EV Digest 5553
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by M Bianchi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Flying out to San Francisco this weekend
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Electric/EV basic knowledge
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter (and kids)
by "Joe Vitek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Percent Difference
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Current Eliminator News!!!!!!
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
10) Re: Alan Geenspan breifing US senate commitee on EVs
by "Charles Whalen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Three questions (was: Announcement of new NEDRA Voltage Divisions)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Who Killed The Electric Car?
by "steve ollerton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Trojan T-1275 VS T-875 Batteries
by Mike Chancey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Advice for FIL: NEV, Hybrid, or...?
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: Trojan T-1275 VS T-875 Batteries
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Voltage sag in NiFe batteries
by Steve Condie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) OT - Ebert review strongly recommends "An Inconvenient Truth"
by "Peri Hartman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) META: lost messages/digests (RE: "Xebra (or.. ?) advice for FIL")
by Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) RE: LogiSystems (was: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?)
by "Mueller, Craig M" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) RE: LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
by Gnat <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Phillips wrote:
> How is assembly to write in? easier than C?
No, generally assembly will be more difficult to write in because each
instruction (generally) tells the micro to do exactly one thing (load
this byte into that register, set this bit of this byte, etc.), and you
must therefore tell the micro how to do each and every step of any
operation you wish to perform, in the proper order, etc. Assembly has
you writing in the processor's native language, and requires you to
become intimately familiar with the architecture and inner workings of
that particular processor (family). If you decide tomorrow that some
other brand/make of micro is better suited to your task, the code you
have written and the language you have learned will likely not be
protable to the new processor (family).
C is a high-level language, which means that it is English-like (aside
from some syntax/gramar details to be learned, just about anyone can
read C code and get the general idea of what it is supposed to do), and
each C instruction typically translates into multiple assembly
instructions. This means that it will take less lines of code (that you
have to read) to tell the micro how to do something if you write it in C
than if you write it in assembly. It also means that what you write can
focus on the task you wish to perform instead of the low-level,
hardware-specific details of each and every step the micro might have to
perform in order to do what you want. Finally, it means that if you
later wish to use a different micro, you can usually take the C code you
have written and with only small changes recompile it for the new part.
C itself is the same regardless of the processor you run the compiled
code on, so once you have learned C you can move from one processor
family to another without having to relearn a new asssembly
language/instruction set each time.
If you don't know assembly or C, I would suggest that learning C will be
easier, faster, and a more versatile/valuable skill to gain.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to be flying out to San Francisco to meet with a guy and work
on his US Electricar truck/Prizm this weekend. This is probably going to
be a simple fix, meaning I'll have some time to tool around and meet people.
Would anyone like to get together with an East Coast EVer while I'm out
there? Dinner/tour of cars/chatting/whatever? It would be interesting to
meet some of you while I'm there.
Chris
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lee Hart wrote:
> :
> Learn to measure things for yourself. If you can't measure it, you don't
> really know what you're doing. Use that battery charger you built to
> test some old batteries; learn how they REALLY work (as opposed to all
> the old wive's tales and misinformation on the internet).
>
> Something like the Brueggemann meter is an ideal first project. It's
> simple, and lends itself to extensive customization and improvement!
Well put, Lee, as usual. I would only add that we _do_ have it better than
"when I was a kid" in that the internet has a lot more useful information for
the beginner and beyond. Yes, the quality metric of the information ranges
from far negative to very positive, but then learning the difference is part of
the learning.
--
Mike Bianchi
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What part of the Bay Area are you going too? That might help nail down
where you are going to be.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> I'm going to be flying out to San Francisco to meet with a guy and work
> on his US Electricar truck/Prizm this weekend. This is probably
going to
> be a simple fix, meaning I'll have some time to tool around and meet
people.
>
> Would anyone like to get together with an East Coast EVer while I'm out
> there? Dinner/tour of cars/chatting/whatever? It would be
interesting to
> meet some of you while I'm there.
>
> Chris
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
You could google on "science project." The projects are often fun
things and usually a to-the-point quick read.
--- Patrick Clarke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Greetings EV-ers.
>
> As a newbie who feels quite ignorant about things electrical when
> he
> reads this list - not stupid, just ignorant (ok, well I sometimes
> FEEL
> stupid, too, but honest...) - I'd like to educate myself on the
> topic.
> Not looking for an EE degree, but a good basic understanding of
> electricity that would give me some base to be applied here in the
> EV
> world. I'd like to be able to *follow* these conversations here,
> and get
> more than just a vague feeling of what folks are talking about when
> they
> get into charging/controllers/motors discussions, etc.
