EV Digest 6055
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: Controller co-op, Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Philippe Borges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Formula
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: Bradley GTE Project
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) RE: Formula
by "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Re: Yazaki to Avcon connector swap-out on EVI ICS-200?
by Nick Austin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) RE: Formula
by Mike Willmon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) re:1980 VW Rabbit project for sale
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) RE: Formula
by "Don Cameron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: Formula
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) RE: Formula
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) RE: Formula
by Steve Powers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Freedom EV Update, Sunrise news
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: After Market Electric power steering box
by Mike Sandman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Formula
by Nick Viera <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by John Wayland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: Freedom EV Update, Sunrise news
by "Roderick Wilde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
If you want to make it inexpensive, simple and effective i built a 100V600A
out of this design very easily (though i used big mosfets not IGBT and had
to rework current sensing)
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/racingcontroller.html
It has minimal function, but can be made for less than 500$ by every one who
have minimum electronics skill.
For more complet motor controller with other functions (rev limiter,
contactor/precharge command, LCD with volts/amps on dashboard etc.)
it would be better starting from scratch with a microcontroller as Atmel (my
favorite ;^) or such powerfull/inexpensive chip...
cordialement,
Philippe
Et si le pot d'échappement sortait au centre du volant ?
quel carburant choisiriez-vous ?
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr
Forum de discussion sur les véhicules électriques
http://vehiculeselectriques.free.fr/Forum/index.php
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:17 PM
Subject: Controller co-op, Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
>
> Hi Rush, James and All,
>
> ----- Original Message Follows -----
> From: "Rush" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Date: Sat, 21 Oct 2006 17:55:47 -0700
>
> >James wrote -
> >
> >> For someone like Rich to take on a project like this, I
> >> feel that it would take something like a subscription
> >> project. Everyone who thinks they will want one (or
> >more) puts up (for example) $250 to Rich. They get the
> >> value of what they put up as a discount on their kit
> >> once they are ready and Rich gets the cash to do the
> >> project.
> >> What do people (and especially Rich, or anyone else who
> >> may be in a position to design such a system) think?
> >>
> >
> >
> >Well, Jerry Dycus has already done something like this and
> >a lot of us supported him. His 3 wheeler is coming along
> >nicely. I think it is important to support efforts that
> >will benefit all of us. I would have no trouble at all
> >contributing an amount for development and then getting a
> >discount when 'production' happens.
>
> While our group did work, it didn't work as I
> planned, getting about 100 members to put up $25/month for 6
> months or so was the plan, but mostly it was 4 people who
> have put up 3/4 of it and the rest in lesser amounts that
> they could afford. Added to that those with expertise,
> goods, tools donated them allowing the Freedom EV to be put
> on the road with tooling made for more, for only $15k!!
> For a Controller co-op, I'd try for the
> club/membership with dues of say $20/month from 100 EV'ers
> for several months would be enough to design, test, and put
> into production the midle range controllers we need we can't
> get now, into production.
> To do that, someone people trust to head a group,
> though they supported me ;^D, start a member only yahoo
> group to make up the designs, prototype building, testing
> with volenteers doing most of the design, prototype work.
> The head person is very important as they must make
> desisions as the group probably never will, just talk it to
> death. The leader should open with design susgestions, pick
> the best 3 and assign people to flush them out into
> prototypes with the groups help, then pick the best driver,
> protection,, power stages, features you want, probably by
> combining the best of the prototypes. But one person has to
> call the shots as otherwise, it won't get done.
> Then bid it out to whoever wants to build them or
> leave it open source, letting anyone build, improve them.
> The ones we need are like the Raptor with 600-800
> motor amps. But the unit should be made in the natural
> voltage ranges the Fets, ect work at and releatively simple.
> With more current available, lower voltage packs with their
> inherently lower costs, could be used for more EV's at an
> economical price with good performance. It should be modular
> so it can be easily, inexpensively fixed by the owner.
> So a 72/96vdc for smaller EV's, MC's, a 120-144 for
> medium Ev's to 3500 lbs and a higher voltage one for those
> would want more power. They should be low priced, like
> $500-$800-$1300 respectively about or less. We don't need
> another $2k controller.
> For series/parrallel you only need a controller
> shutdown while switching, not hard as Alltrax has it on
> their smaller controllers needed for reverse anyway.
> They could be sold as kits too, the possibilities are
> endless.
> After paying $1300 for my motor/controller. I'm ready
> to build my own units and will start on it as soon as the
> Freedom EV is into production and have time, money for more
> projects.
>
>
> >
> >Developing something of this nature takes time, effort and
> >materials. Making sure that Rich has a bank account to draw
> >on for development makes sense.
> >
> >How many people are there on the list? 300 or so? If
> >everybody gave $25 that would be $7500... Think of it as
> >membership or fees for all the good advice and having our
> >questions being answered by some pretty knowledgeable
> >people.
