EV Digest 5695
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: FAQ - batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Home made 3 phase AC motor (was Replacing motor can with lighter
material)
by Wayne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Replacing motor can with lighter material
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: ev - range analysis
by Doug Weathers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Covered wheels
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Isolation transformer
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Cap Based Battery Balancer
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Fried SSR
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: Batteries
by "David Roden" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) article: Valence's less-explosive lithium-ion batteries
by Paul Wujek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
by Jude Anthony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: ev - range analysis
by "Michaela Merz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Jet Electrica upgrade Hints Tricks Help
by Patrick Maston <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Cap Based Battery Balancer
by "Bill Dennis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: Covered wheels
by "Michael Perry" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: article: Valence's less-explosive lithium-ion batteries
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hi again, Matt.
I'm using the preset 1-3-4 switches. I just wish I could get that limit
light to come on and move to the second stage of charging. I *really*
don't want to murder this pack!
I bought a new voltmeter, and I've discovered that my E-Meter is
inaccurate. Sigh; more work.
I actually got the car moving today (more on that in a later post), so
I'm making little 1-4 mile trips and charging between. I'm hoping this
helps convince everybody to even up.
I didn't realize you have to test the regs. Two of my batteries, and
four or five of my regs, are essentially inaccessible. I'll have to
resolve that before I do too much more with this pack.
I sure hope I can make it to the Battery Beach Burnout! (Incidentally,
that's a much nicer name than "Power of DC", IMHO.) Unfortunately, I
can calmly and authoritatively assert that my Curtis won't let me burn
any rubber. It'll still be nice to hang with other people who
understand, though.
Jude
Matthew D. Graham wrote:
Hi Jude,
Glad to hear it's all coming together and the cables worked out!
No, you're not hurting your batteries, but I think you'll find it hard to
get them all equalized without manual (or automatic) charging of the
stragglers. These batteries can be brand-new, unbroken-in ones, so don't
consider them "bad" necessarily. As Joe and Rich have pointed out in the
past, you will find that depending on the level of charge current, a
straggler may shift from one battery to another; it won't always be
consistent.
After toasting two Orbitals during less-than-stellar runs at Power of DC,
now I have new ones that will hang out below 14V when the rest of the
batteries are between 14.6 and 14.8V. Without breaking them in, you can't
expect them to play nicely with the rest of the older batteries.
When there are significant differences between the states of health of the
batteries in the pack, as there inevitably will be, properly working regs
connected to your PFC-20 will still ensure that you don't _overcharge_ any
battery. An active, one-at-a-time battery charging system such as Lee's
Battery Balancer will more rapidly bring all batteries in line with one
another. Without one, though, you can use the regs to identify those
batteries that haven't reached their charging setpoints (red LEDs), measure
these batteries with a multimeter to find the ones with the lowest voltage,
then manually charge these to bring them in line with the others. Of course
you'll need a functioning multimeter and a battery charger for this! Keep in
mind, though, you may not drop all the batteries below the level at which
the red LED lights, so don't just rely on the LED to find lower voltage
batteries. On top of this, you'll find that a battery that's being regulated
to 14.8V while charging at 15 amps might drop down to say, 14.3V as charge
current tapers off to 1 or 2 amps. Then some other battery will be busily
regulating away.
Make sure you measure the voltage at which the reg fires for each battery
and adjust the pot so that they're maintaining the maximum voltage around
14.8V. I've seen some drift and at higher charging currents, this can be a
problem. At times I've seen some of my batteries climbing well above 15V
while charging at 15A or so, and this is a bad thing. I suspect some of the
regs are contaminated since they're fairly exposed, but either way, they're
slow to recognize and react to a high voltage event. At these higher voltage
and current levels, you can vent your sealed batteries (audible
popping/crackling sound).
In general, use a multimeter to verify that the regs are working as they
should. It sounds like everything's working fine, but you want to catch any
deviant reg behavior now before you continue to charge with it for long. By
the way, what switch settings are you using on the charger? I didn't see it
if you responded to Ralph's question.
