EV Digest 5777
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Ego Scooters. Battery replacement.
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: 72 Volt conversion idea
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Potbox problems
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: Curtis Controller schematics wanted
by Mike Phillips <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Making it more efficient
by "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: DOD v pack life
by James Massey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) connectors for NiMH batteries?
by Jim Coate <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Backyard Blower Builds
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: S10 conversion
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: DOD v pack life
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: need parallel circuit to take up 15A on load test
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: battery trailers
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Controller question
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Low Voltage DC EVs (was: RE: Wilderness Electric Vehicle warning)
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Making it more efficient
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Dendrites was Re: DOD v pack life
by "John Bryan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: What does it take to convert a truck?
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: one bad battery in my pack , an' Stuff.
by "Bob Rice" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: I need a dc-dc converter
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) RE: Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: DOD v pack life
by Jack Murray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: My ICE Costs
by Victor Tikhonov <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
I hope your friend runs on level ground. Adding even one tooth can cause
overheating on hills. I have thought about an Ego but they go too fast on
level ground. They should be registered as a moped. They also don't climb
hills well with heavy riders. I bet if you slowed the top speed down to
20mph(using a bigger rear sprocket) it would be an awsome hill climber.
Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 6:01 AM
Subject: Re: Ego Scooters. Battery replacement.
> ** Reply to message from "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on
Sat,
> 19 Aug 2006 16:46:52 -0700
>
> > Anybody happy with an Ego and
> > their batteries. What works well? Lawrence Rhodes........
>
> One of my neighbors has an Ego. He's had it a couple years. He rides it
as
> his main vehicle.
>
> His batteries are doing fine so far.
>
> One problem has arisen. The sprocket on the motor went south pretty quick
and
> he replaced it with one he could get from a local supply place. It was a
bit
> wider than the original and had one more tooth on it. He also replaced
the new
> belt. Prices were much better than Ego's. It increased his top speed a
little.
>
> Dale Curren
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
If you are talking the L91 yes. I've seen a VW using an 8" ADC and the
Altrax. But how about two A89's or L91's and two 450 Amp controllers. In
a light conversion using a VW pan & a kit car this will work well.
Basically the Zebra sports car. I have noticed using two motors isn't much
of a penalty on battery drain & the performance is better on hills.
Lawrence Rhodes......
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Chancey" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 8:13 AM
Subject: 72 Volt conversion idea
> Hi folks,
>
> This recent discussion of lower voltage EVs got me thinking. I have
> seen a lot of conversions where the approach seemed to be, load it
> will all the batteries it will hold, then add a few more, then put in
> a big enough motor and controller to make it still keep up with
> traffic. The lead sled approach if you will. Having owned a couple
> of Solectria Forces, I really appreciated their overall
> approach. The key to it I feel may not be so much the AC drive
> system, but the light weight and balance of the overall
> conversion. So, what if one made a lower voltage EV in the image of
> a Force, with roughly the same weight in batteries and the same power
> output from the controller. Shouldn't the overall weight and
> performance be similar?
>
> The Force has 13 8G27 gell-cell batteries, 63 pounds each, total 819
> pounds. If we used 12 Trojan T-105 flooded-batteries at 62 pounds
> each the total would be 744 pounds. Close enough for general
> purposes, and an inexpensive decent forgiving battery.
>
> The Force uses an AC drive capable of a max of 250 Amps. In theory
> that is 250 Amps * 156 Volts = 39 KW, though they rate it at only 20KW.
>
> If we used an Alltrax 72 Volt 450 amp controller, then your looking
> at 450 Amps * 72 Volts = 32.4 KW. This probably would be capable of
> more power than the Force system, though you could turn it down if you
wished.
>
> For a drive motor, how about a 6.7" ADV to save some weight and some
> dollars? When you add the flexibility permitted by keeping the donor
> transmission, this should be sufficient
>
> Maybe a Geo donor to really match up with the Force, or something
> similar and I would suspect you should end up with an EV capable of
> covering most folks commuting needs without spending a lot of money
> and still get good serviceability.
>
> Not a pavement shredding monster by any means, just a decent simple
> beginner EV. So, what do you think?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Mike Chancey,
> '88 Civic EV
> Kansas City, Missouri
> EV Photo Album at: http://evalbum.com
> My Electric Car at: http://www.geocities.com/electric_honda
> Mid-America EAA chapter at: http://maeaa.org
> Join the EV List at: http://www.madkatz.com/ev/evlist.html
>
> In medio stat virtus - Virtue is in the moderate, not the extreme
> position. (Horace)
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Ken, I owned a Mike Brown VoltsRabbit for 4 years, and
never had an issue with an intermittent potbox. I
have read of many listers having them, but none every
two weeks!