>
> There is a lot more listers than that. A
> membership idea is excellent for this purpose, spreading the
> risk, allowing many more to help.
> So who wants to head such a project? You don't
> have to be technically versed nessasarily but have a good
> idea of what's needed and able to lead others to get it
> done. Most of it is settled tech now, we just need to
> combine it in the form we need.
> With good leadership, we could have controllers
> in 4-6 months!! Who will answer the call? This is probably
> the most nessasary product needed to make good EV's happen.
>
> Jerry Dycus
> >
> >Rush
> >Tucson AZ
> >www.ironandwood.org
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Still learning & planning
>
> Given a 96 Volt Flooded Lead Acid battery pack using 16 six volt
> batteries, what is the formula used to determine wattage & amperage? I
> know...basic ohms law...Please explain. Thanks.
There is no formula for calculating amperage. That is a specification.
It's listed as part of the specs for the batteries. The max amps the
battery can produce is usually listed as CA or CCA or something similar.
Of course pulling max amps from a battery is bad for it.
To calculate wattage you need to know how much the batteries voltage will
sag under a given current, and then multiply the resulting voltage times
the current.
I.e. if your Six volt batteries sag to 5.3V when supplying 400 amps, then
you power from the whole pack will be 16 * 5.3V * 400Amps = 33,920 watts.
Note: the voltage your batteries will sag to, depends on your state of
charge. As the batteries get closer to being empty, they sag motr. So
when they are freshly charged you batteries might only sag to 5.4V @ 300
amps, but when they are halfway empty they might sag below 5V. It's
generally coinsidered a /bad/ thing to take your battery voltage below
5.25V on 6V lead-acid batteries, so you probably would want to avoid 400
amp discharges when they are that empty.
>
> I have two projects:
>
> 1. 1980 Jet ElectraVan
> 2. Bradley GTElectric
>
> RE: ElectraVan...if I stay with original configuration of 16 six V
> flooded....What charger recommended to replace existing Lester?
> Also, what DC/DC converter recommended for this ElectraVan?
If you are sticking with flooded batteries, then the Lester is OK as long
as it still works. A better charger might extend your battery life
slightly,but it could easily be 20 years before this pays off, by that
time you probably won't be using flooded batteries in it any more and will
need to change to a different charger either way.
>
> With all this talk about Curtis & Zilla controllers, trying to decide what
> amperage controller I might use to replace my existing GE EV1 SCR
> controller and advantages/disadvantages of doing this.
Well, what are you looking for?
More current means more torque from the motor, which means you can climb
hills faster, accelerate faster, and perhaps have a higher top speed. So
what kind of performance do you want?
If mediocre performance is acceptable, get a 400 amp controller. Want
slighly better performance? Get the 550amp. Want sports car like
performance? Buy a 'Zilla.
Note the 'Zilla won't do you ANY good if you still have flooded batteries.
These can't supply much more than 550amps anyway, at least not without
damaging them prematurely.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Disk brakes are a must with the extra weight.
AGM batteries deliver lots of power, are free of maintenance but require a
balancer for long life.
PFC chargers are in wide use and have high reliability. Some care needs to
be taken when hooking up. Best bang for the buck. I did not choose Zivan's
as there were a number of people with reliability issues.
Since I have AC, I cannot comment on the choice of DC-DC or controller.
(although I think most will say Zilla is the way to go - however check on
availability).
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don
Sent: October 22, 2006 11:16 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Bradley GTE Project
Steve, Thanks
Environment-weather conditions or topography/terrain? Suffice to say-serious
hills/range of at least 30 miles/top speed of 55-60. Due to hills, I believe
it would be a good idea to modify drum brakes to disk. I work a 12 hour
shift and am able to charge it at work.
I like the idea of 12 V AGM batteries-what manufacture is recommended?
Sealed/maintenance free or require watering? I think it would be worth the
extra $ to go with Zilla controller instead of Curtis. PFC charger?
Opinion of Zivan? What about DC/DC?
Don Davidson
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Powers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: Bradley GTE Project
> First, you really need to make a list of your specifications, with an
understanding of your actual environment and road conditions.
>
> Top speed needed: Lets say 80 MPH
> Acceleration: lets say 0-40 MPH in 8 sec, 0-60 MPH in 12 sec
> Range: worst case stop and go driving between 0 and 45 MPH = 60 miles
>
> Then, you can start thinking about what batt technology and other
components you want. You could spend a lot of $ on something and get an end
result you weren't really interested in.
>
> The Bradley has room for 16 batts. You could just go with 16 AGM 12 V
batts of similar footprint to the current golf cart batteries = 192 V.
Zilla 1k HV controller, PFC charger, ... and you would have a very nice very
driveable vehicle. Going to NiMH is a whole leap beyond that - and a
substantial amount of $. Is it really worth it, based on your requirements?
