EV Digest 6074
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) RE: AGM battery charging
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by Jeff Shanab <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) Re: Splined Adapters, Was: Inexpensive DC Motors with Keyed Shafts
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: I can build your controller
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) RE: GM to Manufacture a Plug in Hybrid?
by Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Re: AGM battery charging
by Christopher Zach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Non Traditional EV Drivetrains
by "Bruce" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
11) Re: I can build your controller, CC and controller options
by "jerryd" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Dale Curren" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Navitas TSE600-96, Re: I can build your controller
by "Doug Hartley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: brrr cold zero F today
by "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Re: Low Tech EV Drivetrains
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Re: Non Traditional EV Drivetrains
by GWMobile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: I can build your controller, CC and controller options
by "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: Avcon problem
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--- Begin Message ---
Not only are his AGMs beyond bulk stage, but also beyond
the absorption (last 20%) and the equalisation charge and
now he was simply boiling them. They went into what is known
as thermal runaway, as hot batteries have lower voltage
than cooler batteries, the risk of the charger that has
no current control but is a transformer-rectifier type
which relies on the grid to be constant - well, sometimes
the gris is not contant and unexpectedly rises 10% in
voltage. That will not only make your current go through
the roof, but also at the end of charge they will boil and
vent and start to heat up and thus lower their voltage
and thus draw more current, until something gives.
Hopefully that is a fuse.
NEVER take an AGM over 15V at any significant current,
or it will vent and you will have permanent reduced capacity.
The 144V pack has 12 batteries, at 15V this is 180V max for
the pack. The current should be reduced whenever you are
charging at higher than 163V or you run the risk of venting.
It is easy to destroy a pack through charging. It has been
achieved in only a few months on new packs. Real shame to
see a $5000+ pack wither away in a few thousand miles.
It only takes a high-current charger blasting away until
max pack voltage and hold it there (venting away).....
There is a reason for a 3-stage smart charger, although my
smart charger consists of a lab supply with current and
voltage limit that I only need to reset occasionally to
do the equalisation part, normally I only do the bulk and
a good part of the absorption charge by keeping it at
float voltage (13.6V) all night, every day that I have driven
the truck below 80% charge.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Don Cameron
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:54 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: RE: AGM battery charging
>From what you describe, I think you have only completed the bulk stage and
not done the absorption stage of charging. If this is the case, your
batteries are not fully charged. Are you able to measure the charge current
as well as the voltage?
Once the batteries reach their acceptance voltage, then it needs to be kept
at this voltage until the current drops below 0.5amps over an hour. Is your
manual charger just a "bad boy" transformer charger, or can it do CC or CV?
Don Cameron, Victoria, BC, Canada
see the New Beetle EV project www.cameronsoftware.com/ev
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: October 27, 2006 6:20 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: AGM battery charging
Thanks. Before I got this I started charging at 6A. Voltage went to 189.7
after a couple hours. An hour later to 191.9. 20 mins to 192.1. 12 min later
193.3. 6 min after that it dropped to 192.0. 2 min after that it dropped to
191.9 and I turned off the charger. David Roden didn't mention that the
voltage would decrease. (Somebody reportrd that their terminal voltage would
be 186-193v so I accepted the values I was seing as ok.)
FWIW, I took the car for a ride. Neat!
Thanx,
storm
----- Original Message ----
From: Cor van de Water <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:17:55 PM
Subject: RE: AGM battery charging
I have been charging my AGMs with full current (10A) until they hit the
point where they could start gassing at 13.6V per battery which is 163V for
your pack.
Hold it there until the amps are below 1A or the timer runs out (I charge
between 12 AM and 7 AM every night on lowest rate)
>From time to time you must do an equalization charge whereby
there is risk that the batteries vent (sealed battery is not completely
sealed) and I take them up to 14.8V per battery, in your case 178V at a
constant current of 1/50 of capacity. That is 1.3A for you.
When the voltage has reached the max and current tapers down, you can hold
it there for some time like 1/2 hour and then stop this charging pattern and
go back to the settings for the max current to 163V only for next night.
NOTE that regulators are a good idea on AGM as I have damaged
3 in my pack that apparently slowly drifted away from the others or that
happened to have a lower capacity.
I did get 3 replacements though, I still need to put them in but I am
driving the car every day and have not found time yet. Range is down due to
the 3 stinkers but still usable.