>
> Can anyone recommend a course of action/study? Electricity for
> Dummies?
> Don't laugh (ok, but keep it down to a dull roar, eh?), but the Mrs
>
> wants to buy me one of those Radio Shack type "Electric Lab" kits..
>
> should I let her or is that too toylike? Any online courses that
> aren't
> too expensive? I'm not (initially at least, one never knows!)
> looking to
> change careers, but I think I'd really enjoy having *some* sort of
> grounding (so to speak) in electrical matters, especially as they
> pertain to this EVer-so-intriquing hobby/endeavour!
> Prefer something I can pursue on my own schedule, which is pretty
> full
> at the moment. Assume no prior knowledge/experience, but a quick
> study
> when motivated.
>
> Thanks in advance for any thoughts or advice.
> - Patrick
>
>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Shabino wrote:
> sample code (just off the top of my head)
>
> START
> MOVF PORTC,W ;take the data in port c (one of the
> IO banks) and move it to W (the accu)
> XORLW 0x17 ;do a exclusive or of literal data
> (17 in hex) with W put the result in W
> BTFSS STATUS,Z ;check the Z bit in the STATUS reg
> and skip the next instruction if its set
> ;the status reg have a bunch of math and
> other status bits. the Z bit is set if
> the last operation resulted in 0
> GOTO SKIPOUT ;just like basic go to the flag named
> SKIPOUT
> BSF PORTA,0 ;set bit 0 of port A to a 1
>
> SKIPOUT
> MOVF PORTC,W ;take the data in port c (one of the
> IO banks) and move it to W (the accu)
> XORLW 0xE0 ;do a exclusive or of literal data
> (E0 in hex) with W put the result in W
> BTFSS STATUS,Z ;check the Z bit in the STATUS reg
> and skip the next instruction if its set
> ;the status reg have a bunch of math
> and other status bits. the Z bit is set
> if the last operation resulted in 0
> GOTO SKIPOUT0 ;just like basic go to the flag named
> SKIPOUT0
> BCF PORTA,0 ;set bit 0 of port A to a 0 SKIPOUT0
> GOTO START ;just like basic go to the flag named start
>
>
> the above program will watch port C on a PIC (8 bit input or
> output port) and if hex 17 is present it will turn on portA
> bit 0 if its hex E0 it will turn off the bit all other states
> no change.
For comparison, C code to do the same task might look like:
if ( portC == 0x17 )
{
portA |= 0x01; /* set bit 0 */
}
if ( portC == 0xE0 )
{
portA &= ~0x01; /* clear bit 0 */
}
What I typically do is define macros (a type of shorthand) for common
operations such as setting and clearing a bit:
#define setBit( value, mask ) ((value) |= (mask))
#define clearBit( value, mask ) ((value) &= ~(mask))
I also define values such as the bit mask for bit 0 as preprocessor
constants to improve readability:
#define BIT0 (0x01)
With these enhancements, the C code improves in readability to:
if ( portC == 0x17 )
{
setBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* set bit 0 */
}
if ( portC == 0xE0 )
{
clearBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* clear bit 0 */
}
Of course, assuming that the values 0x17 and 0xE0 have some sort of
meaning, I would define constants for them that have meaningful names,
like:
#define MOTOR_OVERTEMP (0x17)
#define NO_FAULT (0xE0)
And would then use them instead of the less meanignful hex numbers:
if ( portC == MOTOR_OVERTEMP )
{
setBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* set bit 0 */
}
if ( portC == NO_FAULT )
{
clearBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* clear bit 0 */
}
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Lee Hart wrote:
> I do a lot of work in schools, with 4th-6th graders
> (www.bestoutreach.com). We help them to build EVs; (see, we're back
> on-topic :-)
:)
Wow, I meant younger as in the mid 20s younger. Ok, now I am old. :D
> I find that kids haven't changed. They are still marvelously energetic,
> curious, creative, and adaptive.
Absolutely. Everything you posted is true. I have a 5 year old daughter and I
am 41. I
have a garage and house full of tools and whenever anything breaks or stops
working,
Phoebe knows that dad will fix it. He won't take it somewhere to get it fixed
because
there is no need. It is so cool that whenever one of her toys breaks, she
brings it to me
to fix. Mom can't fix it, but Dad can... :-D I want to teach her that she can
be the one
to help herself and the value in skills like that.
