EV Digest 5770
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Now how about a buxom babe, with a sexy English accent driving an
electric car?
by "Mike Ellis" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) RE: IGBTs and DC controllers
by Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: article: Tesla Roadster Sells Out First 100 Cars
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: smell a rat ... or at least a PR campaign getting under way?
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
6) Battery Options
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) RE: Battery Options
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Hi-Torque / EV Calendar for 2007
by "ProEV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state fleet.
by "Rich Rudman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by "Tom Shay" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: Lithium Safety
by Andrew Letton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) RE: NEC Tokin Supercaps was Re: EUROPOSITRON or was it ESMA...
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) RE: need parallel circuit to take up 15A on load test
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Range
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Johnson Controls-Saft wins USABC contract for Li-Ion HEV battery
development
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted for NY
state fleet.
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) RE: My ICE Costs
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I thought for sure you were talking about this one.
http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=3/22/2005#
-Mike
On 8/12/06, Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
From:
John Bryan
ra5ca1@ peoplepc.com
How would you like to see a video with a nice buxom babe starring in it?
Sound good? Ok, how about a buxom babe who talks with an English accent?
Doesn't that sound great!! Now how about a buxom babe, with a sexy English
accent driving an electric car? Sound too good to be true? Here it is:
http://tinyurl.com/f5cbo
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
PMSM is Permanent Magnet Synchronous Motor such as UQM makes.
Permanent Magnet Series Motor is a contridiction in terms.
Jeff
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
UQM - Unique Mobility - a company who makes perm mag brushless DC motors.
Do you mind sending your list of acronyms and definitions to the admin of
the EV FAQ? That way we can improve this great information.
thanks
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Eric Poulsen
Sent: August 18, 2006 8:55 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: IGBTs and DC controllers
Ryan Plut wrote:
SOC = State Of Charge
PMSM = ?
IGBT = Insulated Gate Bipolar Transistor DOD = Depth Of Discharge UQM = ?
BLDC = BrushLess DC [Motor]
IIRC = If I Remember Correctly
> OK, everybody:
> I've been to www.evparts.com and seen their FAQ list, but STILL can't
> find this stuff. What do these terms stand for:
> SOC=State of Charge?
> PMSM=Permanent Magnet Series Motor?
> IGBT=
> DOD=
> UQM=
> BLDC=
> IIRC=
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
It's more ok to take them to 0% than lead acid. But with most
chemistry's it's better not to. I've done it for testing so I know
where the floor and ceiling are. Then I drive them in between.
Mike
--- Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mike,
>
> 1) what is your pack voltage
> 2) what is the stated amp hour capacity of your batteries
> 3) what is the rating for the amp-hour capacity
>
> Also, I know for PbA it is bad to bring the pack to 100% DOD, is this
> the
> case for NiMH or is it OK to drain them?
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> On
> Behalf Of Mike Phillips
> Sent: August 18, 2006 7:53 AM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
>
> Well, my Emeter shows 5.07 kwhr's, every time I drive it, just as the
> truck
> stops moving due to a dead nimh pack. I've checked the Emeter against
> my
> Fluke DVM's and both my clamp on amp meters. All matched.
>
> Mike
>
>
> --- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > Man I need help with the math here.
> > >
> > > 3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
> > >
> > > R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
> > >
> > > R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
> > > R = 1250/138.33
> > > R = 9.03 miles of range
> > >
> > > Did I do it right?
> > >
> > > But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
> >
> > 5kWh is wrong, you must have more than that. Rated AH * string
> > voltage, * number of strings.
> >
> >
>
>
> Here's to the crazy ones.
> The misfits.
> The rebels.
> The troublemakers.
> The round pegs in the square holes.
> The ones who see things differently
> The ones that change the world!!
>
> www.RotorDesign.com
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think what the OP meant is "go on" to a higher volume, lower cost
Tesla, though I imagine they'll still sell the high end roadster, even
after they come out with a second model.
cheers,
Andrew
Ryan Plut wrote:
I think this is great. I can hardly wait 'til they deliver them all
and go on to
the next project...
I don't get that sense. I believe Tesla Roadsters is in this for the
long run.
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got
it" - G. Bernard Shaw
(P.S. -- We named our kitten Tesla because she's faster than lightning).
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Two things:
1) the failures in the Dell-Sony batteries are due to wiring problems. A short
occurs inside the battery pack housing. Yes, the batteries burn, but the cause
is faulty wiring.
2) Not all lithium batteries are a fire hazzard when shorted.
http://www.a123systems.com/html/tech/safety.html
I certainly share your frustration! "(why is it
seemingly impossible to find tech writers that understand technology?)"
Ken
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [email protected]
Sent: Fri, 18 Aug 2006 10:26 AM
Subject: smell a rat ... or at least a PR campaign getting under way?
I've been noticing how much play the Dell-Sony battery fiasco is getting in the
press and today's WSJ has finally made me suspicious .There was a third front
page mention, in as many days, about the Dell-Sony lithium battery problems.
