EV Digest 5728
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jukka_J=E4rvinen?= <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) East Penn Cranking Amps was (Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack)
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) 93 Toyota p/u Acceleration
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Redneck Hybrid
by Danny Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) re:Still having weird driveline problems
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Still having weird driveline problems
by "Mark Grasser" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
by "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) EV list - The math for a 1000 mile pack
by Jeremy Rutman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Still having weird driveline problems
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Do I have a bad potbox?
by Mark Hastings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Still having weird driveline problems
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: East Penn Cranking Amps was (Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack)
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Do I have a bad potbox?
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: organic vs Metalic Brakes
by Ralph Merwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) RE: Still having weird driveline problems
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Naa.... No time for hacking. So I have to use my own charger. 3,2 kW.
Kinda waste to have 2 chargers onboard.
I got the hacking going through the service outlet below the dash. It
offers the route to communicate with the car ECU, but protocol is weird.
If I only could get the specs...
So I have the sockets, cabling to my BMS CPU and no time to hack it. It
is basicly the only obstacle to not provide Lion kits for PSA cars.
-Jukka
Philippe Borges kirjoitti:
Hi Jukka
do you hacked the ECU ? or are you charging off ECU board ?
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
Speed has been about 80-90 km/h (50-55 mph). Trip has taken over 10
hours since I drive regulary to inlaws 100 km (60 miles) and spend a day
in there and drive back. Usually I do charge to keep DOD shallow but
have been driving with some test gear on too. So done that without
charging also.
Few times I have taken other route back and visited other relatives. It
adds the trip to quite exact 250 km (156 miles).
The GPS function can be also programmed to record the route. It would be
fun to see how the Ahs go along the route. Should I consider some other
more economic route .. Stuff like that.
This van can still hold even double amout of energy in its trunk. Just
for a test drive. Now I'm updating it to new set of cells and will add
it up to 50 cells. Same 200 Ah Li-Co cells. Newsest BMS in it too.
Charger will be upgraded too from ~2kW up to 3,2 kW.
Only shitty thing with this car is that it has only 2 seats. Rest of the
family has to take the diesel car to get there. Whatta waste!
-Jukka
With new set of lions in a much lighter car (Elcat) ~200 Wh/mi was
recorded.
In current condition it still has something else to offer than just
range. (1k Zilla + 36*150Ah Li-Fe)
http://www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
With sweet AC system on it like Victor has in his CRX I would expect
much better readings. 160 Wh/mi should not be just a dream.
This small van has been used to deliver goods and I have recollection
of 26 kWh/100 km figures (433 Wh/mi). And that was stop and go driving
with heater full on during winter with spiked tires and full load.
Original batts were SLAs.
Personally I believe that one of the biggest reason for such interest
on EVs again comes from the uncertainity of oil. It's not secure to
rely on such energy source. Gas (95 oct) was 1,4 per litre. (I think..
haven't needed it for looong time.)
-Jukka
fevt.com
Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
guestimated?
Man, I want one.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
240Wh/mile.
Ask the list what people is averaging.
Victor
Mike Phillips wrote:
What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at
250wh/mile?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <ev@> wrote:
No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
There are no technical/engineering issues.
BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average
"normal".
To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
We do what we can.
Victor
Ryan Stotts wrote:
cowtown wrote:
I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi
between
fill-ups?
I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal
compared to
a pack recharge.
EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more
than
most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it could
go
100mi";
This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40 mile
range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems
from
the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and has
gone
on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the
thought of
someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with a
car
that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a
charger
before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an
F150..
It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd
build one
just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it
can
be done(have done it).
--
Jukka Järvinen
R&D Director
Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
11100 RIHIMÄKI
FINLAND
VAT ID: FI18534078
jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
mobile +358-440-735705
phone +358-19-735705
fax +358-19-735785
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David,
The Deka EV/Golf Car 6-volt 8GGC2 batteries are rated @ 585 CCA at 0*F (They
don't give a 32* rating). Are you saying these whine
at 300A?
The Deka (East Penn) Dominators (Gel) rate 8G24 @ 575 CA, 8G27 @ 700 CA, and
the 8G31 @ 780 CA at temps of 32*F.
The Deka (East Penn) SeaMates and Intimidators (AGM) rate 8A24 @ 660 CA, 8A27 @
810 CA, 9A34 @ 860 CA, 9A31 @ 1000 CA, at temps of
32*F.
The big rigs up here use the 9A31 Intimidator almost exclusively as an SLI
battery. That (and quantity order) is why I got such a
good deal on them. I have just over 1000 miles on them now in 2 months. 1 time
they hit 105*F after preheating in the sun and
then a fast trip home. Other than that they've never seen over 102*F. The
Zilla Data I've been pulling shows intermittent 1000A
draws for a few seconds at a time at the top of a shift and briefly when the
PWM on the controler is at 100%. This is only twice
for a few seconds at a time during a HARD acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gears.
