EV Digest 5703
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Problems driving tach with a Zilla
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Tesla motor and controller
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: AC vs DC AGAIN?
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Want to build a sporty EV, AC is feasible too.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Solectria A/C compressor anyone? A bit of background
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: AC vs DC AGAIN?
by "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?)
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Fried a MK2B regulator?
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Goldie Lives!
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) GPS as a tool for EV driving
by TiM M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
by "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Soldering, (or improper welding,) will damage
these cells. This is likely why the RC folks are
not getting the best performance.
You have to weld the tabs on with the
most powerful tab welder that Unitek sells. You
need to weld them with over 4,000 amps and a very
short pulse. If you do it with a longer pulse and
less current, you will damage the cell by
overheating. There is no hope of soldering (by
ordinary means) without damaging the cells.
Bill Dube'
At 03:01 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
I play a little with multi cell lithium pack design and resistance
connection quality is a major argument.
Soldering or welding ? that is the question !
Some say soldering is better (wider contact surface) others say welding is
better (can't desolder from heating)
i'm still searching ...but soldering is easier and explain RC community
choice i suppose.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 AM
Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
>
> A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure contacts
> or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> you will not get what you were hoping for.
>
> The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the weakest link.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though still better
for
> >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> >
> >cordialement,
> >Philippe
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Nope. You can't solder these cells without
damaging them. They will still work, but the performance will be reduced.
You must weld these cells with very high
current and a very short pulse to keep the
heating to a minimum. Your goal is to fuse the
tab while injecting as little energy as possible.
Bill Dube'
At 10:35 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
In the R/C community homebrewed is soldered, factory purchased is
welded.
Either works if you do it right. I've soldered hundreds. If I had to
make enough EV class modules I would work very hard on perfecting
welding. I've welded .002" wire to another part, so how hard could it
be to weld a flat tab to a flat surface?
The one advantage I've seen many times in the field is that when a
soldered pack gets shorted so it overheats, the solder joints melt and
open circuit the pack.
Mike
--- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I play a little with multi cell lithium pack design and resistance
> connection quality is a major argument.
> Soldering or welding ? that is the question !
> Some say soldering is better (wider contact surface) others say
> welding is
> better (can't desolder from heating)
> i'm still searching ...but soldering is easier and explain RC
> community
> choice i suppose.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 AM
> Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
>
>
> > I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> > or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
> >
> > A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> > must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> > If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure
> contacts
> > or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> > you will not get what you were hoping for.
> >
> > The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> > with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> > and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the
> weakest link.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> > >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though still
> better
> for
> > >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> > >
> > >cordialement,
> > >Philippe
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:28 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
I read this point also:
-factory use welding because it's an automated process not because it's
better.
Not true. They lent us a very expensive
welder to put together the Killacycle pack. If it
were possible to connect the cells by less
expensive means (while maintaining performance,)
they would have had us do it that way.
You can't use a capacitive welder
because you don't want the energy under the tail.
The right welder is expensive. Folks
don't want to buy one, so they dream up reasons
why they can do it without one. Fact is, you need
a really expensive welder to connect these cells without losing performace.
Think about it. The same folks that are
saying that you can connect the cells without
using the right welder are the same folks that
are saying the cells don't perform up to specs.
We connected the cells with the proper welder and
they EXCEED the specs. The problem seems obvious to me.
Bill Dube'
A lot of RC hobbyist are using sub-c NIMH near hell limit (200A) with
soldering tabs and say they don't want welding at all.
I have read lots of different points and still found no test publication...
A tab welder is very easy to do (i make one so everybody can make one :^)
Simpler homebrew one is capacitor discharge welder:
a power supply charging a capacitor banks
Note: the less the voltage the more the capacitence: 20V and 500 000 uf is
ok
Use a SCR as a switch commanded with a "foot pedal" it connect sudently the
capacitor voltage to the 2 coppers spot contact.
or use a microwave oven transformer rewired with 3 or 4 turns 2/0 cable at
secondary...this give an AC spot welder
In all case take care...
BUT this said good spot welding (read making +200 reliable welded spot ) is
incredibly hard so as actually i'm in a hurry, no time to tun an homebrew
welder....i'm still soldering my 18650.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> In the R/C community homebrewed is soldered, factory purchased is
> welded.