All other 23 batteries seem to like each other ;-) I have 4800 miles on my
pack now, since January.
Hope this helps,
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Storm Connors
Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 12:13 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: AGM battery charging
Could someone tell me how to charge 144 volts of AGMs. I have a manual
charger. I can adjust the voltage and can measure the amps.
The batteries are 33Ah (20 hr rate) Dynasty UPS12-140FRs. I've buddied
pairs, so I have 24 of them installed. I realize I can't expect much range
and they are a long way from new, but after sitting for a year they were all
at 12.2-12.3v. Seems like they should prove the concept.
I learned from Mr. Roden to charged them until the voltage stops increasing
from hour to hour.Other than that, the archives are pretty confusing. What
I'd really like are some specifics like charge at x amps until ... then set
voltage at y until amps drops below z- or something like that.
I know that the best answer is buy a proper charger. I expect these
batteries won't last forever and they will probably be replaced with flooded
8v. Buying another charger doesn't seem a good option under the
circumstances. But I don't want to kill these either.
Thanks,
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Gm makeing a plug in hybrid... Believe it when I see it
Perpetual motion.. Belive it when it is proved to me
Roland, search google for "written pole motor" It may be of interest to you.
BTW, Passing a magnetic material thru a strong magnetic field requires
work. But it is a great way of making an air conditioner.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone else have any experience with the Weldahub splined adapters?
_____________________________________________________________
Eric Poulsen wrote:
> The one that Mr. Stockton found is a G&G Manufacturing "Weldahub." Near
> as I can tell, it's for PTO attachments on tractors and other large
> equipment. The idea of the weldahub is that you get the right size hub
> for your splined shaft, and then you weld an appropriate sprocket onto
> it, and use it with roller chain.
>
> Thing is, there's no reason you can't use the weldahub as an adapter to
> other things. You can turn it down on a lathe to ensure its
> concentricity, then use it in your motor-to-transmission adapter. You
> could even have a keyway cut into it.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
.... David there is simply nothing
to be had but Curtis, Zapi & Altrax for the most part.
On a related note, anyone try the Navitas TSE 96v/600A Controller yet?
http://navitastechnologies.com/PDF/TSE600-96_Brochure.pdf
Just curious...
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Natalie Morales is a well known MSNBC anchor:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natalie_Morales
Cor van de Water
Systems Architect
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
-----Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Steven Lough
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 10:26 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Electric Vehicle Discussion List RCVR
Subject: GM to Manufacture a Plug in Hybrid?
Don, at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This morning's Bloomberg Report stated General Motors plans to compete
with Toyota and it's High Mileage cars with a hybrid and I quote: "with
a battery that recharges at any outlet"
That is Exciting news if TRUE... Not going to hold my breath --as they
say...
But here is another question: (More CURRENT ! )
Last Monday, Oct. 9th, our NBC affiliate King-5 here in Seattle,
aired
the most POSITIVE story on the Tesla Roadster I have ever seen. And I
have been monitoring the Media on EVs for over 25 YEARS.. One of our
members just happened to SNAG in on his VCR. (very low quality however...)
I called our local station, looking for a DVD copy, but it seems the
reporter, Natily Morallis (sp) is out of the So.Cal or Bay area, and it
was not a local piece.
I have searched YouTube, and Google Video, to see if any one else
captured it.. to no avail.
So here is my question to Don...Being on the INSIDE... Do you have the
where-with-all to find it and receive a copy for our EV Community to SEE
????
--
Steven S. Lough, Pres.
Seattle EV Association
6021 32nd Ave. N.E.
Seattle, WA 98115-7230
Day: 206 850-8535
Eve: 206 524-1351
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
web: http://www.seattleeva.org
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Storm:
You might want to do a quick list search for Lee Hart Zener regulators.
Get a PR2 light bulb, a 10ohm .5w resistor (put in parallel with the
bulb), a 6.2v and a 6.8v zener diode (5w) and some 10-12 gauge wire.
Assemble, put on battery. Repeat for every battery.
This will go a *LONG* way towards saving your pack. They're not rudman
regs by any stretch, but for .50c each they can't be beat.
I use them on my solar shed with 100ah Dynasty batteries; they keep the
batteries equalized and in sync. I took an old hawker and left it on a
dumb charger for 6 months and it didn't lose water. I have 50 of them
protecting my Prizm's AGM pack (50 26ah batteries) and they have already
extended the pack life from 2 years to 3 now. Instead of dropping the
pack this fall, I'll wait till the spring. Or maybe next summer.