I'm not saying the above will do that acceleration and range in the Bradley,
but it should be somewhere close to that.
>
> Steve
>
>
> Don <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> If I had unlimited $ today, what would be the cost and what would be
involved with modifying my original 96 V DC configuration Bradley GTE with
GE EV1 SCR controller/Lester Charger as Bradley provided to NiMH batteries?
Advantages/disadvantages of considering this approach?
>
> Don Davidson
>
>
>
>
> ---------------------------------
> How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messenger's low PC-to-Phone call
rates.
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As someone who has made mistakes with electrical formulas before, this
doesn't seem quite right...
(I've just re-read my post. Sorry Roland, I'm not having a go at you, I
just want to make sure we get the maths right.)
Mark
> From: Roland Wiench
>
> W=Q x E
>
> Where W = Watts is the energy absorbed in a
> electrical circuit in watts per second
Power is measured in watts, energy in joules or watt.seconds (1j = 1w.s)
So in this case, W (not Watts) is energy in watt.seconds (not watts per
second)
>
> Q = Coulombs is the quantity of electricity
> which is transferred between two points
>
> E = Voltage or Electro Motive Force
>
>
> Dividing both sides of the equation by time it takes for the
> quantity Q to
> flow in a circuits becomes:
>
> W/T = (Q x E)/T or P = I x E
>
> Where P Is the Power in amount of time.
>
> I is the rate of flow in seconds or hour
I is the flow of current (coulombs per second, or more commonly amps.
1C/s = 1A)
>
> E is the e.m.f
And EMF is measured in volts
>
>
> Simplify to:
>
> W = I x E (watts or energy - no time)
W in this case is power, not W for energy in the earlier equation.
Maybe you should have stuck with P for power?
>
> Wh = I x E (watt hour - amount for 1 hour)
Because now you've multiplied the LHS by time (hour) but kept the RHS
unchanged.
That doesn't make sense to me.
>
>
> Example:
>
> If you are charging a battery pack at 240 volts AC at
> 50 amps AC, then
> 240V x 50A = 12 KW or 12,000 watts (input into the charger)
>
> If you charge for 1 hour, than this will become 12 KWH or if
> you charge for
> 1 second, than the cost of Power will be 12 Kw/3600 secs
> (3600 seconds in
> a hour).
>
> If you drive the EV for one hour at 50 battery amps and 100
> volts, than you
> will use about 50 ADC x 100 VDC = 5KW Per Hour or 5KWH.
No no no. "Per" means divide. A KWH is multiplied together.
The numbers here are correct ONLY because you used 1 hour.
(divide or multiply by 1 is the same)
>
> The HP (horsepower) use, where 1 HP = 746 watts:
>
> HP = Watts/ 746 = 5000 / 746 = 6.7 HP
>
>
> If you look on some motor labels on a motor, or in the
> specifications of
> that motor, You may see data as:
>
> 165V @ 175A 32HP 6000 RPM 83% Effiency.
>
> To calculate this:
>
> W = 165V x 175A = 28,875 watts (input energy)
W is power again, not energy.
> 28,875 x .83 = 23,966 watts (output energy)
(Same)
> HP = 23,966 / 746 = 32.1 HP
>
>
> Roland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Sun, Oct 22, 2006 at 02:11:25PM -0400, Charles Whalen wrote:
<..snip..>
> Those of you who have dealt with Meltric (e.g. Tom, Ron), do you know if it
> is possible to purchase the Avcon connector itself separately (or attached
> to just the charging cable) without having to buy the entire powerpack unit?
Yes. I've bought a few replacment cables from them.
Just email them and ask for a quote.
> Will it work to simply swap out a Yazaki connector for an Avcon connector on
> an older EVI ICS-200 unit? Or would the ICS-200 powerpack need a hardware,
> firmware, or software upgrade as well? If so, is it possible to get such an
> upgrade?
I have no idea about this.
Good luck!
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Peter VanDerWal wrote...
>
> Note the 'Zilla won't do you ANY good if you still have flooded batteries.
> These can't supply much more than 550amps anyway, at least not without
> damaging them prematurely.
>
If your pack voltage is high enough the 550A limit on the floodies will still
allow the full 1000A to flow in the motor circuit
(at least at low RPM and motor voltage). I am presently running econo mode on
my Zilla with Battery Amps limited to 250A and I
still see peak Motor Amps ~700A. Ths gives performance about the same as with
the ICE up to about 45 mph. If your pack voltage is
lower (significantly less than the motors rated voltage then this difference
between Battery and Motor Amps will not be near as
large. But I have no doubt that if I replace my AGM's with floodies I could
get better than acceptable performance (to me) with a
550A batery draw.
Don,
The formula for this would be Battery Amps X Battery Volts = Motor Amps X Motor
Volts. The trick is that while at low RPM when
first starting off the voltage on the motor is low so the current through it
can be quite large compared to your battery current.