>
> Either works if you do it right. I've soldered hundreds. If I had to
> make enough EV class modules I would work very hard on perfecting
> welding. I've welded .002" wire to another part, so how hard could it
> be to weld a flat tab to a flat surface?
>
> The one advantage I've seen many times in the field is that when a
> soldered pack gets shorted so it overheats, the solder joints melt and
> open circuit the pack.
>
> Mike
>
>
>
> --- Philippe Borges <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I play a little with multi cell lithium pack design and resistance
> > connection quality is a major argument.
> > Soldering or welding ? that is the question !
> > Some say soldering is better (wider contact surface) others say
> > welding is
> > better (can't desolder from heating)
> > i'm still searching ...but soldering is easier and explain RC
> > community
> > choice i suppose.
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 AM
> > Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> >
> >
> > > I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> > > or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
> > >
> > > A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> > > must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> > > If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure
> > contacts
> > > or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> > > you will not get what you were hoping for.
> > >
> > > The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> > > with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> > > and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the
> > weakest link.
> > >
> > > Bill Dube'
> > >
> > > At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> > > >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though still
> > better
> > for
> > > >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> > > >
> > > >cordialement,
> > > >Philippe
> > >
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
To draw over 135 amps per cell, you have to weld
on _TWO_ 0.015" thick nickel strips. No ordinary
tab welder can do this without overheating the cell.
Bill Dube'
At 01:01 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
As far as small NiCD, NiMH, and LiIon cells go
and making them into battery packs, welding is
the industry standard for many reasons. I spent
many years in the business, manufacturing and
designing battery packs. Trust me when I tell
you that welding is the way to go. The issue is
getting all that current through those tabs that
connect the cells. To get a good weld, you are
looking at a 0.005" x 0.187" Ni or Ni plated
steel strip. Much thicker, and you won't be
able to weld it. Welding wire on a cell is a
major pain. Again, trust me, I have done it too
many times. Off hand, I don't know just how
much current you can push through one of those
intercell tabe. I am thinking, maybe 5 Amps
continuous. Given that, why even bother with
anything larger than a AA cell (available in 2.1
AH capacity, that is a discharge rate of about
2.5 C), if you can only get 5 Amps per
string. That's a lot of strings. In my
prototype pack, still sitting in the garage, I couldn't pull
more than about 5 Amps. But I also had
thermal fuses all over tha place. For NiMH,
that is a good way to go (resettable thermal
fuses). For LiIon, you need to monitor the
voltage and percent of charge for each and
every cell. Today, there are commercially
available chips that can do that, but it is a
lot of money when you consider all those cells
in all those strings. My NiMH cellpack would
have had about 7000 AA cells in it. At lets
say $1 / cell, that's a $7000 pack. That is a
lot of connections! I don't know what the
going rate is now for these cells today. They
are out there in surplus, but you need to look around.
Steve
Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
In the R/C community homebrewed is soldered, factory purchased is
welded.
Either works if you do it right. I've soldered hundreds. If I had to
make enough EV class modules I would work very hard on perfecting
welding. I've welded .002" wire to another part, so how hard could it
be to weld a flat tab to a flat surface?
The one advantage I've seen many times in the field is that when a
soldered pack gets shorted so it overheats, the solder joints melt and
open circuit the pack.
Mike
--- Philippe Borges
wrote:
> I play a little with multi cell lithium pack design and resistance
> connection quality is a major argument.
> Soldering or welding ? that is the question !
> Some say soldering is better (wider contact surface) others say
> welding is
> better (can't desolder from heating)
> i'm still searching ...but soldering is easier and explain RC
> community
> choice i suppose.
>
> cordialement,
> Philippe
>
> Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]"
> To:
> Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 AM
> Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
>
>
> > I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> > or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
> >
> > A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> > must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> > If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure
> contacts
> > or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> > you will not get what you were hoping for.
> >
> > The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> > with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> > and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the
> weakest link.
> >
> > Bill Dube'
> >
> > At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> > >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though still
> better
> for
> > >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> > >
> > >cordialement,
> > >Philippe
> >
>
>
---------------------------------
See the all-new, redesigned Yahoo.com. Check it out.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dana,
Be sure you have the Speed Senser 1 green wire on pin #20.