I've been checking the torque on the posts and they
have yet to get hot.
>On 5 Aug David Roden wrote:
>This is generally but not universally true. There are some AGMs with
>relatively limited current capacity, and the good old reliable East Penn gel
>batteries get unhappy at anything over about 300 amps.
>>On 4 Aug 2006 at 5:58, Death to All Spammers wrote:
>> SLAs will survive high current better than GCs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Curtis,
As Mr. Spammers pointed out your Curtis is only capable of 144Vx500A/742=92
H.P. If your gas engine put out that much then your
acceleration would probably be comparable.
Going up from there would be just as everyone has recommended, upsize your
controller to handle more of both volts and amps. You
can get maximum motor amps and still go easy on batteries by going with a
higher pack voltage. Say for instance that even with
the pack at full sag your pack voltage is still higher than your motor limit of
160 V, then the controller can pulse width
modulate the current from the batteries at an average rate less than what is
being put into the motor. Take a look at some of the
simulations I ran at lower voltage and current limits on my Zilla at
http://home.gci.net/~saintbernard/
Also to, as was stated by David Roden, once you fix the 1 barrel carburator
problem your next limit will be the batteries capacity
to source current. One solution is to go with Gels or AGM's. Yes its true as
was stated that the Gel's typically have lower
current ratings than the AGM's but differences are ~800A vice ~1000A. Just for
an example my '88 Mitsu p/u
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/756 weighs 4060 lbs. 1100 lbs of that is 16
9A31 AGM's. This is a 192V pack with ~68AH at the
1-Hr rate (guestimated). My range is 40 miles to 80% DOD and I don't get passed
by any cars getting on the highway. Now say you
already found a bigger controller. If you still wanted your 50 mile range you
could build a pack of 20 Deka 9A31's and your
battery weight would drop from 1700 lbs to 1380 lbs. With the 240V pack your
batteries would no longer limit you on your
acceleration. You would have full rated current to your motor at whatever
voltage the controller decides it needs to give that
current. Also with 240V you may never sag to the point where the controller
goes to full 100% PWM. If I were to guess it might
only hit 80% on a fresh pack, and in that case even Gels could be a good fit.
The gels would give you better cycle life than the
AGM's, but neither will be near your Trojans could provide. So for the
maintenance free'ness of the SLA's (both Gels and AGMS are
subsets of the group called Sealed Lead Acid) you would give up cycle life.
The Gels would give you better cycle life, the AGM's
give you more current capability.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Curtis Hollingshead
> Sent: Thursday, August 03, 2006 7:32 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: RE: The math for a 1000 mile pack
>
>
> Hello.
>
> My EV ('93 Toyota p/u) uses 24 Trojan T-145s (144V), and has a range of
> 50mi.
>
> I would love to reduce the weight as the batteries alone weigh 1700+lbs.
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a maintenance-free, light weight
> battery solution with reasonable cost?
>
> I'd like to eliminate watering the batteries, and not have to worry about
> hydrogen offgassing, and if able to reduce the weight of my vehicle I could
> increase my range significantly.
>
> Also my acceleration sucks. I'm usually passed by at least 6 or 7 vehicles
> before I can get up to speed in traffic.
>
> Is it better to hammer the pedal, draw more amps at first to get up to
> speed, or take 'er easy and baby it up to speed taking much longer?
>
> I'm running a Curtis controller, and ADC 9" motor, that I thought should be
> able to have my EV screaming down the road....? So either something is off,
> or the weight in the bed of the truck is holding me back.
>
> Not sure how the big boys are able to achieve the tire smoking power they
> do.
>
> Suggestions/thoughts?
>
> Many thanks.
>
> Curtis.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Funny pic of a redneck hybrid:
http://www.boners.com/grub/795393.html
Boners has some NSFW content on their site, but not at this particular link.
Danny
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I haven't been following this thread closely, but this sounds like an AC
set up?
I would check the connections to the position encoder and/or for a loose
phase connection.
The slow reverse when fwd could be a form of single phasing or lost
position encoder information. ???
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On most transmissions the tail shaft housing is mounted to the rear bearing
plate. In this plate is the rear bearing of the transmission gearset. It
sounds like you might be moving the bearing and thus the main shaft of the
gear set back and forth. With the fork holder you are talking about being
stationary to the case it would be changing gears as the assembly moves back
and forth.
What would I do. The easiest thing to do, and you will need to do it anyway,
would be to remove the drive shaft and then grab the tailshaft of the
transmission with a large pair of pliers and see if you can move the tail
shaft fore and aft. You should not be able to move it at all. I am betting
you can move it back and forth a half an inch.