This tells us that to maximize your motors power performance for standing start
accelerations you can get by with less current
from the batteries if you use a higher pack voltage. This of course is with
the use of the Zilla. Note that some have posted in
other threads that limiting battery current on other controllers also
necessarily limits the motor current. Check with the list
before using this formula with other than the Zilla.
Mike,
Anchorage, Ak.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Love your situation. However in San Francisco with a garage that can hold
two cars bumper to bumper with no way to access the rest of the rooms behind
the garage I'm already marginal.. A bunch of two wheeled vehicles also have
to fit & 3 other cars on the street. (my lot is 25 x 50. The pressure is
very great to eliminate. Plus my insurer charges by the car not the driver.
Lawrence Rhodes....
----- Original Message -----
From: "steve clunn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 7:03 AM
Subject: re:1980 VW Rabbit project for sale
> Hi Lawrence ,,, I got no 2 in when my wife's car engine blow , she was
happy
> with another car and " the only thing to do with her old car was to
convert
> it . No 3 was her sons car when Its engine blow , after no 3 I didn't have
> to much trouble sneaking them in . Now I'm off in the woods on 5 acres
with
> 2 Russian pu's
> 3 hyndias
> 1 Porsche 924
> 1 Porsche 912 ( converting now )
> 2 Mitsubishis pu
> 1 ford ranger pu
> 1 Honda prelude ( with 4 wheel steering )
> 1 mg
> 1 trumphim spit fire
> 1 juguular sedan
> 1 Volvo
> 1 MR2
> 1 toyto torcell
> 1 dune buggy
> 1 Saturn ( converting now )
> 1 Mazda pu ( my work truck , )
>
> In some ways I guess I own my good luck in scoring the new work shop to
her
> , after all for years she "Wished I had some other place to do my electric
> car thing .
> Steve clunn
>
> > Lawrence,
> > My deepest sympathy, try to explain to your wife that 2 is the minimum
> > you should have on the road and #2 is mandatory if #1 breaks down! I
> > found that after #3 they (wives) stop paying attention, especially if
you
> > buy/sell parts to pay for the hobby - (re-investing is the argument). I
> > have 5 and do not plan to sell any, as a matter of fact I am thinking of
a
> > nascar style frame with a funny car body for #6, but first I have to get
> > #5 running.
> > My wife didnt mid after she would get lots of questions when she used it
> > to run errands, many would ask how she got one and they couldn't. Oh
yea,
> > isn't #2 hers or maybe #3?
> > dont give up
> > Jimmy
> > I hope to add an article about my Solectria E10 to my website soon.
> > https://dm3electrics.com/
> >
> >> > From: "Lawrence Rhodes" ,
> >> Subject: 1980 VW Rabbit project for sale.
> >> Date: Fri, 20 Oct 2006 17:27:49 -0700
> >>
> >> I've craigs listed my Rabbit.
> >> http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/car/223529458.html The wife has put her
> >> foot
> >> down. Only one electric car. 80% complete VW Rabbit. Rear battery
box
> >> in.
> >> Motor in. Needs: Motor mount, controller, DC/DC, charger & batteries.
> >> Contact Lawrence Rhodes 415-821-3519
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Don,
Here are some formulas that might help:
The basic electrical formulas used for EVs:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_Electricity.html
Electrical formulas specific to EVs:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BatteryPhysics.html
The basic kinetic formulas:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BasicPhysicsOfMotion.html
Formulas specific to calculating a motor size:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CalculateMotorSize.html
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don
Sent: October 22, 2006 4:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Formula
Still learning & planning
Given a 96 Volt Flooded Lead Acid battery pack using 16 six volt batteries,
what is the formula used to determine wattage & amperage? I know...basic
ohms law...Please explain. Thanks.
I have two projects:
1. 1980 Jet ElectraVan
2. Bradley GTElectric
RE: ElectraVan...if I stay with original configuration of 16 six V
flooded....What charger recommended to replace existing Lester?
Also, what DC/DC converter recommended for this ElectraVan?
With all this talk about Curtis & Zilla controllers, trying to decide what
amperage controller I might use to replace my existing GE EV1 SCR controller
and advantages/disadvantages of doing this.
Lots of questions for one posting...Thanks for advice Don Davidson
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Fowler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 1:39 PM
Subject: RE: Formula
> As someone who has made mistakes with electrical formulas before, this
> doesn't seem quite right...
>
> (I've just re-read my post. Sorry Roland, I'm not having a go at you, I
> just want to make sure we get the maths right.)
