a
standard. Wondering about mating the ADC directly to the differential as an
alternative. Maybe the current configuration is okay???
Am wondering if the poor efficiency was due to the crappy chargers they were
using. They are not labeled except for one with a US Solar label. I know that
they did not manufacture these.
They failed with great regularity. I have many dead units that came with the
truck.
I have a bunch (several hundred) new Nicad wet cells, most of them rated at
100ah 1.2V. Am planning to remove the bed and build a rack on the chassis (the
nicads are about 16" high) and then rebuilding a lighter bed with a wood deck
(pressure treated 5/4) and plastic sides.
What is the parasitic load of the power steering and the power brakes on the
entire system?
Am considering undoing them and running strong arm and legged.
OR I could put this running gear into a smaller vehicle. I am partial to the
S10 for a lot of reasons, not the least of which is using it on a local TV
program I host.
Last thought, I love contactor controllers, have made a bunch of them. I like
the idea of being able to jerry-rig a control if something breaks, but it never
does. Cannot say that about Curtises. Have been pondering the efficiency of a
good electronic DC controller vs. contactors.
That's enough.
Thanks for reading.
Tom Gocze
Stockton Springs, Maine
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Is there a reason not to use solid state relays in an EV? I saw some Solid
State Relays, 240V, 10A
and didn't know if they would be appropriate. It looks like they are made by
Opto 22, part#
240d10. 3-32vdc control. Maybe to control ceramic heaters or something.
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I agree about the overly complicated and shady service practices.
When I went to the ford dealer for a part to fix my aunt's older ford,
I was coming out of the parts department empty handed because I could
buy timing gears but they didn't sell timing chains, I would have to buy
them after market, I guess 1998 is just too old.
The whole thing had failed because of an extreemly stupid and obvious
design flaw (the timing gear was held on to the end of the cam by a bolt
thru a washer, the washer is over 1.5" diameter and spans, unsupported,
the 3/4" deep dimple in the gear, the head of the bolt popped off and
fell into the chain works.....)
Anyway I was approached buy a few salesman who wanted to know if I was
interested in buying car and I said I would buy one of those new
mustangs if they could get me CAD drawings of the drive train and the
source code for the computer. They caught me on a bad day. Prior to
going in, I had just helped my neighbor reset his computer so it would
turn on the alternator, he had changed the battery a few times and then
the alternator and was asking to borrow the charger again when I asked
him had he told the computer he changed the battery? He was not ammused.
Recent escapades like this on working on newer cars has really
solidified my belief in EV's
Ironically, my EV is down. Because of the rarity of EV's, I couldn't
just go buy parts, I need to plan for having some spares around here.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If I consider the $10K I spent on the conversion a sunk cost (as I would
probably have spent $10K on a nice used car to drive anyway) then I guess the
$967 annual savings is significant. But if I want to prove that just doing a
conversion will pay for itself in a reasonable time like 5 years, I'm affraid I
failed on this attempt. 10 years to payback only if you don't consider
maintenance and batteries over that time...longer if you do. I like the first
thought, consider the $10K the cost of transportation and argue the operating
cost is much less.
Mike
----- Original Message -----
From: David Roden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 5:14 am
Subject: Re: Range/Capacity Check
To: [email protected]
> On 30 May 2006 at 21:58, Mike & Paula Willmon wrote:
>
> > I get a savings of $967 annually
> > if the price of gas and electricity stay the same. If it weren't
> for the EV
> > Grin it would take a federal tax incentive to really make all
> this worth the
> > effort.
>
> I'm confused. $967 per year isn't worth the effort? That's
> almost 10 grand
> over 10 years. With reasonable care, your EV driveline should
> last that
> long or longer.
>
> In actuality though the savings will be less when you figure
> battery
> amortization. In most cases this is the largest single cost of
> operating an
> EV. If you use the most inexpensive (per mile) batteries and
> treat them
> well, you can definitely beat the cost of an ICE, though I don't
> think it
> will be by anything close to a grand a year.
>
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EV List Assistant Administrator
>
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Dave Cover wrote:
> Is there a reason not to use solid state relays in an EV? I saw some
> Solid State Relays, 240V, 10A and didn't know if they would be
> appropriate. It looks like they are made by Opto 22, part# 240d10.
