EV Digest 5545
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Intermec Car-touchscreen PC (was:) LED Matrix
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Intermec Car-touchscreen PC (was:) LED Matrix
by "peekay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Rookie Needs Advice
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Mike & Paula Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "Michael Mohlere" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) RE: Intermec Car-touchscreen PC (was:) LED Matrix
by "damon henry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Hi voltage DC-DC problem
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: An Inconvienient Truth, Hypermini & Who killed the electric car.
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by Reverend Gadget <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) Re: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I am hoping the newer stuff is more powerfull, more compatible, smaller,
uses less electricity and puts out less heat.
The reason analog gauges are prefered is at glance is all you need to
see relative value and action. The problem is most digital gauges are
just cheap scrolling numbers and suck. (There is a lot of famous work on
aircraft instrumentation because of the step taken back when they went
to digital)
On the other hand we had a couple of molding machines that had a
single touch screen. Text was displayed where that was best, Screens of
gauges were acurately rendered (they vibrated even), And overwriting
strip charts when the data was historical and chartable. I later found
this was a windows realtime OS for automation control. That and
keyboards are microsoft's best products.
I really like this idea.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also uC tend not to go snafu as often at single board computers. We had some
interesting issues up at MTU with the future car compatition with some PC104
computers on the car (boot time was one of them finaly hooked it to the
drivers door handle so as soon as you opened the door it was starting to
boot up. If you did not stick the key in it would shut back off in 10 min).
The last thing you want driving down the road is your car to "crash".
Microchip (corp) has a bunch of new micros and specific pourpose devices for
the CAN bus. For what your wanting to do this may be your best bet. It has
been designed from the ground up to run in a noisy automotive envirorment
and there will be lots of devices already on the market that you can tap
into. Also watch out on running your power door locks and any other
"standby" type devices off the computer it can/will suck your batteries dry
while your at work (unless your lucky enough to have a plugin). For the
items you have listed a hybrid system may be more sutible. Use low power
application specific micros for all the standby tasks and then use a CAN (or
other) bus to tie them back to the main multimedia controler when the card
is powered up.
Later,
Wire
From: Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
Date: Sun, 04 Jun 2006 15:59:51 -0500
You don't need or want an SBC IMHO. A uC can do a fine job. They're very
low power, now have enormous processing power and feature list, and are
just so darn simple.
I have designs and code, I can pretty much make whatever people want.
Danny
Jeff Shanab wrote:
Seperating the interface from the display.
We may want to consider designing such a device such that the display is
seperate. A user can buy the signal conditioning and the display or.....
As we come up with more things like Battery Management systems,
Temperature sensors, GPS, controller error messages, telemetry, ... and
so on. We can decide on a common communication protocol and even make
little communication converter bricks for stuff like the siemems
controller or zilla that already have a protocol. Then we can have 1
display for the car, isolated from the HV electrics.
There are now a bunch of little single board computers that might fill
this bill. They have lots of General purpose I/O and low power modes,
but can run an OS to make application programming easy. Kinda the best
of both worlds Microcontrollers and PDA. Today I compiled linux for my
Pocket PC phone (It has a xscale pxa-270) It booted!. The process is the
same if I buy a board. Some of these are < $100 and can drive VGA !
http://www.compulab.co.il/x270/html/x270-sb-datasheet.htm
http://www.toradex.com/e/Factsheet_Colibri_Intel_XScale_PXA270_Single_Board_Computer_Module.php
I am interested in createing a sytem for EV's like this and am
interested in suggestions for a communuication buss.
CAN,RS485,fiber channel, (this part can go to evtech)
I am also interested in a list of features people would like to see.
My plan so far is a 7" touch screen with function keys around the
periphery and a twidler input (kind of an up,down,left,right select that
can be on the steering wheel. It has a home button so you can navigate
without looking)
The base unit contains the basic emeter functionality but with history
and plugging in a gps reciever extends the history to contain point to
point data and distances.
xml skinnable, useing standard editors, for VDO style pseudo analog or
various digital styles.
we will be able to configure this "digital dash" on a PC and flash it.