Grasser
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 9:40 PM
Subject: Re: Still having weird driveline problems
Tom Carpenter wrote:
Is this a limited slip rear axle???
No, but I have more information.
This evening I took the truck for another drive. Drove it pretty hard to
try and trigger the problem. Finally it happened as I was going to coast,
hit the smallest of little bumps after a lot of speed bumps and normal
driving.
The symptom is this: As long as the car is moving, it rolls along but any
attempt at power basically seems to result in a stalled motor situation.
When it stopped (rolled into a gas station) the same problem: Car moves
forward a little bit then shudders and wants to go backwards a bit.
At the station was an honest to goodness person with another Chevy truck.
We shared stories, and he got under it while I hit the gas. His report was
that the drive shaft would turn one way when the car went forward, then it
would chatter the other way once it was banging.
So the problem has to be in the transmission. His thought was that the
sound came from the transmission first, then reverberated down the drive
line. According to his chevy trained ear it sounded "like the car was in
two gears at once".
Now, I know the Prizm has the transmission locked into a single gear by
some sort of a plug stuck in the manual transmission spot where the shift
lever went. My guess is this held the forks. Maybe the same thing is in
the S10, and it's loose or something?
There is about 1/2 inch of clearance between the drive shaft and the
transmission.
When I jumped on the back the first time nothing happened. I did it again
and did hear a "click" that sounded odd. Then after a phone call I hopped
in the truck, fired it up, and drove home without a hitch.
What the heck is happening? Anyone have a pointer to how to tear down a
S10 manual transmission? This is not something I am looking forward to...
Chris
Tom
----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Zach"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:35 PM
Subject: Still having weird driveline problems
Ok, this is getting weird. I took the 94 S10 truck over to the dump
today. Loaded the bed with some sticks, junk, and the like, nothing
serious. Truck runs fine.
Went over some railroad tracks bump bump bump (hard). Truck then spins
the motor without the wheels. Pull over, massive thunking from the
driveline when I try to go forward or reverse. Look under the truck, the
main axle doesn't seem to be screwed up, but is moving in fits and
starts.
Very fustrated, floor it. Truck shudders a *LOT* and in forward starts
to go backwards. In reverse it starts to go forwards (as in crawls
barely). Great-ola.
Call wife, walk to corner to get street names for tow truck. Walk back,
when I get to the truck I climb on the rear bumper and jump up and down
in fustration. Rear of truck goes up and down. Get in truck, start up,
drives flawlessly. Drive rest of way to dump, drive home. On last leg
home I put the truck in 1 (max regen) and tried to break it by flooring
it, then letting off (loading the driveline with max power, followed by
max regen). Not even a click or a clack.
What the heck is going on? I know it's not time that fixes the truck;
last time this happened it was dead as doornail even in the driveway.
After dropping the U joints and replacing them it was still weird till I
jacked up one side then the other. Then it magically started working
again.
Is it possible the differential is blown? Anyone know much about these
things?
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date: 8/4/2006
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hey Robert,
ThunderSkys are the cheapest EV lithiums you can get. (at the moment)
(Just check the prices on Safts or Kokams, or if you really want to give
yourself a heart attack, A123s)
If the purpose of this project is to increase your electric range, you
might be better off getting a pack of (something with better range than
lead) in your little yellow beastie.
It'll probably work out cheaper since you won't need to get a new motor,
adapter, controller, charger, etc.
I think that lithium will be the only way you will get the range you are
after on a motor bike and still have it weigh a reasonable amount, and
even then I am dubious.
Most of the EV bikes I've seen are very low range compared to cars.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Chew
> Sent: Sunday, 6 August 2006 6:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Motorbike trying to get 100km
>
>
> Yo Dudes and Dudette's
>
> I have just started on my next EV project. Suzuki GSX250 (big bike).
>
> I want the damn thing to go 80-100 km's Definately can't use
> Leads so i want
> to use Nicads or Nimh, Can't afford lithiums at the moment,
> unless there is
> an alternative to the thundersky batts which are too damn expensive.
>
> The only option i see at the moment is tieing up little D or
> F cell NimH,
> but then, it'll be too expensive anyway buying those individually.
>
> Anyone going to buy some lithiums in bulk please let me know,
> i would really
> want to get a 10 kWhr pack for my bike.
>
> ANy inputs?
>
> Cheers
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
communication protocol with ECU OBD is "simple" it's an PSA sole owner one,
real problem is it differ from what we would like to have: firmware
modifications access (max current level, low votlage cut-off, charging
algorythm etc.)
i'm still working on finding the right people who have access to these, not
simple but i hope i will succed.