> 3-32vdc control. Maybe to control ceramic heaters or something.
Almost all solid state relays switch AC only, and won't work on DC. They
use triacs or SCRs as their switching devices. So, they would work for
AC switching, like turning the charger on/off. They depend on the the AC
line voltage automatically crossing zero to turn off. On DC, they will
turn on but won't turn off.
Well... there is a way to use these AC-only relays to switch DC. Use one
to turn the load on. It will *latch* on and won't turn off. Then use a
second one with a large capacitor in series to short out the first one
and thereby switch it off. Then the capacitor will charge up, and the
second one turns off too.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I guess I need to look at the code again, I thought I remember it saying
something about it being a new vehicle. This would require me re-registering
the truck as a "new" electric vehicle manufactured by Me. Its certainly worth
a check to see how easy that will be where I live. Then the next question is
how long can you take the credit before the vehicle is not "new" anymore?
Certainly not paying IM does go in the benefit category too.
Mike
Tim Humphrey wrote:
> You do realize that you qualify for the federal tax credits, right?
> --
> Stay Charged!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello:
Just a question: If I would find somebody to rewind an alternator for use
as a regen system, what kind of an alternator should I use? Should it be
wound for exactly the pack voltage? What kind of diodes (and other parts)
would I have to use to get the alternators ac to the needed dc?
Thanks for your answers.
mm.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Example -- I am currently working on a 2001 chev impala, the interior lights
headlights and dash are all acting erraticly, the problem is the body
control
module is bad, the dealer has plenty in stock ( guess why) BUT, I cant
install it because it has a one time only programmable chip that the VIN
needs to be entered into or it wont work. So now you can see that not only
is
this a dealer only operation , but aslo you can not use a wrecking yard part
in the future!!!
Don Cook
It looks to me like someone aught to sue. Seems something like this is
abnormal money lust and needs to be beat down. It's also one of the reasons
electric cars were crushed. Not enough opportunity for service. Lawrence
Rhodes...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
my Cousin (that has
a Metro he wants to convert) was just here. "Joe Sixpack" describes him
well, and he too has a used forklift motor he wants to use.
I think we started this project around the same time you first described
your cousin's possible Metro conversion on the EVDL this winter.
Similar situation here: same host car, same motor source, so we adopted
the nickname. :)
What is the center-to-center spacing between the half shafts and the
motor? Just how much extra room do you need? If you're only off by half
an inch, there may be some quick fixes, like angling the transaxle
slightly to gain clearance.
Center-to-center is 6.75 inches. But that doesn't tell the whole story,
as there's also a CV joint on the shaft would also be in the way, much
more so than the shaft itself where it exits the transmission.
Before going to a more radical solution like a belt drive or one-wheel
drive, I'd either use the smaller motor or trade the big one for a motor
that fits.
Based on everyone's advice, that's the route we're going to take.
Thanks for all the feedback, folks.
Darin
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Hello Dave,
I use DC and AC solid state relays to control 3 fans at 12 volts, 3 fans at 120
VAC 60 hz , 3 heaters at 120 60 hz, and DC-AC inverter.
They are all NTE relays. The DC rated ones are NTE RS3-1040-4IM-SSR-
40A,DC,MSFT.
The control voltage is 3.5-32VDC and can switch 100 VDC at 40A.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Cover<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 4:25 PM
Subject: Soild state relays
Is there a reason not to use solid state relays in an EV? I saw some Solid
State Relays, 240V, 10A
and didn't know if they would be appropriate. It looks like they are made by
Opto 22, part#
240d10. 3-32vdc control. Maybe to control ceramic heaters or something.
Dave Cover
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Thanks. I think I'll save my money for relays. That explains why none of the
item info mentioned
AC or DC for the controlled voltage. It only states DC for the controlling
voltage. Thanks again
for the heads up.
Dave Cover
PS. I built my motor mounts last weekend and should be starting my battery
boxes this coming
weekend. Step by step.
--- Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dave Cover wrote:
> > Is there a reason not to use solid state relays in an EV? I saw some
> > Solid State Relays, 240V, 10A and didn't know if they would be
> > appropriate. It looks like they are made by Opto 22, part# 240d10.