>
> Mark
>
>
> > From: Roland Wiench
> >
> > W=Q x E
> >
> > Where W = Watts is the energy absorbed in a
> > electrical circuit in watts per second
>
> Power is measured in watts, energy in joules or watt.seconds (1j = 1w.s)
> So in this case, W (not Watts) is energy in watt.seconds (not watts per
> second)
You are corrected, I should have said W is in joules (watt-seconds)
>
> >
> > Q = Coulombs is the quantity of electricity
> > which is transferred between two points
> >
> > E = Voltage or Electro Motive Force
> >
> >
> > Dividing both sides of the equation by time it takes for the
> > quantity Q to
> > flow in a circuits becomes:
> >
> > W/T = (Q x E)/T or P = I x E
> >
> > Where P Is the Power in amount of time.
> >
> > I is the rate of flow in seconds or hour
>
> I is the flow of current (coulombs per second, or more commonly amps.
> 1C/s = 1A)
>
> >
> > E is the e.m.f
>
> And EMF is measured in volts
>
> >
> >
> > Simplify to:
> >
> > W = I x E (watts or energy - no time)
>
> W in this case is power, not W for energy in the earlier equation.
> Maybe you should have stuck with P for power?
>
> >
> > Wh = I x E (watt hour - amount for 1 hour)
>
> Because now you've multiplied the LHS by time (hour) but kept the RHS
> unchanged.
> That doesn't make sense to me.
>
> >
> >
> > Example:
> >
> > If you are charging a battery pack at 240 volts AC at
> > 50 amps AC, then
> > 240V x 50A = 12 KW or 12,000 watts (input into the charger)
> >
> > If you charge for 1 hour, than this will become 12 KWH or if
> > you charge for
> > 1 second, than the cost of Power will be 12 Kw/3600 secs
> > (3600 seconds in
> > a hour).
> >
> > If you drive the EV for one hour at 50 battery amps and 100
> > volts, than you
> > will use about 50 ADC x 100 VDC = 5KW Per Hour or 5KWH.
>
> No no no. "Per" means divide. A KWH is multiplied together.
> The numbers here are correct ONLY because you used 1 hour.
> (divide or multiply by 1 is the same)
>
> >
> > The HP (horsepower) use, where 1 HP = 746 watts:
> >
> > HP = Watts/ 746 = 5000 / 746 = 6.7 HP
> >
> >
> > If you look on some motor labels on a motor, or in the
> > specifications of
> > that motor, You may see data as:
> >
> > 165V @ 175A 32HP 6000 RPM 83% Effiency.
> >
> > To calculate this:
> >
> > W = 165V x 175A = 28,875 watts (input energy)
>
> W is power again, not energy.
>
> > 28,875 x .83 = 23,966 watts (output energy)
>
> (Same)
>
> > HP = 23,966 / 746 = 32.1 HP
> >
> >
> > Roland
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
>> W=Q x E
>>
>> Where W = Watts is the energy absorbed in a
>> electrical circuit in watts per second
>
> Power is measured in watts, energy in joules or watt.seconds (1j = 1w.s)
> So in this case, W (not Watts) is energy in watt.seconds (not watts per
> second)
>
-snip-
>> W = I x E (watts or energy - no time)
>
> W in this case is power, not W for energy in the earlier equation.
> Maybe you should have stuck with P for power?
>
I knew a guy who was going through college working on an EE degree.
One of his text books used the same units and was confusing the heck out
of him. Turns out the text book was using a W for one and an itallic W
for the other. The problem was that the font in the text book made it
difficult to tell the difference between W and /W/.
Personally I thought it was a pretty stupid decision to use W for both
units even if one of them was Itallic.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
As you can see, to get the performance you are used to in an ICE car, you need
50+ kW. And, you need to sustain that for at least 15 sec to accelerate.
That all said, thats why a 120 V / 400 A controller (under load with 20 golf
car batteries) which can only put out around 40 kW burst and can't maintain it
for all that long may seem slow. I don't know what a Curtis 400 A can sustain
continuous or how long it can produce 400 A. But, I know it is less than the
50 kW minimum I'd like to see in even a light weight car. I'd bet on
acceleration, it would be like 30kW on average. If anyone knows, please
confirm or correct me.
Of course, people have cars with 20 kW, 28 kW ... Some even have 12 kW. It
all depends on what your particular expectations are.
Steve
Don Cameron <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Don,
Here are some formulas that might help:
The basic electrical formulas used for EVs:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_Electricity.html
Electrical formulas specific to EVs:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BatteryPhysics.html
The basic kinetic formulas:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_BasicPhysicsOfMotion.html
Formulas specific to calculating a motor size:
http://www.cameronsoftware.com/ev/EV_CalculateMotorSize.html
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Don
Sent: October 22, 2006 4:22 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Formula
Still learning & planning
Given a 96 Volt Flooded Lead Acid battery pack using 16 six volt batteries,
what is the formula used to determine wattage & amperage? I know...basic
ohms law...Please explain. Thanks.