Pardon me for asking, (as you have taken resistance
readings), but are you using this with a Curtis 1221B
and 9" motor? They are a combination that will show
acceleration issues from a dead stop. (I solved it by
going to a 1231-8601).
Otherwise, I'd start as you are, and suspecting
some mounting/side-torquing issues.
peace,
--- Ken Albright <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have had problems with two potboxes and wonder if
> this is common or if there is something I could be
> doing to cause it.
>
> The failure mode has been the same. Over the
> period of about a week and about 200 miles of
> travel, they have developed a dead spot in the 300
> ohm vicinity. Below and above they work fine, but
> trying to take off smoothly is not possible. The
> pot hits that area and goes to infinite resistance
> momentarily, then quickly moves past. This makes for
> a herky-jerky ride and backing smoothly is almost
> impossible.
>
> When the first one did this, I replaced the guts
> and everything was fine for a while. It was like
> driving a different car. Now the problem is
> returning and my ohm meter shows the same problem.
>
> It is a Curtis PB6. Is there a history of this
> type of failure? Is there anything that might cause
> it. I have the cable lined up for a straight pull
> on the PB arm so there is no side pressure.
>
> I can get another replacement but I don't want to
> have to do this every couple of weeks.
>
> Thanks
>
> Ken
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls
> to the US (and 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I've not seen one for that particualr model. But there is a schematic
on Otmar's site that was nearly complete of a slightly differnet model.
They don't differ that much. The basic layout and debug of each model
is the same.
Mike
--- nikki <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> A friend in Bristol is looking for schematics/circuit diagrams for
> his Curtis 1274 controller. It's a bit pooched after (I believe) the
>
> charger blew. He wants to know if it's completely broken or not.
>
> I can pass them onto him if anyone has copies they can email to me!
>
> Regards
>
> Nikki.
>
>
Here's to the crazy ones.
The misfits.
The rebels.
The troublemakers.
The round pegs in the square holes.
The ones who see things differently
The ones that change the world!!
www.RotorDesign.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Awesome story!
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Some observations on picking up efficiency with my Saturn SC conversion.
>
> It's a 144 volt pack of Trojan 30XHS batteries, not that much
energy on board
> Zilla 1K controller (limited to 500 pack murdering battery amps)
> 9" ADC motor
> Stock "performance" manual transmission... performance version has
higher gear ratios which is more ideal for electric motors
>
> When I first got the car converted it has some no name tires on
it. I don't do a whole lot of highway cruising with it so my baseline
is amps at 40mph steady on flat ground int he city. It took about 70
amps to hold 40mph initially.
>
> First modification was to get the old horrible rubber off of it
and put some decent tires with lower rolling resistance
characteristics on it, and the old tires were in bad shape too. Going
to Goodyear Integrity tires in 185/60R15's dropped 10 amps now
requiring 60 amps to hold 40mph.
>
> Second and third mod's happened at about the same time, I had it
alligned for 0 toe in and removed the stock wing from the car. I
noticed a little more from the wing being gone on the highway, but
overall these dropped the car down to 50 amps.
>
> Fourth and fifth mod occured both pretty recently, but close
enough together to notice a difference with each. Fourth was playing
with the brakes. The flexible brake lines looked to be original. These
rubber hoses will tend to expand with age and not let all the brake
fluid go back in to the resivor, I replaced all of them and at the
same time got the caliper rebuild kits for the front disk brakes. This
consisted basically of new rubber O-rings which help retract the
piston from the pads. I only drove it some before making modification
number 5, but this in itself made another good 5 amp difference.
>
> Modification number five happened today, which was installing
light weight wheels. I found some 15X7" wheels weighing in at only
12.6 lbs! And even better they didn't totally break the bank. They are
Kosei K1's, tire rack sells them and they are about $150 a piece,
which included all necessary hardware, and they look really good to
boot. While at discount tire getting them installed I observed three
people crouched around the box the wheels came in writing the
information down. I chatted with one of the guys and they said the
shop manager had never felt a wheel so light weight and wanted to know
what they were and where I got them because he wanted a set. I should
also mention that the 14" version of these wheels weights in at 9.5
lbs for those of you with smaller wheels and tires. I requested 40psi,
which didn't happen. As I drove home the amps had actually increased a
tad, but upon checking the tire pressure it was less than 30lbs so I
pumped them back up and about an
> hour later left for work. I'm now down to about 40 amps to hold
40mph. Acceleration uses way less power. 150 amps accelerates quicker
than 200 amps used to! And the car already had alloy wheels, which
upon lifting them by theirselves it was apparent I had saved a lot of
rotational mass (I need to weigh the old wheels to see just how big of
a difference I made, but it feels like about half!).