Then in the option menu -
Turn on a) and turn off k) for reading RPM on Tach.
To test out you tack you could turn off a) and turn k) on for reading amps
on tach, which turns your tach to a motor amp meter. If this drives the
tack, the the circuit is good.
a) in the option menu is for the speed sensor 1. green wire connected to pin
#20.
You may have to use a tach adapter that converts information into a 12-volt
square wave signal. One is made by Auto Meter.
MSD also makes tack adapters for points, amplifiers and magnetic pickups.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dana Havranek" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Disc Grp" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 6:55 PM
Subject: Problems driving tach with a Zilla
> Hi everyone.
>
> I have been running into problems trying to get interface my VW New Beetle
> tach with the Zilla.
> I found the wire that drives the tach (pin 11 - thanks Don) and can drive
> it to just under 2000 rpm with a 12 V P-P sine wave. I guess the Zilla
> puts out pulses at 1 Volt P-P. (Don't assume I know what I am looking at)
>
> Or that's what I thought I saw in my moldy old scope, in the dark, because
> I can hardly see the trace anymore.
>
> Anyway, it looks like I need a circuit to make this work and I think I
> have seen it somewhere.
>
> If anyone can help or let me know if I'm on the right track, I would
> appreciate it much!
>
> I can build 'em but can't design them.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dana
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The Tesla is power by hardware licensed from ACP. All of ACP's
hardware has always been air cooled. One blower for the electronics,
another blower for the motor.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Jorg Brown" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> It isn't actually made by AC Propulsion, but shares nearly every
> feature: high regen, very high rpm, traction control. In the tZero,
> nothing is liquid-cooled, so I don't think it would need to be in the
> Tesla either... although the Tesla does go through some trouble to
> keep the LiIon batteries in a good temperature range - and they *are*
> liquid-cooled.
>
> See http://www.teslamotors.com/engineering/how_it_works.php
>
> jorg
>
> On 7/30/06, Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > What is the motor and controller used in the Tesla? Anybody have
any idea?
> >
> > It appears like the ACP motor based on its RPM range, I cannot
tell if it is
> > liquid cooled or not though...
> >
> > thanks
> > Don
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bill,
The RC and Battlebot folks are getting spec out of their soldered
packs with ease. We test the daylights out of them. When I solder them
I use very high heat for very short duration. The heat generated
during a high amp discharge gets these cells far hotter than I can
with soldering. If I could afford a tack welder like you have
described I would. These packs I work on were actually tested at NASA.
They are serious packs. soldering is not a horrible garage method of
assembling packs. Besides, honestly most people can't solder worth a
dang anyway. I think that is where most of the issue resides.
You said that a capacitive welder is not ok? Isn't that the only way
to get 4000 amps over a millisecond or so? Maybe firing a fet used as
a direct short? Under the tail?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Soldering, (or improper welding,) will damage
> these cells. This is likely why the RC folks are
> not getting the best performance.
>
> You have to weld the tabs on with the
> most powerful tab welder that Unitek sells. You
> need to weld them with over 4,000 amps and a very
> short pulse. If you do it with a longer pulse and
> less current, you will damage the cell by
> overheating. There is no hope of soldering (by
> ordinary means) without damaging the cells.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 03:01 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
> >I play a little with multi cell lithium pack design and resistance
> >connection quality is a major argument.
> >Soldering or welding ? that is the question !
> >Some say soldering is better (wider contact surface) others say
welding is
> >better (can't desolder from heating)
> >i'm still searching ...but soldering is easier and explain RC community
> >choice i suppose.
> >
> >cordialement,
> >Philippe
> >
> >Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> >quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> >Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> >http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 AM
> >Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> >
> >
> > > I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> > > or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
> > >
> > > A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> > > must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> > > If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure
contacts
> > > or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> > > you will not get what you were hoping for.
> > >
> > > The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> > > with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> > > and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the
weakest link.