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 9:45 AM
Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> Naa.... No time for hacking. So I have to use my own charger. 3,2 kW.
> Kinda waste to have 2 chargers onboard.
>
> I got the hacking going through the service outlet below the dash. It
> offers the route to communicate with the car ECU, but protocol is weird.
> If I only could get the specs...
>
> So I have the sockets, cabling to my BMS CPU and no time to hack it. It
> is basicly the only obstacle to not provide Lion kits for PSA cars.
>
>
> -Jukka
>
>
> Philippe Borges kirjoitti:
> > Hi Jukka
> >
> > do you hacked the ECU ? or are you charging off ECU board ?
> >
> > cordialement,
> > Philippe
> >
> > Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
> > quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
> > Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
> > http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Jukka Järvinen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 7:38 AM
> > Subject: Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack
> >
> >
> >> Speed has been about 80-90 km/h (50-55 mph). Trip has taken over 10
> >> hours since I drive regulary to inlaws 100 km (60 miles) and spend a
day
> >> in there and drive back. Usually I do charge to keep DOD shallow but
> >> have been driving with some test gear on too. So done that without
> >> charging also.
> >>
> >> Few times I have taken other route back and visited other relatives. It
> >> adds the trip to quite exact 250 km (156 miles).
> >>
> >> The GPS function can be also programmed to record the route. It would
be
> >> fun to see how the Ahs go along the route. Should I consider some other
> >> more economic route .. Stuff like that.
> >>
> >> This van can still hold even double amout of energy in its trunk. Just
> >> for a test drive. Now I'm updating it to new set of cells and will add
> >> it up to 50 cells. Same 200 Ah Li-Co cells. Newsest BMS in it too.
> >>
> >> Charger will be upgraded too from ~2kW up to 3,2 kW.
> >>
> >> Only shitty thing with this car is that it has only 2 seats. Rest of
the
> >> family has to take the diesel car to get there. Whatta waste!
> >>
> >> -Jukka
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>> With new set of lions in a much lighter car (Elcat) ~200 Wh/mi was
> >>>> recorded.
> >>>>
> >>>> In current condition it still has something else to offer than just
> >>>> range. (1k Zilla + 36*150Ah Li-Fe)
> >>>>
> >>>> http://www.fevt.com/videos/IVO_burnout.MPG
> >>>>
> >>>> With sweet AC system on it like Victor has in his CRX I would expect
> >>>> much better readings. 160 Wh/mi should not be just a dream.
> >>>>
> >>>> This small van has been used to deliver goods and I have recollection
> >>>> of 26 kWh/100 km figures (433 Wh/mi). And that was stop and go
driving
> >>>> with heater full on during winter with spiked tires and full load.
> >>>> Original batts were SLAs.
> >>>>
> >>>> Personally I believe that one of the biggest reason for such interest
> >>>> on EVs again comes from the uncertainity of oil. It's not secure to
> >>>> rely on such energy source. Gas (95 oct) was 1,4 per litre. (I
think..
> >>>> haven't needed it for looong time.)
> >>>>
> >>>> -Jukka
> >>>> fevt.com
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Mike Phillips kirjoitti:
> >>>>> That's seriously amazing efficiency. These are actually measured not
> >>>>> guestimated?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Man, I want one.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Mike
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > wrote:
> >>>>>> Any passenger vehicle really. The best efficient ones are in fact
> >>>>>> about twice as good - 120-130Wh/mile is doable.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> My CRX with wrong tires and dragging rear brakes takes
> >>>>>> 240Wh/mile.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ask the list what people is averaging.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Victor
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Mike Phillips wrote:
> >>>>>>> What kind of vehicles are you referring to Victor that are at
> >>>>> 250wh/mile?
> >>>>>>> Mike
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Victor Tikhonov <ev@>
wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> No need. Make standardized swappable packs as cordless tools.
> >>>>>>>> You drill all day long but you don't wait for it it to recharge.
> >>>>>>>> You stick in fresh battery and depleted one can charge slowly.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> An EV is a big cordless tool. The second pack (and the first one
> >>>>>>>> for that matter) doesn't have to be yours, it can be leased
> >>>>>>>> and swapped at any "gas" station quicker than it takes to refuel
> >>>>>>>> ICE. It's only a matter of establishing infrastructure.
> >>>>>>>> There are no technical/engineering issues.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> BTW, 500Wh/mile is about twice power consumption as average
> > "normal".
