EV Digest 5768
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted
for NY state fleet.
by Joel Hacker <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) What does it take to convert a truck?
by "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) opinion on charger
by "jmygann" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) more stopping power? no vacuum
by "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: more stopping power? no vacuum
by Bruce Weisenberger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: more stopping power? no vacuum
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: My ICE Costs
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: more stopping power? no vacuum
by "BFRListmail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: My ICE Costs
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Bye for now
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) UNSUBSCRIBE EV Ryan Plut
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: My ICE Costs
by "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) DR. IRIS OVSHINSKY, ECD OVONICS CO-FOUNDER, VICE PRESIDENT AND DIRECTOR,
DIES
by "Dave Davidson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: converting a Holden Combo / Barina
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Range calculation
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you search the document, nobody ever mentioned a PFC40.
I think they meant, since it was an overnight plugin, that
you might be able to develop a low-power solution that was
power factor corrected (Like your other chargers) that you
could mass produce and sell for pennies on the dollar compared
to some of your higher end chargers...
I.E. mabye a PFC2 or a PFC3 ???
Rich Rudman wrote:
Cheaper PFC40HM..???
I don't think so....
The meter and the thermal spreader and the 40 amp breakers and the #6 gage
wire from end to end...
Doesn't make for cheaper anything.
This charger is one serious chunk of gear.. it's the heart of PHEV power
processor and the trick high speed grid feed charger.
This enables 20 minute recharges... a key feature for REAL world useable
EVs.
We could use a few 100 unit orders to get the price down... But that's still
in the future.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:55 AM
Subject: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for
NY state fleet.
Hi Mike, Madman and All,
When I posted this I was thinking Madman or
others would go for just the $100,000 developement grants,
not nessasarily the final contract. As someone with a plug
in hybrid already built, Madman would likely win a
development grant. Maybe there is a grant writer that would
take him on on the list?
This could be used to make a specialized PFC
charger at a lower cost as it wouldn't have to work over
such a range as his PFC's now do and pay for
reseaching/hacking the hybrids computers, ect.
If nothing else one could end up with a couple
of plug in hybrids and better retro fit kits for sale!!!
Free money is hard to find.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Rich Rudman" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Subject: Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape
wanted for NY state fleet.
Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:59:17 -0000
What a kickass project that could be for real money too.
With politics pushed aside, do you think you could keep up
with demand? "We need 8 units for beta, in 3 weeks!" kind
of stuff.
Man, I'm so looking for a better job than I have now and
this would be
it. Dream on...
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Yes I would love to have the 10Megga bucks from the
Empire State.
My guess is the big money guys have already made the
phone calls and locked
it down..
Meanwhile... I have a Bunch of PiPrius kits to make and I
have PiPrius #0
in the Back of my Escape.. Right now..
So.. I am rather serious about getting a PiEscape running
in my hands. I've
had it for just over 30 days and I have 2500 miles on it.
She's called Sage. Clearly I didn't name her..... My
Redhead did.
I drove the Kit over to Wenatchee, then made a panic Run
to Portland yesterday for 6 ...year 6 PFC chassis.. I had
$24,000 worth of product in a
$30K Hybrid... So.. I
know how the Rig drives in traffic. Not bad at all.
The only warning is... I have it Gravity installed.. so
no big brakes or smokey burn off!!!
Yes Campers... a Escape Hybrid will smoke the front
tires... at will with
practice. Hint...why do you think I got a 2 wheel drive
version?? It's looking like the Nav/ 6 CD changer and
power flow and gas mileage unit
is a factory installed feature only. And you just can't
get on on a 2 wheel
drive.
Bummer... I might have to actually make a wire harness...
So warning if you want the Escape with the Nav and
Hybrid display...
Force them to order it, or suffer with the added cost of
leather seat$, 4
wheel drive , Moon roof. All th atYuppie Bling, just to
get the display that
should standard on all Hybrid Fords. Hey Bill Ford...
Toyota Does it!!... I
want mine and am willing to pay a grand over it's cost to
have it installed.
No dice...nobody can find one or dare install one.
Great... more work for
Madman.
I have the PDF of the NY State Bid.
I am not interested in handling it solo. I am hoping
somebody else contracts
me to make the Kits, I don't want the politics and
hassle. I won't get it I am too much into REAL
production.. those that get it will
suck enormous funds and deliver.. What...??
