EV Digest 5948
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Build EV For Someone Else
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: WKTEC flyers
by Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Motor size questions
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by Ron Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Fw: Importing Kit Cars
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Motor size questions
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: AC from motor
by Storm Connors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: WKTEC flyers
by Chip Gribben <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Hope for EV's
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: WKTEC flyers
by MIKE WILLMON <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Motor size questions
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: AC vs DC
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
19) Re: Cheepee EV parts
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Motor size questions
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) RE: Build EV For Someone Else
by "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Motor size questions
by Scott Serr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: AC from motor
by Lee Hart <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
requirements:
No future upgrades
All new parts
Total weight, 2500 lbs
0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
60 mile range
Using Lead Acid Batteries
What components and how many would you use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Your criteria are a little tight. 60 mi. @ 35 mph
straightaway is no problem. 60 at 60 with some decent
hill-work while staying under 2500 lbs. is a no-go
with lead acid batteries.
Try the link on my webpage, and also browse wikipedia
under "electric vehicles". You may also type in Tango
EV, if you have a sweet budget.
60 miles per hour looks like a commuter, but when you
indicate wanting to get there in under 5 seconds, it
looks like you want to race. There _are_ plenty of EV
racers on the list... so why also go for range?
Best to you,
--- Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else
> with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use?
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
John, it's so well-done, that it left me with the
impression that it comes with the film. Ie, they may
already have it. Is there any way to check with the
theater in advance?
--- "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So, does anyone have sample flyers that could be
> handed out at a
> showing of WKTEC?
> It's coming to my local theater soon, and I hope to
> be able to park
> my Sparrow there during the showings.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering wheel?
Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
does a larger motor, in general, use more, same, or less energy to
produce the same torque? power? for example, given my car requires X
units of power to travel at 65MPH, how much battery energy (relativity)
would a 8", 9", or 11" motor drain for the same time period. put
another way, how does increasing motor size effect range for a
particular car? what about highway vs stop-and-go? is motor size even
an apples-to-apples comparison given that i'll likely need different
components to drive different motor? sorry for not being able to ask
questions using better language.
in reality an 8" or 9" motor will likely produce enough torque for me to
putt along my short commute to work. but say i want to shift less or
not at all; why not buy an 11" motor, say the Warp 11 or something.
hope that jumble of words makes sense :)
mike
ps. if this has been covered before, i would gladly accept a link to
some information rather a lengthy reply.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Curtis,
I have the feeling you are looking for a 5-legged horse.
For 60 miles range you need at least 1000 lbs of lead
if not more, so where do you find a glider of about
1200 or 1300 lbs that can take that much weight, if
there is a glider like that available at all?
(I count on at least 200 lbs motor, adaptor, DC/DC,
controller, cabling and other materials)
And how can such a light car take the forces to do
0-60 in 5 sec and why would you want to do that in
a daily commuter?
My truck does 0 - 60 in 40 seconds and although I
am not proud of that number, it is a very useful
commuter vehicle, you just need to plan for the
freeway merging and allow faster vehicles to pass.
It made my life a lot less stressful, driving at
55 mph most of the time, but in rush hour traffic
with lots of people merging and immediately braking
right in front of me, I am at a disadvantage.
Still, having 0-60 of 20 seconds would be plenty
fast enough for an EV commuter unless you intend
to race it.
Again, my feeling is that you have put together the
impossible, scraping specs and requirements from
different vehicles that are good for different
purposes and you try to cram it into one vehicle,
expecting extreme performance and extreme light
and extreme cheap. Sorry, you will have to decide
what type of car you want, then optimize for that
purpose to get an affordable deal.
Your current requirements are only possible if you
have virtually unlimited budget and you can build
your own vehicle from the ground up from exotic
materials, as you would do for a space craft.