If it can be made to go in the dash pod, then we can get tach, speed,
fuel gauges, temp gauges in there. and make it our one display.
alarm,
mp3 player
wireless web server(query the state of charge from inside the house or
download the telemetry collected)
gps,amps,volts,clock
remote door locks
Real error messages
BMS history, advanced warnings
real time limits, ie 400 amp limit to 3/4 throttle, limit removed when
throttle floored < 1 sec application time
(maybe a 2nd cpu for this stuff in the same box),
play a video when not driveing, like runs down the track when at car
shows.
This summer is sort-of proof of concept and If this works out, it may
become my masters project.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
+12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging
in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The line between a micro and SBC is very blurred nowadays. These ARM
based ones are like the higher end micros in power modes and power
levels, but can also go up to 1gz fanless and you can develop with
standard tools and off the shelf components, less to build. (This is an
unsubstantiated impression from research :-) ) The point of standard
tools is the one for me. I looked at micros and either program them in
assembly or... get a powerfull enough micro to use C. The C compilers
are ridiculously proprietarly priced for the micros. The ARM stuff is free.
If we are talking about only a single purpose device like an emeter a
smaller micro is appropriate, I am just concerned that we may end up
with lots of specialtiy devices and redundent wireing if we micro it all
the way.
So I think the CC1010 goes in the remote
the xscale PXA270 goes in the dsah
and 4 or 5 pic based signal transmitters feed the main display
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
would this mean that an ordinary touch screen computer running
some version of Windows OS can be used to get inputs thru
the serial, parallel, usb ports from sensors in the car .. and display
in graphic format the gauges ?
..peekay
From: "Jeff Shanab" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I later found
> this was a windows realtime OS for automation control. That and
> keyboards are microsoft's best products.
>
> I really like this idea.
___________________________________________________________
All new Yahoo! Mail "The new Interface is stunning in its simplicity and ease
of use." - PC Magazine
http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Mark:
I am happy to share my knowledge about converted (not OEM) S-10s. I am
quite happy with mine, 144V DC, no problem with highway speeds (though it
takes a moment and has a stiff penalty in terms of range). I am using
Trojan T-125s (flooded lead acid), normal range is between 30 and 50
Miles. Longest distance I drove was 35 Miles and I still had an idle
voltage of 147 V and > 130 V while pulling 150 A.
More at http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/693.html
Michaela
> Dear Group,
>
> I am a beginner with a strong interest / passion to convert an S-10 to
> an EV. I have subscribed to 2 discusssion lists, but all of you folks
> seem to be well beyond me.
>
> I am trying to pull together a plan. I want to purchase a conversion kit
> and go for it. My needs list would include:
>
> Minimal Cost
> Highway Speeds
> Normal Hills
> Maximum Distance.
> 220 volt single phase charger
> I guess the first question is AC or DC. In reading several websites it
> appears DC is the better choice for lightweight autos, whereas, it seems
> that the S-10 is considered a heavyweight vehicle. Therefore, use the AC
> approach?
>
> Transmission - Manual Transmission or Direct Drive behind the axle. I do
> not have a clue what is better!
>
> Batteries - What should I go with given the cost / life /performance
> tradeoffs?
>
> Could you folks please make a recommendation, to a rookie, on these
> first few decisions?
>
> Thanks and Regards,
>
>
> Mark Olejarczyk
> Copley, OH
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, Can be done, but why? Your converting the power through two rectifying
stages when the DC converter does it through one
The efficiency will be poor, especially when the inverter is not loaded.
Transformer efficiencies is also poor. MIght end up with a worst case
scenario of 50-60% conversion efficiency.
Cheers
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:07:53 -0400
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
+12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging in
a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
_________________________________________________________________
Read, write and reply to Hotmail on your mobile. Find out more.
http://mobilecentral.ninemsn.com.au/mcmobileHotmail/home.aspx
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
CANBus can be made to run on very low power, as can most any of the
microcontrollers. Microamps are easily achievable. Systemwide
reliability can easily be bulletproof. Unfortunately none of the low
cost ICs support it and you have to add a CAN transceiver to it to boot.
I was always thinking about driving a monochrome graphical LCD module.
Only black/white, no grayscales. This is straightforward with a uC
whereas driving a VGA etc display is not really practical.
Lee's attached to the "evilBus" concept, a serial bus with a scheme to
prevent bus contention and a phy which is isolated and differential.
This is handy that the bus itself can be driven by optoisolators;
otherwise you might need to have one controller gathering say battery
voltages and doing serial comm through an opto to a second controller
whose only real job is to talk to the bus.