We will see what happens.. I want to keep all my options
open
And As far as New York State is concerned.. I don't need
10 Mill...I will
have it designed and operating before they accept the Bid
, With my own funds
and customers.
That 10 Mill is just going to bring out the Shisters and
Goverment fed con
artists.
It's Not for me.
Hey I have been telling folks everywhere, now is not the
time for R&D.. it's
time for production.
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:02 AM
Subject: Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape
wanted for NY state
fleet.
Madman has been notified.
Mike
--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi All,
I though Madman and others may want to get
into this.
New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to
Plug-Ins A new $10 million effort in New York State is
geared toward converting the state's hybrid
fleet-consisting mostly of Toyota Priuses and Ford
Hybrid Escapes-into plug-in hybrids. The New York State
Energy Research and Development Agency (NYSERDA)
released a solicitation on Monday that calls for
multiple awards of up to $100,000 for the development
of plug-in hybrid vehicle prototypes, which will then
be subject to three months of testing. Builders of
successful prototype vehicles may then apply for a
second round of funding to convert the state's fleet of
hybrids into plug-in hybrids. NYSERDA estimates that
the state owns between 500 and 600 hybrid cars and
light trucks, and the winning bidders will need to
present a viable plan to manufacture all-or a
significant portion of-the plug-in conversion systems
in New York State, or otherwise generate significant
economic activity in the state. Proposals are due on
September 18th. See NYSERDA's Program Opportunity
Notice 1088
Jerry Dycus
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ok, since I'm sans EV right now, and I'm going to soon have a nice
new (empty) shop building with nice new tools, I'm seriously thinking
of doing a conversion.
I'm interested in a pickup truck - and it needs to still have a
useful payload capacity after conversion!
I'm wondering if something like a Ford F-250 might work. Payload is
around 3700 lbs, and GVWR is 8800 lbs (that includes payload doesn't it?)
So, say you used a pack of 40 T105's. That's 240V and about 2400
lbs. Hopefully most/all of them would fit under the bed and under the hood.
Use a Z2KHV. Assume the truck still has a 5 or 6 speed manual transmission.
What motor would be appropriate so it's not a complete slug? Is that
even possible?
It would need to be able to cruise and maintain 60mph over rolling hills.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Even if it was plugged into the wall ??
http://tinyurl.com/nqaeq
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
2 - 3 times more stopping power, driven from the pressure of the power
steering unit ( no vacuum ) from summit,
by power brake service company.
any one used these uints?
thanks
jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:03 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> Why do you need this high of voltage?
>
As I understand it, V*A=W, so for a given wattage motor higher V
equals
lower amps.
Lower amps means all the wiring and connectors can be smaller.
Lower amps means less resistance means less losses to waste heat.
smaller *usually* means less expensive when it comes to wires and
connectors.
True?
Sure, but how much total kw to need? You can get 15hp out of a 25lb PM
motor at 48V, which is equal to the performance of a 30hp ICE.
How much total kw needed? Well, I'm not that far along in my design, but I
will say that my planned, or hoped for, doner vehicle is a 1993 Jaguar XJ-S
Type. Google that, and tell me it's not sleek and aerodynamic, and it's
suspension couldn't handle a sh*tload of batteries. ;-)
Metricminds prices for AC Siemens all say "inquire" for the price. They
DO
list MES, and others though. They list a BRUSA for $15K! So are Siemens
prices similar to MES?
Well, if the $3-4K motors are out of your price range, you may be
right. Maybe you should list your budget and performance envelope
before we answer anything else.
You misunderstand me. What I meant was: If a Siemens motor costs similar to
a MES (i.e. $3-4K) then that's do-able, but I don't want a MES, I want a
Siemens. However, if a Siemens motor costs the same as a BRUSA (i.e. $15K)
then fuggedaboudit, I won't take a Siemens!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Do you have a URL?
Jim Lockwood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 2 - 3 times more stopping power, driven
from the pressure of the power steering unit ( no vacuum ) from summit,
by power brake service company.
any one used these uints?
thanks
jim
---------------------------------
Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and 30+
countries) for 2¢/min or less.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks cool, but at $500-$700 bucks, would not a $200 vacuum booster be
cheaper and easier?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jim Lockwood
Sent: August 17, 2006 4:59 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: more stopping power? no vacuum
2 - 3 times more stopping power, driven from the pressure of the power
steering unit ( no vacuum ) from summit, by power brake service company.
any one used these uints?
thanks
jim
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Roland,
Just to clarify -- you are talking about using capacitors alone, without ANY
batteries at all?