Looking forward to seeing you and the car down here for Battery Beach
Burnout! (hint, hint) ;-)
Matt Graham
300V "Joule Injected" Nissan
http://www.jouleinjected.com
Hobe Sound, FL
-----Original Message-----
From: Jude Anthony [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, July 27, 2006 7:47 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
So it's really just a case of unbalanced batteries. In this case, I intend
to simply lower the voltage set point (as per Ralph's email), drive the car
a mile, and charge again. Then 5 miles round trip to the DMV, and charge
again.
If I can get it to stop running backwards.
I don't have any way to hand charge, but I'm not considering buying a 12V
charger. The PFC-20 had an internal light that was blinking in time to the
next-to-last reg, so I'm confident of the reg wiring (thanks again, Matt!).
I'll do more in-depth testing if I can't get those red LEDs off after 20 or
30 miles, and I'll watch the charging closely until I'm more comfortable
with it.
I may have a working EV today!
Thanks,
Jude
Rich Rudman wrote:
Nope!
you just are in Reg HELL!
That means you are doing your first euqlization stage.
All the full ones are full and banging against the charger correctly..
and you still have some weak ones coming on to full charge.
I some times fool them and bump the current to clear the last pesky
red leds. Crank amps to 0, Wait for the voltge sag.. hammer on full
amps for about 1 second.. the system over shoots them grabs control
again. This clears the Regs that are sitting at 14 something, and
change, But not a full 14.8.
If this persist check the voltage on the battery that just won't clear
it's Red LED.
Yellow... Umm Not gonna See it!. It only lights:
When A Dip sw 6 is turned on... for AGM equalization. Not recomended.
I use this to test the RegBuss cable integrity. Neat feature...
Or You have a battery that is below 10 volts and the charger is ON.
This would be a VERY bad thing to have happen. But...
The Yellow will only light on a Mk2B when the charger is powered
up. So seeing yellow while driving is not going to happen...
Unless... you add the LOW BATT trick circuit, that I have only made 3
of....
So.. forget the yellow while driving, go ahead and play with it on the
charger... All the yellows should light if they all really have good
data cables installed.
Oh yea.. other Reg tricks. The little header RT2 right by the RJs, if
shorted out...should tell the charger that reg is hot. The charger
should snap back to zero amps in about
2.5 seconds. Do this on the last Reg.. this checks that the Hot Reg Opto
and signal lines are compitent to the charger, and the RT2 short tests
the Low batt lines.
the other lines are power and gnd.. clearly if the led and the hot reg
sginal are active... Pwr and GND are also.
Get a meter on those last to clear Red LEDs... they could be trouble.
hand charge to 14.8 and less than 2 amps if you can. this should drop
them into line with the rest of the fully charged pack.
Gotta go..
I have Spiffy Manzanita Micro Charging systems sticker ready.. In
Seattle...
There goes the afternoon.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Wednesday, July 26, 2006 9:18 AM
Subject: Unexpected first charge with PFC-20
It's been a disappointing day.
I finally hooked everything up. That was cool. I only electrocuted
myself once, probably because my converter is a Todd, so it's always
ready to draw some current. Very minor.
I roasted a voltmeter trying to measure the resistance of the
emergency circuit breaker (to figure out why I electrocuted myself)
with all the batteries hooked up. More sparks! More knowledge. I
will learn from these mistakes.
My 12V battery was nearly dead. I had very weak lights, until I
closed the emergency circuit breaker. Then everything was nice and
bright.
Probably that converter doing its job. Unfortunately, several of my
Rudman MK2B regulators immediately reported undervoltage, but that's
no biggie.
But I couldn't get the wheels to spin. That was the big
disappointment. But I figured, hey, my batteries have been sitting
on the garage floor for nearly four weeks. Maybe they're too weak to
power the Curtis 1231C.
This is my first attempt to charge an EV. I tried to calibrate the
PFC-20, according to its instructions. Without a voltmeter, I
thought I'd have some serious problems. But then I remembered my
eMeter. It showed 147V, and this is a 144V pack of 12 YellowTops.
Maybe they aren't as dead as I thought. I figured charging them was
still a good idea, so I carried on.
The eMeter reports between -9 and -12 amps, which seems to indicate
good behavior. I'm charging from standard house current. After
about five minutes of adjusting the voltage upwards, the pack was at
160V or so, and the first regulator came on. I turned down the
current a bit to get it to turn off, and kept adjusting the voltage up.
It came on quickly.
I decided to leave it there and allow charging to continue, since I
hadn't seen the yellow limit light lately.