However, I'm not completely onboard with this concept. It's a little
hokey to have all devices synchronize their transmit times, the bus can
only support a limited number of nodes, and it's not necessarily as low
power as said since I'm not sure how well it works with hardware modules
and Idle mode. But I'm not bashing anything, there's a lot of plusses
and minuses involved in any multiple-tx protocol.
Danny
Peter Shabino wrote:
Also uC tend not to go snafu as often at single board computers. We
had some interesting issues up at MTU with the future car compatition
with some PC104 computers on the car (boot time was one of them finaly
hooked it to the drivers door handle so as soon as you opened the door
it was starting to boot up. If you did not stick the key in it would
shut back off in 10 min). The last thing you want driving down the
road is your car to "crash". Microchip (corp) has a bunch of new
micros and specific pourpose devices for the CAN bus. For what your
wanting to do this may be your best bet. It has been designed from the
ground up to run in a noisy automotive envirorment and there will be
lots of devices already on the market that you can tap into. Also
watch out on running your power door locks and any other "standby"
type devices off the computer it can/will suck your batteries dry
while your at work (unless your lucky enough to have a plugin). For
the items you have listed a hybrid system may be more sutible. Use low
power application specific micros for all the standby tasks and then
use a CAN (or other) bus to tie them back to the main multimedia
controler when the card is powered up.
Later,
Wire
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
First question, just what do you want to do here?
Danny
From: Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Date: Mon, 05 Jun 2006 00:07:53 -0400
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15
and +12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then
plugging in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could just as well spend the $30 on a 15 volt switching power supply (or
a couple) from a laptop or small form factor desktop that put out from 3 to
10 amps. Power it straight from your pack. For my small 12 loads this works
nicely until I can get the proper DC-DC converter. I only pull 3.5 amps
with everything but the headlights and heater fan on and then it goes up to
13.5 amps. For not more than the hour worth of driving I do the 12V SLI is
proped up nicely until recharge every night. Before winter when it gets dark
and cold in Alaska I'll have a good DC-DC though.
Mike,
Anchorage, AK.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 8:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
+12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging
in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Exactly where can you purchase these nilar batteries? Has anyone used them?
I'm starting on my first EV, and am considering using same if I can fit it
in my budget. Would like to get some feedback from anyone that has used
these batteries in their EV.
Thx, Mike
From: "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Question about NIMH patent(s)
Date: Sat, 3 Jun 2006 03:03:12 -0700
Don't forget Nilar (http://www.nilar.com/). In the neighborhood of twice
as
much range using their NiMH batteries, as lead-acid, and, if you stay
within
30%-90% SOC range, you could get in the hundreds of thousands of mileage on
your electric before you need to replace them.
The 24V 10Ah Nilar NiMH battery costs about $200; it will deliver peak
power
of 2200W, from a battery weighing only 4.3kg (9 pounds) And it can be
charged in half an hour.
According to the open-source electric pages (
http://www.onechip.co.uk/simon/electric/battery.html), a 12V 55Ah Optima
D34
costs $143.00, will deliver peak power of 8700W, from a battery weighing
19.5kg (41 pounds), and can be recharged in as little as an hour.
Now, let's say you wanted a 24V, 50Ah battery. You'd need 5 Nilars or 2
Optimas.
5 Nilars: $1000, peak power 11kW, weight 45 pounds, charge in half an
hour... OR
2 Optimas: $286, peak power 17.4kW, weight 82 pounds, charge in an hour.
So, for the same range, they're 4 times more expensive, a third less power,
and only half the weight.
Let's say instead that you had capacity in your car for 1,000 pounds (!) of
batteries. (i.e., Tango class) That'd get you 111 Nilars or 24 Optimas.
111 Nilars: $22,000, peak power 244kW, weight 999 pounds, 26.6kW-Hrs,
charge
in half an hour... OR
24 Optimas: $3,432, peak power 208kW, weight 984 pounds, 15.8kW-Hrs, charge
in an hour.
Now here's the thing: the Nilars seem a lot more expensive here, but the #
cycles claimed means that they last way, way longer.
Other people mentioned NiMH's high self-discharge rate. Well, high is
relative. 1% per day may seem a lot for some applications, but if you use
your car a lot, it's not much at all. People who use an EV every day are
charging it every day.