Then their was their lead story in the Technology & Health section (why is it
seemingly impossible to find tech writers that understand technology?) is
titled
"Recall Shows Battery Limits" ends with this, "Fuel cells generate electricity
-- instead of storing it -- by combining hydrogen with oxygen from the air and
they don't contain the metals or chemicals that batteries do. Fuel cells still
are a long way from commercial use." Then there's the (also front page) story
about the failing electrical grid, Today, one day after a federal judge says
the
president is breaking the law. OT Politics of the news aside (PLEASE), it just
doesn't seem like a slow news day to me.
All this as EV's are experiencing a Renaissance of sorts thanks to Tesla and
the upcoming review of CARB's ZEV mandate, where they will have to answer for
the death of all of the major automakers EV programs with nothing to show for
it
except a few hundred million dollars wasted on hydrogen fueling stations built
with, let's all count together now, ONE fuel cell vehicle in private hands.
Also, anyone notice how the price of crude is now falling even with Prudhoe
Bay offline? Hmmm ...
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've been looking at NiCads for my jetski project. What NiCad
batteries are available? I've heard of "Flooded Nicads" where would I
find info on them? I'm looking at a Sanyo D-cell 5Ah.
I've been comparing the weight and cost of these D-cells to Optima
Yellow Tops.
The Optima is rated at 55aH, but at 1-hour rate its only 25amps. weight
is 20Kg. cost is $150.
To get the same from the D-cells, you need 5 of them, times 10 for 12v,
so total is 50, weight is 7.5Kg, cost is $250
So as I see it, the cost is roughly twice, but the weight is roughly
half. The NiCad seems like a good tradeoff for a jetski.
But how long will they last? How many cycles can a Yellow Top handle?
I didn't see specs on this for either battery.
It seems I've seen figures of at least 500 cycles?
For a jetski, they can be cycled say 5 times a day, every sat/sun during
4 month summer is 32 days, 160 cycles.
That would yeild 3 years of use with about 500 cycle lifetime.
Appreciate any comments.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
A few things to consider:
- if the battery can handle being in different orientations without spillage
or damage. The jet skis I've ridden are all over the place (upside down
too).
- if the battery and its mounting can handle the shock and vibration that
comes from bouncing off high waves and each other ;-)
I would look to the motocross EVs and see what they are using. They may
have similar kind of issues.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: August 18, 2006 12:33 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Battery Options
I've been looking at NiCads for my jetski project. What NiCad
batteries are available? I've heard of "Flooded Nicads" where would I find
info on them? I'm looking at a Sanyo D-cell 5Ah.
I've been comparing the weight and cost of these D-cells to Optima Yellow
Tops.
The Optima is rated at 55aH, but at 1-hour rate its only 25amps. weight is
20Kg. cost is $150.
To get the same from the D-cells, you need 5 of them, times 10 for 12v, so
total is 50, weight is 7.5Kg, cost is $250 So as I see it, the cost is
roughly twice, but the weight is roughly
half. The NiCad seems like a good tradeoff for a jetski.
But how long will they last? How many cycles can a Yellow Top handle?
I didn't see specs on this for either battery.
It seems I've seen figures of at least 500 cycles?
For a jetski, they can be cycled say 5 times a day, every sat/sun during
4 month summer is 32 days, 160 cycles.
That would yeild 3 years of use with about 500 cycle lifetime.
Appreciate any comments.
Jack
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Jim,
I think a calendar is a great idea. Put me down for one. You are welcome to
use the Electric Imp as one of the cars. We look forward to the day
Hi-Torque starts tricking out AC motors as well!
Cliff
www.ProEV.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, August 14, 2006 12:51 PM
Subject: Hi-Torque / EV Calendar for 2007
Hey all
I've been chewing on an idea here for a couple months about doing a
Hi-Torque Calendar. I have plenty of EV's out there running my motors to
do this but thought a community wide calendar a better choice.
I have a few ideas as to how I'd like to do it, and that means input by
you folks. First, I'd need a list of those willing to be pictured on it.
Second I thought a single type voting from EVerybody would be really fun
with the highest votees getting the honor (not by me but by you) of being
selected.
I thought we could present a different EV group also on EVery month! Yes
AC drive are more than welcome. Although there may be some shameless
Hi-Torque advertising on some of the months, hehe, I'd rather make this
something you all might like to have hanging in you garage 8^ )
My thoughts are that EV groups could get them at cost with featured folks
getting a free one (sorry if you want 5 copies for your momma you'd have
to buy them, hehe). We could list important EV dates, meetings, etc.
Anyway I want to make this happen for 2007 and thought there might be
those who'd like to participate. I'm up for additional ideas and input.
I really don't want this to be an "all racing" deal as I'd like it to
enforce EV's everywhere and that average people can be driving them 8^ )
Is there any interest?? I hope there is, as I'd hate to be full of
myself, LMAO! I'm willing to run the voting through my site, if there is
a need for an un-bias counter I have no problem with that either, hehehe.