I thought batteries were necessary, and capacitors were needed optionally
for acceleration.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Hello Ryan,
The range should be longer if the vehicle is lighter. Just like any EV
battery to weight ratio.
My vehicles weighs 6850 lbs and the battery weight is 2160 lbs which is
31.5% of the weight of the EV.
I had contacted ESMA some time ago, about how many it would take, to give
me at least a 20 mile range. It would take the space of 60 Trojan T-145's
to do that. I do not have the room to put that many in.
They may be ideal for large city street buses that make a 10 mile loop
back to the bus depot, where they can do a fast 300 amp charge.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Roland,
Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle", what
happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> Hello Ryan,
>
> The super capacitors from ESMA can work alone with out batteries, for
> short range from 5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle.
>
> You can stack up these capacitor modules to any voltage you want,
> normally
> higher than the rated motor voltage.
>
> They use a regulated type of controller, something like a Zilla to
> provide
> the corrected voltage to the motor.
>
> You can charge these super capacitors in 5 minutes or less if you have
> the
> 300 to 400 amp charger design for them.
>
> These units are normally design for public or industrial applications
> that
> have the electrical systems to support this type EV's.
>
> It would be interesting to build a lite weight EV using this type of
> power
> source.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
>> Roland,
>>
>> >
>> > A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used to
>> > drive
>> > service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than batteries.
>> > They would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per cell
>> > and
>> > would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000
>> > lbs
>> > each.
>> >
>> > To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about
>> > $15,000.00
>> > for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are
>> > made
>> > by
>> > special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They
>> > are
>> > normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The
>> > Appollo
>> > Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the website tips on caps and batteries.
>> Those ESMA capacitor modules have a max voltage of only 52v for the
>> traction
>> type!
>> What if your pack is *much* higher? like 360V?
>> Must batt pack volts equal cap pack voltage?
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Great site, and yes, I CAN imagine all that stuff. Can't wait to get there!
I bookmarked your site to go back to. I will email Victor. Thanks!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: My ICE Costs
Hi Ryan, I have a Siemens setup (along with numerous other people). I
would
like to point out a few things about Siemens and high voltage systems.
1) since you are using higher voltage you can use smaller and lighter
cabling and connectors (as you point out). I think this is a mute point,
as
you will require more batteries which each require connectors and cases.
So
it probably a 312V (26 batteries) system with thinner cables weighs as
much
as a 120V (10 batteries) system with thick cables.
2) The Siemens system *can* run on lower voltages.
3) you will have a tougher time trying to find inexpensive components
(breakers, relays, fuses) for the higher voltages. You may have to put a
few things in series.
4) the siemens equipment is very deluxe, with many programmable features
and very high quality construction (a 10 year warranty doesn't hurt
either)
5) Victor does not post price lists because the exchange between the euro
and us dollar fluctuates, as well, his supply varies. Give him a call or
an
email note, he will be happy to help, without any sales pressure tactics.
I have a bunch of cost/benefit info on my web site that may be of use to
you. www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Plut
Sent: August 16, 2006 9:09 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
----- Original Message -----
From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:12 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Hi DtAS,
So I noticed. I would like an AC system, but it looks like I'll have to
cobble it together myself piece by piece.
>
Just an off
the cuff estimate, but I guess the voltage I'm shooting for would be
about
360v.
Why do you need this high of voltage?
As I understand it, V*A=W, so for a given wattage motor higher V equals
lower amps.
Lower amps means all the wiring and connectors can be smaller.
Lower amps means less resistance means less losses to waste heat.
smaller *usually* means less expensive when it comes to wires and
connectors.
True?
> Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
> about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
> input to keep the pack alive;
>
Chargers. I had a boat once, a 40 ft trawler. I recall that I bought
a fully
programmable BMS for my deep cycle "house" batteries from a marine
store for
$300. This could handle 70A from my giant alternators and charged
up my 8D
banks beautifully. Could something like this be adapted for EV use?
For 360V? Not unless your boat had some really high voltage, too!
Oh, you're right there. I wasn't thinking!