Not even Tesla did that, they 'only' modified
some parts of the Elise that they did not like.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Curtis Muhlestein
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 4:17 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Build EV For Someone Else
If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
requirements:
No future upgrades
All new parts
Total weight, 2500 lbs
0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
60 mile range
Using Lead Acid Batteries
What components and how many would you use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Electric 550 Spyder - upgrade it to WarP 11 and Zilla2K
http://www.ohler.com/ev/spyder/index.html
IMHO, you'll need to drive at 30mph without any stop/go, hills or quick
acceleration to travel 60 miles.
You can drive far or you can drive fast, but you can't drive far fast.
btw, it's for sale at http://www.eaasv.org/forsale.html
Ron
Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
requirements:
No future upgrades
All new parts
Total weight, 2500 lbs
0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
60 mile range
Using Lead Acid Batteries
What components and how many would you use?
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: Eddie
To: Lawrence Rhodes
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Importing Kit Cars
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/rules/import/FAQ%20Site/pages/page2.html
10. Importing a disassembled vehicle.
A disassembled vehicle that is shipped without an engine and transmission is
treated for importation purposes not as a motor vehicle, but instead as an
assemblage of motor vehicle equipment items. Such an assemblage can lawfully be
imported into the U.S., provided any equipment included in the assemblage that
is subject to FMVSS, but was not originally manufactured to comply with that
FMVSS or was not so certified by its original manufacturer, is removed from the
assemblage prior to entry into the U.S. Equipment items that are subject to the
FMVSS include tires, rims, brake hoses, brake fluid, seat belt assemblies,
glazing materials, and lamps, reflective devices, and associated equipment.
If the assemblage is shipped with an engine and power train (even if those
components are not installed), it would be regarded for importation purposes as
a motor vehicle, and would have to be either manufactured to comply with all
applicable FMVSS, and be so certified by its original manufacturer, in the form
of a label permanently affixed to the vehicle, or be determined eligible for
importation by NHTSA and be imported by an RI or by a person who has a contract
with an RI to bring the vehicle into compliance with all applicable FMVSS after
importation.
Lawrence Rhodes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
2b. Re: Bringing electric cars into the country as a kit???
Posted by: "Eddie" [EMAIL PROTECTED] eddiecolumbus
Date: Fri Sep 29, 2006 11:48 am (PDT)
My recollection of the info published on the web site where you can learn
about importing things said a car was a car, whether assembled or not (some
time ago).
The Woodbury's used the kit function to sell their cars in this country & to
sidestep DOT rules. Do you know the power behind the rule you are talking
about or where to access it? Thanks. Lawrence Rhodes.......
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do you Yahoo!?
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mike,
It is hard to generalize, but Lee indicated some time ago
that unlike ICE engines who become less efficient when
sizing up (as they will be lighter loaded, thus have to
work at a worse efficient spot in their characteristic,
in Electric Motors, the larger motors are more efficient
because the parts have a larger space to work better
while (except for extreme machines) the tolarances of the
rotor to stator gap and other loss factors stay the same,
the increase in space allows lower loss in windings
(larger dia = lower resistance) and other improvements,
most of which add up to a higher efficiency for the
already very efficient electric motor.
(You are talking about the ballpark from 90% to 95%,
so there is not much impact on range from this factor,
more impact on motor temperature and the like).
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Mike Sandman
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 5:45 PM
To: EV Discussion List
Subject: Motor size questions
does a larger motor, in general, use more, same, or less energy to
produce the same torque? power? for example, given my car requires X
units of power to travel at 65MPH, how much battery energy (relativity)
would a 8", 9", or 11" motor drain for the same time period. put
another way, how does increasing motor size effect range for a
particular car? what about highway vs stop-and-go? is motor size even
an apples-to-apples comparison given that i'll likely need different
components to drive different motor? sorry for not being able to ask
questions using better language.
in reality an 8" or 9" motor will likely produce enough torque for me to
putt along my short commute to work. but say i want to shift less or
not at all; why not buy an 11" motor, say the Warp 11 or something.
hope that jumble of words makes sense :)
mike
ps. if this has been covered before, i would gladly accept a link to
some information rather a lengthy reply.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Bob: Road racing and land speed racing need both range and speed.