I'd always wondered why none of the hybrid cars in the market use anything
other than NiMH. Especially when most popular consumer electronics devices
use Li-Ion or Li-Poly. I did find one very surprising thing about Li-Ion,
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Li-Ion:
A unique drawback of the Li-ion battery is that its life span is dependent
upon aging from time of manufacturing (shelf life) regardless of whether it
was charged, and not just on the number of charge/discharge cycles. This
drawback is not widely publicized.
At a 100% charge level, a typical Li-ion
laptop<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laptop>battery that's full most of
the time at 25 degrees
Celsius <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celsius>, will irreversibly lose
approximately 20% capacity per year. This capacity loss begins from the
time
it was manufactured, and occurs even when the battery is unused. Different
storage temperatures produce different loss results: 6% loss at 0 °C, 20%
at
25 °C, and 35% at 40 °C. When stored at 40% charge level, these figures are
reduced to 2%, 4%, 15% at 0, 25 and 40 degrees Celsius respectively.
I don't know about you, but if I had to choose between a 20% loss of
*capacity* per year, and a 1% loss of *charge* per day, I'll take the loss
of charge. Even if I used the full 26kWHrs of a 1,000-pound NiMH battery,
that's only 260WHrs per day. Even at California's 14c/kWHr electric rates,
that's a whopping 4 cents per day. [Yes, I know about CA's nighttime EV
discount that brings it down to 5c/kWHr]
Of course, the elephant in the room, that no one talks about, is charging
systems. Manufacturers like Toyota buy their batteries from suppliers, but
design their own chargers. For lead-acid, chargers are easy. For anything
else, it's a lot more complicated because it's so hard to figure out what
your state-of-charge is.
A smaller elephant-in-the-room is that almost no one will tell you what
their prices are, in small quantities. Well, the lead-acid guys will (or
they have lists of resellers that will). And maybe someone will tell you
what their price is for AA NiMH cells, or LiIon 18650s. But the larger
sizes? You have to beg and plead, unless perhaps you're the city of Denver
and you're building a fleet of EV buses. Sheesh!
As far as the whole Chevron-Texaco rights & patents situation... can we all
please dispense with the conspiracy theories? Big Oil knows very well that
the days of low-priced oil dominating the world transportation energy
market
are over, and the days of high-priced oil dominating the market will never
arrive. Medium-priced oil will drive a transition, and they need to have a
foothold in whatever comes next - electric batteries, fuel cells, 85E. So
of course some of them are going to be buying battery patents. If you
think
that Chevron/Texaco are blocking adoption of NiMH batteries, then you're
blind to the fact that NiMH currently dominates the field.
Anyway, I'm starting to ramble. Hope this helps. Anyone know what the
"list price" is on Cobasys batts?
jorg
On 5/16/06, Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Uncertain. Chevron-Texaco owns rights to Ovhinovski's
design, IIRC. SAFT has a NiMH product out, too.
Hope that helps in your search, though I think LiPo
will run over them way before patents end...
--- Tom Watson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi
>
> Does anybody know the date on the NIMH patent(s)?
> I'm curious how
> long they can tie up this technology... I don't
> remember how long
> they have exclusive rights, but I think there is a
> time limit!
>
> One of these days their patent rights are gonna
> expire and then it'll
> be open season on auto size NIMH battery packs! I
> can't wait...can we
> speed up the process?
>
> thanks
> T
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chris,
That is a Kludge. You can do this simpler and cheaper.
You only need to scrounge for a supply from a dead laptop,
mostly these are (almost) free.
At work we have a large carton box full of switching power supplies
from various sources. Forgotten, redundant or broken electronics
leave a heap of power supplies behind.
I plug my laptop supply straight into my pack (312V nominal) since
the supply is a switcher for 100-240V AC and works fine on my pack's
DC input. It supplies 20V 4.5A to my laptop, but there are many
variants of supplies that will give you anything and certainly 12
and 15V are standard voltages.
Good thing of the switcher is that it will draw very little
current when unloaded, in contrast to the inverter + cheap transformer.
BTW - this will only work if you have this power supply active during
charging AND driving, as your 12V loads will be much larger than the
3 to 5A that laptop supplies deliver.
You could either find a heavier switching power supply (30A or so) or
accept the gradual discharge while driving...