What do you all think??
Cya
Jim Husted
Hi-Torque Electric
---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Yea.. all the other PHEV kits want 1800 watt chargers.
I don't.
And that sets me apart. I use the charger as the power processor as well as
the grid charger, So I need the high power for the real work of moving
traction level power. The Big grid numbers just follow as a added bonus.
Getting a pack charged in minimum time is what I am all about here at
Manzanita Micro.
I am betting that, that will always make my gear a better bet.
Lots dissagree.. OK... let them do as they wish...
I bet once the folks that own them, speak out.. the penny pinchers.. will
get burried by the demand for Speed and quick charge. Infact... this allows
you to get Lithium like EV miles per day out of Good old reliable Lead acid.
This is the major cost savings on my kits. In hand, proven chemistry with a
fast charger will beat Lithium in a 4 year argument. You can use up 5 or
more packs before you get to the entry cost of a Lithium, based pack.
Plus we all have that ...DELL laptop NIGHTMARE..to deal with as far as a
Lithium based Plug in pack is concerned...
That little stunt is having it's effect on the general public this very
week. So...
I have folks asking me if I have Dell packs in my Hybrid.. Ummm NO... But I
do have Nickel metal hydride and lead acid...
All along I have had no real interest in small cheap chargers... Like Otmar
has no interest in small cheap controllers...
Same thing.. everybody thinks your can make a small cheap unit made other
There.. and make a mint. Fact is.. you can't...
The cheap stuff.. doesn't last...
I want to put Americans back to work reducing our dependance on oil from
the Sand Box.
Not build some Tin can that barley gets the job done over night.
So... That's where I stand..
I gotta go make it happen...
Rich Rudman
Manzanita Micro
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joel Hacker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 3:38 PM
Subject: Re: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted
for NY state fleet.
> If you search the document, nobody ever mentioned a PFC40.
> I think they meant, since it was an overnight plugin, that
> you might be able to develop a low-power solution that was
> power factor corrected (Like your other chargers) that you
> could mass produce and sell for pennies on the dollar compared
> to some of your higher end chargers...
>
> I.E. mabye a PFC2 or a PFC3 ???
>
> Rich Rudman wrote:
>
> > Cheaper PFC40HM..???
> >
> > I don't think so....
> > The meter and the thermal spreader and the 40 amp breakers and the #6
gage
> > wire from end to end...
> > Doesn't make for cheaper anything.
> > This charger is one serious chunk of gear.. it's the heart of PHEV power
> > processor and the trick high speed grid feed charger.
> >
> > This enables 20 minute recharges... a key feature for REAL world useable
> > EVs.
> >
> > We could use a few 100 unit orders to get the price down... But that's
still
> > in the future.
> >
> > Rich Rudman
> > Manzanita Micro
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <[email protected]>
> > Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 11:55 AM
> > Subject: Grants, Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape wanted
for
> > NY state fleet.
> >
> >
> >
> >> Hi Mike, Madman and All,
> >> When I posted this I was thinking Madman or
> >>others would go for just the $100,000 developement grants,
> >>not nessasarily the final contract. As someone with a plug
> >>in hybrid already built, Madman would likely win a
> >>development grant. Maybe there is a grant writer that would
> >>take him on on the list?
> >> This could be used to make a specialized PFC
> >>charger at a lower cost as it wouldn't have to work over
> >>such a range as his PFC's now do and pay for
> >>reseaching/hacking the hybrids computers, ect.
> >> If nothing else one could end up with a couple
> >>of plug in hybrids and better retro fit kits for sale!!!
> >>Free money is hard to find.
> >> Jerry Dycus
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>----- Original Message Follows -----
> >>From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>To: "Rich Rudman" <[email protected]>
> >>Subject: Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape
> >>wanted for NY state fleet.
> >>Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2006 16:59:17 -0000
> >>
> >>
> >>>What a kickass project that could be for real money too.
> >>>
> >>>With politics pushed aside, do you think you could keep up
> >>>with demand? "We need 8 units for beta, in 3 weeks!" kind
> >>>of stuff.
> >>>
> >>>Man, I'm so looking for a better job than I have now and
> >>>this would be
> >>> it. Dream on...
> >>>
> >>>Mike
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rich Rudman"
> >>>
> >>>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>Yes I would love to have the 10Megga bucks from the
> >>>>Empire State.
> >>>>My guess is the big money guys have already made the
> >>>
> >>>phone calls and locked
> >>>
> >>>>it down..
> >>>>
> >>>>Meanwhile... I have a Bunch of PiPrius kits to make and I
> >>>
> >>>have PiPrius #0
> >>>
> >>>>in the Back of my Escape.. Right now..
> >>>>So.. I am rather serious about getting a PiEscape running
> >>>
> >>>in my hands. I've
> >>>
> >>>>had it for just over 30 days and I have 2500 miles on it.