After about 30 minutes, another regulator started blinking green. An
hour and a half later, a few of the red ones have started blinking
green. There are still four red ones left, but the others seem happy.
It's the charger that's bothering me. All the blinking regulators
stopped at once, and the charger started flashing the blue timer
light without the yellow limit light. The manual seems to indicate
that means a regulator went over its max temp or something and the
charger started a timeout. It keeps happening every ten minutes or so,
though.
None of the regulators gets a yellow lamp, at least as far as I can
see; does the RegBus prevent that?
It's been nearly four hours now, so I turned down the current again
and turned the voltage up a bit. I won't let it go over 180V, but I
would like those red LEDs to turn off and get the regulators all
blinking green. I've still got three red ones.
I was expecting a quick ramp-up to 180V, followed by a finishing
charge. I'm getting this ten-minute pulsing. Is this expected
behavior for the calibration charge? Am I making another mistake?
Have I ($DEITY forbid) already murdered my first pack???
Thanks in advance,
Jude Anthony
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 23 Jul 2006 at 23:04, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> I'm considering a car that uses 13 Deka 8G27...
> I would like to get an idea just how
> expensive it would be to buy NiCDs for it.
Tom Hudson converted his Solectria Force from lead to nicad a few years ago.
The conversion diary is here :
http://portev.org/solectria/ho/nicad.htm
I don't recall whether Tom has anything in there about cost. In those days
it was nearly $9k (exclusive of shipping) for a Force-size STM pack. Prices
have increased appreciably since then, partly because of the seriously
weakened dollar, but I can't tell you how much.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I have several stepper motors very similar to that for a CNC project of my
own.
I was thinking more along a motor design like the "outrunners" that are very
popular with the R/C aircraft folks.
http://www.hackerbrushless.com/motors_a60.shtml
Seems you could build a low enough RPM motor if you used something like a
14" diameter version and feed direct into the tire. I'll play around a bit
more.
What I do not want to tackle is the design and construction of a controller.
Is there a selection of controllers for brushless/sensorless motor designs?
I have not found any yet. I have found some that sound interesting, but can
not confirm if they actually would work. Seems the low RPM stuff is odd
these days..?
Thanks for the input!
-Wayne
On 7/28/06, Arthur W. Matteson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Is anyone playing with brushless motors as a hub motor?
My Solar Car Team is using a New Generation Motors 10kW unit for the
rear-drive of a three-wheel vehicle. We haven't mounted it yet, though.
The motor was $8000 originally, and the controller about $4000. Somehow
the motor got damaged, even though we've never had a car, so it took a
few hundred dollars to get back to where we started. I wouldn't
recommend this company, personally...I think they're inexperienced. The
controller is acceptable but complicated, and the motor wiring is
sloppy. The motor does include an air-gap adjustment knob.
> I'm toying with the idea of playing with these for a proof on concept
for a
> full scale project, so any info would be great.
I have the perfect thing for that:
http://www.brigarelectronics.com/
Click on motors, then find "4118s-62-07" which is a "1.8 deg 24vdc step
motor" for only $4.95!
I ordered six of these for my homebuilt CNC mill's axes. They have a
lot of torque and produce *beautiful* sine waves when they're driven, 90
degrees out of phase. This is basically identical to something you
could spend a lot more money for. I would *strongly* suggest it for
anyone who wants to try brushless-DC at a low RPM. Inquire if you want
more details.
- Arthur
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
You might also be surprised at how heavy fiberglass is when you make
it strong enough to survive daily use and assorted little bumps etc.
Cheap fiberglass is certainly as heavy, or even heavier than steel. This
is what you find in fiberglass bathtubs, shower surrounds, boats, kit
cars, Corvette bodies, and other mass-produced consumer goods. It has a
low percentage of fiberglass, which is random-weave or thrown on with a
chopper gun. It's mostly polyester resin and filler.
The "good stuff" has a very high percentage of its weight in fiberglass
(or other fibers), a carefully organized woven weave, and is constructed
to minimize the amount of resin. Such parts are *far* lighter and
stronger than steel -- but cost a lot more!
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Jul 28, 2006, at 5:18 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
whoops i left off the constant in my range equation - should read
range[km] = 250 * battery_capacity[kWh] / weight[kg]^0.6
That's very interesting!