> > >
> > > Bill Dube'
> > >
> > > At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> > > >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though
still better
> >for
> > > >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> > > >
> > > >cordialement,
> > > >Philippe
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If Otmar were part of the AC side there wouldn't be a "versus" argument ;)
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Death to All Spammers"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > 368 cars
> > 84 trucks
> > 81 bicycles, tricycles, and quadracycles
> > 70 personal transports, scooters, mopeds, and pocket bikes
> > 52 motorcycles
> > 30 gocarts and sidewalk cars
> > 28 enclosed motorcycles
> > 19 tractors
> > 16 racers and dragsters
> > 16 vans and minivans
> > 15 all terrain vehicles
> > 14 sport utility vehicles and 4x4s
> > 11 other
> > 9 boats and watercraft
> > 4 utility vehicles, service vehicles, and golf carts
> > 3 pushers and generator trailers
> > 1 neighborhood electric vehicle
> >
>
> 1 NEV? Aren't there thousands out there? Do listees feel ashamed to
> show their glorified golf carts along side those die-hard drag racers?
>
> P.S. - Otmar shouldn't be included in the "versus" argument, since he
> has mentioned making an AC system in the past, but has too much Zilla
> demand to play with anything else. Maybe in the future he can expand
> to AC and join up with the Madman to integrate the charger, too.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Mike Phillips wrote:
>
Better yet, the next time someone tries to sell you on
> how great AC systems are, strap him into a Zilla Z2K, DC powered EV,
> show them what 400 kw feels like, and scare the hell out of them!"
>
>
> See Ya......John Wayland
>
I love it!!
Sombody else just raced a Virtual AC car past Wayland...
We spent last night racing real 12second mustangs.. and beating them.. Not
the Salesmen's wish full thinking.
The Tesla Boys really do need to get some honest time slips in hand.. even
with paltry 60 Ft times I am sure thay make up for it at the fast end.
All really fast guys.. have a Ash tray full of real time slips...
Funny The AC Guys..know what we are talking about.. they don't want to have
us hand them a insult... We of course would love it!!
Tom Gage.. wouldn't take the bait.but he is a Good guy about it.. I
HAVE run the Tzero #1 with Lions in it... John would clearn it's clock.
But.. it's not slow at all, it just takes about 1.5 seconds it to really get
into the power.
This is a eternity at the track. They need a 2 speed tranny to get the most
from what they have.
Wayland should fear a ACP car with a tranny, Rear drive and sticky rubber
tires.
But.. Hey this is what Wayland already has with 800 ftlbs off the line and a
6000 usable range.. He gets over 6k, but not much torque up there.
Both AC induction and DC have the same Amp per torque curves.. If you can
source the amps. The DC controllers of the DCP fame and the Zilla can make
1000 to 2000 motor amps from a standing start.
Been there done That , have both controllers to my name.
A 2000 amp per phase AC drive would make a Zilla look weak and cheap. And
you would only need 1732 amps a phase to lay down the same watts.
That's the thing if we had a 1000 amp Motor side AC drive and the Same amp
DC drive... it would make for a Darn good fight.
The 1000 amp Ac Ddrive needs 6 1000 amp swtich stages. Thes are not cheap.
Say $880 for a pair. Need 3 1/2 bridges... for $2400 just for the silicon.
So.. there is a real reason why you don't see
1000 amp a phase drives anywheres outside of industrial drives I do know
of a Guy who has done 4000 amp a phase AC motor drives... So.. it has been
done...
One of these Days Otmar or I will show up with one that changes the rules..
but until then... DC still Rules. If you have to spend your own money.
It's a function of motor amps.. Not just volts. So.. 1/6 the cost to make
the same AMPs DC than Ac.
Brushes are not as limiting a factor as Your prefessers think... yea they
might limit us to stay under 1000 hp in less than a 500 lbs motor. But hey
that's still 3 times what we have ever done on a single motor.
Look around 3000 plus Hp DC motors still exist..They are not small!
Madman
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--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
At 12:28 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
>I read this point also:
>
>-factory use welding because it's an automated process not because it's
>better.
Not true. They lent us a very expensive
welder to put together the Killacycle pack. If it
were possible to connect the cells by less
expensive means (while maintaining performance,)
they would have had us do it that way.
You can't use a capacitive welder
because you don't want the energy under the tail.
The right welder is expensive. Folks
don't want to buy one, so they dream up reasons
why they can do it without one. Fact is, you need
a really expensive welder to connect these cells without losing performace.
Think about it. The same folks that are
saying that you can connect the cells without
using the right welder are the same folks that
are saying the cells don't perform up to specs.