Success getting your DC/DC to work, as you may know my truck is
currently sitting in my garage with a broken DC/DC as well, but
since I am travelling the entire month with only overnights at home
and time to repack for a next trip, I have no time to fix it until July...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
+12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging
in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Still looking for a pair of switching power supplies. I may be able to stay
with a Vicor solution,
but.... Has anyone heard of the Mean Well Brand? The price is within range, $55
for a 12volt
supply. Here's a link to the specs, do they look Ok?
http://www.power-factor-1st.com/shop/enclosed-switching-power-supplies/g2-series/s-150.html
Thanks
Dave Cover
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Christopher Zach wrote:
> Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
> +12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging
> in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
>
> It can't be that simple, can it?
Yes, it works, and it is that simple. However, it won't win any prizes
for efficiency!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awhile back I helped Larry R do a ford explorer ( a suv) . When I was
talking to him about the project I said the proformance would probable be
about like what my work truck while towing the trailer ( at that time I had
20 golf cart batteries in it , 120v ) . He wanted something big , to carry
his kids around , and the proformance of my work truck while towing the lawn
mower on trailer was ok he said. ( I think evething was 4800 lbs at that
time) . Larry went with the 29 orbitals so he wouldn't have to water them ,
and dcp t rex 600 amp controller . The thing trunned out better that I
though it would , 60 mph + and a real 30 mile range at 45 mph. Larry was
very maticuless and everthing was cut and fit just right . While he was
building it I came buy one day and saw that the battery boxs he had made ,
put the battery tirmanals to close to the frame . The boxes where done , I
said that somthing had to be done to fix the problem , we talked about a
tick plactic strip. I didn't ask later what he had done , and the suv was
one the road , for about 6 months , when those termanels arced to the frame
and started a fire, Larry wasn't home when it happened , suv just sitting in
the drive way , fire department put it out . This was very sad as it was a
impresive conversion , never made it in the ev album :-( .
I have though for a while that when people start dumping there suv's
becuse of the gas prices , that they might make good Nev's . Like you say 30
golf cart batteries , a battery tray under them that can make getting to
the batteries easy. No more flipping over with the battery weight under the
suv.
Steve Clunn
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 4:22 PM
Subject: Massive Madness - Buick Electra Conversion?
Hi folks,
One of my co-workers, who I have to admit holds opposing viewpoints to
mine on virtually all political and environmental issues, has slowly come
around to the suspicion that electric vehicles might be a pretty good
idea, and in light of fuel price increases, has even suggested that he
might consider building a conversion or buying a used one. While bouncing
ideas back and forth the other day, he said:
"What someone really ought to convert is one of those large luxury cars
from the 60s or 70s. Remind folks that what they used to have and then
show them they can still have it. It would really be an eye-opener at
your displays."
His comments got me thinking. I remember someone asking about converting
an early 60s Lincoln quite a few years ago on the EVDL and being generally
told to forget it. As I recall he was asking for some un-realistic range
like 150 miles on the highway and a very low budget. At the time I was
driving a Jet 007 with 20 T-105s and a Curtis 1221B so I was having
trouble imagining a Lincoln EV even moving.
Before I bought my first Honda, my favorite cars were a 1965 Electra and a
1972 LeSabre. Yesterday morning I found myself looking at a dent and rust
free 1975 Electra with a for sale sign on it. Could some one actually
convert one of these into a practical electric car? An electric Electra?
Am I just nuts, or is this actually a possibility? Say 26-30 T-145s, a
1000 K Zilla and maybe a pair of 9" motors back to back? Sure, it would
be heavy, but heck they made limos and hearses out of those things so they
can be made to carry some weight. What do you think?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
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On the other hand we had a couple of molding machines that had a
single touch screen. Text was displayed where that was best, Screens of
gauges were acurately rendered (they vibrated even), And overwriting
strip charts when the data was historical and chartable. I later found
this was a windows realtime OS for automation control. That and
keyboards are microsoft's best products.
That's funny I've always heard that the only thing that Microsoft makes that
doesn't suck is vacuum cleaners :-) Sorry, I had to toss a bone to the Mac
users on the list ;-)
damon
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Dave Cover wrote:
> Still looking for a pair of switching power supplies. I may be able
> to stay with a Vicor solution, but.... Has anyone heard of the Mean
> Well Brand? The price is within range, $55 for a 12 volt supply.