Do you have any of the raw data or graphs on the web? I'm curious to
see how close the formula fits the data.
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't.
Haifa 32000 Israel
phone 972 4 8293669
fax 972 4 8295755
--
Doug Weathers
Las Cruces, NM, USA
<http://learn-something.blogsite.org/>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Land speed racers use them -- so they must do good things for
aerodynamics.
<http://www.mooneyesusa.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=389>
--- Martin K <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have qualitative or quantitative data on how much power
> a
> small car can save by having covered wheel wells for example, the
> Honda
> Insight, and maybe a less aerodynamic car like a Cavalier?
>
> What about smooth hub-caps like some bicycle racers used to (do?)
> use?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Keep these ideas in mind:
.... A plug in kit is going to be 200 to 500 lbs of equipment in the trunk
of your Hybrid. One way or the other!
And there is no such thing, in 2006, as a cheap 10 Kwhr Lithium Battery
pack.
A buck a watt hour from Valence
More from A123 or Molicell.
Kokam... I don't know costs yet...
Quality Lead Acid is 35 Cents a watt hour. You can eat 3 packs and
still be cheaper than the cheapest Lion solution.
My system will totally protect the Add on packs, and will allow for %100 DOD
Safely.
Buy a lead pack now..
To get going, and to test out a system, lead-acid can be a
good idea. Lead also avoids the need for a cell-level BMS. They
certainly make a good, low-cost "learner" pack. For long-range, light
weight, trouble free operation in a PHEV lead-acid falls short, however.
I just shy of 30,000 miles on my flooded NiCad pack in my
Wabbit. Despite unspeakable torture by accidental overcharge, they
are doing just fine. I would get only about 8,000 from each pack of
Optimas, because I needed 80% capacity (or more) to make it to work
each day. If I had put in twice as many, they would have lasted much
longer, but they wouldn't hold a candle to the cycle life of the
Ni-Cads. I anticipate that this NiCad pack will last at least 50,000
miles, and I would not be surprised at 100,000 miles. The cost of the
NiCads is about 10 times the cost of the Optimas. They are likely to
last 10 times longer, and the car goes farther with the same battery
weight. Tough to cough up the cash at first, but a good investment if
you plan to drive the car every day.
Good quality Li-Ion cells have a fantastic cycle life. A123
cells will deliver 80% DOD for 2000 cycles. If you are willing to
live with 50% capacity, (like the cycle life rating for lead-acid)
you can get many times that cycle life from A123 cells. They decline
in capacity pretty much linearly with the cycles you put on them.
Li-Ion are indeed pricey, but you get your money's worth.
They have 4 or 5 times the capacity per pound than lead-acid. They
last 5 or 10 times longer.
Also, if you don't plug in the hybrid often enough (or the
car isn't re-programmed to regularly completely charge the
batteries,) you are going to be very unhappy with lead-acid in a
Prius. Without a finish charge on a regular basis, the cycle life
will be dismal.
Again, lead-acid is a good way to cheaply test a new plug-in
hybrid system, but is probably not the best choice for long-term
operation, or a commercial product.
Bill Dube'
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 06:12 AM 28/07/06 -0700, Dave Cover wrote:
I've been keeping my eyes open for an isolation transformer and ran across
this one. Does anyone
know if this will fit the bill? I intend to use it with a PFC-30. Here are
the details;
Powertronix BB-40100-B
input 200-240VAC
output 180-264vac
Would this unit NOT work with 110?
G'day Dave, and all
I went looking for this model transformer, but couldn't find it. I'd guess
by the model number (comparing to other Powertronix transformer models I
did find) that it may be only 100VA or so.
Any transformer will work at lower voltage, so yes, it would work at 110,
but it may not drive your PFC-30.
At "full noise" on 110 a PFC-30 (30A) requires 3.3kVA. However, since a
PFC-30 can operate at up to 240VAC (IIRC) you can get up to 7.2kVA. So
when looking for a transformer to use as an isolation transformer for a
PFC-xx charger, I'd be looking for a transformer that can be used to boost
the voltage to the PFC-xx that is within the current limits of your supply
in order to get faster charging (depending on pack voltage, of course).