Only drag racing gets away with only needing 1/4 mile of range. :)
Back to Curtis' question. Look at
<http://www.acpropulsion.com/>.
Their Tzero kit car does what you want on lead acid batteries. They
also built a Honda Civic that almost did what you want (I think 0-60
was 6 seconds?).
The Tango also does it:
<http://www.commutercars.com/>
I'm not sure it is legally a car, but here is another 4 wheeled
vehicle that does it:
<http://www.wrightspeed.com/>
I am a little surprised none of the above cars goes for full aero,
like the EV1 did. That might be a niche for a new manufacturer. If
Firefly succeeds, someday we'll have cheap lead acid batteries that
are 1/3 the weight -- wouldn't that be cool! I wouldn't design to
that just yet, though!
Just curious, how did you come up with your specs?
--- Bob Bath <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> ...
> 60 miles per hour looks like a commuter, but when you
> indicate wanting to get there in under 5 seconds, it
> looks like you want to race. There _are_ plenty of EV
> racers on the list... so why also go for range? ...
>
> --- Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > If you were going to build an EV for someone else
> > with the following requirements:
> >
> > No future upgrades
> > All new parts
> > Total weight, 2500 lbs
> > 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
> > 60 mile range
> > Using Lead Acid Batteries
> > What components and how many would you use?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
--- Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > AC/DC conversion is easy. DC/DC conversion is
> > expensive.
Battery chargers using AC are easy and cheap to build.
Devices to charge from high voltage DC (DC/DC
converters) seem to be expensive.
>
> AI'm not exactly sure what you mean by this, but I'm
> guessing you're still
> missing something.
>
>
> > If I tapped the shunt between the field and
> commutator
> > wouldn't I get pulsating DC?
>
> What shunt?
I guess I used the wrong word? What do you call the
cable that connects the armature to the field?
>
> Whether you see constant DC or pulsing depends on
> the type of speed
> control you are using. The brushes on a typical
> commutator touch the next
> segment before they break with the current segment.
> This makes the
> voltage going through the comutator pretty much
> constant, assuming you are
> applying a constant DC voltage to them.
I assumed that the brushes created a rising and
falling current. So that is the flaw!
> If you are
> applying a pulsating
> DC, you'll see pulses.
>
> If you are using a typical PWM DC controller, I
> believe you'll see a
> sawtooth waveform. The sawtooth increases in
> voltage when the PWM
> transistors are conducting and decreases when they
> are off (and the
> voltage is then running through the freewheeling
> diodes).
>
> Of course this assumes a series wound DC motor, a
> shunt wound motor might
> be different depenind on how you control it.
>
> > I would think this could
> > then go into a transformer to allow voltage
> > reduction
> > for charging the 12v battery.
>
> It's an interesting idea, unfortunately you'd have
> no control over the
> charging voltage going into the 12V battery without
> adding some extra
> circuitry. By the time you've added enough to
> properly control the
> charging, you've basically built a DC-DC
> converter....except that it only
> runs when the main motor runs and causes varying
> amounts of interferance
> (though probably negligible) with your drive motor.
>
> >
> > This is too obvious, so I must be ignorant of
> > something somewhere.
> > storm
> >
> >
Thanks for the explanation. I just knew it was too
good to be true!
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi John,
I have about 120 flyers left over from the premier in Maryland two
weeks ago.
These are the full color "Not Dead Yet!" flyers Marc Geller did. They
are printed on glossy card stock and I can send them out to you
tomorrow by Priority Mail.
I also have only 3 Adult Medium and 3 Youth Medium "Who Killed the
Electric Car?" T-shirts left. They are $25.00 each which includes
shipping Priority Mail.
Chip Gribben
EVA/DC
http://www.evadc.org
On Oct 1, 2006, at 7:14 PM, Electric Vehicle Discussion List wrote:
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: October 1, 2006 7:02:07 PM EDT
To: "EV Discussion List" <[email protected]>
Subject: WKTEC flyers
So, does anyone have sample flyers that could be handed out at a
showing of WKTEC?