It fills me with such joy to just set the charger to 369 volts @1amp and
just leave it alone. As one battery fills, the reg cuts over .5a of
current and clamps it (I have two strings). It's like magic elves
watching your pack.
If you can see the batteries, build the Lee Hart charge regulator with a
light bulb and a night light controller.
Chris
Storm Connors wrote:
Could someone tell me how to charge 144 volts of AGMs. I have a manual
charger. I can adjust the voltage and can measure the amps.
The batteries are 33Ah (20 hr rate) Dynasty UPS12-140FRs. I've buddied pairs, so I have 24 of them installed. I realize I can't expect much range and they are a long way from new, but after sitting for a year they were all at 12.2-12.3v. Seems like they should prove the concept.
I learned from Mr. Roden to charged them until the voltage stops increasing
from hour to hour.Other than that, the archives are pretty confusing. What I'd
really like are some specifics like charge at x amps until ... then set voltage
at y until amps drops below z- or something like that.
I know that the best answer is buy a proper charger. I expect these batteries
won't last forever and they will probably be replaced with flooded 8v. Buying
another charger doesn't seem a good option under the circumstances. But I don't
want to kill these either.
Thanks,
storm
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
What EV car conversions use something other than the traditional adapter
plate and coupling?
Here are three to start the list:
Pro EV Electric Imp Subaru, direct drive to IRS differentials in front and
rear:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/464
Gone Postal, conventional front drive plus two motor chain drive in rear:
http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=life_of_the_postal_van
Bill Bruder's Wind Wagon, air propeller drive (not a conversion but very
cool!):
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/309.html
Osmo S wrote:
> I think it´s important (and fun) to try to find fresh approaches ...
> and to questionize common solutions, even if it doesn´t always
> lead to anything useful.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I seem to have more room than you.
I was thinking of about reattaching the tap, by
drilling a hole in both the heater, and the tap, and
then attaching it. Perhaps welding Alumnium with
durafix, or maybe adding some more jb weld.
--- Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> --- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > I installed my heater today. It was 0 degrees F
> when I
> > left the garage this morning.
> > One of the pins broke off that Mr.Holmes black box
> > "ceramic" element.
>
> I'm installing ceramic heaters too and I have a
> problem that relates to what you described. In
> both the elements I bought the wires are directed
> straight away from the top. I need them to come
> off at a 90 degree angle, basically parallel to the
> airflow through the heater. But I can't bend
> the tabs and the metal the wires need to connect to
> appears to be aluminum. How do I solder or
> bond copper wire to aluminum? Mike, do you have an
> easy way to reattach the wire that broke off?
>
> Thanks
>
> Dave Cover
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited
(http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Typo. 1231C. LR.....
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: EV controllers? the 4th option...
> Wow -
>
> Do you really mean $1600 for a 1221C ? $625 shipping is kind of a lot
for
> a 15 pound box.
>
>
> Phil
>
>
> >
> >Thanks for the info. A customer of mine just paid 1600 for the 1221C.
> >That
> >must have included tax & shipping. LR..........
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: "Phil Marino" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> > >
> > > KTA iists a 1221C at $975, the 1231C at $1425, and the Z1K-LV at
$1975.
> > >
> > > So, the entry-level for a road-going controller is $975, not $1600.
> > >
> > > Phil
> > >
>
> _________________________________________________________________
> Add a Yahoo! contact to Windows Live Messenger for a chance to win a free
> trip!
>
http://www.imagine-windowslive.com/minisites/yahoo/default.aspx?locale=en-us&hmtagline
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Done right you won't blow up the controller but you will quadruple the horse
power. Worlds Funniest Home videos here it come. Darwin Awards rules
apply. Lawrence Rhodes............
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
> Well I didn't try it, but after thinking it through the fets will see
> the full voltage differential even if the control circuits do not, and
> will blow, so that is enough to convince me.
> However, one option is to have the controller by-passed with some
> contactors for a full-on at higher voltage for top speed. A "turbo"
> button so to speak. Is it worth all the trouble? maybe, probably
> blow-up at least one controller debugging it.
> Jack
>
>
>
> Cor van de Water wrote:
> > Please do not try this at home.