> >>>>She's called Sage. Clearly I didn't name her..... My
> >>>>Redhead did.
> >>>>I drove the Kit over to Wenatchee, then made a panic Run
> >>>>to Portland yesterday for 6 ...year 6 PFC chassis.. I had
> >>>
> >>>$24,000 worth of product in a
> >>>
> >>>>$30K Hybrid... So.. I
> >>>>know how the Rig drives in traffic. Not bad at all.
> >>>>The only warning is... I have it Gravity installed.. so
> >>>>no big brakes or smokey burn off!!!
> >>>>Yes Campers... a Escape Hybrid will smoke the front
> >>>
> >>>tires... at will with
> >>>
> >>>>practice. Hint...why do you think I got a 2 wheel drive
> >>>>version?? It's looking like the Nav/ 6 CD changer and
> >>>
> >>>power flow and gas mileage unit
> >>>
> >>>>is a factory installed feature only. And you just can't
> >>>
> >>>get on on a 2 wheel
> >>>
> >>>>drive.
> >>>>Bummer... I might have to actually make a wire harness...
> >>>> So warning if you want the Escape with the Nav and
> >>>
> >>>Hybrid display...
> >>>
> >>>>Force them to order it, or suffer with the added cost of
> >>>
> >>>leather seat$, 4
> >>>
> >>>>wheel drive , Moon roof. All th atYuppie Bling, just to
> >>>
> >>>get the display that
> >>>
> >>>>should standard on all Hybrid Fords. Hey Bill Ford...
> >>>
> >>>Toyota Does it!!... I
> >>>
> >>>>want mine and am willing to pay a grand over it's cost to
> >>>
> >>>have it installed.
> >>>
> >>>>No dice...nobody can find one or dare install one.
> >>>
> >>>Great... more work for
> >>>
> >>>>Madman.
> >>>>
> >>>>I have the PDF of the NY State Bid.
> >>>>I am not interested in handling it solo. I am hoping
> >>>
> >>>somebody else contracts
> >>>
> >>>>me to make the Kits, I don't want the politics and
> >>>>hassle. I won't get it I am too much into REAL
> >>>
> >>>production.. those that get it will
> >>>
> >>>>suck enormous funds and deliver.. What...??
> >>>>
> >>>>We will see what happens.. I want to keep all my options
> >>>>open
> >>>>And As far as New York State is concerned.. I don't need
> >>>
> >>>10 Mill...I will
> >>>
> >>>>have it designed and operating before they accept the Bid
> >>>
> >>>, With my own funds
> >>>
> >>>>and customers.
> >>>>That 10 Mill is just going to bring out the Shisters and
> >>>
> >>>Goverment fed con
> >>>
> >>>>artists.
> >>>>It's Not for me.
> >>>>
> >>>>Hey I have been telling folks everywhere, now is not the
> >>>
> >>>time for R&D.. it's
> >>>
> >>>>time for production.
> >>>>
> >>>>Rich Rudman
> >>>>Manzanita Micro
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>----- Original Message -----
> >>>>From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>>>Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2006 11:02 AM
> >>>>Subject: Re: Plug in Hybrid retro fits for Prius, Escape
> >>>
> >>>wanted for NY state
> >>>
> >>>>fleet.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Madman has been notified.
> >>>>
> >>>>Mike
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>--- jerryd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi All,
> >>>>> I though Madman and others may want to get
> >>>>>into this.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>New York State Aims to Convert its Hybrid Fleet to
> >>>>>Plug-Ins A new $10 million effort in New York State is
> >>>>>geared toward converting the state's hybrid
> >>>>>fleet-consisting mostly of Toyota Priuses and Ford
> >>>>>Hybrid Escapes-into plug-in hybrids. The New York State
> >>>>>Energy Research and Development Agency (NYSERDA)
> >>>>>released a solicitation on Monday that calls for
> >>>>>multiple awards of up to $100,000 for the development
> >>>>>of plug-in hybrid vehicle prototypes, which will then
> >>>>>be subject to three months of testing. Builders of
> >>>>>successful prototype vehicles may then apply for a
> >>>
> >>>second round of funding to convert the state's fleet of
> >>>
> >>>>>hybrids into plug-in hybrids. NYSERDA estimates that
> >>>>>the state owns between 500 and 600 hybrid cars and
> >>>>>light trucks, and the winning bidders will need to
> >>>>>present a viable plan to manufacture all-or a
> >>>>>significant portion of-the plug-in conversion systems
> >>>>>in New York State, or otherwise generate significant
> >>>>>economic activity in the state. Proposals are due on
> >>>>>September 18th. See NYSERDA's Program Opportunity
> >>>>>Notice 1088
> >>>>> Jerry Dycus
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>Here's to the crazy ones.
> >>>>The misfits.
> >>>>The rebels.
> >>>>The troublemakers.
> >>>>The round pegs in the square holes.
> >>>>The ones who see things differently
> >>>>The ones that change the world!!