>
> So in short over the last year I've taken the car from 70 amps to
hold 40mph down to 40 amps to hold the same speed. This is a HUGE
improvement! At this point my pack is already on it's way out, however
the range when I get a new pack (probably in another year) will be far
greater than what it was before. This is nearing almost a 50%
improvement over how it was when the car first moved under it's own
power as an electric conversion! Ok so granted that 3/8" overall toe
out wasn't helping any, but there are things you can to to gain
efficiency and therefore range.
>
> I'm not 100% sure where I can go from here now. I'm thinking other
aerodynamic modificaitons are about all I can do. I suppose making a
belly pan is about all there if left. Anyone else have any other ideas?
>
> Here are the wheels:
>
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/DisplayWheel.jsp?wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
>
> Here's the manufacturers page for the wheels:
> http://www.koseijp.co.jp/engfl/n_p5_k1.htm
> Weight performance
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The only wheels ligher I've ever found are Volk TE37's at abotu
$300-$400 a piece! And they aren't $300 a piece lighter either.
>
> It's a totally different car with those wheels, highly recommended.
>
>
> Later,
> Ricky
> 02 Insight
> 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> Glendale, AZ USA
>
> ---------------------------------
> Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
At 12:25 PM 20/08/06 -0600, you wrote:
From: "David Roden"
Getting the most cycles is a balancing act between avoiding sulfation
from undercharging and and avoiding grid corrosion from overcharging.
Which of these conditions, or what others cause cell-shorting
dendrites to grow?
Thanks,
JB
G'day JB, and All
Dendrite growth is a NiCd problem, where each time they are charged, they
try to grow dendrites, dumb overcharge NiCd chargers give them lots of time
to grow them.
Sulphation and grid corrosion are PbA problems, Sulphation by doing an
incomplete return reaction to lead and acid, grid corrosion by putting
current through grids (plates) that have already completed the reaction.
Cell shorting in PbA is either the cell seperators failing or "mud" (failed
active material) building up in the bottom of a cell until it shorts it out.
Hope this helps
[Technik] James
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I recall discussion that using copper lugs to connect to NiMH (or other
Nickel- based) batteries would be a bad thing as the copper would soon
corrode.
Would the typical MagnaLugs(tm) lugs which are tin plated copper hold
up? Or will the tin react too? If so, what other choices are there?
--
Jim Coate
1970's Elec-Trak's
1997 Solectria Force
1998 Chevy S-10 NiMH BEV
1997 Chevy S-10 NGV Bi-Fuel
http://www.eeevee.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> since most of us don't go past 170 motor V, a 110V universal motor
> could be put in line after the controller
Do you mean in parallel with the traction motor, so it sees the same
voltage? I.e. between controller M+ and M-?
If so, then the blower's speed will be proportional to potbox position;
slow when you barely press it, and fast when nearly floored. This is the
same as the internal fan inside the traction motor.
But as Rod said, this is the opposite of what you really want. The motor
draws the most current at low speeds, and so needs the *most* cooling.
At high speeds, a series motor draws low current, and so needs much less
cooling. The internal fan is easy, but does it backwards -- low cooling
at low speeds, and too much cooling at high speed.
An alternative is to connect your blower motor across the field. The
field acts as a current-sensing resistor; the voltage across it it
proportional to current, which is in turn proportional to how much
cooling you need.
The drawback is that the field resistance is *very* low. Even at 100's
of amps, there's less than 1 volt across it. But, there's a trick. With
a PWM controller (Curtis, Zilla, etc.) the voltage across the field is a
large AC PWM signal whose *average* DC value is less than a volt. You
can rectify the PWM voltage to run the blower motor, like this (view
with a fixed width font):
+ from controller
|
|_____|\|_______________
_| |/| D1 | |
|_ _|_ _|_
|_ motor field /_\ D2 / \ universal
|_ | \___/ blower motor
|______________|________|
_|_
/ \
\___/ motor armature
|
|
- from controller
D1 rectifies the high peak voltage from the PWM controller. D2 is the
freewheel diode so the universal motor keeps running between PWM pulses.