I have two projects:
1. 1980 Jet ElectraVan
2. Bradley GTElectric
RE: ElectraVan...if I stay with original configuration of 16 six V
flooded....What charger recommended to replace existing Lester?
Also, what DC/DC converter recommended for this ElectraVan?
With all this talk about Curtis & Zilla controllers, trying to decide what
amperage controller I might use to replace my existing GE EV1 SCR controller
and advantages/disadvantages of doing this.
Lots of questions for one posting...Thanks for advice Don Davidson
---------------------------------
How low will we go? Check out Yahoo! Messengers low PC-to-Phone call rates.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi All,
Things have been moving along on the Freedom EV,
having my D+D ES31 motor, Alltrax 7245 controller delivered
by Bob Rice and Lee Hart who came down to pick up the
Sunrise body to get it into kitcar production ;^D. That's
going to get it done a lot faster as it would have taken me
a while before I could get to it. They left last night
heading back to Net Gain/Warfield Motors where Bob's car is,
Sunrise going to Minn with Lee for body finishing, making a
mold, tooling from it.
Lee donated a lot of spare EV parts, wire,
meters, nice transformer/charger parts, DC/DC, ect for the
Freedom, helps a lot getting it started on a slim budget.
Thanks Lee, Bob for all your help! We spent many hrs on
composites, structures, electronics, motors, ect.
I got the windshield made from flat truck
windshield glass, made flanges for it, doors, built a dash
but will probably change it, got materials for the rear
suspension, front spindle brackets to mate the brake/spindle
to the double A Arms, found the taper needed to mount the
ball joints, ect. So many little parts!!!!!! They just eat
up time. Luckily time is one thing I have cheap.
We fit Bob who is 6'5" in it for a size test so it
takes large people well with the right seats. And I got in
with him so it handles 2 wide well too ;^D
This week I'll concentrate on the suspension,
reinforcing the doors, hood, windshield and making the rear
door, it's a wagon. Then it's just ;^D a matter for bolting
on the motor, drive and wiring it up, upolstery, steering,
brakes, paint, ect.
Probably won't hit my Nov 5 date but will be close.
I'm able to work longer now before I have to rest should
help things along.
I took some pics of it, will finish the roll
tommarow so in about a week, they should be up and everyone
can finally see what it looks like with doors, windshield,
wheels.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Michael Perry wrote:
That is correct... many are (or will be) connected into the onboard
computer. From what I was reading, it does sound like there are a few
stand-alone models being installed right now. (You just need the stand-alone
controller & the hardware.)
http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/application.jsp?nodeId=02Wcbf07jS1504
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi all,
Peter VanDerWal wrote:
Note the 'Zilla won't do you ANY good if you still have flooded batteries.
These can't supply much more than 550amps anyway, at least not without
damaging them prematurely.
I disagree, the Zilla can make an impressive difference even with
flooded batteries! Even though you'll presumably have the battery
current set to a lowish value (like 400A) to protect the flooded
batteries, the Zilla is in most cases is still able to provide the full
motor loop current due to the inherent current multiplication of a buck
converter at low duty cycles.
This can really improve the low-end torque relative to what you'd
get from a Curtis or a Raptor 600 controller (which, from my experience
never allowed more than about 650A in the motor loop). So if you use
flooded batteries but still need a lot of low-end push to climb hills or
because you have a heavy vehicle, etc... I think a controller like the
Zilla /is/ worth using.
--
-Nick
1988 Jeep Cherokee 4x4 EV
http://Go.DriveEV.com/
http://www.ACEAA.org/
--------------------------
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello to David and All,
The EVDL is a great place because you can always get different opinions,
then sift through them and pick what makes sense to you. Let's see how
much of what David says here, makes sense or no sense.
David Roden wrote:
John W. is passionate about this subject, that's for sure, but I have to say
that not everyone will react as strongly (and negatively) to Curtis
controllers as he does.
I would agree here. I 'am' passionate about the EVs we are building
ourselves, that ultimately, others will see, perhaps ride in, and then
perhaps go on to either build one for themselves, or at least demand
that EVs be made available. I want EVs to be the best they can be, and I
want them to wipe away the nearly set in stone stigmas of being weird,
being slow, being problematic, being short on performance, etc.
Purposefully choosing a sub-standard motor controller that makes what
the majority of those subjected to it feel is an awful irritating
squeal, is simply a bad idea that goes contrary to positively putting
EVs in a good light.
Really, how often do Curtis controllers fail full on when powered up without
a precharge? I don't recommend omitting the precharge, but I ran one that
way for years with no ill effects (I didn't know any better ;-).
Quite often, thank you. I have a 1231C carcass here, with the end blown
clear off after it was powered up by another EVer who didn't heed my
advice of using a precharge circuit. I know of at least 10 instances of
this, not just one or two. David, you were lucky and it's bad advice to
spread around. You're statement 'I didn't know any better' seems
appropriate for many of your comments to follow.