> >>>>
> >>>>www.RotorDesign.com
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I did read your message. We disagree about how much your proposed
truck would weigh. I presume you want to carry 5000 lbs; 3000 lbs
payload plus 2000 for batteries + controller(s) + motor(s) and other
electric components - removed ICE stuff. So you need a truck that can
carry 5000 lbs which I think is probably an F-350 with dual rear wheels.
That's a 7000 lb truck to carry your 5000 lb load.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:48 PM
Subject: Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
At 06:48 PM 8/17/2006, Tom Shay wrote:
An F-250 or similar truck with big payload capacity and capable of
cruising up hills at 60 mpg would be a difficult and expensive
challenge.
F-250s are heavy. The smallest weigh about 6000 lbs empty and with
4WD, crew cab and 8-foot box the weight is about 7000 lbs. If you
As far as I can tell, a regular cab, long bed, F250 is about 5000 lbs
empty.
Remove the big heavy engine and save a few hundred more.
We are definitely NOT talking about a 12,000 lb vehicle!
I haven't read about anyone doing what you propose. I suspect that
when people start to realize how much motor and batteries would be
needed they forget about it. Consider what it takes to make a good
compact pickup EV like an S-10 or Ranger and plan on 2 or 3 times
as much motor, batteries and controller.
Did you even read my message?
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Couldn't be any worse than gasoline, eh?
;-)
Andrew
Edward Ang wrote:
If they are recalling them because they might catch fire, do you
really want them in your car or any device?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jack,
1F can deliver 1Amp for 1 second while dropping 1V.
You can take out 5Amp but then it will drop 5 Volts.
Your math skills are OK: 480W x 3 seconds is about
the power that you can store, but you cannot get it
out. One thing already mentioned is that you cannot
run the caps down to 0V as no 24V motor will run
at 480 Watt constant when supplied with a decreasing
voltage.
The other reason is internal resistance. They have
half an Ohm resistance.
480 Watt at 24V is 20Amp, so the cap will sag 10V.
Why are you looking at these small caps?
Supercaps have been superseded by Ultracaps,
delivering kilo-Farads of capacity per cell.
Maxwell has a module delivering 48V 140F:
http://www.maxwell.com/pdf/uc/datasheets/mc_energy_series_48_1009364_rev2.pd
f
Which is likely built from their MC cells:
http://www.maxwell.com/ultracapacitors/products/MC_power.html
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Jack Murray
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 1:48 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: NEC Tokin Supercaps was Re: EUROPOSITRON or was it ESMA...
If I recall correctly, 1F is 1-amp for 1-second, so a 5F cap isn't much
to get excited about, although 24v is impressive. I have some 50F caps,
but only 2.5v I played with in my RC car.
EPCOS has some 5000F caps at 2.5V,
http://dkc3.digikey.com/PDF/T062/1089.pdf
The datasheets for this cap says 3.5Ah capacity. $300 ea.
You'd need 50 for 120v = $15,000
They have some 200F caps, only $30, * 50 for 120v is only $1500,
which if I'm right above (ee math wiz will correct me), would give you
200amps for 1 second. Might be neat trick for drag racing to dump a
pile of amps to the motor for a second or two.
Jack
Lock Hughes wrote:
> Was just poking around about Europositron and the mention of the Glenn
> Amatucci/Telcordia patent. (Zero hits about aluminum batts on the
> Telcordia site) Found that NEC Tokin has a patent from 2005 that
> references the earlier patent. Don't know if it's about the same batt
> chemistry, but went to the Tokin site anyway.
>
> Tokin makes lots of stuff, including supercaps, turns out. There is a
> pdf catalogue online that lists the caps they have, but that big pdf
> doesn't mention one that they show here:
>
> http://www.nec-tokin.com/english/product/supercapacitor/application02.html
> or tinyurl:
> http://tinyurl.com/kea7g
>
> Specs they show are:
> Max.Rated Voltage (DC) 24V
> Nominal Capacitance 5F
> Max. ESR (at 1kHz) 500mĦ
> Operating Temperature -40�‹C to +85�‹C
> Dimension (mm) 148(W) x 72(D) x 84(H)
>
> The applications they suggest these caps are good for include
> "Automobile Engine Start-up Assist" and regen braking (and "anti-lock
> brake system of freight car"...)
>
> They also list the following features:
>
> 24V type without balance circuit realized
> Rapid charging and discharging
> Unlimited charging-discharging
> Environment-friendly product
> Wide range of the operating temperature
> Long life
> High shock resistance
> High weatherability
>
> No pricing, but on their pdf about RoHS compliance they list this
> particular cap as "[EMAIL PROTECTED]@production".
>
> I think someone commented in the recent ESMA thread about how their
> product might be interesting in a lightweight vehicle?
>
> Anywho, I'm not smart enough to compare the ESMA products w/this NEC
> cap. But I'm thinking that NEC may already be into economies of scale
> with this "little" 24v cap?