Mean Wells are cheap Chinese supplies. The price is right, but you get
what you pay for. They are built for dry indoor room-temperature use;
you may find they don't last long in a car.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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On 4 Jun 2006 at 19:17, Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
> Global warming ...
I regret to say that this post had little useful EV content, and was
potentially controversial.
List members, please do not respond to this post.
There are list members for whom any mention of climate change or global
warming is like a red kerchief for a bull. They find it difficult to resist
mounting a counterattack. However, such flame wars don't advance the
primary purpose of this list, which is to get more EVs on the road.
So, please restrain yourself on these matters. This is effectively a
settled issue for both sides - those who accept the arguments for climate
change are already convinced, and those who do not accept the arguments will
never be convinced. Attempting to discuss it will NOT change any minds, it
will only cause flame wars.
Let's talk about those matters we can agree on.
Thanks.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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On 5 Jun 2006 at 3:29, Michael Mohlere wrote:
> Exactly where can you purchase these nilar batteries? Has anyone used them?
> I'm
> starting on my first EV, and am considering using same ...
For your first EV, I strongly advise using golf car batteries. Beginners
tend to murder their first (and sometimes second and third) packs, so you
don't want the first one to be an expensive one.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
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This thread is detouring (as so many do) into "let's do it all with
computers". That's fine; but to me, it eliminates the main virtue of the
Brueggemann Meter -- simplicity.
If you use a microcomputer, then the 10x10 matrix of LEDs becomes hard
to drive (20 I/O lines; that's a big chip!) -- you might as well use an
LCD display.
If you use an LCD, you might as well display actual voltages and
currents. Or draw bar charts and cute graphics.
If you do this, you need much higher accuracy and resolution. Not 0.3v
steps, but 0.03v steps. And, you'll need a much faster micro, with more
speed and memory.
Now you need to program it -- so it needs a serial port... and software
to support whatever invented language it uses... and a laptop to talk to
it...
By now it's power consumption has gotten so high that you can't run it
directly off the pack; you need a DC/DC converter and isolation, etc. --
more parts.
Six months later, you still haven't finished debugging it. Meanwhile,
the Brueggemann meter could have been built in a single day, and would
be in the car working.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Mike Chancey wrote:
> Before I bought my first Honda, my favorite cars were a 1965 Electra
> and a 1972 LeSabre. Yesterday morning I found myself looking at a
> dent and rust free 1975 Electra with a for sale sign on it. Could
> someone actually convert one of these into a practical electric
> car?
It would be more work, but I'm sure it could be done. One advantage of
these older "land yachts" is that they tended to overbuild things
because they didn't have the computer-aided design to cut things close
to the bone. Also, the brakes, suspension, wheels, tires, etc. were
simpler -- it would be easier to swap them for higher-strength truck
parts. Think of Roland Weinch's 2.5-ton El Camino.
Batteries are heavy, but they don't actually take up many cubic feet.
The 30 T-145s you suggested are only 30 x (7" x 10" x 11") = 13.5 cubic
feet. These old cars easily had that much room in the trunk and under
the hood.
My guess is that you'd build a real frame to put underneath, and use
truck parts for the suspension, brakes, and wheels.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
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Cor van de Water wrote:
Chris,
That is a Kludge. You can do this simpler and cheaper.
You only need to scrounge for a supply from a dead laptop,
mostly these are (almost) free.
At work we have a large carton box full of switching power supplies
from various sources. Forgotten, redundant or broken electronics
leave a heap of power supplies behind.
What I worry about here is capacitor ability. My charger can run up to
400 volts on charge, and if a laptop power supply can't handle a 400
volt surge we will have a mess. Worse, if the supply's isolation fails I
either have +400 ripping through my Dolphin (again) or 400 volts sitting
in my lap (waah).
Both of these supplies can be really tiny; one is for the 15 volt supply
on the car, the other is for the E-meter. Both have to be isolated.
Although I could put the +15 laptop supply into the 60 watt DC-AC inverter.
The big DC-DC converter for the car is really more of a programming
issue. At worst case I can just wire the "turn on dude" pin for it to
the output of the +5 regulator. Thus when the car fires up, it closes
the contactors, makes power for the +5 pump, then turns on the DC-DC
converter. Thing should always be on anyway; it regulates it's own 12
volt output.