> > Some people have tried adding an extra 12V battery in
> > series with a 36V controller and gotten away with it,
> > but if you double the pack voltage, the following
> > can happen to the controller:
> >
> > - the voltage (back-EMF) on the motor is lower than
> > half the pack voltage, so the controller gets more
> > volts than what it's built for and dies
> > (example: at 72V the back-EMF due to the motor RPM
> > may be 40V, when switched to 144V this means 104V
> > divided between controller and motor, when you
> > release the throttle, the controller goes boom.
> >
> > - the controller sees a negative motor voltage, because
> > for the controller at 72V the motor is connected to -72
> > which can cause a polarised device in the controller to
> > fail.
> >
> > - Dependent on the controller design, the freewheel diode
> > may be conducting continuously without throttle, sending
> > full 72V and high current to the motor, with throttle
> > you will be switched to 144V but the continuous current
> > may be overloading the freewheel diode(s).
> >
> > - If controller goes in current limit, the voltage on
> > the motor can easily drop below 72V, so the controller
> > sees more than 72V.
> >
> > - Probably there are other issues that depend on the
> > design of the controller, so only inspection of it
> > can tell you if this idea is even feasible.
> >
> > You do have a big chance of blowing up your controller,
> > it is on you if you want to test it or use a controller
> > fit for the job.
> >
> > Success,
> >
> > Cor van de Water
> > Systems Architect
> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Behalf Of damon henry
> > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 12:55 PM
> > To: [email protected]
> > Subject: RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
> >
> >
> >
> >>I'd consider a 144V pack and a single 7245. Arrange the pack as 2 72V
> >>strings and parallel them at lower speeds so the controller runs of the
> >>72V pack and all batteries are discharged evenly. Above some speed,
> >>switch the packs in series and leave the controller connected across
> >>only the top 72V segment. This allows the controller to vary voltage to
> >>the motor between 72V and 144V.
> >
> >
> >
> > Wow, this is a cool idea. I have been wanting to try a higher voltage
on my
> >
> > motorcycle. Since my controller is good for 24 - 48 volts, I could use
this
> >
> > techique and try up to 96 volts without buying a new controller.
> >
> > Damon
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more...then map the
best
> > route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
> >
> >
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hi Josh, David and All,
Josh, instead of a whole controller, how about
just designing the CB, circuits and assembling those doing
final assembly here or as kits? I'd like the kit version.
Make a common driver stage, then several different output
stages of different power, voltage levels. Thanks for
stepping up Josh. And thanks to those with open source
controllers you posted. Now if someone would take the
project to cordinate the design, getting it built, tested?
Arthur, Josh, Ryan, Jeff, Philippe, ect?
David, your rant on the chinese is political.
;^p At least put OT on it's subject line.
The Navais?/ SRE600, 600amp/96vdc twin motor
capable, is an example though he is in very low production
levels, he does have reasonable prices. Maybe Doug Hartley
will let us know how his is working, more details? If we
support him, he might build high voltage versions.
A twin Alltrax 7245, twin motors is a good
choice as it puts out more power, costs less than a single
Curtis 1231C as it doesn't cut down power from overheating
so fast. While a Curtis makes almost as much as it says, it
only does it for a very, very short time, 1 sec or so,
before it cuts back to 300 amps or so. Maybe someone can put
up the specs on it, others.
By using 2 seperate systems, you have a way
to get home if one of them die. I like the 72 vdc batt pack,
say T145's for small cars like a Geo, Karmen Ghia, 2 strings
of T105's/ T-125 for a larger EV. A battery pack like this
can easily handle the short time max amps is needed as it is
a short time and with current multiplication, really doesn't
need more than about 300 amps from the battery pack to do
this, so no need of a peak AGM pack.
2 Alltrax 7245 and 2 A89 motors cost 25% less,
puts out more power than a Curtis 1231 and a 8" ADC so a
very viable choice. 2 A89's also have more com area, more
surface to disipate heat so not only put out more power, but
longer too at a lower cost.
And there is the Contactor controller,
inexpensive, reliable, self repairable and powerful.
I agree with you as I'm about to go to E
controllers for the first time, for the last 10 yrs I have
used only CC's.
Here is a recent post I put up but never saw on
the list on CC's.,
They are made up of switches/contactors that
series/parallel the battery pack to different voltages, thus
vary the motors power output.