Thus, the universal motor is speed controlled by the PWM signal, exactly
like the series traction motor. However, the faster the traction motor
runs, the higher its armature voltage, and the less voltage the blower
sees. The blower runs fastest at low traction motor speeds, and slower
as the traction motor speeds up. When the PWM controller is fully on,
the blower motor stops, and all cooling comes from the traction motor's
internal fan.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
David A. Serafini wrote:
> I am planning to convert a Chevy S10 for daily commuter use...
> able to do 70-75 mph on the local freeways is a must...
> A bit of acceleration on the ramps is necessary too. I am
> considering using the Solectra AC direct drive system with the
> reversed rear axle... Will this give adequate performance to be
> "Safe in Chicago" or should I use a system that retains the
> original transmission?
75 mph and fast accelleration in a heavy, non-aerodynamic pickup truck
takes a *lot* of power. This requires a big motor and controller. Trying
to do it without a transmission requires an even bigger motor and
controller.
With a transmission, I'd say a DC system would need at least a 144vdc
pack, Advanced DC 9" motor, and Zilla 1k controller. An AC system would
need to be 50kw or higher, with a 288vdc pack.
Without a transmission, you'd have to double the power for reasonable
accelleration since you're effectively aways driving in 3rd gear. For
DC, a Zilla 2k controller and larger or twin motors. For AC, a 100kw AC
drive. And for both, even higher pack voltages.
What is your range expectation? A power-hungry vehicle will either
require a big heavy pack, or have very short range. A 1000 lbs pack
would get you 20-30 miles; a 2000 lbs pack gets you 40-50 miles, but
requires upping the load-carrying capacity of the truck and can create a
"lead sled".
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
jmygann wrote:
> And how is that measured? Voltage? I have a 48 volt, 220 ahr pack...
Think of it as the total miles you can drive over the life of the pack.
The life of a 6v 220ah lead-acid golf cart battery is about:
2000 cycles at 20% DOD
1200 cycles at 50% DOD
600 cycles at 80% DOD
200 cycles at 100% DOD
The shallower the discharge, the more charge/discharge cycles you get;
but the fewer miles you can drive per charge. The optimum point (most
total miles on the pack) occurs where the #cycles x %DOD is the largest.
Let's say each 10% DOD takes your EV 3 miles (i.e. your range is 30
miles to 100% DOD). A 6v 220ah golf cart battery actually delivers 75a
for 105 minutes = 131ah. For a 48v 131ah pack, that's 48v x 131ah / 30
miles = 209 watthours/mile; about right for a small light EV. Then the
distance you can drive for each of the above depths of discharge is:
20% DOD = 6 miles
50% DOD = 15 miles
80% DOD = 24 miles
100% DOD = 30 miles
So, your total mileage for the pack is
2000 cycles x 6 miles/cycle = 12,000 miles at 20% DOD
1200 cycles x 15 miles/cycle = 18,000 miles at 50% DOD
600 cycles x 24 miles/cycle = 14,400 miles at 80% DOD
200 cycles x 50 miles/cycle = 10,000 miles at 100% DOD
Your lowest battery cost per mile is thus to discharge them to about 50%
DOD before recharging.
Sorry for all the numbers. Hope no one's eyes glazed over!
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Chuck Hursch wrote:
> I'm going to go lo-tech, probably with the light bulbs...
> I think screwing in light bulbs can keep me within an amp or
> two of the desired 75A.
Lamps work fairly well as constant current loads. I find that 602 and
100w lamps are often the cheapest; $0.25 each on sale!
Ceramic heaters are another reasonably good constant current load. The
actual load current is strongly temperature dependent, and can be varied
by controlling fan speed. A 1200w heater costs around $25. Rewire it to
run the AC fan motor on AC, and the heating elements on DC.
Beware that DC circuits arc pretty bad! Don't expect AC-only rated
switches to last very long on high voltage DC. Same for your lamp
sockets -- they will quickly be destroyed from arcing if you screw bulbs
in/out at high DC voltages.
Use contactors, or snap-acting switches. If the device is AC-rated,
derate it about 4:1 for DC (a 120vac switch is only good for about 30
volts DC). Or, use ancient home switches or lamp sockets, which were AC
and DC rated until the 1950s.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Edward Ang wrote:
> I would think that if the ground is not level, you are running the
> risk of one wheel supporting the entire trailer on one side and the
> other wheel in the air causing the trailer to bend and damage itself.