It's coming to my local theater soon, and I hope to be able to park
my Sparrow there during the showings.
--
John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream.... http://
www.CasaDelGato.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I went to the laundry mat like I have done each sunday since my dryer
broke and a girl there made my day. It started as an explination of why
to go to school (cause I had books with me and she asked) and I
mentioned that school allowed me to get a better job and convert the car
to electric and do other fun things. After the initial disbelief of not
using gas, she asked how I got the cord to stretch so far. Surprised she
new what I meant by electric, I explained it had batteries like a cell
phone or toy car and I just plug it in each night.
Her response: "I want one"
I promised by the time she was old enough to drive, there would be
electric cars for her. I have about 10 years to make good on that
promise, little Venessa is only 6 years old.
I guess our primary mission is to drive everyday and lead by example.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hmmmm,
The espyder.org web site is down and the whois registration
is anonimized via 'whoisprivacyprotect'.
I do not see any confirmation that Ohler.com actually
achieved 5 seconds, as his web site says that he tries to
shoot for 5 seconds without confirmation of what he
actually did achieve. The highest speed listed on the
website is 130 mph.
Yet his vehicle weight is already higher than Curtis required...
Price originally around $30,000 for the fast version.
NOTE that Peter Ohler's eSpyder is the only one built since
1994, according the owner's gallery (text readable in Google
Cached pages, as the web site is down)
and that was eSpyder nr 6.
All first 5 were built in 1994,
the first 4 by: Steve Heckeroth, Albion, CA
and the 5th by Marty Pienkofer, Sebastopol, CA
Alternative website with more info:
http://www.renewables.com/ElectricSpyder.htm
http://www.renewables.com/Permaculture/Charging.htm
Though all that info is over 10 years old.
The owners:
#1: not listed, my guess is it's Steve's own car.
#2: GNB, Melbourne, Australia
#3: Owner: Al Simpler [EMAIL PROTECTED]
#4: not listed
#5: built by Marty Pienkofer, Sebastopol, CA
#6: built in 2002 by Peter Ohler, owner: Scott Rodamaker
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I would research the background and experiences
(do your due diligence) before stepping into someone
else's dream. Sorry, but I do not get a warm and fuzzy
feeling from what I see - though do not take my opinion
and background from Googling the internet and ask the
other people on this list that have been around much
longer and in particular ask the (previous) owners,
except when they want to sell you their car.
Success,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Ron Archer
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 5:14 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
Electric 550 Spyder - upgrade it to WarP 11 and Zilla2K
http://www.ohler.com/ev/spyder/index.html
IMHO, you'll need to drive at 30mph without any stop/go, hills or quick
acceleration to travel 60 miles.
You can drive far or you can drive fast, but you can't drive far fast.
btw, it's for sale at http://www.eaasv.org/forsale.html
Ron
Curtis Muhlestein wrote:
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use?
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
The ones at the EAA site are good: http://www.eaaev.org/Flyers/index.html
The trifold is a nice simple one to get attention. The Info ones are good to
print front/back for a nice 5-page stapled info pack.
There's also the "Not Dead Yet" post card size from Plug-In-America:
http://www.pluginamerica.com/downloads.shtml
these are good to leave a handful or so stuck under your windshield wipers
I even made business cards with the info on my truck with the link to its
EVAlbum page. On the back are links to other EV sites.
I've given out over 200 of the business cards in the last couple months, pretty
much to anyone who stops to ask questions.
:-)
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
----- Original Message -----
From: "John G. Lussmyer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Sunday, October 1, 2006 3:01 pm
Subject: WKTEC flyers
To: EV Discussion List <[email protected]>
> So, does anyone have sample flyers that could be handed out at a
> showing of WKTEC?
> It's coming to my local theater soon, and I hope to be able to
> park
> my Sparrow there during the showings.
> --
> John G. Lussmyer mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Dragons soar and Tigers prowl while I dream....