I also disagree with John's recommendation to use a 1221B - unless the motor
is an 8" ADC or a Prestolite. From all the reports I've seen, the 1221B is
a buckin' bronco with a 9" ADC.
I ran a 1221B in Blue Meanie from '93 to mid '94 with an ADC nine inch.
It was smooth, no bucking bronco, no ill effects whatsoever. Even White
Zombie had a Curtis 1221B and an ADC nine inch for a short while...it
too, was smooth, no bucking bronco, no ill effects. I helped design and
build the E-Car 65 Mustang powered by an ADC nine inch and a Curtis
1221B...it was very smooth, had no bucking bronco simulations, and had
no ill effects. The last time I saw the car about three years ago and it
still had the Curtis 1221B and ADC nine incher. Then again, I used a
precharge circuit to protect the controller. I also used the Curtis
1221B in two Rabbit conversions, and one had a GE nine inch stuffed into
it...it was smooth, had no bucking bronco, and had no ill effects. I
also used a 1221B and an ADC nine inch in at least three pickup
conversions...they were all smooth, had no bucking bronco, and had no
ill effects. David, I just gave you multiple reports, so I guess you
should change your 'from all reports' to 'I guess I didn't know'?
I am aware that most failures were indeed, with the ADC 9 inch, but
that's probably because most conversions at the time were using this
more popular motor and many of the period conversions were based on
extremely heavy wet cell powered vehicles where heavy footed throttle
was often used trying to lug the things up hills, more than to an
inductance problem caused by the ADC 9 inch. Curtis decided to redesign
the controller, the birth of the 1221C and 1231C, what I believe to be
the worse EV controllers ever made. It seems as if the engineer in
charge of the project was either hearing impaired, or more probable, he
had never made an EV himself and had never actually test driven his
awful creation in a real EV. It's simply a bad design. Others at the
same time with far less resources than a Curtis engineer had at his
disposal were able to make reliable controllers. They didn't take the
Curtis short cut with the two stage frequency thing, and managed to
build their controllers to operate silently.
Now, about that "irritating non-varying squeal." We've been round and round
on this before but I'll post it again for the newbies.
It may be that John's ears are especially sensitive to this frequency. I
suspect he also is bothered by that EVs that aren't totally silent (although
squealing tires don't seem to bother him ;-). There is something to this.
I could look up and list at least 20 posts from others, not just me, who
have had non-EVers either complain or poke fun about the awful Curtis
squeal. The unfortunate reality is though, that they aimed their
criticism at the EV, not the controller, for these types didn't even
know what a controller was.
However, for most people the "Curtis squeal" is hardly bothersome. It lasts
for a second or so when you accelerate. You may hear it when you're
creeping into a parking space. You'll seldom hear it otherwise.
David, your nose must be growing longer! A second? Seldom hear it? My
friend John Tuss, against my advice, bought and installed a Curtis 1231C
squealer in his Datsun pickup. By the way, the previous controller was
also a 1231C, and when he bought the truck it still had the blown
controller mounted in the truck. It had not been connected with a
precharge circuit...care to guess how the controller died? With the
replacement 1231C installed, the truck was once again miserable to be
around. I drove it through my neighborhood at 15 mph, and it constantly
made a squeal that made folks in the yards look up, and yes, their dogs
barked, and in general it was totally embarrassing. Some of my neighbors
actually approached me about the truck, knowing that I am the local EV
nut I am, and asked why it made the LOUD squeal...really David, I'm not
making this up. EVs should not be an embarrassment, and we should not
have to make up excuses for them.
It is NOT loud, certaintly not as loud as an ICE's engine.
Come on, David! Today's modern ICEs are very quiet, no, not like an EV,
but way quieter and more pleasant than that irritating, non-varying
constant squeal of an EV with a 1231C.
People will NOT laugh and point at your car. Dogs will NOT run howling from the vicinity. Indeed, most people (or dogs;-), inside the car or out, won't notice it at all.
Again, not even close to being true, read the above. Just in case, here'
more.....
Example one:
At the 'Gasless in Seattle' EVent years ago, there were two EVs that had
these terrible controllers. One was coming across a grassy expanse at
around 10 mph, as I was with a small crowd of perhaps 20 show goers who
had come to get acquainted with EVs for the first time. One lady said to
her friends, "What's that noise? Is it that electric car coming towards
us? If so, that does it for me, I'd never want a car that makes THAT
noise!" David, this is almost a direct quote. I had to then go into my
EVangelist mode and tell her all about 'better' conversions that used
more advanced motor controllers that didn't make the noise. In short, I
was doing damage control....nice controller!
Example two:
Again, at a Seattle car show that included a parade, unfortunately for
the rest of us, we had a guy with his 1231C power EV in the parade...it
constantly squealed. I was in the crowd and someone other than me was
driving my EV. Again, a women made it painfully aware that the noise was
awful....she simply clasped her hands over her ears as the EV
approached, then after it passed by, released her ears and said loudly,
"What's wrong with THAT one?"