We connected the cells with the proper welder and
they EXCEED the specs. The problem seems obvious to me.
Bill Dube'
Yea guys I will back this up!
You need a very fancy welder to do this right.
Any other way is foolish.
For all but the trained, buy the cells with the tabs already in place and
screw the tabs together..Like the Documents Show.
Don't have the Spec sheets??... Sorry.. I can't talk about it.
Call A123 or vist thier sight.
Madman
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Danny Miller wrote:
> Keep in mind that the EER is I think about 9-15 in these
> units, usually on the low side.
I'll have to take your word for it as I haven't come across any specs
for thesee particular units.
> A device consuming 20A @ 12v- 240W- would produce like 2500 BTU.
The math appears off somewhere; 21A @ 13.5V is that Carrier specs for a
76,000BTU condensor unit (the power consumption of the evaporator is not
stated):
<http://www.transportaircon.carrier.com/details/0,2806,CLI1_DIV8_ETI255,
00.html>
The self-contained rooftop AirV unit that I suggested is 13,500BTU and
is spec'd to consume just under 1500W, which is in line with the
2500BTU/240W you suggest.
> As
> Michaela noted, the 2000BTU range is not even a "noticible" amount of
> cooling in a road vehicle. It is impossible to get around the
> substantial electrical requirements for cooling for the large
> volume of A/C required in a road vehicle unless you bring the cold
> with you-bottles of ice.
Bear in mind that while you might argue the efficiency or input power
requirements of the units (or type of unit) I've suggested, they *are*
intended for automotive use and have appropriate cooling capacity for
the task. The self-contained roofmount units are intended to cool an
*RV*; I think one would do just fine cooling the cab of Michela's S10
;^> And at <$500 complete brand new I think it would be a more
attractive solution than buying all the bits of a complete factory A/C
system and then trying to squeeze them and some sort of homebrew
electric drive for the compressor into the limited space left after the
conversion.
The split systems have the advantage of 12 or 24VDC operation, but
appear to be available only in significantly higher capacity, which I
assume means higher cost also. Again, these are systems intended for
automotive applications (busses, armoured cars, etc.), so the cooling
capacity is there.
Cheers,
Roger.
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--- Begin Message ---
> Building an AC powered daily driver? It would have been much less
> likely I would have had all the motor issues I did with an AC drive
> car, but the option wasn't available. Now it is, but honestly, I
> just can't afford that. My budget demanded I stretch the dollar and
> that meant a used 8" ADVDC motor and a used Auburn controller. Would
> regen by nice? Heck yes. A brush_less system? Please, that was my
> number one source of problems, I would love to get rid of them. Was
> off the line performance an issue? No, I drive around with my Auburn
> set to "Economy Mode" (340 Amps) virtually all the time. Yes, when I
> need the pep a flick of the switch and I have the full 680 Amps, but
> I really don't need that for commuting.
>
> I have had two Solectria Forces, and selling mine was a huge
> mistake. Smooth, reliable, good range, energy efficient, they really
> had pretty much everything going for them, except for the lame Geo
> body. I do think my EV grin is wider when I drive my Civic though,
> but that is probably the difference between driving something you
> like and driving something you built.
>
> What with gas prices and what I hear in conversations with
> co-workers, I think that there are still a lot of folks who would be
> more than happy with a car just 96 Volt worth of batteries and a
> simple DC drive, say a Curtis and a 9". It would be hard to sell
> these folks on the added expense of an AC drive even with its other
advantages.
I agree totally. The only reason I have my Ranger is because a couple
brave souls made Ford's actions more public, so they threw past
leasees a bone with a $6000 price tag. I have neither the talent for
conversion nor funds for anything more expensive, so this is the only
way I could be commuting electrically.
Curtis controllers come as a 80v/550a AC or 80v/600a SepEx version
(ZAPI has similar offerings), so low voltage systems that have has
regen, built-in reverse, and programmability to be tuned for a variety
of motors are available, but I've only seen them mentioned a couple
times on the list. They are *not* the high voltage (or high cost) that
other AC systems run, but other than low power outputs, I don't know
their other limitations.
Interestingly enough, knowing how and when to coast gets me more
mileage than regen ever does, especially since Ford saw fit to allow
pretty low levels of amperage going both in *and* out of the pack!