>
> Application is a 200lb vehicle (scoot w/rider), where the vehicle is a
> tribrid human/batts/cap(or caps?)... I don't have a problem tapping
> about 24v vehicles (vs 120v and up), `cause `round here this is enough
> volts to pass a Tesla (or WZ) in bumper-to-bumper, which is much of the
> time <grin>
>
> Hoping others here might be interested in these NEC caps (if they
> aren't still outrageous in price), as a system part to ease the strain
> of acceleration off the batts chemistry, and maybe soak up some regen.
> And whether these caps are already showing up in auto wrecking yards
> across NA. But I just don't know what 5 farads "looks like" in
> practical terms (for a scoot - and whether they might be might be found
> within a "scooter budget".)
>
> `Been trying to do the math... or some of it. I *think* these NEC caps
> store 1,440 joules, equal to .4watthour, but if the energy in this cap
> is "blown off" as acceleration over three seconds, that's about 480wh
> of power?
>
> Thanks
>
> Lock
> Toronto
> Human/electric hybrid
>
> __________________________________________________
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
> http://mail.yahoo.com
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
I seem to remember that it was you to warn everyone
to not take a lead pack below 50% SOC.
9 miles sounds like a good approximation of 50% of
the (lead) pack, while you drive your NiMH to 0% SOC
and get 20 miles.
Likely the Peukert effect can more than explain the
difference.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Phillips
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2006 7:53 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Efficency formula (was Re: EV digest 5766)
Well, my Emeter shows 5.07 kwhr's, every time I drive it, just as the
truck stops moving due to a dead nimh pack. I've checked the Emeter
against my Fluke DVM's and both my clamp on amp meters. All matched.
Mike
--- Evan Tuer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 8/18/06, Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Man I need help with the math here.
> >
> > 3700 lbs, 5.0 kwh are my numbers.
> >
> > R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
> >
> > R = 250 *5/(3700^.6)
> > R = 1250/138.33
> > R = 9.03 miles of range
> >
> > Did I do it right?
> >
> > But my truck goes 20 miles. So what's up?
>
> 5kWh is wrong, you must have more than that. Rated AH * string
> voltage, * number of strings.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck,
How accurate and how high-tech do you want this to be?
In theory, it is simply a matter of measuring the
current (the voltage drop across a shunt) and use
this signal to control the amount of resistance of
a load.
Basic schematic to do this is nothing more than a
SERIOUS heatsink with lots of FET power transistors,
an op-amp driving the inputs to all those power
transistors and keeping the voltage across the
shunt at a constant level.
(There are many FETs that can take a high current,
but your voltage of 100V and most transistor's limit
of about 150 to 200W dissipation if cooled at 25 degC
will limit the current per transistor to about 1A,
1.5A max. This means that with between 10 and 20 FETs
you can build such a device and dissipate the 15A
sag that your fixed resistor is giving you, or you
need around 75 FETs to do the whole job, but your
heatsink must dissipate up to 8kW for 2 hours.)
You can still us your loc resistors and bucket of
water to dissipate the majority of the heat, as long
as you stay under 75A at the start of the test, then
all that the power transistors need to do is to
dissipate the difference in current between the
wanted 75 and the amount the loc resistors are taking
due to the sagging voltage.
Make sure that all current runs through the shunt.
I have also tested the crude way with 2 parallel loops
of 100' copper wire strung through my garage.
(Of course, a PFC75 may also work ;-)
BTW, there are 'artificial loads' which are digital
controllable current (and/or voltage) sinks that have
the function that I described above.
Another consideration: if you want to automate this
test, you will need a voltage monitor that opens a
DC relay (or reduces the power transistor current to
zero when you dissipate everything electronically)
when the voltage hits the lower threshold.
If you use a relay and it has a second contact
(even if it's a low-current sensing switch) then you
can hook up an old mechanical alarm-clock, which will
stop running when the relay drops off. That is a cheap
method of telling how long the battery lasted until it
hit the lower threshold.
NOTE that you should measure the lower threshold at
the battery posts, not at the shunt or load, as the error
due to resistance in the cabling may be significant, in
particular when testing single batteries. For a pack this
is less of a concern but still good to verify that the
voltage drop is accounted for in setting the lower point
for stopping the test.
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Chuck Hursch
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 1:27 PM
To: EVDL post
Subject: need parallel circuit to take up 15A on load test
I'm trying to decide how I want to go about taking up the
15-or-so amps of current that a 6V US125 battery sags during a
roughly 75A load test (from beginning to end at 5.25V shutdown).
When I've tested individual 6V batteries in the past on a
locomotive resistor, I've usually set things up so I start at
about 83A and end up at about 67-68A, with much of the test at
about 75A (kind of the center point).
Now I'm working up to doing the whole car pack (96V) at once at a
constant 75A (to compare with the manufacturer's spec of 125
minutes @ 75A), trying to characterize how the batteries are
doing (looking for weak ones) and building a history. I've got
three locomotive resistors hooked in series and dunked in a big
tomato juice (or somesuch) tub full of water (we call this the
"Xmas tree"), and after some modifications and adding a 100A
fuse, I am doing sustained runs sagging through 75A with this
device, pulling about 6-7KW.