E.g., if your 110VAC supply if 50A, then there is around 5.5kVA available.
to get a PFC-30 to use all of this, it would need around 185VAC. So, a
transformer that has a ratio around 110:185 would be about right. So a
240V:140V transformer used "back to front" (or any transformer that has a
combination of suitable taps) can be used. Since this will be a strange
voltage transformer, if you can find one surplus it'd be very cheap for its
kVA size. Just don't try and run a transformer for very long at voltages
higher than the design voltages (i.e. a 110:65 would have the right ratio
"back to front", but run that way would burn out).
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lewis, Brian K wrote:
That is an interesting thought. The document suggests that resistive
losses are very low in this design.
People naively think that a flying capacitor balancer is "100%
efficient" because ideal capacitors have no resistance, and so have no
resistive losses.
However, real capacitors *do* have resistance, called ESR (Equivalent
Series Resistance). So do batteries. And so do whatever devices you use
to switch the capacitors between batteries. The sum of these resistances
forms the "R" of the RC circuit that is being used to transfer charge.
If you go through the numbers, or make careful measurements, you will
find that about half your power is dissipated in these resistances. It
doesn't matter how low you make these resistance; a lower resistance
makes the peak capacitor charging/discharging current higher, which
increase the power lost in the resistances according to I^2R. Halving
the resistance doubles the peak current, which produces 4 times the peak
power -- but the charge/discharge pulse lasts half as long; thus you
come right back to the same power loss!
We've kicked this around extensively in the past, so you may want to
check the archives for more information. As for me, I've built flying
capacitor circuits, and carefully measured their performance, and found
them wanting. The actual efficiency is poor, and the rate of charge
transfer is too low to be useful with affordably-sized parts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jude wrote:
> If I can get it to stop running backwards.
Can you explain?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. wrote:
On Jul 27, 2006, at 7:58 AM, Grigg. John wrote:
I think I just blew my brand new SSR, its a 400V DC D4D12 Crydom module.
I wired it up to control my new IOTA DLS-220-55 to turn on when the key
is in the ignition. Turned on but it never turned off. The only thing
I can think of that might have fried the SSR was not installing the
Transient protection diode yet. With module unwired, there is 80 Ohms
of resistance across the output. I guessing this is bad?
I'm going to take a first guess. The surge input current was exceeded.
Its only around 48 amps for a few milliseconds. I wonder how much input
cap the Iota has?
That would be my guess as well. Switchers often draw *huge* inrush
currents, trying to charge their big input capacitors in a fraction of a
second. They put surge limiters in them, but they are just *barely* good
enough to squeak by without tripping a home 15amp breaker (which needs
over 50 amps to actually trip in a half-cycle.
If you're going to use a solid-state relay to switch the Iota (or other
switchmode supply), either drastically oversize the relay's current
rating, or use a precharge circuit, just as you would with a controller.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On 25 Jul 2006 at 13:02, Seth Rothenberg wrote:
> I also would like to price out Lead Acid.
Assuming this is a Force, I recommend sticking with the Deka Dominators.
They've proven to be very reliable and long lived in this application.
Solectria tested a lot of batteries before settling on those.
David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EV List Assistant Administrator
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Want to unsubscribe, stop the EV list mail while you're on vacation,
or switch to digest mode? See how: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" or "etpost" addresses will not reach me.
To send a private message, please use evadm at drmm period net.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
EV sized batteries:
http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/28/valences-less-explosive-lithium-ion-batteries/
--
Paul Wujek ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) h:(905)279-5885 c:(416)892-5885
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's in a Honda Civic Wagon. We had modified the brush timing for
reverse operation, then wired the field incorrectly. I had six reverse
gears, and one little forward gear.
Simple stuff; just swapped S1 and S2 on the Advanced DC 9" and
everything was good to go. With the exception of the tribulations in
the "Birth of Silent E" post.
Jude
Cor van de Water wrote:
Jude wrote:
If I can get it to stop running backwards.
Can you explain?
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jeremy:
You took the data from the EV-list? Hmm .. you would have to consider the
brag constant too.
BTW: Stay out of the way of those rockets :(
Michaela
> whoops i left off the constant in my range equation - should read
>
> range[km] = 250 * battery_capacity[kWh] / weight[kg]^0.6
>
>
>
> Jeremy Rutman
> Technion Physics Dep't.