>
I've been unable to find prices for Siemens AC motors off the web
without
e-mailing somebody and don't want to do that because I'm not
anywhere near
purchase time yet.
You mean except for the price list I posted for metricmind?
Metricminds prices for AC Siemens all say "inquire" for the price. They
DO
list MES, and others though. They list a BRUSA for $15K! So are Siemens
prices similar to MES?
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
G.
Bernard Shaw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Good luck!
One error I made. In point number 3, I said you may have to put a few
things in series to achieve a higher voltage rating, I meant to say in
parallel.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Plut
Sent: August 17, 2006 6:16 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Don,
Great site, and yes, I CAN imagine all that stuff. Can't wait to get there!
I bookmarked your site to go back to. I will email Victor. Thanks!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: My ICE Costs
> Hi Ryan, I have a Siemens setup (along with numerous other people). I
> would
> like to point out a few things about Siemens and high voltage systems.
>
> 1) since you are using higher voltage you can use smaller and lighter
> cabling and connectors (as you point out). I think this is a mute point,
> as
> you will require more batteries which each require connectors and cases.
> So
> it probably a 312V (26 batteries) system with thinner cables weighs as
> much
> as a 120V (10 batteries) system with thick cables.
>
> 2) The Siemens system *can* run on lower voltages.
>
> 3) you will have a tougher time trying to find inexpensive components
> (breakers, relays, fuses) for the higher voltages. You may have to put a
> few things in series.
>
> 4) the siemens equipment is very deluxe, with many programmable features
> and very high quality construction (a 10 year warranty doesn't hurt
> either)
>
> 5) Victor does not post price lists because the exchange between the euro
> and us dollar fluctuates, as well, his supply varies. Give him a call or
> an
> email note, he will be happy to help, without any sales pressure tactics.
>
> I have a bunch of cost/benefit info on my web site that may be of use to
> you. www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Plut
> Sent: August 16, 2006 9:09 PM
> To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
>>> Hi DtAS,
>>> So I noticed. I would like an AC system, but it looks like I'll have to
>>> cobble it together myself piece by piece.
>>> >
>> Just an off
>>> the cuff estimate, but I guess the voltage I'm shooting for would be
>> about
>>> 360v.
>>
>> Why do you need this high of voltage?
>>
>
> As I understand it, V*A=W, so for a given wattage motor higher V equals
> lower amps.
> Lower amps means all the wiring and connectors can be smaller.
> Lower amps means less resistance means less losses to waste heat.
> smaller *usually* means less expensive when it comes to wires and
> connectors.
> True?
>
>>> > Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
>>> > about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
>>> > input to keep the pack alive;
>>> >
>>> Chargers. I had a boat once, a 40 ft trawler. I recall that I bought
>> a fully
>>> programmable BMS for my deep cycle "house" batteries from a marine
>> store for
>>> $300. This could handle 70A from my giant alternators and charged
>> up my 8D
>>> banks beautifully. Could something like this be adapted for EV use?
>>
>> For 360V? Not unless your boat had some really high voltage, too!
>>
> Oh, you're right there. I wasn't thinking!
>
>>> >
>>> I've been unable to find prices for Siemens AC motors off the web
>> without
>>> e-mailing somebody and don't want to do that because I'm not
>> anywhere near
>>> purchase time yet.
>>
>> You mean except for the price list I posted for metricmind?
>>
> Metricminds prices for AC Siemens all say "inquire" for the price. They
> DO
> list MES, and others though. They list a BRUSA for $15K! So are Siemens
> prices similar to MES?
>
> Ryan G. Plut
> "Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
> G.
>
> Bernard Shaw
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Many Diesel vehicles, I know Dodge Trucks for sure use the power steering
fluid through the brake booster to assist the braking. If there's a diesel
version of your vehicle, you're good to go.
Darin Gilbert
BadFishRacing
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Lockwood" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 7:59 PM
Subject: more stopping power? no vacuum
> 2 - 3 times more stopping power, driven from the pressure of the power
steering unit ( no vacuum ) from summit,
> by power brake service company.
> any one used these uints?
>
> thanks
> jim
>
>
>
> --
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.11.1/421 - Release Date: 8/16/2006
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Also, I think you will find the siemens systems much closer to the price of
the MES systems than the Brusa.