In low power EV's, you really only need/have 2
speeds, off and on except in parking lots, ect where you
need to go slow. Any speeds between that usually is just to
get to top speed. To vary speeds between these, you just
turn them on and off, depending on whether you need to go
faster or slower.
And since you need to limit the starting amps so
you don't break things, you use a starting resistor, easily
made from SS, other wire. For under 1500 lb EV's, get a golf
cart resistor series card and rewire them in parallel is
about right, you can add, subtract to get the starting power
you want.
Field weakening, shorting the field some with say
a 12gge, 1' solid copper wire and a contactor, increases top
end power, speed and/or allows higher gearing.
A viable CC would then be 1 or 2 series/parallel
battery bank steps, a starting resistor and a field
weakening step or 2, giving 3 to 7 steps, is plenty smooth,
no different than a transmission shift when correctly sized.
And best, they have lots of power/amps naturally so
good starting torque for those times you need to start up a
hill, especially in EV's without transmissions, which would
need at least a 800 amp rating, price, to match it.
Citi-cars that replaced their CC's eith EC's were very
disappointed in their lack of power. Only when really high
amp EC's come around have they become viable in them except
in exceptionally flat places.
And the fact you can repair it yourself in a few
minutes by carrying a spare contactor or 2 and some
contacts, makes it a very good way to have an inexpensive,
reliable EV.
In my Ewoody, I was perfectly happy with just a
starting resistor and full power when it was at 45 mph and
36vdc. Resistor for starting, parking lots and on/off full
power at speeds above 10-20 mph. At 48 vdc and 60 mph, it
had too much power so needed another speed so went to
series/parallel the batts and field weakening to give me
field weakening speeds on 24 and 48 vdc and 48 vdc, for 3
more steps. If you have a lot of slow, stop and go driving,
pick the one with more S/P speeds.
Even if you have an EC, you should think about
putting in a parallel CC in case it fails, to get home. You
already have parts of it anyway to run the EC.
CC's have served well for 100+ yrs in commercial
use and a perfectly viable, some say better ;^D, controller
to use.
Jerry Dycus
----- Original Message Follows -----
From: Rocketjosh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: I can build your controller
Date: Fri, 27 Oct 2006 11:31:25 -0700 (PDT)
>I have much respect for the others making Controllers, I
>have one problem, however-I cant get a quality controller
>at a reasonable price nor a reasonable time-frame. I see an
>opportunity to provide a more reliable source of quality
>controllers.
>
>I have no intention of taking any business away from
>anyone. I want to work with someone that is well versed in
>controller design, and HELP them build something. Neither
>Otmar nor Rich are interested, I offered my help directly
>to them already. Why not leave the Design work to the
>experts and the Manufacturing to the experts?
>
>By the way. the reason I ask for some basic information
>(BOM, schematic, etc) is to get an INITIAL estimate of
>cost. How much will the parts cost is sourced overseas? If
>we find that the cost of the parts is encouraging, then we
>take the next step.
>
>Here is my proposal: Someone acts as the Electrical
>Engineer providing specifications for the controller and
>support during prototype development and testing. They get
>Royalties for every unit sold in return.
>
>In the end, more EVs will be built as a result of our work.
>Isn't that our ultimate goal after all?
>
>Josh
>
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** Reply to message from "Lawrence Rhodes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> on Fri,
27 Oct 2006 15:11:05 -0700
> > >I'd consider a 144V pack and a single 7245. Arrange the pack as 2 72V
> > >strings and parallel them at lower speeds so the controller runs of the
> > >72V pack and all batteries are discharged evenly. Above some speed,
> > >switch the packs in series and leave the controller connected across
> > >only the top 72V segment. This allows the controller to vary voltage to
> > >the motor between 72V and 144V.
I'm considering a similar setup, except when I change to series (144 volt) I
would totally bypass the alltrax. This would be a direct feed to the motor.
I'd call that "afterburner" mode and use it very rarely.
Dale Curren
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Hi Stefan, Jerry.....
A year ago I bought one of these controllers (and the Pro-bit programmer) to
test for the Freedom EV project. (About that time, Jerry decided to start
with the less expensive, more basic Alltrax 72V controller as adequate for
his purpose). This controller works well, is particularly well suited for a
vehicle without a transmission and reverse gear as it has electrical
reversing by controlling a reversing contactor, and is very
programmable/flexible with good diagnostics (using the Pro-bit).