> Haifa 32000 Israel
> phone 972 4 8293669
> fax 972 4 8295755
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi, Matt.
I have an Electrica that is based on the Dodge Omni, but I believe the basic
setup is similar to your car.
I would recommend installing two fuses in the main power wiring, one in each
pack, front and rear. This will protect the wiring (and you) in the case of a
short. These are available from Electro Automotive here
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/elec.shtml
Also, I'd switch out the emergency cutoff switch for a circuit breaker and
connect the cable to the breaker arm. This provides you with a third circuit
protector and allows you to make sure the circuit is open while you work on the
car. Heinemann breakers are available from EV Parts here
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/product_details.php?code=cb2410
Put an interrupter relay in the charging circuit so that the EV can't be
driven off while the cord is plugged in.
(8) 12V batteries? No wonder it was parked for 17 years! Change those out
to 6V golf cart batteries. You'll get much better range and they'll last a lot
longer.
If you go with a Curtis controller, make sure you provide adequate cooling
for it. Put a large aluminum plate on the back with heatsink grease in between
(you can also use the plate to mount your control components). You might also
want to add a finned heatsink to the backside of the aluminum plate and set up
a couple pancake fans blowing on the heatsink. If you would be satisified with
a 1221C controller, 120V, 400A, contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] He had several used
1221s for very reasonable prices. I have one in my car and it works well.
Do you have the Espar gas-fired heater? Tech manuals and online support is
available here: http://www.espar.com/htm/tecmans.htmI If you're ambitious, you
can install a ceramic heater in place of the original (Ford) heater core and
power it off the main pack with a contactor.
Move the shunt to the front and put it in the motor + lead. This will show
you what your motor amps are instead of battery amps.
Also, you might want to change the V and A gauges over to automotive-style
gauges. These are available from Electro Automotive @
http://www.electroauto.com/catalog/gauges.shtml
Put an inertia cut-off switch in the potbox microswitch lead to the
controller. This will make sure the controller is shut off in the event of a
collision. They are available here:
http://www.evparts.com/shopping/index.php?id=987
Change the transmission fluid to Redline MTL. This will reduce friction and
increase your efficiency and range.
If you want relatively low rolling resistance tires for reasonable prices,
consider Sumitomo HTR 200s. They're availabe from Tire Rack online @
http://www.tirerack.com/tires/Sizes.jsp?make=Sumitomo&model=HTR+200
Good luck with your project!
Blue skies,
Patrick
From: Matthew Milliron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
CC: "Schalles, Francis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Jet Electrica upgrade Hints Tricks Help
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 16:35:10 -0500
I have given up on the Jets original motor controller. It will be
May before I can afford a new one. I am going to redo the electrical
while I am waiting to buy. I would like suggestions on what to do to
the car while I am waiting. Planned so far.
1. Move the new controller from the back of the car to the front
closer to the motor.
2. Take the 3 phase charger out of the car and use it as a bulk
charger at night. This also gives me space for the controller and a
dc-dc converter in the front.
3. Put in the dc-dc converter.
4. Gang/opportunity charger goes in back next to the main battery
box.
5. Repaint and insulate the battery boxes. I found some spray on
tool coat at Harbor Freight.
6. Upgrade to 108 or 120 volt system.
7. Put in the Powercheq units.
8. Cover the long runs of 1 gage wire in PVC.
Anything else I have forgotten? Any hints from the Jet owners to make
this a better and easier upgrade?
R. Matt Milliron
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/702
My daughter named it, "Pikachu". It's yellow and black,
electric and contains Japanese parts, so I went with it.
Subject: RE: Jet Electrica upgrade Hints Tricks Help
Date: Thu, 27 Jul 2006 15:15:49 -0700
From: "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Other than cost, what would stop something simpler like the following from
working (I'm thinking specifically of Li-ion):
1) Put an Ultracapacitor in parallel with each cell.
2) Put a 1% resistor across each capacitor's terminals (ladder?).
Bill Dennis
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Lee Hart
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 6:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Cap Based Battery Balancer
Lewis, Brian K wrote:
> That is an interesting thought. The document suggests that resistive
> losses are very low in this design.
People naively think that a flying capacitor balancer is "100%
efficient" because ideal capacitors have no resistance, and so have no
resistive losses.