Once I really get started on my EV, she will be helping me. She helps me now
with my big
block Olds project and loves to tinker. She likes to draw and create. If kids
were more
encouraged like this, as Lee suggests, this country would turn back around and
become
something better than for what we are headed; a second rate nation.
Kudos to you for working with kids like this. It is the most valuable work
going on out
there. Especially in EVs!
--
joe
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks, Lee. I'd gotten as far as the two shunts and meter--but those damn
voltage dividers did me in. It's the first thing that electronics books
teach, and the last thing that I think of. I'm going to put an endless MP3
loop under my pillow at night: "Voltage Divider...Voltage Divider...Voltage
Divider".
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 11:46 AM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Percent Difference
Bill Dennis wrote:
> How would you measure the percentage by which one amperage is more
> than a second amperage? I'm specifically thinking of the case where
> you parallel charge two strings with different amp-hour capacities.
> Let's say one string is twice the amp-hours of the other. During
> charging, the larger amp-hour string should get around 2/3 of the
> charging current and the smaller amp-hour string around 1/3.
That's easy. Put a shunt in series with each string. The negative ends
of both shunts are wired together (they make dual shunts like this).
Wire your ammeter between the positive ends of each shunt. It will
indicate the *difference* in current between them.
If you want to scale it so "zero" on the ammeter means exactly 2x the
current is flowing in one string, you can use one 500amp 50mv and one
250amp 50mv shunt. When (say) 50a is flowing in the 500a shunt, and 25a
is flowing in the 250a shunt, the meter will read zero.
Or, use two idential 500a 50mv shunts, but put a 2:1 voltage divider
across the one that is to have twice the current. Tie your ammeter
between this center tap and the positive end of the other one.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 6/4/06 5:22:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re: Current Eliminator News!!!!!!
Date: 6/4/06 5:22:39 PM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
In a message dated 6/4/06 9:54:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
<< Subj: Re:Current Eliminator News!!!!!!
Date: 6/4/06 9:54:03 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Rod Hower)
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Reply-to: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Dennis,
Congratulations!!!
With the cost of gas in the news everyday I would
think
the national news should be doing a story on this and
get even more EV press.
Keep up the good work!
Rod
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> After a long week of racing great news,we took over
> the NHRA Summit Super Pro
> points lead. The final round 2am. Again my .00
> reaction times played a huge
> factor, but the CE also did its job. Of the 5 round
> wins I redialed the car 4
> times. The motor temp started at 113F and ended the
> night at 116F.
> The batteries started at 121F and ended at 128F. The
> track temp. started at
> 151F and ended at 97F. It was a warm night to race
> in a double layer race suit
> siting 4 inches off the track. I am sure I lost at
> least 5lbs. Of the 5 round
> wins 4 cars were quicker than 8.5 seconds. 2 racers
> broke out by .003. Last
> night was huge in that the points leader lost in the
> 1st round and I went all
> the way. I now have at least a 4 round advantage in
> 1st place. 3rd 4th and 5th
> places fell further behind as I took them out early.
> Again these are the
> Division champs at my track for the last 3 years so
> I now have more points then any
> other NHRA div track. HUGE EV PRESS.
>
>
> Dennis Berube
> >>
I forgot to mention the prizes,$1000,large trophy,car ramps,jacks and roll
around. Dennis >>
Well the Points are posted on the Speedworld website. The Current Eliminator
Dragster has a 401 point advantage over 2nd place.That is at least 4 rounds
more than the ICE dragsters in the super pro class.
Dennis Berube
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Interesting article. I know (at least in part) how and where Greenspan got
pimped on the EV stuff in preparation for his Senate testimony. I had a
3-hour working lunch yesterday with a senior exec EV engineer of one of the
big automakers who had a similar working lunch the day before yesterday with
Alan Greenspan (in the same place as my lunch with him) in which he brought
Greenspan up to speed on EV/PHEV technology, including one major automaker's
PHEV production plans. Greenspan definitely *got* it.
Charles Whalen
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 2:04 PM
Subject: Re: Alan Geenspan breifing US senate commitee on EVs
Mike,
I only saw this article,
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/07/AR2006060700625.html
and a similar one on Reuters in text.
The video link was for a live showing.
any idea if the testimony text is anywhere?
Thanks, Ben
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Of course, assuming that the values 0x17 and 0xE0 have some sort of
meaning, I would define constants for them that have meaningful names,
like:
#define MOTOR_OVERTEMP (0x17)
#define NO_FAULT (0xE0)
ASM has the same short hand (even macros)
MOTOR_OVERTEMP EQU 0x17
NO_FAULT EQU 0xE0
Just was trying to create a short example.