> > 3-32vdc control. Maybe to control ceramic heaters or something.
>
> Almost all solid state relays switch AC only, and won't work on DC. They
> use triacs or SCRs as their switching devices. So, they would work for
> AC switching, like turning the charger on/off. They depend on the the AC
> line voltage automatically crossing zero to turn off. On DC, they will
> turn on but won't turn off.
>
> Well... there is a way to use these AC-only relays to switch DC. Use one
> to turn the load on. It will *latch* on and won't turn off. Then use a
> second one with a large capacitor in series to short out the first one
> and thereby switch it off. Then the capacitor will charge up, and the
> second one turns off too.
> --
> Ring the bells that still can ring
> Forget the perfect offering
> There is a crack in everything
> That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
> --
> Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
>
>
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Well being DC a MOSFET of the appropriate voltage/current rating will
switch it nicely. You will need a bit of additional circuitry to
properly drive the transistor's gate, and you'll probably want isolation
on the controlling signal.
Danny
Dave Cover wrote:
Thanks. I think I'll save my money for relays. That explains why none of the
item info mentioned
AC or DC for the controlled voltage. It only states DC for the controlling
voltage. Thanks again
for the heads up.
Dave Cover
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All -
I am considering for conversion a 1987 Toyota Tercel hatchback - seems
like it would make a good platform. My initial concern is mods that might
be required for the suspension - anyone out there have any advice to offer
on what actually needs to be done and where I can get the parts??
Thanks, Mike
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--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Well being DC a MOSFET of the appropriate voltage/current rating will
> switch it nicely. You will need a bit of additional circuitry to
> properly drive the transistor's gate, and you'll probably want isolation
> on the controlling signal.
>
Unfortunately all of that is beyond my capabilities. I'm more mechanic than EE.
I can follow a
schematic, but would be lost trying to figure out the simple circuit you
outlined above. Roland
makes a good point though. I might be able to use a solid state relays to do
something simple like
control AC ventilation fans during charging. How about running an AC ceramic
heater to preheat the
car in the morning?
Dave Cover
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Dave Cover wrote:
> Unfortunately all of that is beyond my capabilities. I'm more mechanic
> than EE. I can follow a schematic, but would be lost trying to figure
> out the simple circuit you outlined above. Roland makes a good point
> though. I might be able to use a solid state relays to do something
> simple like control AC ventilation fans during charging. How about
> running an AC ceramic heater to preheat the car in the morning?
Sure, that's fine. These solid state relays will switch any AC loads
just fine. That includes, chargers, heaters, ventilation fans --
anything running off the AC powerline.
Or, you can buy solid state relays specifically built for DC. They are
harder to find and cost more, but certainly exist.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Michaela Merz wrote:
> Just a question: If I would find somebody to rewind an alternator for use
> as a regen system, what kind of an alternator should I use? Should it be
> wound for exactly the pack voltage? What kind of diodes (and other parts)
> would I have to use to get the alternators ac to the needed dc?
Normal automotive alternators have very low efficiency -- but they are
common and cheap. Used as-is (no rewinding), they can easily develop
50-100 vdc. The voltage is controlled by the field current and rpm.
You'll have to disable or remove the internal voltage regulator, and
replace it with something that controls the field current to get the
desired output voltage.
The internal diodes are nominally rated at 100v. If you expect to go
higher, they should be replaced with higher voltage diodes.
A typical alternator generates 12vdc at 60a with full field current
(about 2 amps) and 1500 rpm (engine idling at about 600 rpm). If you
don't rewind it, to get (say) 120vdc out, you have to spin it 10x as
fast, i.e. 12,000 rpm. That sounds fast, but they are actually built to
go that fast!
But if you are using it for regen, it will only need to do this for
brief periods of time. So, you can also double the field current (4 amps
instead of 2 amps); then it develops that same 120vdc at 60a, but at
6,000 rpm. It will overheat in a few minutes, but that may be enough
time.
You can also have it rewound with more turns of thinner wire. This
raises the basic voltage at a given rpm and field current, but reduces
the output current in proportion.