Note that::
- It is controlled by pack voltage, not 12V e.g. for key switch enable,
forward, reverse.... you will need suitable relays to control from 12VDC.
- It can still use contactors having just about any voltage coil , using
PWM. It is programmable for different pull-in and hold voltages, for example
14V pull-in and 10V hold to reduce contactor coil current and heat.
- A reversing contactor set is required, even if you have a transmission, as
this controller expects it and tests all modes of operation at start-up to
assure no no stuck or open contactor problems. A "Pump Controller" might be
a better choice for a vehicle that has a transmission and reverse gear.
- These controllers do not handle 2 motors - at least not in the way of a
Zilla with series/parallel switching.
NEWS: I am designing circuit boards for the SOT-227B ISO-TOP package, to use
on a modular basis for boost regulators for Plug-in Hybrid conversions. I
think these could also be used as buck regulators on the usual negative
side, for motor controller purposes. These PCBs are intended to make
multi-phase interleaved (for less ripple or smaller capacitors required)
boost power supplies, controllable by a common PIC or other microcontroller.
These small circuits will include a PWM controller chip and current shunt
resistor for fast cycle by cycle peak current control as well as maximum
voltage limiting, and an over-temperature sense chip, to avoid MOSFET
deaths. The microcontroller (on a separate board to be done next) will set
the desired voltage and current limits for the overall power supply, and
"talk" to other controlling equipment on the vehicle, such as
Norm/Hybridinterfaces CAN-view. I will use these circuit boards first with
the IXYS 500V 90A MOSFETs for the Prius PHEV project, boosting from a 115V
battery pack of 6 of UEV-18XP Valence lithium ion batteries. (Higher
current, lower RDS-on, but lower voltage MOSFETs can also be used for other
projects like Mike D's Honda Insight MIMA.) I am aiming for a 72 to 120V
battery pack input, 225 to 245V 40 Amp output to the Prius NiMH battery,
controllable boost regulator for about $800.00 as a key component for
plug-in hybrid conversions. Results in a couple of months, I expect.
Best Regards,
Doug
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stefan T. Peters" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2006 1:29 AM
Subject: Re: I can build your controller
Lawrence Rhodes wrote:
.... David there is simply nothing
to be had but Curtis, Zapi & Altrax for the most part.
On a related note, anyone try the Navitas TSE 96v/600A Controller yet?
http://navitastechnologies.com/PDF/TSE600-96_Brochure.pdf
Just curious...
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120 volts in the minimum voltage for off the shelf ceramic's. We have a
special 36 - 96 volt unit that also works very well at 120 volts. I have
found over the years that the 120 volt heaters just don't put out very
much unless they are used at 144 volts or higher.
I also like wiring two units in one heater box but prefer to wire half
of each heater to separate contactors. On "low" you power up half of
each heater which are installed side by side and on "high" you power
both up.
This minimizes the effect of passing cold air through the one heater
that is not on as Don experienced.
You should be able to solder directly to the heater terminal if it is a
good quality unit.
We have now sold over 800 of our EV ceramic heaters which are available
from most of your regular EV suppliers.
BFN
Randy
Subject:
Re: brrr cold zero F today
From:
Dave Cover <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date:
Fri, 27 Oct 2006 15:42:52 -0700 (PDT)
To:
[email protected]
To:
[email protected]
--- mike golub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I installed my heater today. It was 0 degrees F when I
left the garage this morning.
One of the pins broke off that Mr.Holmes black box
"ceramic" element.
I'm installing ceramic heaters too and I have a problem that relates to what
you described. In
both the elements I bought the wires are directed straight away from the top. I
need them to come
off at a 90 degree angle, basically parallel to the airflow through the heater.
But I can't bend
the tabs and the metal the wires need to connect to appears to be aluminum. How
do I solder or
bond copper wire to aluminum? Mike, do you have an easy way to reattach the
wire that broke off?
Thanks
Dave Cover
--
Canadian Electric Vehicles Ltd.
PO, Box 616, 1184 Middlegate Rd.
Errington, British Columbia,
Canada, V0R 1V0
Phone: (250) 954-2230
Fax: (250) 954-2235
Website: http://www.canev.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Manufactures of: "Might-E Truck"
EV conversion Kits and components
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I'm guessing that the folks who keep thinking this will work, either don't
understand how motors and controllers are connected, or haven't thought
this through.