> http://www.CasaDelGato.com
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Check this out...
http://www.acpropulsion.com/ACP_PDFs/EAASV_101803.pdf#search=%22acpropulsion
%2C%22lead%20acid%22%22
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Bob Bath
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 6:19 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
Your criteria are a little tight. 60 mi. @ 35 mph
straightaway is no problem. 60 at 60 with some decent
hill-work while staying under 2500 lbs. is a no-go
with lead acid batteries.
Try the link on my webpage, and also browse wikipedia
under "electric vehicles". You may also type in Tango
EV, if you have a sweet budget.
60 miles per hour looks like a commuter, but when you
indicate wanting to get there in under 5 seconds, it
looks like you want to race. There _are_ plenty of EV
racers on the list... so why also go for range?
Best to you,
--- Curtis Muhlestein <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else
> with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use?
>
>
Converting a gen. 5 Honda Civic? My $20 video/DVD
has my '92 sedan, as well as a del Sol and hatch too!
Learn more at:
www.budget.net/~bbath/CivicWithACord.html
____
__/__|__\ __
=D-------/ - - \
'O'-----'O'-'
Would you still drive your car if the tailpipe came out of the steering
wheel? Are you saving any gas for your kids?
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I am sorry to be so blunt but the term "No future upgrades" hit me really
hard since I have been evolving in the post PC era. Is this a hypothetical
question or did someone actually approach you with these parameters?
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "Curtis Muhlestein" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 4:17 PM
Subject: Build EV For Someone Else
If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
requirements:
No future upgrades
All new parts
Total weight, 2500 lbs
0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
60 mile range
Using Lead Acid Batteries
What components and how many would you use?
--
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--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
Mike,
It is hard to generalize, but Lee indicated some time ago
that unlike ICE engines who become less efficient when
sizing up (as they will be lighter loaded, thus have to
work at a worse efficient spot in their characteristic,
in Electric Motors, the larger motors are more efficient
because the parts have a larger space to work better
while (except for extreme machines) the tolarances of the
rotor to stator gap and other loss factors stay the same,
the increase in space allows lower loss in windings
(larger dia = lower resistance) and other improvements,
most of which add up to a higher efficiency for the
already very efficient electric motor.
(You are talking about the ballpark from 90% to 95%,
so there is not much impact on range from this factor,
more impact on motor temperature and the like).
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Cor, thanks for your response. that is encouraging! since it is hard
to generalize, how about some specifics. for now assume lead-acid batts
and a good-but-nothing-fancy controller. also, let's remove cost from
the argument for the moment. here is some data about my car and
intended usage:
- 1999 beetle
- OEM curb weight (i.e. pre conversion) of about 2800 lbs
- i am 200 lbs, no passengers
- drag coef. of about .38
- usage is daily commuter
- 30 miles range: round-trip to work 25 miles, plus 5 mile round trip
for lunch
- 50% 35mph with stop-lights, 50% freeway 55mph
is there any appreciable drawback to going with an 11" motor (or
larger). as opposed to an 8" or 9" motor? you mention motor heat as a
factor, can you (or someone) elaborate?
kind regards,
mike
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
In a message dated 10/1/2006 12:25:00 PM Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Have you considered an EV motorcycle/bike?>>>
I just completed such a project Mayyied a BMW chassis and front fork to an
Ezgo golf cart axle and motor.
Runs at 25-30mph on the flat, 19mph on hills up to 45 going down hills.
Range seems to be about 35 miles.
Using a 48 volt pack and a 8.2HP motor. Cost was about $1500, plus the old
motorcycle stuff I had sitting in my basement.
Just joined the list too.
Matthew Parkhouse
Colorado Springs, CO
Here's the link to my online scrapbook:
_http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hobo5743bmw/album?.dir=/3c9bscd&.src=ph&.tok=ph
XaygFBv57K_89e_
(http://pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/hobo5743bmw/album?.dir=/3c9bscd&.src=ph&.tok=phXaygFBv57K_89e)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Mark E. Hanson wrote:
I found some cheepee EV parts... stock number 15831-RL contactors for
$3.50 ea from www.mpja.com
That's a good price. The three contacts in series should be good for
120vdc. For AC rated contacts that don't have a DC rating, I derate them
4:1. This contactor can switch 600vac resistive, which would be 150vdc.