Later,
Wire
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: RE: Pic stuff (was) LED Matrix (was) the Mark Brueggemann Meter
Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2006 13:43:28 -0700
Peter Shabino wrote:
> sample code (just off the top of my head)
>
> START
> MOVF PORTC,W ;take the data in port c (one of the
> IO banks) and move it to W (the accu)
> XORLW 0x17 ;do a exclusive or of literal data
> (17 in hex) with W put the result in W
> BTFSS STATUS,Z ;check the Z bit in the STATUS reg
> and skip the next instruction if its set
> ;the status reg have a bunch of math and
> other status bits. the Z bit is set if
> the last operation resulted in 0
> GOTO SKIPOUT ;just like basic go to the flag named
> SKIPOUT
> BSF PORTA,0 ;set bit 0 of port A to a 1
>
> SKIPOUT
> MOVF PORTC,W ;take the data in port c (one of the
> IO banks) and move it to W (the accu)
> XORLW 0xE0 ;do a exclusive or of literal data
> (E0 in hex) with W put the result in W
> BTFSS STATUS,Z ;check the Z bit in the STATUS reg
> and skip the next instruction if its set
> ;the status reg have a bunch of math
> and other status bits. the Z bit is set
> if the last operation resulted in 0
> GOTO SKIPOUT0 ;just like basic go to the flag named
> SKIPOUT0
> BCF PORTA,0 ;set bit 0 of port A to a 0 SKIPOUT0
> GOTO START ;just like basic go to the flag named start
>
>
> the above program will watch port C on a PIC (8 bit input or
> output port) and if hex 17 is present it will turn on portA
> bit 0 if its hex E0 it will turn off the bit all other states
> no change.
For comparison, C code to do the same task might look like:
if ( portC == 0x17 )
{
portA |= 0x01; /* set bit 0 */
}
if ( portC == 0xE0 )
{
portA &= ~0x01; /* clear bit 0 */
}
What I typically do is define macros (a type of shorthand) for common
operations such as setting and clearing a bit:
#define setBit( value, mask ) ((value) |= (mask))
#define clearBit( value, mask ) ((value) &= ~(mask))
I also define values such as the bit mask for bit 0 as preprocessor
constants to improve readability:
#define BIT0 (0x01)
With these enhancements, the C code improves in readability to:
if ( portC == 0x17 )
{
setBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* set bit 0 */
}
if ( portC == 0xE0 )
{
clearBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* clear bit 0 */
}
Of course, assuming that the values 0x17 and 0xE0 have some sort of
meaning, I would define constants for them that have meaningful names,
like:
#define MOTOR_OVERTEMP (0x17)
#define NO_FAULT (0xE0)
And would then use them instead of the less meanignful hex numbers:
if ( portC == MOTOR_OVERTEMP )
{
setBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* set bit 0 */
}
if ( portC == NO_FAULT )
{
clearBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* clear bit 0 */
}
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually your style is a bit flawed for PIC. If you only have to set or
clear ONE bit, then it should just be:
LATB0=1; //PICC18
LATAPins.1=1; //MCC18, I don't think I stated the macro exactly right.
That explicitly leads to a single bit set instruction. Saying to read
the PortA register, and/or it with another byte, and write it back may
end up compiled into multiple instructions. Or the compiler might be
able to figure it out but don't bet on it. Also, writing Port registers
this way can cause a glitch if part of the port has been an input but
gets changed to an output later in the code.
Also, it leads to split macros. For example, I keep ALL my pin
definitions in their own single file, nowhere else in the project. This
is important because if you have to later change the pins around you can
do so without hunting for every reference anywhere in the code. So in
pins.h:
#define PIN_SDO LATB0
#define PORT_DATAIN PORTD
if (PORT_DATAIN == 0x1e){
PIN_SDO=0;
}
That keeps you from having to remember that SDO is not only pin 0 but on
LATB; i.e. "setBit(PORT_SDO, BIT_SDO);" This is one less place for a
typo to frustrate you for god-only-knows how long in debugging.