The Altrax connects to both sides of the motor, it has to in order for the
fets/freewheel diodes to work. So how are you going to connect the motor
up so that it sees full pack voltage, but the controller only sees 1/2
pack voltage, when both sides of the motor are connected to the
controller?
If you can't visualize this in your head, try drawing it out on paper.
Then go back and trace the current flow through every wire.
> Done right you won't blow up the controller but you will quadruple the
> horse
> power. Worlds Funniest Home videos here it come. Darwin Awards rules
> apply. Lawrence Rhodes............
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Jack Murray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: <[email protected]>
> Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 6:12 PM
> Subject: Re: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
>
>
>> Well I didn't try it, but after thinking it through the fets will see
>> the full voltage differential even if the control circuits do not, and
>> will blow, so that is enough to convince me.
>> However, one option is to have the controller by-passed with some
>> contactors for a full-on at higher voltage for top speed. A "turbo"
>> button so to speak. Is it worth all the trouble? maybe, probably
>> blow-up at least one controller debugging it.
>> Jack
>>
>>
>>
>> Cor van de Water wrote:
>> > Please do not try this at home.
>> > Some people have tried adding an extra 12V battery in
>> > series with a 36V controller and gotten away with it,
>> > but if you double the pack voltage, the following
>> > can happen to the controller:
>> >
>> > - the voltage (back-EMF) on the motor is lower than
>> > half the pack voltage, so the controller gets more
>> > volts than what it's built for and dies
>> > (example: at 72V the back-EMF due to the motor RPM
>> > may be 40V, when switched to 144V this means 104V
>> > divided between controller and motor, when you
>> > release the throttle, the controller goes boom.
>> >
>> > - the controller sees a negative motor voltage, because
>> > for the controller at 72V the motor is connected to -72
>> > which can cause a polarised device in the controller to
>> > fail.
>> >
>> > - Dependent on the controller design, the freewheel diode
>> > may be conducting continuously without throttle, sending
>> > full 72V and high current to the motor, with throttle
>> > you will be switched to 144V but the continuous current
>> > may be overloading the freewheel diode(s).
>> >
>> > - If controller goes in current limit, the voltage on
>> > the motor can easily drop below 72V, so the controller
>> > sees more than 72V.
>> >
>> > - Probably there are other issues that depend on the
>> > design of the controller, so only inspection of it
>> > can tell you if this idea is even feasible.
>> >
>> > You do have a big chance of blowing up your controller,
>> > it is on you if you want to test it or use a controller
>> > fit for the job.
>> >
>> > Success,
>> >
>> > Cor van de Water
>> > Systems Architect
>> > Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Private: http://www.cvandewater.com
>> > Skype: cor_van_de_water IM: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > Tel: +1 408 542 5225 VoIP: +31 20 3987567 FWD# 25925
>> > Fax: +1 408 731 3675 eFAX: +31-87-784-1130
>> > Proxim Wireless Networks eFAX: +1-610-423-5743
>> > Take your network further http://www.proxim.com
>> >
>> >
>> > -----Original Message-----
>> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> > Behalf Of damon henry
>> > Sent: Friday, October 27, 2006 12:55 PM
>> > To: [email protected]
>> > Subject: RE: 2X Alltrax = Curtis ?
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >>I'd consider a 144V pack and a single 7245. Arrange the pack as 2 72V
>> >>strings and parallel them at lower speeds so the controller runs of
>> the
>> >>72V pack and all batteries are discharged evenly. Above some speed,
>> >>switch the packs in series and leave the controller connected across
>> >>only the top 72V segment. This allows the controller to vary voltage
>> to
>> >>the motor between 72V and 144V.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Wow, this is a cool idea. I have been wanting to try a higher voltage
> on my
>> >
>> > motorcycle. Since my controller is good for 24 - 48 volts, I could
>> use
> this
>> >
>> > techique and try up to 96 volts without buying a new controller.
>> >
>> > Damon
>> >
>> > _________________________________________________________________
>> > Find a local pizza place, music store, museum and more...then map the
> best
>> > route! http://local.live.com?FORM=MGA001
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
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I've got a nominal 104 volt pack ( 13 x 8 volts) and I'm using the ceramic
heater core from KTA.