However, real capacitors *do* have resistance, called ESR (Equivalent
Series Resistance). So do batteries. And so do whatever devices you use
to switch the capacitors between batteries. The sum of these resistances
forms the "R" of the RC circuit that is being used to transfer charge.
If you go through the numbers, or make careful measurements, you will
find that about half your power is dissipated in these resistances. It
doesn't matter how low you make these resistance; a lower resistance
makes the peak capacitor charging/discharging current higher, which
increase the power lost in the resistances according to I^2R. Halving
the resistance doubles the peak current, which produces 4 times the peak
power -- but the charge/discharge pulse lasts half as long; thus you
come right back to the same power loss!
We've kicked this around extensively in the past, so you may want to
check the archives for more information. As for me, I've built flying
capacitor circuits, and carefully measured their performance, and found
them wanting. The actual efficiency is poor, and the rate of charge
transfer is too low to be useful with affordably-sized parts.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Uhhh Bill You let me take car of the AGM packs... in the PiPrius kit. I do
it better than most, if not all.
Actually.. most folks can't stomach the cost of Lions... And that's a real
problem.
Doubling the cost of your Hybrid is a Game OVER situation.
Hopefully, volume and packaging will come our way
Time will help also...
The A123 site says 4000 cycles... and more if you keep them in the right
temp range.
A123 could be considered immortal... compared any other real battery.
I just hope they really do what they claim.
So far...they do. With Spare change.
The PHEV projects don't need 100C lions... 5 C would do just fine...We would
like to trade Racing power for stored Kwhr and less cost.
They are so darn good most of us can't use what they really can dish out..
Some folks clearly accepted Bill,.. and Killacycle.
Trouble free operation???
Bet lead does the best for about 400 cycles.. then Well, we intend to Milk
the last cycle out of the lead... The system lets us really drain them and
not worry about a reversal event.
The Big question is what kills a pack ? a cell reversal because the pack was
taken too low? or just plain to much too deep a DOD drain.
My guess is the murder of Reversal is just as significant as long stroke
cycles. Since even with a couple of Kwhr left, you still get some gains..
and with a tank of Gas on board.. getting stranded is not a issue
I bet the Dead lead runs a LOT longer for most than is evident.
Clearly we will see about that. Hence the flogging of our test mule in daily
chores.
Commercial product?? Um my bet is we can burn up about 5 packs before the
cashflow meets the Lion investment.
Yea I love what I see on the Lions.. But lets be real brutal.. they have
only been in our hands for less than a year. On a 10 year product.. Not
even A123 has real 10 year shelf, Storage and cycle life data.
We do have curves for AGM PbLa.. and that is something you can take to the
Bank.
Until somebody hands me a pack to play with... I am not going to be fooled
by wishful thinking.
Also with installed kits.. adding advanced batteries.. and BMS equipment is
plug and play.
I dunno but I am sure we will see what works and the results.. Getting gear
installed and making a real difference in EV miles traveled and reducing C02
and cutting some Oil Co, profits.. the Point right?
Plus.. I need better mileage on my Escape Hybrid.. 32 Mpg and 400 mile range
is not enough. I want tire smoke AND 100 mpg.
Gotta Get Goldie ready for the trip to Portland... 3 months since I sprayed
a Orbital.. She is not healthy... and boy are the Regs going to get a
beating....
Back to wrenching on the Ride....
I do wish I could Tow Goldie with the Hybrid.. But they warn us not to. Just
like hauling a RX7 over Eisenhower Tunnel, Ain't real smart with a 3 liter
Ranger...
I need to let the ink dry on the power train warrantee...
Bill.... you may want to rethink Why I am not worried about unsung PbLa..
I don't connect the PbLa pack to the Hybrid pack... That would restrict the
PbLa to a incomplete charge cycle.. leading to as you say a very quick
death from the lack of
a full charge cycle..
You don't understand the system that the DC/DC or MMPHEV concept
employs.. We pump the Add on pack(don't care what chemistry) into the Hybrid
pack through a PFC40 charger.