My motor and controller package (they must be purchased as a package), cost
about $8k at the time. His prices vary based upon availability of surplus
components and the strength of the euro/us dollar.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Plut
Sent: August 17, 2006 6:00 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Roland,
Just to clarify -- you are talking about using capacitors alone, without ANY
batteries at all?
I thought batteries were necessary, and capacitors were needed optionally
for acceleration.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> Hello Ryan,
>
> The range should be longer if the vehicle is lighter. Just like any EV
> battery to weight ratio.
>
> My vehicles weighs 6850 lbs and the battery weight is 2160 lbs which is
> 31.5% of the weight of the EV.
>
> I had contacted ESMA some time ago, about how many it would take, to give
> me at least a 20 mile range. It would take the space of 60 Trojan T-145's
> to do that. I do not have the room to put that many in.
>
> They may be ideal for large city street buses that make a 10 mile loop
> back to the bus depot, where they can do a fast 300 amp charge.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 PM
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
>> Roland,
>> Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle", what
>> happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
>> I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
>> Ryan G. Plut
>> "Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
>> G.
>> Bernard Shaw
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:53 AM
>> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>>
>>
>> > Hello Ryan,
>> >
>> > The super capacitors from ESMA can work alone with out batteries, for
>> > short range from 5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle.
>> >
>> > You can stack up these capacitor modules to any voltage you want,
>> > normally
>> > higher than the rated motor voltage.
>> >
>> > They use a regulated type of controller, something like a Zilla to
>> > provide
>> > the corrected voltage to the motor.
>> >
>> > You can charge these super capacitors in 5 minutes or less if you have
>> > the
>> > 300 to 400 amp charger design for them.
>> >
>> > These units are normally design for public or industrial applications
>> > that
>> > have the electrical systems to support this type EV's.
>> >
>> > It would be interesting to build a lite weight EV using this type of
>> > power
>> > source.
>> >
>> > Roland
>> >
>> >
>> > ----- Original Message -----
>> > From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>> > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:36 PM
>> > Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>> >
>> >
>> >> Roland,
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used to
>> >> > drive
>> >> > service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than batteries.
>> >> > They would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per cell
>> >> > and
>> >> > would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000
>> >> > lbs
>> >> > each.
>> >> >
>> >> > To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about
>> >> > $15,000.00
>> >> > for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are
>> >> > made
>> >> > by
>> >> > special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They
>> >> > are
>> >> > normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The
>> >> > Appollo
>> >> > Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Thanks for the website tips on caps and batteries.
>> >> Those ESMA capacitor modules have a max voltage of only 52v for the
>> >> traction
>> >> type!
>> >> What if your pack is *much* higher? like 360V?
>> >> Must batt pack volts equal cap pack voltage?
>> >>
>> >> Ryan
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I'm going to have to unsubscribe now. I don't want my inbox filling up to
overflowing. I'm going on vacation for a month. See ya in September!!!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
That's better! $15K for a BRUSA without controller would have broken my
dream.
Bye!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:36 PM
Subject: RE: My ICE Costs
Also, I think you will find the siemens systems much closer to the price
of
the MES systems than the Brusa.
My motor and controller package (they must be purchased as a package),
cost
about $8k at the time. His prices vary based upon availability of surplus
components and the strength of the euro/us dollar.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Plut
Sent: August 17, 2006 6:00 PM
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Roland,
Just to clarify -- you are talking about using capacitors alone, without
ANY
batteries at all?
I thought batteries were necessary, and capacitors were needed optionally
for acceleration.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:08 AM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Hello Ryan,
The range should be longer if the vehicle is lighter. Just like any EV
battery to weight ratio.
My vehicles weighs 6850 lbs and the battery weight is 2160 lbs which is
31.5% of the weight of the EV.
I had contacted ESMA some time ago, about how many it would take, to give
me at least a 20 mile range. It would take the space of 60 Trojan T-145's
to do that. I do not have the room to put that many in.
They may be ideal for large city street buses that make a 10 mile loop
back to the bus depot, where they can do a fast 300 amp charge.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 10:20 PM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Roland,
Interesting. So if it's "5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle", what
happens if the vehicle is only 2 tons? Longer ranges?
I can't afford them anyway; I'm just blue-skying.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got
it" -
G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 5:53 AM
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
> Hello Ryan,
>
> The super capacitors from ESMA can work alone with out batteries, for
> short range from 5 to 10 miles for a 5 to 10 ton vehicle.