It's listed in the KTA catalog as being rated for 108 to 192 volts. My
testing ( with the heater core in the car, but using an external DC source)
shows that it puts out 1740 watts at 120V, 1470 watts at 110V. and 1300
watts at 104 volts. This is at the optimum blower setting for each voltage.
As someone earlier said, if you run it at too low OR too high a blower
speed, you get less power out of it.
So, even at 104 volts, I expect 1300 watts will be enough to keep the
windshield clear and provide at least a little warmth.
Phil
From: canev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [email protected]
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: brrr cold zero F today
Date: Sat, 28 Oct 2006 08:56:20 -0700
120 volts in the minimum voltage for off the shelf ceramic's. We have a
special 36 - 96 volt unit that also works very well at 120 volts. I have
found over the years that the 120 volt heaters just don't put out very much
unless they are used at 144 volts or higher.
_________________________________________________________________
Get FREE company branded e-mail accounts and business Web site from
Microsoft Office Live
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Please email me about this.
BTW, Passing a magnetic material thru a strong magnetic field requires
work. But it is a great way of making an air conditioner.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
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Anyone done a hydraulic link?
Hydraulic hoses make motor placement unrestricted.
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 10:54 pm, Bruce wrote:
What EV car conversions use something other than the traditional
adapter
plate and coupling?
Here are three to start the list:
Pro EV Electric Imp Subaru, direct drive to IRS differentials in
front and
rear:
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/464
Gone Postal, conventional front drive plus two motor chain drive in
rear:
http://www.suckamps.com/index.php?page=life_of_the_postal_van
Bill Bruder's Wind Wagon, air propeller drive (not a conversion but
very
cool!):
http://www.austinev.org/evalbum/309.html
Osmo S wrote:
I think it´s important (and fun) to try to find fresh approaches ...
and to questionize common solutions, even if it doesn´t always
lead to anything useful.
www.GlobalBoiling.com for daily updated facts about hurricanes,
globalwarming and the melting poles.
www.ElectricQuakes.com daily solar and earthquake data.
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jerryd wrote:
...
By using 2 seperate systems, you have a way
to get home if one of them die. I like the 72 vdc batt pack,
say T145's for small cars like a Geo, Karmen Ghia, 2 strings
of T105's/ T-125 for a larger EV. A battery pack like this
can easily handle the short time max amps is needed as it is
a short time and with current multiplication, really doesn't
need more than about 300 amps from the battery pack to do
this, so no need of a peak AGM pack.
2 Alltrax 7245 and 2 A89 motors cost 25% less,
puts out more power than a Curtis 1231 and a 8" ADC so a
very viable choice. 2 A89's also have more com area, more
surface to disipate heat so not only put out more power, but
longer too at a lower cost.
Hmmm... Take two motors (at least one double shaft), and use a coupler
to inline them:
An I2 EV motor?
Or, for modern cars (aka short nose), mount them top/bottom on a
mounting plate, and use a belt/chain drive to transmit power from the
top output shaft to the bottom output shaft, which goes to the tranny (I
believe some Porsche has this already). Or just do a side-by-side
arrangement using a belt/chain in a triangle arrangement.
I like the last one, since the output shaft is merely a short one in a
mountable bearing(s) with a pulley/spocket on it. This can relieve many
of the "adapting" difficulties, since you can position this
independently of the mounting plate. Makes room for a bat box mounted
nice and low (at least for RWD cars):
| |
|#|+---------+
=|#|| Motor |
|#|+---------+
-------+| | +-----------+
||#| | |
Tranny ||#|= | Bat Box |
||#| | |
-------+| | +-----------+
A V2 EV motor?
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I had one and it worked for a Solectria Force 3.3 kW charger. I did not try
it on the S-10 because it pulls 6.6 kW and the Avcon is 5.0 kW
Don
In a message dated 10/27/2006 3:01:45 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Has your avcon adapter worked ever?
Does it have the diode/resistor mounted inside to activate the charger?
Mike
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], JS <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> My first post:
>
> I visited 5 AVCON chargers, and was able to charge successfully
> from 3. The other two spoke "Charge time exceeded", and shut down
after
> 1 minute.
> They would reset for another minute by pushing the charge button.
>
> My charger is a ZIVAN NG3.
>
> 1. What is the cause?
>
> 2. What is the cure?
>
> John in Sylmar, CA 1981 Electrica Jet conversion with the AVCON
adapter box.
>
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