I figure that using incandescent light bulbs may be the easiest
way to go to handle the 15A difference. 200W light bulbs seem to
the largest I can find at such places like Safeway and even Home
Depot. About $2-2.50 a bulb. I already have one light table on
hand with six parallel sockets that I've mostly used in the past
to test 12V batteries with 12V light bulbs. Last night on the
variac/rectifier, one 100W light bulb would pull 0.72A at 102VDC,
0.67A at 96VDC, and about 0.64A at 84VDC, which is the 5.25V
point for the 96V pack. Double these amp values for a 200W
light, so 1.2A at 84VDC, and it looks like I will need 12 200W
light bulbs at about $25-30 total, so another 6-bulb light table
with sockets for probably another $25, and once I do all the
crimps and everything, I ought to be about ready to go. Hook the
two light tables in parallel with the resistors and I should be
ready to go.
I have watched people test 12V batteries and maintain constant
100A current by using a chicken finger (it gets hot) and moving a
tap down the resistor. I'd rather screw in light bulbs when
doing a 96V pack. Would there be another way to go?
Thanks in advance,
Chuck
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Barry,
As indicated, this formula is derived from entries in the EV album.
Whatever the author of an EV puts in - real-life range, estimated
range, range to 50%; 80% or 100% DOD, anything that is put in
there is used (on the average) in this formula.
Since most EV album ranges are real-life, I would guess that it
is just slightly over 50% DOD as you would expect for lead-acid.
This is confirmed by the range results for my truck.
With its 4880 lbs and 34kWh pack it calculates to 52 miles range,
while in practice I have taken it to 62.5 miles but that was more than
50% DOD, my estimation was between 65 and 70% DOD based on
the 12.1V resting voltage afterwards (I have AGMs).
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Barry Oppenheim
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 1:15 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Range
Is the formula based on range at 100% DOD, 80% DOD, or 50% DOD?
Barry Oppenheim
-----Original Message-----
What you need for on-the-spot range estimation is the
rutman range formula. In short, the range R (in km)
is given as a function of battery capacity B(of any type, in kWh,
best at the 20C level) and total vehicle weight W (in kg) by:
R = 250 B / (W^0.6)
So for instance for a 1000kg rig you will get 4km for every kWh of stored
battery energy.
For you american types who dont dig the metric system and all its attendant
elegance, there is a lucky cancellation (good thing nobody is using
foot-pounds
or league-bars x ft^2 for stored energy) that makes the formula look exactly
the same in cowboy units:
R[miles] = 250 B [kWh] / (W[lbs]^.6)
so your range in miles for 10kWh of battery in a 2200lb car (thats total
weight,
including the batteries) would be a cool 25 miles or so.
This formula does the right derating of range per stored kWh of battery
energy
due to extra weight, its not a simple R= k B/W relation (as used by
sandorsky
or the massimo rule-of-thumb) but
rather a 0.6 power of weight that comes in. Why ?
I dont know, thats just how it seems to go according to the data from
several hundred vehicles listed at the austinev.org site.
The formula is good for mopeds, bikes, cars trucks etc.
Check out the exciting full-color graphs at the yahoogroups ev
forum pictures or files link.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
link at: http://autoelectronics.com/news/usabc_contract_development/index.html
Johnson Controls-Saft wins USABC contract for Li-Ion HEV battery development
Aug 17, 2006 5:42 PM
The United States Advanced Battery Consortium has awarded a 24-month
lithium-ion battery development contract to the Johnson Controls and Saft
Advanced Power Solutions joint venture. Johnson Controls is also funding work
on the contract.
The USABC, which includes the U.S. Department of Energy, DaimlerChrysler, Ford
and General Motors, awarded Li-ion battery development contracts to Johnson
Controls and Saft in 2004. The two firms formed their joint venture in January,
and the current contract continues the development effort.
Johnson and Saft will focus on Li-ion batteries for hybrid electric vehicles,
hoping to improve battery power in low temperatures, and to reduce battery
system costs.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Fri, Aug 18, 2006 at 01:33:58PM -0700, Rich Rudman wrote:
> Yea.. all the other PHEV kits want 1800 watt chargers.
So your approach seems reasonable as long as you can still charge on 110v.
It probably won't matter if you do that, right?
On the other hand, you might want to have a high speed, low speed switch for
people that choose to run on 220. This is to avoid making a new draw spike
right at the beginning of off peak hours :)
If all the PHEVs charge at 15KW for 20 mins, and you make the power company
spin up a bunch of output, then you draw nothing wasting the rest of the
output of base load plants the rest of the night. This does not make sense.
It seems like level II charging a PHEV that can only do ~45MPH in pure EV mode
does not buy you that much.
A next gen, truly gas optional PHEV would have far more use for level II
charging.
Isn't that true?