It says it's rated 35 amps, but only has quick-connect terminals which
are only good for 15 amps each.
I wired the 3 contacts in series and put a MOV V14E130 (130vac,
170vdc) across the contacts and haven't seen any arcing.
That's a good plan.
Although the coil is rated at 24Vdc it pulls in fine (when mounted
vertically) at 12Vdc.
Contactors normally pull in at around half their rated voltage; however
the contacts close slower and with less force, so you need to reduce the
ratings a bit.
An alternative is to use a 2-pole switch and a capacitor to activate it,
wired as a voltage doubler. When off, the capacitor is charged to 12v,
When you close the switch, it connects the capacitor in series with the
12v supply, providing a momentary burst of 24v. Once the capacitor
discharges, a diode applies the 12v continuously to hold it in.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> does a larger motor, in general, use more, same, or less energy to
> produce the same torque? power? for example, given my car requires X
> units of power to travel at 65MPH, how much battery energy (relativity)
> would a 8", 9", or 11" motor drain for the same time period.
You are mixing units. How much energy does it take to make 100 HP? Sort
of like asking how many gallons of water are in 80 psi, or how many inches
in 100mph?
Power = Torque * RPM
Energy = Power * Time
So Energy = Torque * RPM * Time.
So there is no real way to answer the question, as asked.
You could have two identically sized motors that produce vastly different
torque when fed the same power.
I.e One might produce 100 ft-lbs of torque at 5,000 rpm, and the other
produce 500 ft-lbs of torque at 1,000 rpm. The same power output, but way
different torque.
Larger motors generally can produce a given amount of power for a longer
period before overheating.
How efficient a motor is depends mostly on how well it is constructed.
Larger motors are easier to make more efficient than smaller ones because
they are larger which means you can get the same relative precision with
larger tolerances.
There is also a limit to how much power a given motor can produce for even
a short period of time without self destructing. I.e there is no way to
get 100 HP out of a slot car motor, if you tried to push that much power
through it, it would vaporize.
> put
> another way, how does increasing motor size effect range for a
> particular car?
Depends on the motor, not the size. They make 8" motors that are more
efficient than 11" motors.
It also dpends on the application.
You'd need to compare the efficiency of the motors are a given power
level. If you look at the torque chart of a given motor, it's efficiency
will start at 0% at zero rpm, and increase as the RPMs increase until you
hit the maximum efficiency point, and then the efficiency will drop off.
But the curve changes at different applied voltages/currents.
So you'll most likely hit the maximum efficiency point on a 8" ADC at a
lower power level than you will on a 9" ADC. If all you need is this
lower power point, then the 8" might be more efficient for you.
As an extreem example an 11" motor strapped to a bicycle will be WAY less
efficient than a 3" motor designed for bicycles. The 11" motor will draw
more power to just idle than the 3" motor will while propelling the bike.
> what about highway vs stop-and-go? is motor size even
> an apples-to-apples comparison given that i'll likely need different
> components to drive different motor? sorry for not being able to ask
> questions using better language.
>
> in reality an 8" or 9" motor will likely produce enough torque for me to
> putt along my short commute to work. but say i want to shift less or
> not at all; why not buy an 11" motor, say the Warp 11 or something.
> hope that jumble of words makes sense :)
Well, in that case the 11" motor will be less efficient. Shifting down at
low speeds allows you to keep the motor spinning up near it's maximum
efficiency point. By driving a fixed gear, whenever you are driving slow
(or at the slow speed part of accelerating) the motor is in it's low
efficiency zone, so even if the motor is more efficient when at it's
maximum efficiency point, you are spending more time in it's low
efficiency RPMs so seeing lower overall efficiency.