> >>>>>>>> To cover 1000 miles you'd need "only" 250kWh pack, but it is
> >>>>>>>> drop dead 100%DOD at the end. Just 5% bigger pack would
> >>>>>>>> give you extra 50 miles to get to the nearest swap station.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> This has been discussed before. No one is interested to
> >>>>>>>> implement it, people only understand dollars. No one will
> >>>>>>>> do it even chocked to death from smog while gas is cheap
> >>>>>>>> and available. Sometimes it's good when a govt can mandate
> >>>>>>>> something [like this, or like ZEV], but it's dreaming.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> We do what we can.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Victor
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Ryan Stotts wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> cowtown wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> I agree! But how many people have an ICE that can go 1000mi
> > between
> >>>>>>>>>> fill-ups?
> >>>>>>>>> I agree, but the ice refuel time is not that big of a deal
> >>>>> compared to
> >>>>>>>>> a pack recharge.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> EVers say "we can give you a car that goes 40mi, which is more
> > than
> >>>>>>>>>> most people go in a day", and the public says "maybe if it
could
> > go
> >>>>>>>>>> 100mi";
> >>>>>>>>> This is the resistance I constantly run into when vying for EV
> >>>>>>>>> acceptance. A high 90 something percentage of the time, a 40
mile
> >>>>>>>>> range EV would fit nearly every ones needs. The problem stems
> > from
> >>>>>>>>> the ice owners current vehicle that has the capability to and
has
> >>>>> gone
> >>>>>>>>> on longer trips. They feel "threatened" and scared by the
> >>>>>>>>> thought of
> >>>>>>>>> someone taking away their gas powered car and replacing it with
a
> >>>>>>>>> car
> >>>>>>>>> that can only go so far between the hours it has to be on a
> > charger
> >>>>>>>>> before it can go again. Everyone I have spoken to about EV's is
> >>>>>>>>> terrified at the thought of "only" 40 miles of range.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> But the idea of a 1000 mile range Lion pack in the back of an
> > F150..
> >>>>>>>>> It's totally possible though right? If I had the money, I'd
> >>>>> build one
> >>>>>>>>> just to show the OEM's that look, yes it is possible and yes, it
> > can
> >>>>>>>>> be done(have done it).
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Jukka Järvinen
> R&D Director
> Oy Finnish Electric Vehicle Technologies Ltd
> Teollisuuskatu 24 A3
> 11100 RIHIMÄKI
> FINLAND
> VAT ID: FI18534078
>
> jukka.jarvinen(a_t)fevt.com
> mobile +358-440-735705
> phone +358-19-735705
> fax +358-19-735785
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
HI Mark,
I enquired about thundersky batts directly through their sales email. And i
was quoted aroun 12K for the pack i am after, 72 volt @200Ah. Wow!
the reason for building my motorbike is because i want another project!
My dad said a firm "No" to my clubman idea runnin a hybrid setup. Cause its
not my house and i should move out real soon cause my projects are starting
to take over the house!
So i said, if its not a car i gotta build the motorbike. Its sad to see a
good frame go to waste.
I was checking out the EL Chopper and E Ninja. They have reported good
ranges but i really doubt it that they get them. Scott Hogan gets around 26
K's from his 96 volt of Hawkers @ 26 Ahr. And i plan to upgrade the voltage
of my yellow beast so i will need a new controller so therfore i can recycle
the 72 volt alltrax to some good use along with the gauges, except the
ammeter from my yellow car.
I have just heard some terrible stories of thundersky batts and i am not
sure if i want to go that route. But then, prove me wrong.
Cheers
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: <[email protected]>
Subject: RE: Motorbike trying to get 100km
Date: Sun, 6 Aug 2006 21:16:33 +1000
Hey Robert,
ThunderSkys are the cheapest EV lithiums you can get. (at the moment)
(Just check the prices on Safts or Kokams, or if you really want to give
yourself a heart attack, A123s)
If the purpose of this project is to increase your electric range, you
might be better off getting a pack of (something with better range than
lead) in your little yellow beastie.
It'll probably work out cheaper since you won't need to get a new motor,
adapter, controller, charger, etc.
I think that lithium will be the only way you will get the range you are
after on a motor bike and still have it weigh a reasonable amount, and
even then I am dubious.
Most of the EV bikes I've seen are very low range compared to cars.
Mark
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert Chew
> Sent: Sunday, 6 August 2006 6:07 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Motorbike trying to get 100km
>
>
> Yo Dudes and Dudette's
>
> I have just started on my next EV project. Suzuki GSX250 (big bike).
>
> I want the damn thing to go 80-100 km's Definately can't use
> Leads so i want
> to use Nicads or Nimh, Can't afford lithiums at the moment,
> unless there is
> an alternative to the thundersky batts which are too damn expensive.
>
> The only option i see at the moment is tieing up little D or
> F cell NimH,
> but then, it'll be too expensive anyway buying those individually.
>
> Anyone going to buy some lithiums in bulk please let me know,
> i would really
> want to get a 10 kWhr pack for my bike.
>
> ANy inputs?