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--- Begin Message ---
> Of course, big flooded lead-acid are the cheapest per W-hr, but I
> can't imagine those in a Prius.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
Niether can I But folks are asking about it.
There is a BIG sales difference when they hear how expensive the Lion pack
is...
It's almost a show stopper in all but a few very determined clients.
Letting them know that there are alternatives to the $10 pack, Then add the
real hardware to support it. Gets them back in the Sales mode.
It's a hard idea... and I find folks can do a LOT Of talking befor they
shell out the bucks.
As you 5 to 10 Kwhr of anything is not cheap.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
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--- Begin Message ---
Bill, if you look at the tabs.. it's clear they represent a very nice 100
amp fuse.. the milled notches are not there for good looks.
Yea We know...
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 4:18 PM
Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
>
> A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure contacts
> or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> you will not get what you were hoping for.
>
> The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the weakest link.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though still better
for
> >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> >
> >cordialement,
> >Philippe
>
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--- Begin Message ---
Yea, with a variable power supply and a scrap 12 volt battery.
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jude Anthony" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EVDL" <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 4:14 AM
Subject: Fried a MK2B regulator?
> I made more sparks.
>
> This time, it was from the shunt to the heat sink of a regulator. I'm
> not sure, but I bet I fried the regulator. It's red light went off,
anyway.
>
> I'm charging now, so if it starts blinking, I'll count myself lucky and
> check that it's regulating at the appropriate voltage.
>
> Is there a better way to test a MK2B regulator?
>
> Thanks,
> Jude Anthony
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yup that's for sure.
The battery pack up front was worth about 2 seconds..
It's gone now...
Need sticky up front and batteries that don't blow up at 750 amps.
I got half of one run, and blew a battery..
Short night at the track for Goldie.
The powered charger stack...like a stack of Amps behind Greg Lake or Kieth
Moon. Was awesome after dark.
First Ev race that had more charger and grid feed that all of us could use.
Yea 200 amps of 240.. and we never got over 75 amp of actual line feed.
3 PFC30. two PFC50B, and.
My PFC 30
Otmar's PFC30
Travis Raybolds,
Marko's
I think at one time we had $20K of green chargers visable if not on line.
Humbling... and Way too cool!
I am hoping I get some Photos, I was too busy racing and driving chargers to
get out my Camera
And yes I did finf my Cell phone..
Phew!
Madman
----- Original Message -----
From: "John Westlund" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, July 29, 2006 10:58 PM
Subject: Re: Goldie Lives!
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> >It would be nice if I had some nasty trick done to the
> >motor... but it's the same old 8 incher...sigh....
>
>
> Forget the motor. You need some suspension tweaks. There's
> no reason your car shouldn't be running low 15s or quicker
> as it is other than the fact that it's FWD and can't get
> shit for traction.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't seen it mentioned here before, maybe I
misses it, if so please ignore...
I've been using a GPS unit while driving my EV's
from day one. I started out with a GPS module that
plugged into my pocket PC. I graduated to a dedicated
unit that attaches to the truck and runs off the 12V
power source. The best feature these units have is the
avoid Freeway option. I can put in any address I want
and get routed there on surface streets alone. For the
shorter runs where power consumption doesn't matter
I'll take the freeways, bit for trips of any distance
the avoid freeways option is a real battery saver. My
standalone unit has an avoid button as well. It'll
figure out your route and show you a list of streets
it has selected, if one of them has a large hill you'd
rather not climb you highlight that street and hit the
avoid button. It'll reroute you around that obstacle.
Another neat feature is the ability to add points
of interest. I added a charging station category and
entered the GPS coordinates for all the Los Angeles
county Avcon charging stations. Now if I'm out and
about and running low on a charge I can select
charging station, nearest and it will direct me there.
This only works if you live in an area that has a
charging infrastructure :-(
If anyone out there is using the Magellan
Roadmate 700 and would like the file I created for the
Los Angeles charging stations let me know and I'll
send it to you. I only entered the sites that have the
AVcon chargers, the paddle stations don't do me much
good, which is a shame as there are many more of them
than there are of the AVcon variety around the city.
Speaking of charging stations, I stopped in at
the SCE Irvine facility for a charge on Friday, they
had a large round station with a AVcon head and
another large round plug with recessed pins mounted on
a gas pump type handle. I've never seen one of these
before, any idea what they were used to charge?