>
> mike
>
> ps. if this has been covered before, i would gladly accept a link to
> some information rather a lengthy reply.
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use?
How much money are you planning on spending? It looks like you are going
to need a significant amount of unobtanium to build this vehicle, that can
get expensive.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Money is not the issue at this point in time. I am just trying to get
different ideas from different people. Price will came later.
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Peter VanDerWal
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 10:05 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Build EV For Someone Else
> If you were going to build an EV for someone else with the following
> requirements:
>
> No future upgrades
>
> All new parts
>
> Total weight, 2500 lbs
>
> 0-60 in approx. 5 seconds
>
> 60 mile range
>
> Using Lead Acid Batteries
>
>
>
> What components and how many would you use?
How much money are you planning on spending? It looks like you are going
to need a significant amount of unobtanium to build this vehicle, that can
get expensive.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I too have the "motor size question." I'm trying to summarize the great
details (here and in the other replies) into something I can easily
digest at this point. :)
It sounds like going from a 9" motor to a 11" motor has no inherent
downside on range. What really matters is if you are running a motor
(any motor) in it's efficient RPM range. There is no inherent loss in
efficiency with a larger motor.
Am I on track? From a 60 mile endurance point of view... with a
continuous load.
Thanks,
Scott
On 10/01/06 22:01, Peter VanDerWal wrote:
>> does a larger motor, in general, use more, same, or less energy to
>> produce the same torque? power? for example, given my car requires X
>> units of power to travel at 65MPH, how much battery energy (relativity)
>> would a 8", 9", or 11" motor drain for the same time period.
>>
>
> You are mixing units. How much energy does it take to make 100 HP? Sort
> of like asking how many gallons of water are in 80 psi, or how many inches
> in 100mph?
>
> Power = Torque * RPM
> Energy = Power * Time
> So Energy = Torque * RPM * Time.
>
> So there is no real way to answer the question, as asked.
>
> You could have two identically sized motors that produce vastly different
> torque when fed the same power.
> I.e One might produce 100 ft-lbs of torque at 5,000 rpm, and the other
> produce 500 ft-lbs of torque at 1,000 rpm. The same power output, but way
> different torque.
>
>
> Larger motors generally can produce a given amount of power for a longer
> period before overheating.
> How efficient a motor is depends mostly on how well it is constructed.
> Larger motors are easier to make more efficient than smaller ones because
> they are larger which means you can get the same relative precision with
> larger tolerances.
>
> There is also a limit to how much power a given motor can produce for even
> a short period of time without self destructing. I.e there is no way to
> get 100 HP out of a slot car motor, if you tried to push that much power
> through it, it would vaporize.
>
>
>> put
>> another way, how does increasing motor size effect range for a
>> particular car?
>>
>
> Depends on the motor, not the size. They make 8" motors that are more
> efficient than 11" motors.
> It also dpends on the application.
>
> You'd need to compare the efficiency of the motors are a given power
> level. If you look at the torque chart of a given motor, it's efficiency
> will start at 0% at zero rpm, and increase as the RPMs increase until you
> hit the maximum efficiency point, and then the efficiency will drop off.
> But the curve changes at different applied voltages/currents.
> So you'll most likely hit the maximum efficiency point on a 8" ADC at a
> lower power level than you will on a 9" ADC. If all you need is this
> lower power point, then the 8" might be more efficient for you.
>
> As an extreem example an 11" motor strapped to a bicycle will be WAY less
> efficient than a 3" motor designed for bicycles. The 11" motor will draw
> more power to just idle than the 3" motor will while propelling the bike.
>
>
>> what about highway vs stop-and-go? is motor size even
>> an apples-to-apples comparison given that i'll likely need different
>> components to drive different motor? sorry for not being able to ask
>> questions using better language.
>>
>> in reality an 8" or 9" motor will likely produce enough torque for me to
>> putt along my short commute to work. but say i want to shift less or
>> not at all; why not buy an 11" motor, say the Warp 11 or something.