Danny
Roger Stockton wrote:
For comparison, C code to do the same task might look like:
portA |= 0x01; /* set bit 0 */
#define setBit( value, mask ) ((value) |= (mask))
#define clearBit( value, mask ) ((value) &= ~(mask))
setBit( portA, BIT0 ); /* set bit 0 */
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> [Original Message]
> From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Date: 6/7/2006 8:51:36 AM
> Subject: RE: Three questions (was: Announcement of new NEDRA Voltage
Divisions)
>
> Boosting the battery voltage is exactly what the newer Prius (2004+)
> are doing: battery is 200V, motor controller is taking 500V DC or
> thereabouts.
Hybrids can not be raced in NEDRA classes all motive power must come from
batteries carried on board the vehicle.
> I am not suggesting that Prius are racing material, just to say that
> it is not an uncommon situation.
> NEDRA will need to define _where_ and _how_ to measure the voltage.
> If it's the batteries nominal voltage spec as in 2V per lead acid cell
> and 1.2 V per NiCd cell, etc., then all that is needed is to publish
> a list of battery chemistries and voltage per cell that is counted,
> then everyone can figure out the nr of series connected cells and
> determine their class.
>
> If you want to determine the class from max motor voltage then there
> is no need to have 12V steps, as motor voltage max will depend on a
> lot of things: AC or DC (RMS voltage on the AC output as the reference?)
> and the max PWM output times the peak voltage or just the peak voltage
> for DC drive? and so on....
>
> BTW - we hear frequently about motor series/parallelling.
> How is a car classified that does battery series/parallel switching?
> Is it the highest voltage that can be reached when series switching?
Voltage is measured at the battery pack,Period!
>
> At some point in time it may be beneficial to distinguish classes
> between "lead" and "advance chemistries" instead of lumping them
> together, but I'll leave it to someone else to determine if we want
> a class per chemistry or just keep one class and allow everyone to
> choose according budget and performance of chemistries.
As of now I belive there is only one Lion vehicle actively racing and it is
running high voltage.
A notation of battery chemestry in the record listing is a possible way to
resolve the issue.
The board of directors will determine how to handle this issue and post it
for comment by the NEDRA
membership after 30days the board of directors will vote on and post the
rules.
Any one wishing to build an electric drag racing vehicle should aquire a
NHRA rule book,
and read sec.1A,1C,1G,1H,and the general rules sec. Then go to NEDRA.COM.
and read
theNedra rules. If this is done before starting the project it can save
problems down the road.
Build a machine and come out and race," Father Time"
>
> Regards,
>
> Cor van de Water
> Systems Architect
> Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Monday, June 05, 2006 9:56 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu; ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: Three questions (was: Announcement of new NEDRA Voltage
> Divisions)
>
>
> No one has tried building and racing a boost controller, but
> it has been proposed before. I suspect that the weight, cost, and
> perhaps inefficiency, might outweigh the possible advantage, but I
> could easily be wrong.
>
> Someone should try it. Maybe it will work.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
>
> At 05:06 PM 6/4/2006, Jorg Brown wrote:
> >Well said, Bill, especially your note about the membership's 30-day
comment
> >period.
> >
> >One thing I've been curious about for some time is how the voltage is
done.
> >As you've mentioned, the "nominal" voltage is clear for lead-acid but not
> so
> >clear for other chemistries, because other chemistries don't have as
wide a
> >voltage range as lead-acid does.
> >
> >But putting that question to the side, I've wondered if there is any
> thought
> >about what happens if a controller increases the voltage? Suppose I aim
to
> >break the 24V records by using, say, 30 hawkers in two heavily parallel
> >packs of 15 each. Then I use a special step-up controller that takes my
> >voltage back up to, say, 240V. Is that still considered a 24V-class
> >vehicle?
> >
> >And if that's considered a 240V vehicle, then what about AC drive? Do we
> >use RMS equivalence, the same way that 110VAC is really 311V
peak-to-peak?
> >
> >jorg
> >
> >ps Personally I think it'd be better to use 30-sec peak power output (of
> the
> >batteries), instead of voltage, but that's a long discussion for some
other
> >day.
> >
> >On 6/3/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>
> >>New voltage divisions are very a good idea. As higher voltage packs
> >>appear at the track, it is smart to have more divisions to keep them
> >>from all bunching together in a single category.
> >>
> >>Three important subject areas were not addressed in your
> >>announcement, however.
> >>
> >>1) What happens with the existing "A" voltage records? Will they be
> >>re-assigned? When (if) these existing records are moved, will "second
> >>place" records, previously set, move into their place? If folks have
> >>the proper documentation, will records set in the past be allowed in
> >>these new categories?