This lets us NOT have to have the pack even closely matched in voltage or
capacity. Then we full charge the Add on pack with what ever BMS is
required. Regs for AGM, Full on cell by cell monitoring of the Lions,
Amphour tracking of NiCd.. or NiZn... or what ever. The point is with the
DC/DC you get to run the Add on pack in it's "best mode" The target Hybrid
battery, however has to be kept right where it has to be for operation of
the Hybrid.. Not too full not too empty and Not to hot or cold. The add on
pack can be flogged.. and full cycled.. Equalized.. Gassed, commissioned..
topped off.. Reged to the thousandth of a volt.. temp comped... What ever it
takes.
It's not critical to the safe operation of the Hybrid.. it just helps the
whole energy flow and stored power for transport. The more you get from the
Grid, the more you don't have to Buy from...er Over there.
See the logic??
And If you can get clear of the Fear of Heavy metal on the NiCds.. they
should make a really fine upgrade from lead Acid. But.. as you know there
are a few other things to track their state of charge safely.
Amphours and temperature come to mind...Not just voltage peaks. Saft says
don't even try unless you can tack Amphours. I tend to agree.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 4:20 PM
Subject: Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
>
> >
> >Keep these ideas in mind:
> >.... A plug in kit is going to be 200 to 500 lbs of equipment in the
trunk
> >of your Hybrid. One way or the other!
> >And there is no such thing, in 2006, as a cheap 10 Kwhr Lithium Battery
> >pack.
> >A buck a watt hour from Valence
> >More from A123 or Molicell.
> >Kokam... I don't know costs yet...
> >
> > Quality Lead Acid is 35 Cents a watt hour. You can eat 3 packs and
> >still be cheaper than the cheapest Lion solution.
> >My system will totally protect the Add on packs, and will allow for %100
DOD
> >Safely.
> >Buy a lead pack now..
>
> To get going, and to test out a system, lead-acid can be a
> good idea. Lead also avoids the need for a cell-level BMS. They
> certainly make a good, low-cost "learner" pack. For long-range, light
> weight, trouble free operation in a PHEV lead-acid falls short, however.
>
> I just shy of 30,000 miles on my flooded NiCad pack in my
> Wabbit. Despite unspeakable torture by accidental overcharge, they
> are doing just fine. I would get only about 8,000 from each pack of
> Optimas, because I needed 80% capacity (or more) to make it to work
> each day. If I had put in twice as many, they would have lasted much
> longer, but they wouldn't hold a candle to the cycle life of the
> Ni-Cads. I anticipate that this NiCad pack will last at least 50,000
> miles, and I would not be surprised at 100,000 miles. The cost of the
> NiCads is about 10 times the cost of the Optimas. They are likely to
> last 10 times longer, and the car goes farther with the same battery
> weight. Tough to cough up the cash at first, but a good investment if
> you plan to drive the car every day.
>
> Good quality Li-Ion cells have a fantastic cycle life. A123
> cells will deliver 80% DOD for 2000 cycles. If you are willing to
> live with 50% capacity, (like the cycle life rating for lead-acid)
> you can get many times that cycle life from A123 cells. They decline
> in capacity pretty much linearly with the cycles you put on them.
>
> Li-Ion are indeed pricey, but you get your money's worth.
> They have 4 or 5 times the capacity per pound than lead-acid. They
> last 5 or 10 times longer.
>
> Also, if you don't plug in the hybrid often enough (or the
> car isn't re-programmed to regularly completely charge the
> batteries,) you are going to be very unhappy with lead-acid in a
> Prius. Without a finish charge on a regular basis, the cycle life
> will be dismal.
>
> Again, lead-acid is a good way to cheaply test a new plug-in
> hybrid system, but is probably not the best choice for long-term
> operation, or a commercial product.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you have standard brakes, it might be a better idea to go w/ mag wheels.
(Properly designed, those help draw air across the brakes.)
----- Original Message -----
From: "Martin K" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, July 28, 2006 9:14 AM
Subject: Covered wheels
> Does anyone have qualitative or quantitative data on how much power a
> small car can save by having covered wheel wells for example, the Honda
> Insight, and maybe a less aerodynamic car like a Cavalier?
>
> What about smooth hub-caps like some bicycle racers used to (do?) use?
> --
> Martin K
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> EV sized batteries:
>
>
http://www.engadget.com/2006/07/28/valences-less-explosive-lithium-ion-batteries/
>
>
Just what the military ordered: a $2000 starter battery.
--- End Message ---