Example three:
At a NEDRA race, I was being interviewed about the positives of EVs that
day...fun, excitement, unbelievable acceleration, etc., when during the
video and interview someone cruised by with a Ford Escort with a 1231C
squealing away. They actually stopped the interview (an interview that
WAS positive) and followed the car with the camera/mike pointed at the
car to capture the noise as I heard the reporter guy saying copy
something like, "Well, they aren't ALL quiet, this one's making quite a
racket!" David, I couldn't make this stuff up, it happens all the time.
Example four:
I was at an EV get-together at a restaurant. Someone rolled up with
their 1231 squealing upon where three people pivoted around to see what
was making the noise. One comment went like this, "That's like running
your fingers down a chalk board!"...nice image, huh?
The brief bit of whine when accelerating is NOT a big deal, and it provides
significant benefits. Having that short period of low frequency chopping
allows the controller to have a smooth takeoff with the commonly used 9" ADC
series motor.
Only required evidently, in a poorly designed Curtis 1231C. Funny, DCP
Raptors and T Rexes didn't need the squealing frequency to get the job
done....and, they were far smoother on take-off than the Curtis! Funny,
Auburn Kodiacs and Grizzlies didn't need the squealing frequency to get
the job done....and, they were far smoother on take-off than the Curtis!
Funny, Zillas don't need the squealing frequency to get the job
done....and, they are far smoother on take-off than the Curtis!
I used a Curtis PMC-25 controller for years. It chopped at 2 kHz all the
time (I think it used bipolar transistors).
Check my videos page and watch the '84 footage of the Long Distance SEVA
rally, where you can painfully hear this exact controller, a PMC-25
loudly squealing!
Curtis controllers are more like Ford Escorts than BMWs.
You should maybe be more specific, because not all Curtis controllers
are bad. In fact, they make some very nice controllers, and in the
forklift world, they are leaders in affordable, reliable, silent AC
controllers! David, you were of course, referring to the 1231C being
like a Ford Escort....I'd say it's more akin to a Yugo with a a
squealing fan belt!
See Ya......John Wayland
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Jerry, thanks for the update and it looks like you are making a lot of
progress. One thing in your post just jumped out at me and hit me between
the eyes. Did you actually mean you are using a flat windshield. I have
owned many cars throughout the years. My first was a 1927 phonebooth model T
Ford coupe. I have owned many older cars over the years and as I remember it
flat windshields went out around 1949. Correct me if I'm wrong here. As I
remember it they went to curved windshields around 1950 but they were still
two piece except for one piece ones on some of the GM cars like Buick and
Cadillac. The point being that flat windshields went out around 1950 due to
aerodynamics. Please tell me I read your post wrong. I mean no offense. This
just struck a nerve and I just need clarification.
Roderick Wilde
----- Original Message -----
From: "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Sunday, October 22, 2006 5:42 PM
Subject: Freedom EV Update, Sunrise news
Hi All,
Things have been moving along on the Freedom EV,
having my D+D ES31 motor, Alltrax 7245 controller delivered
by Bob Rice and Lee Hart who came down to pick up the
Sunrise body to get it into kitcar production ;^D. That's
going to get it done a lot faster as it would have taken me
a while before I could get to it. They left last night
heading back to Net Gain/Warfield Motors where Bob's car is,
Sunrise going to Minn with Lee for body finishing, making a
mold, tooling from it.
Lee donated a lot of spare EV parts, wire,
meters, nice transformer/charger parts, DC/DC, ect for the
Freedom, helps a lot getting it started on a slim budget.
Thanks Lee, Bob for all your help! We spent many hrs on
composites, structures, electronics, motors, ect.
I got the windshield made from flat truck
windshield glass, made flanges for it, doors, built a dash
but will probably change it, got materials for the rear
suspension, front spindle brackets to mate the brake/spindle
to the double A Arms, found the taper needed to mount the
ball joints, ect. So many little parts!!!!!! They just eat
up time. Luckily time is one thing I have cheap.
We fit Bob who is 6'5" in it for a size test so it
takes large people well with the right seats. And I got in
with him so it handles 2 wide well too ;^D
This week I'll concentrate on the suspension,
reinforcing the doors, hood, windshield and making the rear
door, it's a wagon. Then it's just ;^D a matter for bolting
on the motor, drive and wiring it up, upolstery, steering,
brakes, paint, ect.
Probably won't hit my Nov 5 date but will be close.
I'm able to work longer now before I have to rest should
help things along.
I took some pics of it, will finish the roll
tommarow so in about a week, they should be up and everyone
can finally see what it looks like with doors, windshield,
wheels.
Thanks,
Jerry Dycus
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