> >>
> >>2) How will the voltage of other battery types be placed within these
> >>divisions? The voltages in these divisions were designed for
> >>"nominal" lead-acid voltages. The measured open-circuit voltage of
> >>fully-charged lead-acid batteries is actually 13/12 times these
> >>numbers. Would that be the voltage used for chemistries different
> >>than lead-acid, or would some other formula be used?
> >>
> >>3) Doesn't the NEDRA charter require a 30 day member comment period
> >>before new rules go into effect? Since this new rule was just
> >>announced, shouldn't the members have 30 days to comment before it
> >>becomes official? To whom would members send their comments? Where
> >>would the member comments be listed? Where would the answers to the
> >>comments be listed?
> >>
> >> Bill Dube'
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>At 05:11 AM 6/3/2006, you wrote:
> >> >NEDRA is pleased to announce two new Voltage Divisions. Effectively
> >> >immediately, we are adding two higher voltage divisions for a total
> >> >of 12 in all. This means that there are more record setting
> >> >opportunities for higher voltage vehicles beginning at the Power of
> >> >DC event, this weekend at Hagerstown, Maryland. Please see the Power
> >> >of DC site at http://www.powerofdc.com for all event details.
> >> >
> >> >We are seeing a major trend at the track toward higher voltages, so
> >> >we wanted to provide some additional divisions for these higher
> >> >voltage competitors. As the previously highest voltage division was
> >> >designated "A", these two new divisions will be designated "A2" and
> >> >"A3" respectively.
> >> >
> >> >All the NEDRA voltage divisions are currently based on multiples of
> >> >nominal 12 volt batteries.
> >> >
> >> >New NEDRA Voltage Divisions
> >> >----------------------------------
> >> >Division A3 - 349 Volts and above
> >> >Division A2 - 301 Volts - 348 Volts
> >> >Division A - 241 Volts - 300 Volts
> >> >Division B - 193 Volts - 240 Volts
> >> >Division C - 169 Volts - 192 Volts
> >> >Division D - 145 Volts - 168 Volts
> >> >Division E - 121 Volts - 144 Volts
> >> >Division F - 97 Volts - 120 Volts
> >> >Division G - 73 Volts - 96 Volts
> >> >Division H - 49 Volts - 72 Volts
> >> >Division I - 25 Volts - 48 Volts
> >> >Division J - 24 Volts and below
> >> >
> >> >All NEDRA record setters and record breakers receive a pair of
> >> >Oakley Sunglasses.
> >> >
> >> >See you at the races!
> >> >
> >> >-Ken Trough
> >> >NEDRA Public Relations
> >> >
> >>
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This film looks great. How do we go about seeing it here in the UK? Anyone
know?
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Marvin Campbell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 5:35 AM
Subject: Who Killed The Electric Car?
I just went to a screening of this movie and it ROCKS!
Funniest part for me was the guy from the petroleum producers association
saying that electric cars were a terrible mistake that we must NEVER
REPEAT
(guffaw!)
S. David Freeman figured very prominently as well. Neon John should know
him
as he used to work for the TVA.
Of course Rev. Gadget's in there as well. God...whatta ham! That guy
certainly gets around. Where does he find the time to do all this stuff?
Oh
yeah, he's got no kids. That explains it:^O
If you can see this movie, do it. I think it's out in general release June
28th. If you're out in the "real world" (i.e., not NY/LA) call your local
movie theatre and ask them to show it. It's being distributed by Sony
Classic Pictures.
MarvyMarv
Culver City, CA
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter Shabino wrote:
> ASM has the same short hand (even macros)
Absolutely true. I didn't mean to imply that C was superior because it
supports macros, just illustrating how its already superior readability
could be improved that much further.
My main point is to illustrate that while assembly requires one to know
(and worry about) details such as which status flag to test following an
operation (such as XOR, etc), and to define branch labels, etc. in order
to do this sort of simple logic flow, the C approach allows the
programmer to focus on the task at hand. This results in fewer lines of
code that the programmer must write and debug, and allows what code he
does write to be more easily read and understood in terms of the task he
is trying to accomplish (rather than being obfuscated with all the
details of what steps a particular micro may have to perform in order to
accomplish the task).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi folks,
I asked about Trojan T-1275s a while back and Roger Stockton said
"The T1275 delivers 70-75Ah at the 1hr rate." This would be a
significant improvement over the capacity of my Dynasty DSC-100Ls. I
had hoped to get about 50-60 Ah and instead I seem to be getting
about 30-35 Ah. I called my local Trojan retailer and he has never
heard of the T-1275 and couldn't find them anywhere in his
catalog. 13 of these look like a much easier fit in my Civic than 18
T-875s so I was wondering if anyone could point me to a Trojan
retailer that can get them. Hopefully shipping wouldn't be too expensive.