>
> Cheers
_________________________________________________________________
Thousands of jobs, millions of opportunities. Begin here!
http://a.ninemsn.com.au/b.aspx?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fninemsn%2Eseek%2Ecom%2Eau&_t=757263760&_r=Hotmail_End_Text_Jul06&_m=EXT
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I dont think anyone is going 1000 miles on a single charge
anytime soon.
My math for a 1000 mile pack -
assuming a 500kg base vehicle weight, you have
W = 500 + B/SE
where W is the total vehicle weight (inc. batteries), B is battery
capacity (kWh) and SE the specific energy of
the batteries (kWh/kg)
Using the Rutman Relation for range R [km]
R=250B/W^0.6
where again B is battery capacity (kWh) and W total vehicle weight,
for 1000 km range gives
R=250B/W^0.6=1000
one can now substitute this value of B into the 1st formula and solve for W.
Doing so you will get:
For 1000 km range
For Li-ion at 0.12kWh/kg you would have a final weight of 7,400kg
For NiMh at 0.07kWh/kg you would have a final weight of 25,770kg
And for Pb acid at 0.04kWh/kg you would find a final weight of 101,260kg
For 1600km (1000mile) range:
For Li-ion at 0.12Wh/kg you would have a final weight of 22,000kg
For NiMh at 0.07Wh/kg you would have a final weight of 81,200kg
And for Pb acid at 0.04Wh/kg you would find a final weight of 325,000kg
At total prices (batteries only ) for 1000 miles of between $760,000
and $1,040,000
I'll send a graph of range vs. batt weight soon to the yahoo site.
Its a vivid illustration of Amory Lovins' 'mass decompounding' but in
reverse...
confounding mass compounding!
This again is for 1000km range, which is only
From: "Robert Chew" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: RE: The math for a 1000 mile pack
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Hi my 700kg Fiat 126 gets 150 Wh/km with solar panels on top.
Cheers
Jeremy Rutman
Technion Physics Dep't
Haifa 32000
Israel
972 4 8293669
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The trans should be a Borg Warner T5. Probably not the WC (WorldClass)
version.
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Ryan Stotts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Christopher Zach wrote:
>
> > Anyone have a pointer to how to tear down a
> > S10 manual transmission?
>
> Does it look exactly like this?
>
> http://ddperformance.com/images/t5a.jpg
>
> Does it have the shifter still installed or a cover plate?
>
> What gear is it locked into?
>
> Take the 4 bolts loose at the shifter base and have a look in there.
> Don't bother with the ones around the top around that large cover
> plate on the top front of the trans. You have to pull the tail shaft
> housing loose to get that plate off(because of how the shift rod
> extends back and how the forks are attached).
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The potbox on my S-15 pickup is wired through the microswitch which I found odd.
With the microswitch off, my foot off the pedal, it presents the curtis with
5.2k ohms. It doesn't move so I'm thinking the curtis sees it as out of range
and doesn't go.
When I push slightly and get the microswitch off it goes right up to 1.4k ohms.
At maximum the potbox is at 2.7k ohms.
If I bypass the microswitch it starts out at 800 ohms which is enough to spin
up the motor. The reason I found all of this out was that I was hoping to put a
1k ohm resistor parallel to the potbox when in reverse.
I never measured a potbox before but I always assumed 0-5k meant it starts at 0
then maxes at 5K which seems to match what the curtis manual says. Am I stuck
just buying a new one or is there some adjustment for this if it is off?
Thanks,
Mark Hastings
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
This is highly unusal Christopher. Sounds like the drive shaft is popping
out of the spline but I've never heard of one popping back in. There would
have to be an extremely large bump to have it come out. Maybe the splines
internally poped out (still stayed in the shaft)and your jumping on it got
it to go back in. That's the only thing I can think of. Maybe the
replacement you put in changed the length of the shaft&/or spline. That
might explain it. The spline must move with the up and down motion of the
suspension yet stay in the shaft to drive the shaft. Lawrence........
----- Original Message -----
From: "Christopher Zach" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 9:35 AM
Subject: Still having weird driveline problems
> Ok, this is getting weird. I took the 94 S10 truck over to the dump
> today. Loaded the bed with some sticks, junk, and the like, nothing
> serious. Truck runs fine.
>
> Went over some railroad tracks bump bump bump (hard). Truck then spins
> the motor without the wheels. Pull over, massive thunking from the
> driveline when I try to go forward or reverse. Look under the truck, the
> main axle doesn't seem to be screwed up, but is moving in fits and starts.
>
> Very fustrated, floor it. Truck shudders a *LOT* and in forward starts
> to go backwards. In reverse it starts to go forwards (as in crawls
> barely). Great-ola.