>> hope that jumble of words makes sense :)
>>
>
> Well, in that case the 11" motor will be less efficient. Shifting down at
> low speeds allows you to keep the motor spinning up near it's maximum
> efficiency point. By driving a fixed gear, whenever you are driving slow
> (or at the slow speed part of accelerating) the motor is in it's low
> efficiency zone, so even if the motor is more efficient when at it's
> maximum efficiency point, you are spending more time in it's low
> efficiency RPMs so seeing lower overall efficiency.
>
>
>
>> mike
>>
>> ps. if this has been covered before, i would gladly accept a link to
>> some information rather a lengthy reply.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm Connors wrote:
AC/DC conversion is easy. DC/DC conversion is
expensive. DC motors are really AC created by the
commutator/brush system. Field weakening does
something I don't quite understand yet.
Right so far!
If I tapped the shunt between the field and commutator
wouldn't I get pulsating DC? I would think this could
then go into a transformer to allow voltage reduction
for charging the 12v battery.
I'm not quite sure what you are suggesting here. However, you are close
to being on the right track, so I'll guide you down that one :-)
The PWM controller for a DC motor outputs a square-wave *voltage*. It
goes from 0v to full pack voltage at a frequency of about 15 KHz
(depending on the brand of controller). The on-time of this square wave
is varied from 0% to 100% to control motor speed.
The motor sees this square wave voltage; but motors are an *inductive*
load. Its inductance forces the *current* to be closer to DC. So here
are the motor voltage and current with a 120vdc pack and the motor
running at 100 amps average (view with a fixed-width font):
+120v__ __ __
| | | | |
| | | | | __+110 amps (max)
motor | /|\ | /|\ | __+100 amps (average)
volts |/ | \|/ | \| __ +90 amps (min)
| | | | |
0v__ | |__| |__| motor amps
The motor *voltage* is always 0v or 100v. The motor current is a
sawtooth, ramping up from 90 to 110 amps when the motor voltage is 120v,
and ramping down from 110 to 90 amps when the motor voltage is 0v. The
average motor current is therefore 100 amps DC.
Now to answer your question.
Yes, you *can* use the 120v square wave coming from the controller as if
it were AC, to drive a transformer (to power a DC/DC converter, for
example). The catch is that the controller's output has a huge DC
offset. It isn't swinging from -60v to +60v like "real" AC; it always
swings from 0v to +pack voltage.
A transformer's primary is nothing but a coil of wire. It has almost
zero DC resistance. If you connected it directly to the PWM controller,
it would quickly burn up due to the large DC current that would flow
(that 100 amps average DC current)!
To make it work, you have to block the DC while letting the AC pass on
to the transformer. This is what a capacitor does. Power the transformer
primary through a series capacitor. Now the transformer sees 120vac
peak-to-peak, but does not see any DC.
There are a couple problems that make this rarely practical.
First, the PWM controller is outputting something like 15 KHz. Most
common transformers are built for 60 Hz, and would be very inefficient
at 15 KHz. You'd have to get a special transformer intended for 15 KHz.
Next, the "120vac" coming from your AC outlets is really going from 0 to
+170v to 0 to -170v, which is 340vac peak-to-peak. So the 120vac
peak-to-peak you'd get from your controller is equivalent to about 40
volts RMS. You'd need a special primary winding to step this down for
12v battery charging.
The series capacitor needs to be properly chosen to match the load. Too
much capacitance gets big and costly, and wastes power. Too small, and
your 12v power supply can't deliver enough current to be useful. You
can't pick one value of capacitor that works well for any 12v load current.
Finally, the transformer is only powered when the PWM motor controller
is operating. It quits when the car is stopped (0% on-time), or when the
controller is at full throttle (100% on-time).
Nevertheless, it's an interesting idea that sometimes has applications.
--
Ring the bells that still can ring
Forget the perfect offering
There is a crack in everything
That's how the light gets in -- Leonard Cohen
--
Lee A. Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, leeahart_at_earthlink.net
--- End Message ---