That would be true if the trailer had no suspension. But all the
trailers I've seen (including the one-wheel ones) had suspension systems
to allow for this.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Fred Hartsell wrote:
> Curtis controller... the manual states be sure to use an appropriate
> heat sink and to be sure to mount the controller in an area that
> will be dry but will still be able to get cooling air.
Right. It needs a lot of cooling, and despite appearances, it is not
waterproof.
> I am going to put the breaker, relays and fuses in a fiberglass box
> but I am not sure where I need to mount the controller.
A good plan is to get a big heatsink, and mount it to the outside of
your fiberglass box. Cut a hole in the box big enough for the
controller, and mount it to the heatsink but inside the box. This keeps
water out, and dissipates the controller heat outside the box.
--
"Never doubt that the work of a small group of thoughtful, committed
citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever
has!" -- Margaret Mead
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am forced to disagree with that claim, ie I think a minimum
acceleration is necessary to smoothly participate in traffic. I haven't
owned a V8 in years, My 200hp V6 is more than adequate on the grand am
AND the 2.4 liter is more than adequate on the Mitsubishi PU, But they
weight a LOT less than my EV. The torque output of the 2Liter would NOT
be sufficient to propel the truck if it weighted as much as my
conversion. remember that 1000lbs of lead has the energy equivalent of
about 3/4 a gallon of gas.
While I agree a lot of it is cultural, educating everyone to my right to
my slower viewpoint every time I pull away from a stoplight is hazardous
in Fresno.
PS the Fresno joke is red means "stop", green means "go" and yellow
means "go real fast"
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Phillips" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Ricky Suiter" <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 5:44 PM
Subject: Re: Making it more efficient
> Awesome story!
>
> Mike
>
> Hi Mike an' All;
Here we have the List at it's Finist!A real "It works for me"and how to
do it . Shared with anybody that wants. Thanks Ricky, to ,for the cool
links! In EV's it is ofter the relentless persuit of perfection, that makes
a converson a winner.
Seeya
Bob
>
> --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ricky Suiter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Some observations on picking up efficiency with my Saturn SC conversion.
> >
> > It's a 144 volt pack of Trojan 30XHS batteries, not that much
> energy on board
> > Zilla 1K controller (limited to 500 pack murdering battery amps)
> > 9" ADC motor
> > Stock "performance" manual transmission... performance version has
> higher gear ratios which is more ideal for electric motors
> >
> > When I first got the car converted it has some no name tires on
> it. I don't do a whole lot of highway cruising with it so my baseline
> is amps at 40mph steady on flat ground int he city. It took about 70
> amps to hold 40mph initially.
> >
> > First modification was to get the old horrible rubber off of it
> and put some decent tires with lower rolling resistance
> characteristics on it, and the old tires were in bad shape too. Going
> to Goodyear Integrity tires in 185/60R15's dropped 10 amps now
> requiring 60 amps to hold 40mph.
> >
> > Second and third mod's happened at about the same time, I had it
> alligned for 0 toe in and removed the stock wing from the car. I
> noticed a little more from the wing being gone on the highway, but
> overall these dropped the car down to 50 amps.
> >
> > Fourth and fifth mod occured both pretty recently, but close
> enough together to notice a difference with each. Fourth was playing
> with the brakes. The flexible brake lines looked to be original. These
> rubber hoses will tend to expand with age and not let all the brake
> fluid go back in to the resivor, I replaced all of them and at the
> same time got the caliper rebuild kits for the front disk brakes. This
> consisted basically of new rubber O-rings which help retract the
> piston from the pads. I only drove it some before making modification
> number 5, but this in itself made another good 5 amp difference.
> >
> > Modification number five happened today, which was installing
> light weight wheels. I found some 15X7" wheels weighing in at only
> 12.6 lbs! And even better they didn't totally break the bank. They are
> Kosei K1's, tire rack sells them and they are about $150 a piece,
> which included all necessary hardware, and they look really good to
> boot. While at discount tire getting them installed I observed three
> people crouched around the box the wheels came in writing the
> information down. I chatted with one of the guys and they said the
> shop manager had never felt a wheel so light weight and wanted to know
> what they were and where I got them because he wanted a set. I should
> also mention that the 14" version of these wheels weights in at 9.5
> lbs for those of you with smaller wheels and tires. I requested 40psi,
> which didn't happen. As I drove home the amps had actually increased a
> tad, but upon checking the tire pressure it was less than 30lbs so I
> pumped them back up and about an
> > hour later left for work. I'm now down to about 40 amps to hold
> 40mph. Acceleration uses way less power. 150 amps accelerates quicker
> than 200 amps used to! And the car already had alloy wheels, which
> upon lifting them by theirselves it was apparent I had saved a lot of
> rotational mass (I need to weigh the old wheels to see just how big of
> a difference I made, but it feels like about half!).