>
> You can stack up these capacitor modules to any voltage you want,
> normally
> higher than the rated motor voltage.
>
> They use a regulated type of controller, something like a Zilla to
> provide
> the corrected voltage to the motor.
>
> You can charge these super capacitors in 5 minutes or less if you have
> the
> 300 to 400 amp charger design for them.
>
> These units are normally design for public or industrial applications
> that
> have the electrical systems to support this type EV's.
>
> It would be interesting to build a lite weight EV using this type of
> power
> source.
>
> Roland
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ryan Plut" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 8:36 PM
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
>> Roland,
>>
>> >
>> > A company call ESMA in Russia makes supercapacitors that are used
>> > to
>> > drive
>> > service trucks and buses. They are as big or bigger than
>> > batteries.
>> > They would cost about $40,000.00 for my car. See www.esma-cap.com
>> >
>>
>> >
>> > These Cobalt cells are very heavy. They weigh about 50 lbs per
>> > cell
>> > and
>> > would cost about $6000.00 for 42 cell block which weighs about 2000
>> > lbs
>> > each.
>> >
>> > To drive my car today, this would cost me (factory cost) about
>> > $15,000.00
>> > for a 180 volt pack. They are not on the shelf units. They are
>> > made
>> > by
>> > special order as need to fit new and existing battery cases. They
>> > are
>> > normally a proto type battery as of now. You can get them from The
>> > Appollo
>> > Energy Systems. www.apolloenergysystems.com
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>> Thanks for the website tips on caps and batteries.
>> Those ESMA capacitor modules have a max voltage of only 52v for the
>> traction
>> type!
>> What if your pack is *much* higher? like 360V?
>> Must batt pack volts equal cap pack voltage?
>>
>> Ryan
>>
>>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
An F-250 or similar truck with big payload capacity and capable of
cruising up hills at 60 mpg would be a difficult and expensive
challenge.
F-250s are heavy. The smallest weigh about 6000 lbs empty and with
4WD, crew cab and 8-foot box the weight is about 7000 lbs. If you
are planning to carry 2400 lbs of batteries plan on weighing about
2000 lbs more. Add 3000 lbs of payload and the truck would need
to be a F-350 or F-450 with about 12000 lbs GVWR.
I haven't read about anyone doing what you propose. I suspect that
when people start to realize how much motor and batteries would be
needed they forget about it. Consider what it takes to make a good
compact pickup EV like an S-10 or Ranger and plan on 2 or 3 times
as much motor, batteries and controller.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "EV Discussion List" <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:01 PM
Subject: What does it take to convert a truck?
Ok, since I'm sans EV right now, and I'm going to soon have a nice new
(empty) shop building with nice new tools, I'm seriously thinking of doing
a conversion.
I'm interested in a pickup truck - and it needs to still have a useful
payload capacity after conversion!
I'm wondering if something like a Ford F-250 might work. Payload is
around 3700 lbs, and GVWR is 8800 lbs (that includes payload doesn't it?)
So, say you used a pack of 40 T105's. That's 240V and about 2400 lbs.
Hopefully most/all of them would fit under the bed and under the hood.
Use a Z2KHV. Assume the truck still has a 5 or 6 speed manual
transmission.
What motor would be appropriate so it's not a complete slug? Is that even
possible?
It would need to be able to cruise and maintain 60mph over rolling hills.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just got this in from ECD.....
__________________________________________
DR. IRIS OVSHINSKY, ECD OVONICS CO-FOUNDER, VICE PRESIDENT AND
DIRECTOR, DIES IN BLOOMFIELD HILLS, MICHIGAN
Rochester Hills, Mich., August 17, 2006 ⎯ It is with deep sorrow that
Energy Conversion Devices,
Inc. (ECD Ovonics) (NASDAQ:ENER) announces the death of Dr. Iris M.
Ovshinsky, co-founder,
vice president and a director of the company. Dr. Ovshinsky died August 16,
2006, at her home in
Bloomfield Hills, Michigan, at the age of 79.
Iris Ovshinsky and Stan Ovshinsky, her husband and fellow scientist, founded
ECD Ovonics in 1960
to research and use new science and technology to solve serious societal
problems. Since the
companys founding, Iris was a true pioneer and played a leading role with
Stan in all areas based
on his inventions in amorphous and disordered materials. Under their
leadership, ECD Ovonics has
developed into a multi-disciplinary business, scientific, technical and
manufacturing organization in
the fields of alternative energy generation, energy storage and information
technologies.