> Plus we all have that ...DELL laptop NIGHTMARE..to deal with as far as a
> Lithium based Plug in pack is concerned...
Lithium seems like the clear future for EVs right?
Seems like we should be working to counter these arguments, by switching
to an inherently safe Li chemistry.
Having a pack that you never have to replace is a pretty nice perk.
> All along I have had no real interest in small cheap chargers...
What makes a high power charger expensive?
Is a high quality low power charger just as expensive?
If it is, then I agree with you 100%
> Not build some Tin can that barley gets the job done over night.
It seems like (minus the tin can part) a charger that just gets the job done
overnight is exactly what you want for a PHEV, right?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
No, you were correct first time.
Parallel to get more CURRENT rating,
series to get more voltage rating (if you can
make them switch at the same moment, otherwise
you only have a spectacular fireworks. I think
it was on this list that I saw a sub-station
switch design with two series elements, because
one could not handle the 450kV or so.
Thay were smart enough to test what happens
when one of the two series-switches gets stuck.
The flashover arced and wound itself about
50 feet up in the air until they powered the
substation down with an upstream switch.
Think about battery packs:
- parallel strings to get more current
(each string delivers the total voltage and part
of the current)
- series batteries in a string to increase voltage
and maintain the same current through all batteries.
Regards,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 6:25 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: My ICE Costs
Good luck!
One error I made. In point number 3, I said you may have to put a few
things in series to achieve a higher voltage rating, I meant to say in
parallel.
Don
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ryan Plut
Sent: August 17, 2006 6:16 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
Don,
Great site, and yes, I CAN imagine all that stuff. Can't wait to get there!
I bookmarked your site to go back to. I will email Victor. Thanks!
Ryan G. Plut
"Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" - G.
Bernard Shaw
----- Original Message -----
From: "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2006 9:57 AM
Subject: RE: My ICE Costs
> Hi Ryan, I have a Siemens setup (along with numerous other people). I
> would
> like to point out a few things about Siemens and high voltage systems.
>
> 1) since you are using higher voltage you can use smaller and lighter
> cabling and connectors (as you point out). I think this is a mute point,
> as
> you will require more batteries which each require connectors and cases.
> So
> it probably a 312V (26 batteries) system with thinner cables weighs as
> much
> as a 120V (10 batteries) system with thick cables.
>
> 2) The Siemens system *can* run on lower voltages.
>
> 3) you will have a tougher time trying to find inexpensive components
> (breakers, relays, fuses) for the higher voltages. You may have to put a
> few things in series.
>
> 4) the siemens equipment is very deluxe, with many programmable features
> and very high quality construction (a 10 year warranty doesn't hurt
> either)
>
> 5) Victor does not post price lists because the exchange between the euro
> and us dollar fluctuates, as well, his supply varies. Give him a call or
> an
> email note, he will be happy to help, without any sales pressure tactics.
>
> I have a bunch of cost/benefit info on my web site that may be of use to
> you. www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> Don
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
>
> see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Ryan Plut
> Sent: August 16, 2006 9:09 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Death to All Spammers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2006 9:12 PM
> Subject: Re: My ICE Costs
>
>
>>> Hi DtAS,
>>> So I noticed. I would like an AC system, but it looks like I'll have to
>>> cobble it together myself piece by piece.
>>> >
>> Just an off
>>> the cuff estimate, but I guess the voltage I'm shooting for would be
>> about
>>> 360v.
>>
>> Why do you need this high of voltage?
>>
>
> As I understand it, V*A=W, so for a given wattage motor higher V equals
> lower amps.
> Lower amps means all the wiring and connectors can be smaller.
> Lower amps means less resistance means less losses to waste heat.
> smaller *usually* means less expensive when it comes to wires and
> connectors.
> True?
>
>>> > Chargers are 2-3x that much if you want ones with some smarts, but
>>> > about that much (or even less) if you use something that takes human
>>> > input to keep the pack alive;
>>> >
>>> Chargers. I had a boat once, a 40 ft trawler. I recall that I bought
>> a fully
>>> programmable BMS for my deep cycle "house" batteries from a marine
>> store for
>>> $300. This could handle 70A from my giant alternators and charged
>> up my 8D
>>> banks beautifully. Could something like this be adapted for EV use?
>>
>> For 360V? Not unless your boat had some really high voltage, too!
>>
> Oh, you're right there. I wasn't thinking!
>
>>> >
>>> I've been unable to find prices for Siemens AC motors off the web
>> without
>>> e-mailing somebody and don't want to do that because I'm not
>> anywhere near
>>> purchase time yet.
>>
>> You mean except for the price list I posted for metricmind?
>>
> Metricminds prices for AC Siemens all say "inquire" for the price. They
> DO
> list MES, and others though. They list a BRUSA for $15K! So are Siemens
> prices similar to MES?
>
> Ryan G. Plut
> "Common sense is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it" -
> G.
>
> Bernard Shaw
>
--- End Message ---