> >
> > So in short over the last year I've taken the car from 70 amps to
> hold 40mph down to 40 amps to hold the same speed. This is a HUGE
> improvement! At this point my pack is already on it's way out, however
> the range when I get a new pack (probably in another year) will be far
> greater than what it was before. This is nearing almost a 50%
> improvement over how it was when the car first moved under it's own
> power as an electric conversion! Ok so granted that 3/8" overall toe
> out wasn't helping any, but there are things you can to to gain
> efficiency and therefore range.
> >
> > I'm not 100% sure where I can go from here now. I'm thinking other
> aerodynamic modificaitons are about all I can do. I suppose making a
> belly pan is about all there if left. Anyone else have any other ideas?
> >
> > Here are the wheels:
> >
>
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/DisplayWheel.jsp?wheelMake=Kosei&wheelModel=K1+TS&wheelFinish=Silver+Painted
> >
> > Here's the manufacturers page for the wheels:
> > http://www.koseijp.co.jp/engfl/n_p5_k1.htm
> > Weight performance
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > The only wheels ligher I've ever found are Volk TE37's at abotu
> $300-$400 a piece! And they aren't $300 a piece lighter either.
> >
> > It's a totally different car with those wheels, highly recommended.
> >
> >
> > Later,
> > Ricky
> > 02 Insight
> > 92 Saturn SC2 EV 144 Volt
> > Glendale, AZ USA
> >
> > ---------------------------------
> > Yahoo! Messenger with Voice. Make PC-to-Phone Calls to the US (and
> 30+ countries) for 2¢/min or less.
> >
>
>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
From: "James Massey"
Dendrite growth is a NiCd problem, where each time they are charged, they
try to grow dendrites, dumb overcharge NiCd chargers give them lots of time
to grow them.
I've done that and learned my lesson, luckily on a small scale.
Cell shorting in PbA is either the cell seperators failing or "mud" (failed
active material) building up in the bottom of a cell until it shorts it out.
I'm talking AGMs, so no buildup in the bottom. I had never heard of
dendrites in respect to PbA, until I spoke with the former head electro-
chemist of Optima batteries. He was telling me about how using a finer
seperator (smaller glass fiber diameter) in the Optimas would cause
increased dendrite turbidity and help to prevent dendritic shorts. The reason
I ask is that I just recently lost my first battery to this in my 10 year old pack
of YTs. A cell just suddenly shorted out fairly badly. Luckily I had one spare
of the same vintage in my rarely driven gasser (currently sitting with a fallen
tree right on top of it). I tried to clear that short but could not.
If this is the failure mechanism that I'll be looking at here, I want to
do whatever I can to prevent it. Also, if it's not dendrites, what else could
possibly cause a shorted cell to develop in an AGM?
Thanks very much,
John
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I didn't convert the truck because I still needed it to get parts and
such. I figured a 300z for $300 with the engine already pulled was too
good to pass up. It is quick enough to have gotten a " man you drive
fast, I have seen you zipping out of here" statement in the department
meeting this week. (in front of 100 people) And the person making that
statement didn't know it was an EV. The response from a converted 300zx
is great. I think the truck would have been ho-hum.
Another plus was, I always wanted a z car and can't afford to own and
maintain an ICE version of one. Besides, someone said convert a car you
like! Man does it have great seats, and a T-Top!
I am curious why you said it is one of the worst to convert. There are
few rear wheel drive sporty cars left.
I will admit that before I blew the motor, it accelerated better, I have
not gotten all the bugs worked out. The first week, where I only had the
13 batteries in back, it was really a hot car. So I have a feel for what
500 lbs less weight could do.(But I didn't want to be a hypocrite
either, worrying about 100 or 200 lbs when the driver could stand to
loose 100+.
one more:
You know you are an EV list member when loosing weight is seen as a way
to get more batteries on board.