We are greatly saddened by Iris death. She was a woman of great vision and
an amazing human
being, said Robert C. Stempel, Chairman and CEO of ECD Ovonics. She built
a corporate culture
which helped us grow as a company. All of us in the ECD Ovonics community
will greatly miss her
and join me in extending our deepest condolences to Stan and her family.
Speaking for the family, Dr. Ovshinskys daughter, Dr. Robin Dibner, said,
Iris fought for peace,
equality and justice with empathy for everyone. She found great happiness in
creating new industries
that resulted in high-value jobs. She was full of life and sparkle, bringing
joy to all who met her.
Iris graduated with a B.A. in Zoology from Swarthmore College, received an
M.S. in Biology from the
University of Michigan, and a Ph.D. in Biochemistry from Boston University.
She is a member of
Sigma Xi, an associate member of Michigan Center for Theoretical Physics of
The University of
Michigan, and a member of the Editorial Board. In 2000, Iris was named Hero
of Chemistry by the
American Chemical society along with Stan as chemical innovators whose
industrial work in
chemistry or chemical engineering has made significant and lasting
contributions to global human
welfare. In 2003, Iris was inducted into the Academy of Distinguished
Alumni of her alma mater,
Boston University. Recently, she and Stan were profiled in the documentary
Who Killed the Electric
Car?
Dr. Ovshinsky is survived by her husband, Stan Ovshinsky; their five
children, Robin and Steven
Dibner, Harvey, Dale and Ben Ovshinsky; and four grandchildren, Natasha and
Noah Ovshinsky,
Sylvie Polsky and Pablo Dibner.
In lieu of flowers, donations may be directed to The American Civil
Liberties Union Michigan
Chapter, the Physicians for a National Health Program (29 E. Madison, Suite
602, Chicago, IL
60602), or The Workmens Circle/Arbeter Ring (26341 Coolidge Hwy., Oak Park,
MI 48237).
Funeral services will be arranged by The Dorman Chapel (248-406-6000)
located at 30440 12 Mile
Road, Farmington Hills, MI 48334 (1-1/2 blocks east of Orchard Lake Road on
the north side of the
street). Visitation for family and friends will be on August 20 from 3:00 pm
to 6:00 pm. Interment will
be private and will take place on Monday, August 21, in Akron, Ohio. A
memorial tribute will be held
at a later date.
###
Contacts:
Ghazaleh Koefod Investor Relations
Dick Thompson Media Relations
Energy Conversion Devices, Inc.
248.293.0440
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 08:15 AM 18/08/06 +1000, Peter Ring wrote:
Has anybody in Australia done a EV conversion on a Holden Combo or
Barina?
If so, I would like to get in contact to get a few pointers if possible
G'day Peter
One of my (work) vehicles is a Combo. There is plenty of space underneath
for batteries - just not the carrying capacity. Payload is only something
like 350kg IIRC, but we worked out that we had been inadvertently
overloading by something like 200kg with no aparent problems. If you can
get the GVWR redefined you'd probably be OK, there are a lot of similar
vans in Europe that are or have been made to be EVs. Handling would
probably improve by dropping the batteries through the floor at the front
of the cargo area.
The newer Combo (non-Barina version) I seem to recall having a larger
carrying capacity, but I am a bit fuzzy on the actual capacities.
Just be aware of the range and operating cycle of your vehicle - a Combo
has a large drag an large frontal area for what it is, if you're dodging
around town it'd probably be a good vehicle, but if you're commuting I
wouldn't pick a Combo. What's your useage?
Hope this helps
Regards
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
250 * 14.4 / 4050^.6 = 24 miles what I used to get
250 * 10 / 4050^.6 = 17 miles what I get now.
24 50ah Excide Orbitals. for eq1 14400/24 = 600 wh/mile *.8 would be assuming
480WH/mile and 80% DOD
24 50ah Excide Orbitals. for eq2 10000/17 = 588 wh/mile *.8 would be assuming
470WH/mile and 80% DODbut this is the same vehicle. So same effiency
assumption, I am just getting less out of the pack(or less into it)
This is dissapointing. I think I, I think we can do better.
--- End Message ---