I can get the T-875s or US Battery 8VGCs locally, which would be a
big plus, but the fitting 18 into my Civic is going to be a real
challenge. Right now I have no batteries behind the rear axle, so I
actually managed to end up with a slight forward weight bias. With
the 8 Volters it looks like at least three will have to go behind the
rear axle. :^(
I know I am going to loose some performance with the increased weight
and the more saggy flooded batteries, but the added range and
hopefully longer battery life would be a real plus.
Any comments or suggestions? Anyone have the 1 hour rate for the 8 Volters?
Thanks,
Mike Chancey,
'88 Civic EV
Kansas City, Missouri
EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
position. (Horace)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Stay tuned. Rich Rudman at Manzinito Micro is on the verge of coming up
with a kit to convert your hybrid to a plug-in hybrid. Way cool and if
my guess is right way cheaper than other current propositions.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike Chancey wrote:
> I called my local Trojan retailer and he has never heard of the
> T-1275 and couldn't find them anywhere in his catalog.
They are a new product, so may not appear in his paper catalog yet.
Can he find the J150 in his catalog? Same specs as the T1275, but with
real SAE posts instead of the low profile ones on the golf-car oriented
T1275:
<http://www.trojanbattery.com/Products/ProductSpec.aspx?Name=J150>
The J150 has been a "featured product" on Trojan's site for quite some
time, so hopefully your retailer has had time to hear of it...
FWIW, the T1275 is listed as a golf car battery and the J150 shows up
under floor machines (in case that helps your local retailer navigate
his catalog ;^).
> I can get the T-875s or US Battery 8VGCs locally,
> Anyone have the 1 hour rate for the 8 Volters?
US Battery's site has great capacity info:
<http://www.usbattery.com/pdfFiles/USB%20Ampere%20Chart.pdf>
The US8VGC is rated 100Ah C/1, the US8VGCHC ("High Capacity") is 105Ah
C/1.
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
While I'm still a week or two away from being roadworthy in my pickup I'm
already looking ahead to my next battery pack after I murder the UB121100's.
NiFe (Edison)batteries look awfully tempting in a variety of ways. With
tolerance for overcharging, undercharging, and being run flat they seem to be,
if not idiot proof, at least idiot resistant. High cycle volume before
replacement not only helps amortized cost, but also the hassle of replacing a
pack frequently. So - all that's good. Problems seem to be so-so capacity to
weight ratio, gassing, frequent water replenishment needed, and sag under load.
The water and gassing part can be dealt with, but the sag is potentially a
deal breaker. Paul G. says: "like many NiFe batteries these things have
severe voltage sag over 200 amps" The importer's website charts indicates
serious sag at 1C - which is about 200 amps at the sizes they advertise.
So my question is, is voltage sag directly proportional to amp hour capacity?
If a 200 AH battery sags at 200 volts, does a 100 AH battery sag at 100 volts
or 200? Can you work around the sag by parallelling strings or using a higher
voltage pack of lower AH units working through a controller with current
multiplying capacity like a Zilla? Is there any way short of a buffer pack of
stiffer storage (like small hawkers or large ultracaps) which can offset this
one unfortunate quality of the NiFe battery? Or does anyone know?
(An aside - the NiFe batteries have a lot of peripheral appeal on other
factors as well - non-toxic parts being pretty high on the list.)
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In this review, Roger Ebert shames the reader who doesn't think global
warming is real and begs him to try to come up with an excuse why he
wouldn't see the film. Strong statement. Review mentions hybrids. No
mention of EVs.
http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060601/REVIEWS/60517002
- Peri Hartman
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My apologies to the list for posting substantially the same request twice.
Three days after posting my message "Xebra (or..?) advice for FIL", it
just showed up in my inbox as part of Digest #5544, dated June 4th
(today's the 7th).
I had figured the original post was simply lost in the ether, and so
posted again with updated information. My apologies for any
inconvenience or annoyance!
What's up with the digests? The others typically show up in order
without much of a delay - is this a list problem or was it more likely
on my end?
- Patrick
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well like one example is that memory space is divided up amongst a
number of banks, because there aren't even enough bits in a standard
size assembly instruction to address all possible memory locations. So
you set the bank register (essentially it's like the most significant
bits of the address you need) with one instruction and specify the rest
of the address in the instruction which acts on that address.