>
> Call wife, walk to corner to get street names for tow truck. Walk back,
> when I get to the truck I climb on the rear bumper and jump up and down
> in fustration. Rear of truck goes up and down. Get in truck, start up,
> drives flawlessly. Drive rest of way to dump, drive home. On last leg
> home I put the truck in 1 (max regen) and tried to break it by flooring
> it, then letting off (loading the driveline with max power, followed by
> max regen). Not even a click or a clack.
>
> What the heck is going on? I know it's not time that fixes the truck;
> last time this happened it was dead as doornail even in the driveway.
> After dropping the U joints and replacing them it was still weird till I
> jacked up one side then the other. Then it magically started working
again.
>
> Is it possible the differential is blown? Anyone know much about these
> things?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Although not published in the technical literature, the tech reps as East
Penn say one should not exceed 250-300 Amps with the Deka East Penn 8G34. If
this current is exceeded too often it will drastically affect the life of
the battery.
Not much of an issue for my car, as it is (a) a commuter, and (b) high
voltage (@312V nominal, this gives me 78kW of acceleration).
For a 1/4 mile car an AGM would be more suitable.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Willmon
Sent: August 6, 2006 1:28 AM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: East Penn Cranking Amps was (Re: The math for a 1000 mile pack)
David,
The Deka EV/Golf Car 6-volt 8GGC2 batteries are rated @ 585 CCA at 0*F (They
don't give a 32* rating). Are you saying these whine at 300A?
The Deka (East Penn) Dominators (Gel) rate 8G24 @ 575 CA, 8G27 @ 700 CA, and
the 8G31 @ 780 CA at temps of 32*F.
The Deka (East Penn) SeaMates and Intimidators (AGM) rate 8A24 @ 660 CA,
8A27 @ 810 CA, 9A34 @ 860 CA, 9A31 @ 1000 CA, at temps of 32*F.
The big rigs up here use the 9A31 Intimidator almost exclusively as an SLI
battery. That (and quantity order) is why I got such a good deal on them.
I have just over 1000 miles on them now in 2 months. 1 time they hit 105*F
after preheating in the sun and then a fast trip home. Other than that
they've never seen over 102*F. The Zilla Data I've been pulling shows
intermittent 1000A draws for a few seconds at a time at the top of a shift
and briefly when the PWM on the controler is at 100%. This is only twice
for a few seconds at a time during a HARD acceleration in 2nd and 3rd gears.
I've been checking the torque on the posts and they have yet to get hot.
>On 5 Aug David Roden wrote:
>This is generally but not universally true. There are some AGMs with
>relatively limited current capacity, and the good old reliable East
>Penn gel batteries get unhappy at anything over about 300 amps.
>>On 4 Aug 2006 at 5:58, Death to All Spammers wrote:
>> SLAs will survive high current better than GCs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Mark,
The potbox should normally read from 0 to 5k ohms. Sometimes you may get
one that may start out at 1 to 4990 or something like that.
To adjust the pot, just loosen the screw on the lever, so it will stop
against the stops at the ohms reading you want.
I have mine set at 1 ohm at off and 4999 ohms full on. My controller comes
on at 150 ohms, so there is some movement of the accelerator linkage before
it gets there. This allows me to have a soft start instead of a jerking type
of start if you are right at the start point.
The Curtis potbox which is wire through the micro switch is normally use for
slow speed fork lifts of golf carts. It allows for very little movement of
the accelerator linkage and limits the speeds of these rigs.
For a EV you can by pass this limit switch if the micro switch is not use to
turn on and off a main contactor. Sometimes these limits switches are used
to activate a main contactor first before applying power to the motor
controller, thus providing a quick emergency power off system.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Hastings" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 06, 2006 8:40 AM
Subject: Do I have a bad potbox?
> The potbox on my S-15 pickup is wired through the microswitch which I
> found odd.
> With the microswitch off, my foot off the pedal, it presents the curtis
> with 5.2k ohms. It doesn't move so I'm thinking the curtis sees it as out
> of range and doesn't go.
> When I push slightly and get the microswitch off it goes right up to 1.4k
> ohms.
> At maximum the potbox is at 2.7k ohms.
>
> If I bypass the microswitch it starts out at 800 ohms which is enough to
> spin up the motor. The reason I found all of this out was that I was
> hoping to put a 1k ohm resistor parallel to the potbox when in reverse.
> I never measured a potbox before but I always assumed 0-5k meant it starts
> at 0 then maxes at 5K which seems to match what the curtis manual says. Am
> I stuck just buying a new one or is there some adjustment for this if it
> is off?