Chris
I plug my laptop supply straight into my pack (312V nominal) since
the supply is a switcher for 100-240V AC and works fine on my pack's
DC input. It supplies 20V 4.5A to my laptop, but there are many
variants of supplies that will give you anything and certainly 12
and 15V are standard voltages.
Good thing of the switcher is that it will draw very little
current when unloaded, in contrast to the inverter + cheap transformer.
Success getting your DC/DC to work, as you may know my truck is
currently sitting in my garage with a broken DC/DC as well, but
since I am travelling the entire month with only overnights at home
and time to repack for a next trip, I have no time to fix it until July...
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
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Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: Sunday, June 04, 2006 9:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Another way to get isolated DC-DC....
Question: Is it stupid to get a pair of isolated DC-DC sources (+15 and
+12) by just taking a $30 12 volt to 120 volt AC inverter, then plugging
in a pair of wall-wart transformers?
It can't be that simple, can it?
Chris
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Danny Miller wrote:
First question, just what do you want to do here?
As discussed, the +15 power supply (one of 4 in a Dolphin) was blown to
bits due to a MOSFET failure. That's why it never ran. I can bypass this
and get the truck to run, but I'd like something that can run off pack
power or isolated 12 volt power from the battery system.
The second +12 supply is for the e-meter. Xantrex in their wisdom set
the thing up so it's - is tied to pack negative. Thus unless you do not
want the mother of all ground faults you need to either tap the traction
pack (a disaster in any way) or hook it up via an isolated DC-DC to +12.
Both of these need less than an amp of current capacity.
Chris
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I've got a 1946 olsmobile in the shop to convert. I'll
be using a single Netgain 11' motor with a Zilla Z2K
and no transmission. The car rolls easier than my
Triumph. I actually had to block the tires inside the
shop. We'll see how much range I can get out of it.
Gadget
visit my websites at www.reverendgadget.com, gadgetsworld.org,
leftcoastconversions.com
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Fun stuff. I thought about going big with my conversion, but decided
against it after some caculations. Here were some things I figured
out:
* It probably won't make much difference in city range, as that is
mostly a function of % battery weight, and for a car conversion it is
tough to safely increase the % by much.
* It could help alot with high speed range. You can cram in twice as
many batteries, but the car is only 20% or 30% more frontal area. For
instance, for land speed racing, a 3400 lb (before conversion) Camaro
with 56 Orbitals would be a much better car than a 2000 lb (before
conversion) economy car with 28 Orbitals.
* It would roughly double the conversion cost (twice as many
batteries, 2 motors, 2 chargers).
* You might not be able to fully charge a depleted pack overnight.
Also, your charger "miles per hour" will go down -- instead of
getting 10 miles of range in an hour charge, you might get only 5.
I think an intriguing idea would be to load up a truck frame with
batteries and put a lightweight fiberglass body on it.
<http://www.usbody.com/>
--- Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> One of my co-workers, who I have to admit holds opposing viewpoints
>
> to mine on virtually all political and environmental issues, has
> slowly come around to the suspicion that electric vehicles might be
> a
> pretty good idea, and in light of fuel price increases, has even
> suggested that he might consider building a conversion or buying a
> used one. While bouncing ideas back and forth the other day, he
> said:
>
> "What someone really ought to convert is one of those large luxury
> cars from the 60s or 70s. Remind folks that what they used to have
>
> and then show them they can still have it. It would really be an
> eye-opener at your displays."
>
> His comments got me thinking. I remember someone asking about
> converting an early 60s Lincoln quite a few years ago on the EVDL
> and
> being generally told to forget it. As I recall he was asking for
> some un-realistic range like 150 miles on the highway and a very
> low
> budget. At the time I was driving a Jet 007 with 20 T-105s and a
> Curtis 1221B so I was having trouble imagining a Lincoln EV even
> moving.
>
> Before I bought my first Honda, my favorite cars were a 1965
> Electra
> and a 1972 LeSabre. Yesterday morning I found myself looking at a
> dent and rust free 1975 Electra with a for sale sign on it. Could
> some one actually convert one of these into a practical electric
> car? An electric Electra? Am I just nuts, or is this actually a
> possibility? Say 26-30 T-145s, a 1000 K Zilla and maybe a pair of
> 9"
> motors back to back? Sure, it would be heavy, but heck they made
> limos and hearses out of those things so they can be made to carry
> some weight. What do you think?
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