Typical newbie mistake is to have the wrong bank selected. Honestly,
not a really big issue here though. In C we always just say we want to
read/write a reg and it'll always make the appropriate instruction(s) to
handle the Bank Select register as part of that line of code.
Danny
Roger Stockton wrote:
Peter Shabino wrote:
ASM has the same short hand (even macros)
Absolutely true. I didn't mean to imply that C was superior because it
supports macros, just illustrating how its already superior readability
could be improved that much further.
My main point is to illustrate that while assembly requires one to know
(and worry about) details such as which status flag to test following an
operation (such as XOR, etc), and to define branch labels, etc. in order
to do this sort of simple logic flow, the C approach allows the
programmer to focus on the task at hand. This results in fewer lines of
code that the programmer must write and debug, and allows what code he
does write to be more easily read and understood in terms of the task he
is trying to accomplish (rather than being obfuscated with all the
details of what steps a particular micro may have to perform in order to
accomplish the task).
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks - Sure enough, it's logisystems
(http://www.logisystemscontrollers.com/index.html)
I just spoke with Jim down there, and he told me that he may be able to
get it back up and running for << the Curtis rebuild price ($700 or so),
and can increase the current and voltage (750-900A, 156V). I'm going to
pack it up right away!
- Craig
-----Original Message-----
From: Lawrence Rhodes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:08 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
I thought Golftech was out of business. Logisystems in TX is doing
repairs
now. They also claim to be on the verge of offering new 156vdc
controllers.
Lawrence Rhodes.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2006 11:04 PM
Subject: Re: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Peter Shabino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, June 07, 2006 12:24 AM
> Subject: RE: Zilla Z1K - Best Choice?
>
>
> > So what are you going to do with the dead body?
> >
> > Sorry but my dumpster diveing side is kicking in ;)
> >
> > Don't throw it away. I think Golf Tech fixes them, as well as
Curtis,
> themselves? I think thery upgrade them for more amps, but it isn't
cheap.Hit
> them up on line.
>
> Seeya
>
> Bob>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike
If the language is what worries you and you knew basic. Then go download
a FREE demo of one of the basic compiler for Pic's. PicBasic, Proton,
Mikrobasic
all have a demo version with the full version being quite reasonable. These
are
not interpreted basics but compiled so they are for most applications just
as
accurate as any other language. (flame proof suit on) It's only when you get
into critical timing issues that you need to use assembler or even C. We had
one project where we slogged through the asm code for two weeks and it
wasn't
quite right but we had to test the hardware. Took all of 20 minutes to write
and compile the basic "test" version. Turned out it worked just fine for all
the timing issues and ended up being used. That was a bit of an eye opener
for us as we were sure it wouldn't hack it.
Kit149B programmer is $18, I have and use it like crazy. Add $7 for a Ziff
socket (Zero Insertion Force) to make life easy.
If you are thinking of playing with Pic's go to Microchip and order some
samples if you can. If you can't get them from there if you aren't a
business
EBay usually has most types of pic's. If you see them in groups of 3 then
chances
are they ex Microchip samples.
There are some places where analog design is cheaper but then you loose the
ability to easily make changes. Depends on a lot of factors. Not just $$.
Dave
> Being able to install a lookup table etc would make my EV life easier.
> I only know ancient BASIC. So then I have to try and tackle C to get
> into uP's? I know there is the basic stamp, but I need something small
> like in an 8 pin DIP that I can learn to program. Is there a Pic or
> Atmel guide for pack smokin' Ultra Dummy's?
>
> A small uP would allow me to make a very adjustable and communicative
> bms as well as a monitoring system. Not to mention thermal fan hardware.
>
> Mike
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > On a side note about using PIC micro's There are loads of free
> > simulators, free software, and low cost build it yourself programmers
> > for PIC.
> >
> > One of the PIC books I got(mike or mark predo, ok but not great author)
> > comes with a board that you populate and links to free software, but I
> > found better software.
> >
> > windows :
> >
> > http://www.oshonsoft.com/
> >
> > this software is great for the price.
> >
> >
> >
> > linux : gpsim : http://www.dattalo.com/gnupic/gpsim.html
> >
> > C programming the PIC : http://www.yty.net/pic/
> > yapide : http://www.mtoussaint.de/yapide.html
> >
> > the list goes on, something about PIC microcontrollers fits with the
> > linux crowd.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