>
> Thanks,
> Mark Hastings
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Paul G. writes:
>
> Any opinions on what to replace asbestos drum brake pads with? Full
> metallic is out as the buggy brakes are usually cold. I don't need
> increased load capacity as the buggy is lighter than the stock VW
> Beetle by 400 lb. The plan for this winter is to rebuild the front
> suspension, steering, and brakes. All these parts are getting quite
> old.
Paul,
I don't have a suggestion for a replacement material, but Ott's Friction
Supply in Portland, Oregon would be a good place to talk to. Their web
page is http://www.ottsfrictionsupply.com/ They can reline your pads
with all sorts of material. I had them reline a pair of drum brake shoes
for an old motorcycle and they did nice work.
Ralph
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Chris, this may not apply to the S10 transmission, however I have had a
similar problem with an Austin A series transmission. Basically the set
screw for the gear selector fork became loose causing the fork to slip. This
is a common problem with Austin A series transmission. The transmission was
basically locked into second gear. Using any other gear caused the whole
thing to lock up.
Ask at a local transmission place. No need to commit, but they may have
some useful information. They may be able to do a diagnosis for free.
Another option is it pick up a used tranny from a wreckers and pop it in.
You can also repair it at home with the proper tools and a bit of patience.
Manual transmissions are not as complex as some people say, just pay close
attention to proper tools and proper procedures (it's actually fun!)
Go to the library, find a repair manual or your truck and review the
procedure for removing the tranny, diagnosis and repairing it. See if any
special tools are required. See how much work you have to do before you can
get at the selector forks.
Good luck
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Christopher Zach
Sent: August 5, 2006 6:41 PM
To: [email protected]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Still having weird driveline problems
Tom Carpenter wrote:
> Is this a limited slip rear axle???
No, but I have more information.
This evening I took the truck for another drive. Drove it pretty hard to try
and trigger the problem. Finally it happened as I was going to coast, hit
the smallest of little bumps after a lot of speed bumps and normal driving.
The symptom is this: As long as the car is moving, it rolls along but any
attempt at power basically seems to result in a stalled motor situation.
When it stopped (rolled into a gas station) the same problem:
Car moves forward a little bit then shudders and wants to go backwards a
bit.
At the station was an honest to goodness person with another Chevy truck. We
shared stories, and he got under it while I hit the gas. His report was that
the drive shaft would turn one way when the car went forward, then it would
chatter the other way once it was banging.
So the problem has to be in the transmission. His thought was that the sound
came from the transmission first, then reverberated down the drive line.
According to his chevy trained ear it sounded "like the car was in two gears
at once".
Now, I know the Prizm has the transmission locked into a single gear by some
sort of a plug stuck in the manual transmission spot where the shift lever
went. My guess is this held the forks. Maybe the same thing is in the S10,
and it's loose or something?
There is about 1/2 inch of clearance between the drive shaft and the
transmission.
When I jumped on the back the first time nothing happened. I did it again
and did hear a "click" that sounded odd. Then after a phone call I hopped in
the truck, fired it up, and drove home without a hitch.
What the heck is happening? Anyone have a pointer to how to tear down a S10
manual transmission? This is not something I am looking forward to...
Chris
>
> Tom
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Zach"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[email protected]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 05, 2006 12:35 PM
> Subject: Still having weird driveline problems
>
>
>> Ok, this is getting weird. I took the 94 S10 truck over to the dump
>> today. Loaded the bed with some sticks, junk, and the like, nothing
>> serious. Truck runs fine.
>>
>> Went over some railroad tracks bump bump bump (hard). Truck then
>> spins the motor without the wheels. Pull over, massive thunking from
>> the driveline when I try to go forward or reverse. Look under the
>> truck, the main axle doesn't seem to be screwed up, but is moving in
>> fits and starts.
>>
>> Very fustrated, floor it. Truck shudders a *LOT* and in forward
>> starts to go backwards. In reverse it starts to go forwards (as in
>> crawls barely). Great-ola.
>>
>> Call wife, walk to corner to get street names for tow truck. Walk
>> back, when I get to the truck I climb on the rear bumper and jump up
>> and down in fustration. Rear of truck goes up and down. Get in truck,
>> start up, drives flawlessly. Drive rest of way to dump, drive home.
>> On last leg home I put the truck in 1 (max regen) and tried to break
>> it by flooring it, then letting off (loading the driveline with max
>> power, followed by max regen). Not even a click or a clack.
>>
>> What the heck is going on? I know it's not time that fixes the truck;
>> last time this happened it was dead as doornail even in the driveway.
>> After dropping the U joints and replacing them it was still weird
>> till I jacked up one side then the other. Then it magically started
>> working again.
>>
>> Is it possible the differential is blown? Anyone know much about
>> these things?
>>
>>
>> --
>> No virus found in this incoming message.
>> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
>> Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.7/409 - Release Date:
>> 8/4/2006
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