Range is the issue for me. I need more range about 2 days a week. I
really think my efficiency issues are just at the beginning. The
effiency was better before ~320wh/mile(with 17 batteries) and now it
is like 450wh/mile with 24 batteries. I think, and you can feel this in
the pedal, the timing is to far advanced. Here is why I say that but I
need someone who has driven a car at multiple timings too chime in. I
think the timing is too far advanced for this mass of vehicle. It almost
bogs off the line pulling lots of amps. Once it is spinning at around
2500RPM it seems to come into it's sweet spot and it pulls good, but
then I have to shift because the rpm's climb. Unfortunately, the only
instrumentation I have is the emeter and it is useless as an ammeter
because of the lag.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The 11 has 2 times the torque as the 9 when given the same volts and
amps , ( half the rpm , of course, no over unity ) so it's much like 2
9's in series . I'd say you'd still need a 2k controller or a tranny .
I think there is a subtle point here that shouldn't be missed. If you
have a high voltage pack,
2 - 9" and a series parallel shift off of a zilla 1K, Couldn't you
have similar acceleration as the 11 with a Zilla 2k off the line. Lets
face it, you can't push too many amps or over 170Volts per commutator.
Then the zilla 1K shifts electronically and the 2 9's give twice the
cruising torque per amp as 1 9" or similar to the 11. (actually, if you
pushed the mitsubuisi tranny to what 2 9's or an 11 can put out, it will
explode!).
With a single 11 you have to have the zilla 2k to get enough amps off
the line for direct drive.
Obviously sustained high power and drag slick stickyness and the zilla
2k is gonna win, but for day to day use, the dual 9 with no tranny
sounds pretty good.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, August 20, 2006 1:16 PM
Subject: Re: one bad battery in my pack
> Steve,
>
> Sounds like a great reason for everybody to get some battery regulators,
or even Lee's Battery Balancer!!!
> Hi EVerybody;
Gees! Steve is SO nice to his no 4! I would be driving EVery day and
notice a sutile drop in voltage, increasing in day to day travel. When you
have a GOOD quality volt meter, like a Simpson,you can SEE the few volts
drop under load. Then my Touch test. Feel ALL the batteries after a hard 200
amp run to work. If iI have a hot cell, and I would, at that point or
yes(Gasp!) A Trojan Teakettle! Smokin' boiling cell. A quick battery change,
and wondering how long before the next time? A TT takes awile, although they
can happen overnight, and have. Voltage good then, suddonly it's like the TV
ad with the car dragging the Mayflower's anchor, the snickering cops" Ha Ha
16mph" I'm SURE ya have seen that one? The car towing the piano, good stuff
although it is for an Oil Co I think? So my take is that it isn't gunna get
" Well" again. Beat the shit out of it, it fails, replace and go on your way
EV Grin intact.A sorta Deep Pockets approach, but as long as we use the damn
lead Acids, were stuck with it. Maybe the regulaters can perlong the agony,
or maybe prevent it in the first place. I tend to think you will go further
on a set of cells if sone can be babied ,if needed.
Funny, when you JUNK a battery you only geta few bux for it, but you go
out and BUY one you are paying some outragious price with the excuse " The
Lead is SO high, nowadaze"! It's like the Oil Co's again? BTW IF you go to
Blows or Home Despot get ready for sticker shock at the electrical Dept!
That nice roll of wire ya paid 15 bux for last year is 45 or so. Like for
3/10 BX stuff., for wiring up an outlet for charging, so you aren't
contributing to Global Warming! And you thought only gold appreciated like
mad. Your rolls of 2 ought power cables has doubled in value as I write
this<g>! Well, I only type with two fingers, anyhow<g>!
Will it come to an EV coalition. Hmmmmm...... Electric Auto Assoc. for
instance, OWNING a battery plant, so we can buy reasonably priced Lead
Acids, as if this EV thing really catches on, battery prices may go through
the roof, I mean ,MORE than now? Hey ,we are hooked on just a few BIG Asse
Co's for our batteries. Oil Co's buy up, US Battery, Trojan, Exide ,Dyno,
Surrette Add your favorite cell sorce ,Hell , pocket change for them, then
where will we be?Most of us aren't ready to step up to Valances, just yet.Or
if we were to LEASE our packs, then they stay in the loop, sorta speak, are
lovingly recycled for the next EVer?
OK just some random thoughts. Take it at what it cost ya?<g>! Down to
the wire, now. My grandkid showing up before Woodburn?Can still see him and
FLY out to PIR, was due last Fri. Or I would be in Chicago about now? Like
EVery other year. A once in a lifetime EVent , though. I have wheels ,
motors set aside for my new EVer, already.EV Grins can start early on if '
Gramps builds him one!Hell! We couldn't predict when the trains will arrive.