Unfortunately I didn't have my camera with me to snap
a picture of it.
TiM
'61 Electric Rampside
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Actually, the milled notches _are_ there for "looks". They are there
for the robot to look at to make sure the tab is right side up.
They carry 120 amps quite well. They are 0.015" thick
nickel. Not intended as a fuse.
At 10:16 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
Bill, if you look at the tabs.. it's clear they represent a very nice 100
amp fuse.. the milled notches are not there for good looks.
Yea We know...
Madman
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--- Begin Message ---
You will overheat the innards if you solder them.
They will still function, but they are damaged.
You are not allowed to bring any part of the
insides of the cell much over 100 C. No way you
can solder, unless you are using Woods metal or
some fancy Indium alloy. Even then, it would melt
when you pulled big current through the tab.
We had to figure out how to get 40 amps of three
phase in my garage to run the welder. It was a
monster welder. It is an "inverter" style power
supply. Big FETs with some caps, I'd guess.
The manufacturer tells you how to weld
them because it matters. They are very specific
on this requirement. Why do folks insist that
they know more about the cells (and how to
connect them) than the folks that make them?
You are going to pay many thousands of
dollars for an EV sized pack of these cells. If
you try to solder them together, you will damage
them, and then you will end up paying more than
the cost of having them welded correctly.
It costs about $0.60 per tab to have
them welded with the correct machine at a
commercial battery assembly house. Why ruin cell
that costs many times that amount?
Bill Dube'
At 10:49 PM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
Bill,
The RC and Battlebot folks are getting spec out of their soldered
packs with ease. We test the daylights out of them. When I solder them
I use very high heat for very short duration. The heat generated
during a high amp discharge gets these cells far hotter than I can
with soldering. If I could afford a tack welder like you have
described I would. These packs I work on were actually tested at NASA.
They are serious packs. soldering is not a horrible garage method of
assembling packs. Besides, honestly most people can't solder worth a
dang anyway. I think that is where most of the issue resides.
You said that a capacitive welder is not ok? Isn't that the only way
to get 4000 amps over a millisecond or so? Maybe firing a fet used as
a direct short? Under the tail?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Soldering, (or improper welding,) will damage
> these cells. This is likely why the RC folks are
> not getting the best performance.
>
> You have to weld the tabs on with the
> most powerful tab welder that Unitek sells. You
> need to weld them with over 4,000 amps and a very
> short pulse. If you do it with a longer pulse and
> less current, you will damage the cell by
> overheating. There is no hope of soldering (by
> ordinary means) without damaging the cells.
>
> Bill Dube'
>
> At 03:01 AM 7/30/2006, you wrote:
> >I play a little with multi cell lithium pack design and resistance
> >connection quality is a major argument.
> >Soldering or welding ? that is the question !
> >Some say soldering is better (wider contact surface) others say
welding is
> >better (can't desolder from heating)
> >i'm still searching ...but soldering is easier and explain RC community
> >choice i suppose.
> >
> >cordialement,
> >Philippe
> >
> >Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> >quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> >Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> >http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Sent: Sunday, July 30, 2006 1:18 AM
> >Subject: A123 Specs (was: Rich Rudman's PHEV project (?))
> >
> >
> > > I have tortured A123 cells on the bench and on the track. They meet
> > > or exceed the spec sheet in every way I have tested.
> > >
> > > A lot depends on how you connect to them, by the way. You
> > > must weld tabs to the ends with very pricey high-current equipment.
> > > If you attempt to draw the max power from them with pressure
contacts
> > > or improperly welded tabs, (or other less-than-optimal connections)
> > > you will not get what you were hoping for.
> > >
> > > The A123 folks know this and supply their evaluation cells
> > > with double tabs on each end. These cells put out a lot of current,
> > > and the tabs must be up to the task, or the tabs will be the
weakest link.
> > >
> > > Bill Dube'
> > >
> > > At 03:45 PM 7/29/2006, you wrote:
> > > >RC fellows disagree: A123 are not as good as claimed though
still better
> >for
> > > >their usage than NIMH and 3/4 time than lipoly.
> > > >
> > > >cordialement,
> > > >Philippe
> > >
>
--- End Message ---