Your best bet is to get a large 24 volt truck or bus alternator. They
are better made and more efficient, and automatically deliver twice the
voltage for any given rpm.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Dave Cover<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]<mailto:[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 8:09 PM
Subject: Re: Soild state relays
--- Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
> Well being DC a MOSFET of the appropriate voltage/current rating will
> switch it nicely. You will need a bit of additional circuitry to
> properly drive the transistor's gate, and you'll probably want isolation
> on the controlling signal.
>
Unfortunately all of that is beyond my capabilities. I'm more mechanic than
EE. I can follow a
schematic, but would be lost trying to figure out the simple circuit you
outlined above. Roland
makes a good point though. I might be able to use a solid state relays to do
something simple like
control AC ventilation fans during charging. How about running an AC ceramic
heater to preheat the
car in the morning?
Dave Cover
That is how I do my heating. A Delco alternator-inverter, which can provide
12 to 16 volts at 145 amp and provides 120 VAC 60 HZ 7000 watts at the same
time, using a Dynamote Inverter that a made in Seattle. This unit is normally
design for ship board power which requires a large area for installing.
I used a on dash 2 pole double throw 50 amp switch, which I used as a
transfer switch, from the plug in commercial power or from the on-board
inverter.
It can power three heaters of 1000, 850, and 640 watts. When preheating
with commercial AC, I can raise the inside cab temperature to over 80 degrees
when its 35 below. Can drive 5 miles with no additional heat. Can let the car
set at that low temperature for a hour and the whole car is still defrosted.
Roland
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That's under 1 hp though. In terms of regen capacity, 1 hp won't brake
the vehicle substantially and won't provide a substantial current to the
pack for just a few sec of braking. I suppose with a descent on an
"ideal" hill which is just steep enough that the car will overcome its
drag at the desired speed but still goes on for a long time that the
regen capacity becomes more substantial. Or do you get a lot more watts
out of it when it's rewound?
The Motorcraft 3G is a great alt I have experience with, they're like
160 amps. I got around 80 amps off it at even idle RPM, and that's
through an isolator so it was putting out an extra 1v or so above the
normal charging voltage setpoint.
Danny
Lee Hart wrote:
A typical alternator generates 12vdc at 60a with full field current
(about 2 amps) and 1500 rpm (engine idling at about 600 rpm). If you
don't rewind it, to get (say) 120vdc out, you have to spin it 10x as
fast, i.e. 12,000 rpm. That sounds fast, but they are actually built to
go that fast!
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I assume you've sold your Gizmo's???
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tom Gocze" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:31 PM
Subject: Lotsa questions
> Hi,
> Been lurking on EVDL for sometime and need some guidance.
> Have had several ev's in recent years, a couple Gizmos, a C-car, a Mazda
conversion and co-own 13 Elcars (I know, it is a sickness!)
>
> Tom Gocze
> Stockton Springs, Maine
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Depending our your part of the country, basing EV on coal isn't so far from
true... unless you are in the NW (Bonneville soon to be part of the coal
generation, if the administration gets their way) or if you produce your own
power. In many states, coal is up to 80% of the power produced, from what
I've been reading. Which page shows the conversion factor for electric from
coal?
Bio-diesel is the one I noted... "Pure biodiesel, B100, costs about
$3.50--roughly a dollar more per gallon than petrodiesel." I don't know if
they've jacked up their bio prices locally... but $3.50 is not out of line
with $3.30 for gasoline (Eugene OR, on Coburg Road)... and diesel isn't much
cheaper. Hardly $1 per gallon more, given recent pricing. Locally, Bio mixes
have been close in price to diesel, and I imagine less given the recent
price spikes.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Lewis, Brian K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 1:11 PM
Subject: RE: Comparison
> Did you notice the image suggest all the power for the EV Plus comes
> from Coal!
>
> - Brian
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, May 31, 2006 2:31 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: Comparison
>
> One reasonably short answer.
>
> The recent Popular Mechanics article compares a late 1990s Honda EV Plus
> to
> various gas and alternative fuel vehicles (see page 6).
> _http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y_
> (http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/earth/2690341.html?page=1&c=y)
>
> The paper copy has a great chart on ~ page 79 showing the EV Plus using
> a
> gasoline of 202 MPG
>
> Mike Bachand
> Denver Electric Vehicle Council
>
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