Second guessing Ma Nature isn't that easy, although they can , ultrasound,
TELL you if it's a boy or girl. Sorta takes the sport out of it, like using
turn signals!
Hope to SEEYA at PIR
Bob
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Sorry, I was out of state and replying with delay.
Jeff Shanab wrote:
If I keep the 12V aux battery, I can get by with 50 amps or less
What are my options?
Brusa has one but the prices are ridiculus (sorry Victor, but I
don't need 1200W)
If you don't need 1200W, don't buy it. What is the problem?
1200W is [EMAIL PROTECTED] I suppose if you can get by with half of that,
you can get 600W converter I also list, I hope you didn't
overlook it. Yes, BRUSA prices are traditionally high, but
at least it is *available* if you want it or stuck without
ANY dc-dc. The cost of 1200W dc-dc is ridiculous because it
has ridiculously high power for your needs (besides
the premium for Swiss-made thing). Just pick the right stuff
for the application.
Victor
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I think Randy at canev.com converted an echo.
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Dmitri Hurik
Sent: August 19, 2006 6:00 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Opinions on Toyota Echo for conversion?
Your opinion: is the Toyota Echo a good candidate for conversion?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
for a optima yellow top at 20-hour 55ah, it has a 1-hour rate of 25ah,
so would a DOD of 50% actually mean only draw 12.5 amps over an hour?
Jack
Lee Hart wrote:
jmygann wrote:
And how is that measured? Voltage? I have a 48 volt, 220 ahr pack...
Think of it as the total miles you can drive over the life of the pack.
The life of a 6v 220ah lead-acid golf cart battery is about:
2000 cycles at 20% DOD
1200 cycles at 50% DOD
600 cycles at 80% DOD
200 cycles at 100% DOD
The shallower the discharge, the more charge/discharge cycles you get;
but the fewer miles you can drive per charge. The optimum point (most
total miles on the pack) occurs where the #cycles x %DOD is the largest.
Let's say each 10% DOD takes your EV 3 miles (i.e. your range is 30
miles to 100% DOD). A 6v 220ah golf cart battery actually delivers 75a
for 105 minutes = 131ah. For a 48v 131ah pack, that's 48v x 131ah / 30
miles = 209 watthours/mile; about right for a small light EV. Then the
distance you can drive for each of the above depths of discharge is:
20% DOD = 6 miles
50% DOD = 15 miles
80% DOD = 24 miles
100% DOD = 30 miles
So, your total mileage for the pack is
2000 cycles x 6 miles/cycle = 12,000 miles at 20% DOD
1200 cycles x 15 miles/cycle = 18,000 miles at 50% DOD
600 cycles x 24 miles/cycle = 14,400 miles at 80% DOD
200 cycles x 50 miles/cycle = 10,000 miles at 100% DOD
Your lowest battery cost per mile is thus to discharge them to about 50%
DOD before recharging.
Sorry for all the numbers. Hope no one's eyes glazed over!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
My comments are inserted
Death to All Spammers wrote:
So, present day: I did some research on the internet. I was especially
impressed by the Honda CRX conversion by an electrical engineer in
Oregon named Victor Tikhonov whose website is:
http://www.metricmind.com/ac_honda/main.htm
Will take it as a compliment ;-)
Just a gut feeling, but I think Tikhonov's way is the way to go. I'm
doing a
cost analysis now. One problem: I can't find ANYONE who sells
ultracaps. The
supercapacitor industry seems to be in flux at the moment. Are they
in a
hold pattern, waiting for the price to go up?
Ultracaps will benefit you the most if you have so-so battery
which cannot supply/absorb much power. So if you use powerful
enough battery or controller/inverter is your power limit,
ultracaps will not make sense. With high energy/low power
batteries (high internal resistance for instance), it is a good
idea from the technical point of view, but the cost wise you need
to decide.
Victor can supply you with one sweet system, top-of-the-line all the
way, but you need to be comfortable with his price range
(http://metricmind.com/prices.htm).
The controller -- was close to $10,000.00.
Depends on the motor choice - it comes as a system.
The range may be $9k-$13k for the motor/inverter,
this depends on the motor power you want,
but the DC-DC, main/precharege contactors, throttle
pot, cabling and other supporting things come with it
at no extra cost.
This battery charger package is over $10,000.00.
?? The charger is ~3k. if you count ultracaps, it was
about $8k in my case (close-up surplus sale by Maxwell)
but technically the caps are not part of the charging system.
See above, you may not need them at all.
--- End Message ---
